[opensuse] KMail - First Impressions
Well, not exactly first ... I've been using it for more than a week now. It's completely replaced Thunderbird for me on my Linux machines. (And that's saying a lot, because I've been an enthusiastic Thunderbird user on Windows and Linux for years.) I've been told that KMail will even be available for Windows eventually, although it's apparently not a high priority for KDE right now. Kmail just does things more intuitively, or does them better. Its message editor doesn't insert or remove newlines at random. It's easier to create message filters. Folders can be individually set up to allow HTML and to download images, where appropriate. Or not. It doesn't tell me every day that the weather report from my local TV station is junk, despite my telling it every day that it's not junk. I could list another few dozen examples, but I'll keep this message short. If you've ever had to learn to live with *any* annoying problems with your email client, give KDE4 KMail a try. I'm betting you'll become a devoted user in no time at all. Community support is great, too. While making the transition from Thunderbird, I've asked a few questions on the KDE mailing list. (There were some option settings that I knew had to be available, but I wasn't sure where to look for them.) When I've done that, I've never waited more than 10 minutes for a helpful answer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Does it finally support composing HTML emails ? On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:57:21 am Jerry Houston wrote:
Well, not exactly first ... I've been using it for more than a week now. It's completely replaced Thunderbird for me on my Linux machines. (And that's saying a lot, because I've been an enthusiastic Thunderbird user on Windows and Linux for years.)
I've been told that KMail will even be available for Windows eventually, although it's apparently not a high priority for KDE right now.
Kmail just does things more intuitively, or does them better. Its message editor doesn't insert or remove newlines at random. It's easier to create message filters. Folders can be individually set up to allow HTML and to download images, where appropriate. Or not. It doesn't tell me every day that the weather report from my local TV station is junk, despite my telling it every day that it's not junk.
I could list another few dozen examples, but I'll keep this message short. If you've ever had to learn to live with *any* annoying problems with your email client, give KDE4 KMail a try. I'm betting you'll become a devoted user in no time at all.
Community support is great, too. While making the transition from Thunderbird, I've asked a few questions on the KDE mailing list. (There were some option settings that I knew had to be available, but I wasn't sure where to look for them.) When I've done that, I've never waited more than 10 minutes for a helpful answer.
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On Friday 14 November 2008 04:07, Diego Tognola wrote:
Does it finally support composing HTML emails ?
Yes, if you don't expect much... It does in version 1.9, anyway. I forget when it first appeared. I think the KMail developers aren't too keen on it and did a pretty half-hearted job.
...
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 6:07 AM, Diego Tognola
Does it finally support composing HTML emails ?
Why the hell a hard core linux user will need HTML emails? Can't you use KWrite and export as pdf. Slow day, just kidding :) Cheers -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 14 November 2008 04:07:47 am Diego Tognola wrote:
Does it finally support composing HTML emails ?
Yes - It does support some HMTL, like colors and fonts. Don't get your hopes up in trying to compose a nice-looking picture-laden HTML email. In fact, I just tried sending an HTML email to the list using KMail and got denied...
Hi, this is the mlmmj program managing the mailinglist
opensuse@opensuse.org
I'm sorry to inform you that your message could not be delivered to the list. Your mail was rejected because it matched a rule set up by the list administrator.
This list does not allow:
* HTML mails
--- below this line the first 100 lines of the denied message --->
<snip>
<html><head><meta name="qrichtext" content="1" /></head><body style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Monospace"> <p>On Friday 14 November 2008 04:07:47 am Diego Tognola wrote:</p> <p>> Does it finally support composing HTML emails ?</p> <p></p> <p>Not really.</p> <p></p> <p>This email is sent in HTML format but I wouldn't be able to insert images inline or anything like that.</p> <p></p> <p>I can do some formatting like <span style="font-style:italic">writing
-- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Sigh, my typical use case is not even composing a new email, but just to reply to a HTML formatted email. It somehow just is embarrassing to explain to Windoze-based business partners that my replies looks so scrambled because I am using Linux ;-/ On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 08:05:17 am Kai Ponte wrote:
On Friday 14 November 2008 04:07:47 am Diego Tognola wrote:
Does it finally support composing HTML emails ?
