[opensuse] KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

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Bob S

4 Sep 2009 4 Sep '09

05:53

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue. If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut. I vote NO it was not broken. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Basil Chupin

4 Sep 4 Sep

06:00

Bob S wrote:

...

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

+1 BC -- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

06:13

Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:53:03 schrieb Bob S:

...

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

Are you like 12 years old or something? If you were not and were really interested in that topic you would need to have a look at the code, e.g. kicker's and check whether it was broken, i.e. fixing one thing would brake another, just like in Windows or not. But I guess you are just interested in polemics rather than facts. Especially since you forget to mention half of what I wrote: "Broken for who? KDE3 was broken by design and hence not fixable in many areas, especially the desktop and panel. Those that spend their free time on the software you use for free decided they did not want to work on such bad code anymore but have a proper basis for the future." But hey, who needs developers if one has that many users that care so much about KDE3 that they even start a fork... Thanks for confirmation. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mukul Singh

06:18

Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:53:03 schrieb Bob S:

...
Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

Are you like 12 years old or something? If you were not and were really interested in that topic you would need to have a look at the code, e.g. kicker's and check whether it was broken, i.e. fixing one thing would brake another, just like in Windows or not. But I guess you are just interested in polemics rather than facts. Especially since you forget to mention half of what I wrote:

"Broken for who? KDE3 was broken by design and hence not fixable in many areas, especially the desktop and panel. Those that spend their free time on the software you use for free decided they did not want to work on such bad code anymore but have a proper basis for the future."

But hey, who needs developers if one has that many users that care so much about KDE3 that they even start a fork...

Thanks for confirmation.

Looks like a classic case of developer vs user. Developer looks at the code and says - hey, I am not going to touch this mess. The user, otoh, thinks, huh what is he on about? It works well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

06:20

Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:53:03 schrieb Bob S:

...
Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

Are you like 12 years old or something?

Yes, I's only 11 1/2 - but older than you, so nyaah! BC -- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

06:35

Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 08:20:31 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

Sven Burmeister wrote:

...
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:53:03 schrieb Bob S:

...
Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

Are you like 12 years old or something?

Yes, I's only 11 1/2 - but older than you, so nyaah!

Of course you skipped/snipped the facts part again. But who cares about those. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

06:43

Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 08:20:31 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...
Sven Burmeister wrote:

...
Am Freitag, 4. September 2009 07:53:03 schrieb Bob S:

...
Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

Are you like 12 years old or something?

Yes, I's only 11 1/2 - but older than you, so nyaah!

Of course you skipped/snipped the facts part again. But who cares about those.

Yeah, who really cares.

...

Sven

BC -- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John E. Perry

06:29

Bob S wrote:

...

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

I vote "of _course_ it was broken". Any non-trivial software is broken to some degree, in some places. Now, for a more realistic argument; kde up through 3 was designed in the earliest days of object-oriented programming, and its design shows the primitive understanding of its day (so I understand from reading this and other fora; I'm not a kde developer. Was it even designed according to object-oriented principles?). Notwithstanding Bob S's sneer, a program that is designed well from the start will never need rewriting unless it becomes obsolete. kde3 did not become obsolete: it became unmanageable, as you said. kde was maybe designed to the best standards of its day, but if so, those standards were not very good. Would any of the kde developers comment on the quality or the standards of the original design? I imagine that, like most large projects, no matter how good the originators were, their successors were less good, or maybe just different. Either would corrupt an otherwise good system. Even a very bad program can look good to end users (speaking from experience here) with enough palliatives and veneer to cover up the faults, and enough disabled code to keep it from hitting something unfortunate and crashing. I've done things like this myself; there's just not enough time in our lives to go back and redo everything right. Could kde people comment on how much kde suffered from palliatives, veneer, and disabled code? Now, I don't know personally about the brokenness of kde; I can only listen to the people who really know it. If they couldn't bear to struggle through any more of covering up mistakes, jumping around dead code, and maybe even trying to thread their way through antique spaghetti code, they obviously believed it was broken. I -- and you -- have no right to second-guess them without putting in our oar and contributing in a _substantive_ manner. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

11:03

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 01:53 -0400, Bob S wrote:

...

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue. If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut. I vote NO it was not broken.

Who cares; please don't bomb my INBOX with this nonsense. Go use Gentoo. It is sad; openSUSE is a fabulous distro I use all day at work and then at home. But the signal-noise ratio, and just the crank factor, of this list is unbelievable. I leave for awhile because it is just a waste of time - and every time I come back it is just the same. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen

13:14

...

It is sad; openSUSE is a fabulous distro I use all day at work and then at home. But the signal-noise ratio, and just the crank factor, of this list is unbelievable. I leave for awhile because it is just a waste of time - and every time I come back it is just the same.

You should see the mess that is the Ubuntu list. I am actually using that distro now, but I stay subscribed here (and at Fedora and Debian) because of the list quality. Although I agree that there is too much bickering and childplay on this list, it is _not_ one of the worst out there. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

13:27

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 16:14 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

...
It is sad; openSUSE is a fabulous distro I use all day at work and then at home. But the signal-noise ratio, and just the crank factor, of this list is unbelievable. I leave for awhile because it is just a waste of time - and every time I come back it is just the same. You should see the mess that is the Ubuntu list. I am actually using that distro now, but I stay subscribed here (and at Fedora and Debian) because of the list quality. Although I agree that there is too much bickering and childplay on this list, it is _not_ one of the worst out there.

A scary thought. I've been a UNIX admin for 16 years and used LINUX since 0.99a - but almost exclusively I've stuck to upstream [project] lists. Looking at these [downstream?] lists I wonder if the distributions wouldn't be better of without them. Any end user who comes here would get a pretty bad taste of the community - which is not at all represented by the kind of pointless negative haranguing that dominates this list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen

14:39

2009/9/4 Adam Tauno Williams :

...

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 16:14 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...
...
It is sad; openSUSE is a fabulous distro I use all day at work and then at home. But the signal-noise ratio, and just the crank factor, of this list is unbelievable. I leave for awhile because it is just a waste of time - and every time I come back it is just the same. You should see the mess that is the Ubuntu list. I am actually using that distro now, but I stay subscribed here (and at Fedora and Debian) because of the list quality. Although I agree that there is too much bickering and childplay on this list, it is _not_ one of the worst out there.

A scary thought. I've been a UNIX admin for 16 years and used LINUX since 0.99a - but almost exclusively I've stuck to upstream [project] lists. Looking at these [downstream?] lists I wonder if the distributions wouldn't be better of without them. Any end user who comes here would get a pretty bad taste of the community - which is not at all represented by the kind of pointless negative haranguing that dominates this list.

‎That depends on who the end user is. I have a feeling that the typical end user is no longer a seasoned Unix admin, rather maybe a high-school age or younger kid. These kids find the slack environment on these lists inviting and comfortable. You and I hate it, but we are not typical users anymore. Linux adoption is spreading fast. We are seeing new groups of users and nobody really knows what to do with them. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

16:01

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:27:44 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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Any end user who comes here would get a pretty bad taste of the community - which is not at all represented by the kind of pointless negative haranguing that dominates this list.

I think probably a better representation of the user community can be found in the openSUSE forums (http://forums.opensuse.org - also available via NNTP). I think it is unfair and unfortunate that a very small number of people have set such a negative tone for this list. I think in general, this list is a valuable resource for users (and what I'm saying here should NOT in any way be construed as otherwise), but I agree with Adam's statement above and feel that something needs to be done to address those issues he's identified. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen

17:05

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

...

I think it is unfair and unfortunate that a very small number of people have set such a negative tone for this list. I think in general, this list is a valuable resource for users (and what I'm saying here should NOT in any way be construed as otherwise), but I agree with Adam's statement above and feel that something needs to be done to address those issues he's identified.

Something being "politely ask users to use a professional form when writing to the list". Any more than that would have to include enforcement, which will likely do more harm than good. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

17:22

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:05:53 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

...
I think it is unfair and unfortunate that a very small number of people have set such a negative tone for this list. I think in general, this list is a valuable resource for users (and what I'm saying here should NOT in any way be construed as otherwise), but I agree with Adam's statement above and feel that something needs to be done to address those issues he's identified.

Something being "politely ask users to use a professional form when writing to the list". Any more than that would have to include enforcement, which will likely do more harm than good.