Yes - It does support some HMTL, like colors and fonts. Don't get your hopes up in trying to compose a nice-looking picture-laden HTML email.
In fact, I just tried sending an HTML email to the list using KMail and got denied...
Hi, this is the mlmmj program managing the mailinglist
opensuse@opensuse.org
I'm sorry to inform you that your message could not be delivered to the list. Your mail was rejected because it matched a rule set up by the list administrator.
This list does not allow:
* HTML mails
--- below this line the first 100 lines of the denied message --->
<snip>
<html><head><meta name="qrichtext" content="1" /></head><body style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Monospace"> <p>On Friday 14 November 2008 04:07:47 am Diego Tognola wrote:</p> <p>> Does it finally support composing HTML emails ?</p> <p></p> <p>Not really.</p> <p></p> <p>This email is sent in HTML format but I wouldn't be able to insert images inline or anything like that.</p> <p></p> <p>I can do some formatting like <span style="font-style:italic">writing
-- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com
Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Diego Tognola wrote:
Sigh, my typical use case is not even composing a new email, but just to reply to a HTML formatted email. It somehow just is embarrassing to explain to Windoze-based business partners that my replies looks so scrambled because I am using Linux ;-/
Use Thunderbird, it does HTML properly. Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
LOL, I KNEW someone was going to say that. But everything in KMail is nicely integrated with the rest of KDE...as Jerry pointed out in his original post (sorry if I am hijacking here ?), KMail is not bad at all. It's actually quite good. There's just that little big thing with the HTML scrambler. ..and to be honest, I am starting to get tired of switching between Thunderbird to reply and Kmail to regularly check and read (thank God for IMAP). On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:05:11 am Fred A. Miller wrote:
Diego Tognola wrote:
Sigh, my typical use case is not even composing a new email, but just to reply to a HTML formatted email. It somehow just is embarrassing to explain to Windoze-based business partners that my replies looks so scrambled because I am using Linux ;-/
Use Thunderbird, it does HTML properly.
Fred
-- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason."
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On Friday 14 November 2008 04:15:02 pm Diego Tognola wrote:
LOL, I KNEW someone was going to say that.
But everything in KMail is nicely integrated with the rest of KDE...as Jerry pointed out in his original post (sorry if I am hijacking here ?), KMail is not bad at all. It's actually quite good. There's just that little big thing with the HTML scrambler.
..and to be honest, I am starting to get tired of switching between Thunderbird to reply and Kmail to regularly check and read (thank God for IMAP).
I hear ya! I used to even go to the extreme - in Outlook and KMail - of auto-replying to HTML-based emails that they were to send plain text or RTF only. However, I gave up. I try and send in plain-text even in outlook, but it grows old. As it is, having HTML to render fonts for in-line comments and occasional pictures works like a charm. IIRC, thunderbird does this, but I never could get used to the GTK look/feel or the interface. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 14 November 2008 15:54, Diego Tognola wrote:
Sigh, my typical use case is not even composing a new email, but just to reply to a HTML formatted email. It somehow just is embarrassing to explain to Windoze-based business partners that my replies looks so scrambled because I am using Linux ;-/
Odd. My experience is uniformly that mail originating from Outlook and Outlook Express is what's hideously mangled. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Why odd ? It's not working for Outlook OR any HTML email: I'm using 1.9.9. too and when I click reply on a HTML email, the quoted original email in my reply is converted into pure text. That's what I was referring to. Are you saying this is not the case in your situation ? That would be odd ;-) On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:21:46 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Friday 14 November 2008 15:54, Diego Tognola wrote:
Sigh, my typical use case is not even composing a new email, but just to reply to a HTML formatted email. It somehow just is embarrassing to explain to Windoze-based business partners that my replies looks so scrambled because I am using Linux ;-/
Odd. My experience is uniformly that mail originating from Outlook and Outlook Express is what's hideously mangled.