Unfortunately, some individuals do not respond well to even a politely worded request to act professionally. At that point, some enforcement action is generally prudent for the benefit of the community. Of course a "carrot" approach is generally better than a "stick" approach, but sometimes a stick is what's necessary. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

5 Sep 5 Sep

02:04

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:22:16 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:05:53 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...
...
I think it is unfair and unfortunate that a very small number of people have set such a negative tone for this list. I think in general, this list is a valuable resource for users (and what I'm saying here should NOT in any way be construed as otherwise), but I agree with Adam's statement above and feel that something needs to be done to address those issues he's identified.

Something being "politely ask users to use a professional form when writing to the list". Any more than that would have to include enforcement, which will likely do more harm than good.

Unfortunately, some individuals do not respond well to even a politely worded request to act professionally. At that point, some enforcement action is generally prudent for the benefit of the community. Of course a "carrot" approach is generally better than a "stick" approach, but sometimes a stick is what's necessary.

And apparently my comments here were taken as being directed at someone on just one side of the discussion. Let me be clear: EVERYONE needs to calm down and stop with the name calling, no matter what side of the discussion we're on. It doesn't do our community any good to have people swearing at each other and making the discussion personal. It's not good for us as a community, and it certainly doesn't look good to those looking to join. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

4 Sep 4 Sep

17:28

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 20:05 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

...
I think it is unfair and unfortunate that a very small number of people have set such a negative tone for this list. I think in general, this list is a valuable resource for users (and what I'm saying here should NOT in any way be construed as otherwise), but I agree with Adam's statement above and feel that something needs to be done to address those issues he's identified. Something being "politely ask users to use a professional form when writing to the list".

That has consistently failed.

...

Any more than that would have to include enforcement, which will likely do more harm than good.

I have no problem with "enforcement"; I'm on numerous 'enforced' lists and they all are more constructive than here. I've never seen enforcement do any harm. Anyway I'm probably signing off again, but it would be nice if someone could figure something out. Maybe create an opensuse-kde list for people who prefer-to-use-but-also-hate-KDE-yet-somehow-blame-openSUSE [!?!?!?!?, yea, it makes no sense]. Or maybe an opensuse-gnome list where GNOME uses can seek refuge and have civil discussions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael Skiba

17:46

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

Am Freitag 04 September 2009 19:28:03 schrieb Adam Tauno Williams:

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Or maybe an opensuse-gnome list where GNOME uses can seek refuge and have civil discussions.

That list actually exists ... ;) Regards, Michael

Adam Tauno Williams

18:39

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 19:46 +0200, Michael Skiba wrote:

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Am Freitag 04 September 2009 19:28:03 schrieb Adam Tauno Williams:

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Or maybe an opensuse-gnome list where GNOME uses can seek refuge and have civil discussions. That list actually exists ... ;)

Doh! http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists Yep, there it is. Subscribed now. I think we should incessantly refer the KDE-lover-haters over to - "Discussion about KDE in the openSUSE distribution". Maybe that would work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

20:07

New subject: [opensuse] Re: KDE3 broken? Yes or No Let's vote

On Friday 04 September 2009 13:39:46 Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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I think we should incessantly refer the KDE-lover-haters over to - "Discussion about KDE in the openSUSE distribution". Maybe that would work.

I think the openSUSE KDE team prefers the non-constructive communication over here, thank you. ;) How about an openSUSE-kde3 for those that hate KDE 4 to collaborate on how best to keep KDE 3 working for them in openSUSE? Really, they seem to have quite a bit of energy, and from a bug/loc perspective KDE 3 is in pretty good shape so they may be able to provide good packages for oS 11.2+. IMO, openSUSE-kde is largely focused on the OBS and getting everything working well for oS 11.2, at least right now. All that said, if your problem/issue is a KDE one openSUSE-kde is probably a better list than plain openSUSE. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

Heinz Diehl

13:33

At Fri, 04 Sep 2009 07:03:15 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

...

It is sad; openSUSE is a fabulous distro I use all day at work and then at home. But the signal-noise ratio, and just the crank factor, of this list is unbelievable. I leave for awhile because it is just a waste of time - and every time I come back it is just the same.

Thank you for pointing this out, just to second that! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

23:50

On Friday 04 September 2009 12:53:03 am Bob S wrote:

...

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

Bob S

KDE3 Works PERFECT for me still. I have it install right along side kde 4.3.1. Matter of fact, I just updated it yesterday. If I had stayed with kde3 until now, I would have the time it is taken to deal with 125 bug reports back. KDE3 wasn't broken. Any suggestion of that is the same as someone trying to tell you that KDE 4.04 was ready to be a desktop when it was push out in alpha state as the desktop for openSuSE 11.0. Consider your sources carefully. It like people watching Fox New and believing they are getting "news"... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen

5 Sep 5 Sep

10:19

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KDE3 Works PERFECT for me still. I have it install right along side kde 4.3.1. Matter of fact, I just updated it yesterday. If I had stayed with kde3 until now, I would have the time it is taken to deal with 125 bug reports back.

I have over 1000 bugs. I don't want that time back. That is time that _you_ donated to the community to make KDE 4 better. Be proud of it, the whole KDE community appreciates it.

...

KDE3 wasn't broken. Any suggestion of that is the same as someone trying to tell you that KDE 4.04 was ready to be a desktop when it was push out in alpha state as the desktop for openSuSE 11.0. Consider your sources carefully. It like people watching Fox New and believing they are getting "news"...

KDE 3 was very usable, therefore anyone who uses it feels that it was not broken. However, the codebase behind it was unmanageable. Bugfixes and new features were becoming impossible to perform. Those who would argue "then leave it as it is" can argue that: the KDE development community did in fact leave it is at is, and the result is KDE 3.5.10. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett

23:45

On Saturday 05 September 2009 06:19, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

...
KDE3 Works PERFECT for me still. I have it install right along side kde 4.3.1. Matter of fact, I just updated it yesterday. If I had stayed with kde3 until now, I would have the time it is taken to deal with 125 bug reports back.

I have over 1000 bugs. I don't want that time back. That is time that _you_ donated to the community to make KDE 4 better. Be proud of it, the whole KDE community appreciates it.

...
KDE3 wasn't broken. Any suggestion of that is the same as someone trying to tell you that KDE 4.04 was ready to be a desktop when it was push out in alpha state as the desktop for openSuSE 11.0. Consider your sources carefully. It like people watching Fox New and believing they are getting "news"...

KDE 3 was very usable, therefore anyone who uses it feels that it was not broken. However, the codebase behind it was unmanageable. Bugfixes and new features were becoming impossible to perform. Those who would argue "then leave it as it is" can argue that: the KDE development community did in fact leave it is at is, and the result is KDE 3.5.10.

Is is going to be possible to run 3.5.10 under SuSE 11.2? If so, what must be done to do it? Can whatever version of KDE 4.x.x that comes out then be an after-install choice, so that these may be compared? --doug

...

-- Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il

Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen

6 Sep 6 Sep

19:52

...

Is is going to be possible to run 3.5.10 under SuSE 11.2? If so, what must be done to do it? Can whatever version of KDE 4.x.x that comes out then be an after-install choice, so that these may be compared?

I am not a Suse dev, but I do not think that KDE 3.5.10 will be very viable in 11.2 from what I've read. That is quite why I ask current KDE 3 users to triage KDE 4 and report problems: someday soon KDE 3 will no longer be an option. See my threads on this list on the subject. And please, let me know what issues you have with KDE 4 so that I can get them fixed! Thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

5 Sep 5 Sep

11:04

Am Samstag, 5. September 2009 01:50:45 schrieb David C. Rankin:

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KDE3 wasn't broken. Any suggestion of that is the same as someone trying to tell you that KDE 4.04 was ready to be a desktop when it was push out in alpha state as the desktop for openSuSE 11.0.

You keep forgetting that KDE3 was default in 11.0 if one chose KDE and hence KDE4.0.x was not pushed but just offered. If everything offered was pushed on you, then openSUSE pushes every rpm available on the DVD. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JB2

6 Sep 6 Sep

22:53

On 04 September 09, Bob S wrote:

...

Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

KDE3 is *NOT* broken. I also vote NO. -- Those who see no difference between people legally immigrating to the US and people who come here illegally must likewise see no difference between consensual sex and rape. Read The Patriot -- It's Right. It's Free. http://patriotpost.us/subscribe.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen

7 Sep 7 Sep

05:44

...