Randall Schulz
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 14 November 2008 16:39, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:21:46 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Friday 14 November 2008 15:54, Diego Tognola wrote:
Sigh, my typical use case is not even composing a new email, but just to reply to a HTML formatted email. It somehow just is embarrassing to explain to Windoze-based business partners that my replies looks so scrambled because I am using Linux ;-/
Odd. My experience is uniformly that mail originating from Outlook and Outlook Express is what's hideously mangled.
Randall Schulz
Why odd ? It's not working for Outlook OR any HTML email:
I'm using 1.9.9. too and when I click reply on a HTML email, the quoted original email in my reply is converted into pure text. That's what I was referring to.
Are you saying this is not the case in your situation ? That would be odd ;-)
You know, we really discourage top-posting hereabouts... But, I did start by saying that KMail's HTML editing and synthesis were poor. But what I meant by Outlook (Express) posting being mangled is that they just throw in so many bizarre color, face and size variations and use such erratic line breaks. Anyway, you don't have to reply to HTML mail with another HTML message. You can use plain text. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:53:10 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
You know, we really discourage top-posting hereabouts...
..sorry..
Anyway, you don't have to reply to HTML mail with another HTML message. You can use plain text.
No, I don't have to, I could write it on a paper and send a pigeon too. But that is not my point. I'm living in 2008. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 14 November 2008 17:01, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:53:10 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
You know, we really discourage top-posting hereabouts...
..sorry..
Anyway, you don't have to reply to HTML mail with another HTML message. You can use plain text.
No, I don't have to, I could write it on a paper and send a pigeon too. But that is not my point.
I'm living in 2008.
Really? I'm living in 2052. Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition. Make your choice. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition.
...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping - that's why I was asking initially. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition.
...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping - that's why I was asking initially.
Here's one hoping that HTML based emails get done away with completely no winder people try to hide so many bugs in mail with this horrid HTML junk mail HTML mail =wastebin. Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3 (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
peter nikolic said the following on 11/17/2008 06:53 AM:
On Saturday 15 November 2008, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition. ...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping - that's why I was asking initially.
Here's one hoping that HTML based emails get done away with completely no winder people try to hide so many bugs in mail with this horrid HTML junk mail
Lets not forget the problems associated with HTML-mail quite apart from the complexity of rendering. HTML mail is very often used by spammers for a variety of reasons. This includes: - In-line images, which massively bloat the size of the message - No text, so forcing you to download the image that has the text and so getting details on your address, and hence validating it. - Spoofing addresses like this < a href="copyof.yourbank.com.at.spamsite.com/login">Your Bank</a>
From a more practical point of view, many HTML mail composers, especially on Windows machines, produce poor quality and massively inefficient HTML. You might look back over your archives (saved mail, inbox) at some HTML mail and see what the HTML section look like. Its not odd to see masses of 'invisible' tables and for each line to be its own <p> or <div> or table with the font, height etc specified over and over again.
Late model Outlook produces reasonable HTML compared to some, but using things like Word as a composer produces a lot of junk. All this translates to bloat. Its all very well to say that disk space is cheap, but that bloat adds to the overhead and response time and can make searches difficult. Think what it takes to recognise strings hat are also specified as base64, or '<font size="+1">A</font>nton', or "%61%6E%74%6F%6E%2E%61%79%6C%77%61%72%64%40%72%6F%67%65%72%73%2E%63%6F%6D" or many other things that can quite reasonably be rendered by HTML but make life difficult for search engines and greping. That impacts performance and flexibility. Put this in your e-mail: /"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN X AGAINST HTML EMAIL / \ AND POSTINGS -- Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. --Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
peter nikolic said the following on 11/17/2008 06:53 AM:
On Saturday 15 November 2008, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition.
...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping - that's why I was asking initially.
Here's one hoping that HTML based emails get done away with completely no winder people try to hide so many bugs in mail with
junk mail
Lets not forget the problems associated with HTML-mail quite apart from the complexity of rendering.