KDE3 is *NOT* broken. I also vote NO.

Not for users. That is why you can keep using it. The KDE 3 UI is probably the best UI of any computer desktop ever. However, if you would like to see KDE 3 developer further, take a look at the codebase and then tell me that it is not broken. The UI is fine, but the codebase is out of control. There are too many patches and clever hacks to be further maintainable. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

10:38

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

...
KDE3 is *NOT* broken. I also vote NO.

Not for users. That is why you can keep using it. The KDE 3 UI is probably the best UI of any computer desktop ever.

However, if you would like to see KDE 3 developer further, take a look at the codebase and then tell me that it is not broken. The UI is fine, but the codebase is out of control. There are too many patches and clever hacks to be further maintainable.

The KDE3 code base is almost certainly at the end of life cycle. The Desktop metaphor on which it was built almost certainly not. This said, when working in a User Support role I originally found it surprising the number of people who real problems with this Desktop metaphor. There is now a general move to turn that Desktop metaphor into what is effectively an arcade game (which good if you like arcade games), but I am very glad that I am not going to be supporting normal users with this. I think the latter approach is ultimately an evolutionary dead end. Would it not be preferably to be able to talk to the computer to get to do what you wanted it to do? The main barrier to the adoption of natural language interfaces in the past was the need for verbose and accurate keyboard input, and the 'fuzzy' nature of normal human language usage. Most of the technologies to process such input have existed for some time, all that was really required was cheap, accurate and efficient audio processing to create the input. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkqk4q0ACgkQasN0sSnLmgKn0wCgsSeFkTY/P83p0iVWT4TujBoJ OJAAn0LnEihMuENtVc+TwnDwcrfMb7mo =cZU2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

15:38

JB2 wrote:

...

On 04 September 09, Bob S wrote:

...
Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

KDE3 is *NOT* broken. I also vote NO.

It works fine for me too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

15:47

* James Knott [09-07-09 11:39]:

...

It works fine for me too.

You miss the entire point. It *is* broken from a developmental standpoint and that is why it is not longer being developed. Programmers and/or developers cannot/will not/don't want to work with it, ie: it *is* broken. It will go the way of my perfectly good Ford Model "A" starter, an iron rod with two 90 degree bends, but of little/no use .... -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson

16:32

On Monday 07 September 2009 17:47:46 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* James Knott [09-07-09 11:39]:

...
It works fine for me too.

You miss the entire point. It *is* broken from a developmental standpoint and that is why it is not longer being developed. Programmers and/or developers cannot/will not/don't want to work with it, ie: it *is* broken. It will go the way of my perfectly good Ford Model "A" starter, an iron rod with two 90 degree bends, but of little/no use ....

It's just obsolete. The problem is that while KDE 3 works as well as ever will in 11.1, it doesn't exist in a static environment, and pretty soon will start to break as its distro component foundations change beneath it. We (the opensuse-kde team) are still open to training up people who want to do the upkeep needed to keep things building and working but so far we haven't had a serious offer. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com

8 Sep 8 Sep

08:26

On Monday 07 September 2009 05:38:21 am James Knott wrote:

...

JB2 wrote:

...
On 04 September 09, Bob S wrote:

...
Don't let me down now here folks. Sven Burmeister says that KDE3 was broken. Regardless of whether you use KDE3 or KDE4, let's vote on the issue.

If I am wrong I will forever keep my mouth shut.

I vote NO it was not broken.

KDE3 is *NOT* broken. I also vote NO.

It works fine for me too.

I use 11.1 in kde3 and have been successful installing 11.2 with gnome. every effort i have made with kde4 failed miserably within the first hour when i was lucky enough to complete an install, so i simply gave up on it. Initially i was thrilled with the " start from scratch" approach, alas, there was a very stupid decision taken at the very beginning: someone or some group decided that they were going to shove it down our throats the way they felt was the correct way, with the features that they decided would be good for us, on a time schedule that had nothing to do with quality control, because he/she/it/ they KNEW BEST.... if i wanted that, i would have windows. (xp and i hear 7 are quite stable...) as it stands, i will wait until something around kde 4.5 as the brave new numbering system goes; by then it should stop being a case of too much lipstick on a pig and some of the "from scratch" effort would have actually been spent on functionality... d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

9 Sep 9 Sep

01:58

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 03:26:03 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

...

i will wait until something around kde 4.5

You can try earlier with 11.2 release :) The 4.3 is for a while my default desktop and recently since M6 11.2 is daily used. The problems are: - nvidia has to be compiled as 11.2 changes too often to have 1-click- but now in 11.2 I need kernel-syms package instead of kernel-sources, which is much smaller to install and update - Packman xine, for multimedia has to be compiled - there is no installable version until 11.2 is released - I'm better of without much desktop effects as 22" screen and Nvidia FX5200 is not the best combination to have them running One problem that has nothing to do with hardware is that there is so much new things that is hard to follow. Although my desktop looks now like 3.5 + some simple desktop effects, there is so much more left to learn. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

02:06

* Rajko M. [09-08-09 21:59]:

...

The problems are: ... - Packman xine, for multimedia has to be compiled - there is no installable version until 11.2 is released

I am using vlc from http://download.videolan.org/pub/vlc/SuSE/11.2/ no problems with anything... -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

02:27

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 21:06:21 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Rajko M. [09-08-09 21:59]:

...
The problems are:

...

...
- Packman xine, for multimedia has to be compiled - there is no installable version until 11.2 is released

I am using vlc from http://download.videolan.org/pub/vlc/SuSE/11.2/ no problems with anything...

I just installed it and it works somehow. I'll see after zypper dup finish and reboot. I know that I can relogin which will restart X, but once I get new kernel I have to reboot anyway. The problem is that there is no icons in a menu, and command line call to vlc ends with few (error?) messages: VLC media player 1.0.1 Goldeneye [0x80ec558] main interface error: option x11-display does not exist [0x804f720] main libvlc: Running vlc with the default interface. Use 'cvlc' to use vlc without interface. [0x80e7700] main interface error: option x11-display does not exist [0x8370a60] main input error: ES_OUT_RESET_PCR called [0x834d018] fb video output error: cannot get terminal mode (Invalid argument) The player starts, but the video is just bunch of text characters instead of graphic. It looks like broken terminal. I looked in 'vlc --help' but nothing to set 'x11-display'. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

02:59

* Rajko M. [09-08-09 22:30]:

...

The player starts, but the video is just bunch of text characters instead of graphic. It looks like broken terminal.

I looked in 'vlc --help' but nothing to set 'x11-display'.

I have: 22:59 wahoo:~ > rpm -qa |grep vlc vlc-mozillaplugin-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 libvlccore2-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 libvlc2-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-noX-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-qt-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-gnome-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-aout-pulse-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

8 Sep 8 Sep

23:46

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 21:59:56 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Rajko M. [09-08-09 22:30]:

...
The player starts, but the video is just bunch of text characters instead of graphic. It looks like broken terminal.

I looked in 'vlc --help' but nothing to set 'x11-display'.

I have:

22:59 wahoo:~ > rpm -qa |grep vlc vlc-mozillaplugin-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 libvlccore2-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 libvlc2-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-noX-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-qt-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-gnome-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64 vlc-aout-pulse-1.0.1-2.26.x86_64

Further test of vlc after I find where M7 lost my keyboard and mouse :) Actually why KDE is looking for hal that doesn't run. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson

9 Sep 9 Sep

09:22

On Wednesday 09 September 2009 01:46:16 Rajko M. wrote:

...

Further test of vlc after I find where M7 lost my keyboard and mouse :) Actually why KDE is looking for hal that doesn't run.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=537452 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

03:19

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Rajko M. [09-08-09 21:59]:

...
The problems are:

...

...
- Packman xine, for multimedia has to be compiled - there is no installable version until 11.2 is released

I am using vlc from http://download.videolan.org/pub/vlc/SuSE/11.2/ no problems with anything...

Patrick, I use kaffeine/xine to: * watch TV using a DVB card * record TV programs * watch DVDs * watch a DVD when it is sitting in a Directory on the HD My main need though is to watch TV. I have looked at vlc some weeks ago but I cannot see how I can watch TV with it. Does vlc provide this feature and if it does what may I be doing wrong not to be able to watch TV. I have looked at the vlc FAQ etc but probably looked in all the wrong places because I cannot see the answer to my "problem". Any hints? BC -- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

03:13

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 03:26:03 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

...
i will wait until something around kde 4.5

You can try earlier with 11.2 release :)

The 4.3 is for a while my default desktop and recently since M6 11.2 is daily used.

The problems are:

...

- I'm better of without much desktop effects as 22" screen and Nvidia FX5200 is not the best combination to have them running

Rajko, A while back there was some discussion about the FX5200 not working with a digital cable connexion under 11.1 but does work with an analogue cable. My wife's computer has an FX5200 card and I had to go analogue for the monitor (a ViewSonic) to work. If I recall someone suggested a workaround to make the digital connexion work, I tried it at the time (under a time constraint - and threats! - to get computer back on line :-) ) and cannot remember what the workaround was. Do you remember anything about this? Perhaps the problem has now been solved with latest nVidia driver, or some other 'fix' in 11.1. Can you shed any light on this? Thanks. BC -- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

8 Sep 8 Sep

23:53

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 22:13:07 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Rajko M. wrote:

...
On Tuesday 08 September 2009 03:26:03 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

...
i will wait until something around kde 4.5

You can try earlier with 11.2 release :)

The 4.3 is for a while my default desktop and recently since M6 11.2 is daily used.

The problems are:

- I'm better of without much desktop effects as 22" screen and Nvidia FX5200 is not the best combination to have them running

Rajko,

A while back there was some discussion about the FX5200 not working with a digital cable connexion under 11.1 but does work with an analogue cable.

My wife's computer has an FX5200 card and I had to go analogue for the monitor (a ViewSonic) to work.

If I recall someone suggested a workaround to make the digital connexion work, I tried it at the time (under a time constraint - and threats! - to get computer back on line :-) ) and cannot remember what the workaround was.

Do you remember anything about this? Perhaps the problem has now been solved with latest nVidia driver, or some other 'fix' in 11.1. Can you shed any light on this? Thanks.

BC

This card has double analogue output, so I have no problems with digital output. There are (most) probably xorg.conf options to enable DVI and secret is hidden in nvidia driver README. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com

9 Sep 9 Sep

07:34

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 03:58:14 pm Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 03:26:03 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

...
i will wait until something around kde 4.5

You can try earlier with 11.2 release :)

The 4.3 is for a while my default desktop and recently since M6 11.2 is daily used.

The problems are: - nvidia has to be compiled as 11.2 changes too often to have 1-click- but now in 11.2 I need kernel-syms package instead of kernel-sources, which is much smaller to install and update - Packman xine, for multimedia has to be compiled - there is no installable version until 11.2 is released - I'm better of without much desktop effects as 22" screen and Nvidia FX5200 is not the best combination to have them running

One problem that has nothing to do with hardware is that there is so much new things that is hard to follow. Although my desktop looks now like 3.5 + some simple desktop effects, there is so much more left to learn.

-- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/

Rajko, the last time i tried 11.2 and kde4 i did get an install, BUT, when i tried to "register" and get the repo updates, I got into an endless loop. clearly, that could not be my fault, i still had not used 11.2, I had simply clicked on the "get updates" button during the install, a thing we all do on a new install!!! I(YES< i HAD filled the reg form correctly, but i always only allow hardare info feedback, *not* the *extra* shtuff!).. filed a bug report and got a response much like said endless loop, about 3 weeks later i received an email presumably from bugzilla, i clicked on the link, got to my bug, alas, there was *nothing new* there...bugzilla can still be quite frustrating to plain folx who think simply... honestly, it is going to take a lot of praise posts before i try kde4 again. As I said in my earlier post, 11.2 and gnome fired right up, but frankly i could not find anything there that my old 10.3 /kde3 ould not do. i am not a latest and greatest kind of a guy, but i will not blindly refuse to see something new that really works. kde4 has a long way to go before it fits that description, so i will wait. i have no need for added frustrations into my daily routine... d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (20)

Adam Tauno Williams
Basil Chupin
Bob S
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
David C. Rankin
Dotan Cohen
Doug McGarrett
G T Smith
Heinz Diehl
James Knott
JB2
Jim Henderson
John E. Perry
kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com
Michael Skiba
Mukul Singh
Patrick Shanahan
Rajko M.
Sven Burmeister
Will Stephenson