HTML mail is very often used by spammers for a variety of reasons. This includes: - In-line images, which massively bloat the size of the message - No text, so forcing you to download the image that has
On Monday 17 November 2008 05:09:32 Anton Aylward wrote: this horrid HTML the
text and so getting details on your address, and hence
validating
it. - Spoofing addresses like this < a
href="copyof.yourbank.com.at.spamsite.com/login">Your Bank</a>
From a more practical point of view, many HTML mail
composers,
especially on Windows machines, produce poor quality and massively inefficient HTML. You might look back over your archives (saved mail, inbox) at some HTML mail and see what the HTML section look like. Its not odd to see masses of 'invisible' tables and for each line to be its own <p> or <div> or table with the font, height etc specified over and over again.
Late model Outlook produces reasonable HTML compared to some, but using things like Word as a composer produces a lot of junk.
All this translates to bloat. Its all very well to say that disk space is cheap, but that bloat adds to the overhead and response time and can make searches difficult. Think what it takes to recognise strings hat are also specified as base64, or '<font size="+1">A</font>nton', or
or many other things that can quite reasonably be rendered by HTML but make life difficult for search engines and greping. That impacts performance and flexibility.
Put this in your e-mail:
/"\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN X AGAINST HTML EMAIL / \ AND POSTINGS
-- Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. --Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary Have you been able to create a kmail filter for html? I look at
"%61%6E%74%6F%6E%2E%61%79%6C%77%61%72%64%40%72%6F%67%65%72%73%2E%63%6F%6D" headers and see nothing specific on html. The mime type is multipart/mixed and if I filter on that it gets other email also. Thanks for any hints. -- Russ Registered Linux User #441463 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 17 November 2008 03:53:50 am peter nikolic wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition.
...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping - that's why I was asking initially.
Here's one hoping that HTML based emails get done away with completely no winder people try to hide so many bugs in mail with this horrid HTML junk mail
HTML mail =wastebin.
Unfortunately, we're not living in the days of Pine anymore. HTML email is here to stay. Keep in mind, most people don't give a rip about what format they're sending nor do they care about size or formatting or whatever. Alienating the 99% of people who wish to send email - html or otherwise - is a bad choice. As I said, I tried to reject HTML emails for awhile at work and got shot down. Even trying to enforce a bottom posting format was futile. There are bigger fights to be had than whether or not email should be html or plain text. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 08:38 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:
On Monday 17 November 2008 03:53:50 am peter nikolic wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008, Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition.
...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping - that's why I was asking initially.
Here's one hoping that HTML based emails get done away with completely no winder people try to hide so many bugs in mail with this horrid HTML junk mail
HTML mail =wastebin.
Unfortunately, we're not living in the days of Pine anymore. HTML email is here to stay.
Keep in mind, most people don't give a rip about what format they're sending nor do they care about size or formatting or whatever.
Alienating the 99% of people who wish to send email - html or otherwise - is a bad choice.
I do sort of dislike html mail. I can say, however, that when sending tech e-mail to a Windows user, formatting a table in the e-mail is faster than making a doc/pdf or whatever. This is mainly because many e-mail programs do not respect line endings. Any formatted text is lost. Back when I was sending to elm users, fixed space fonts were the norm, and lines were kept as they were. Ah, for the good old days.
As I said, I tried to reject HTML emails for awhile at work and got shot down. Even trying to enforce a bottom posting format was futile.
People. They just insist on having ideas of their own.
There are bigger fights to be had than whether or not email should be html or plain text.
Like why Windows users send me 800K Word docs when I ask for a screen dump... -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails. Many people sending email don't know what is HTML or send HTML emails, they just write emails. So they don't bother to turn it off or on, if they can drag&drop fancy stuff from their toolbar probably they will. KMail warns you about writing HTML emails, it let you but warns you, and it has turn off HTML email as default. I don't know if M$ Outlook (express) has this feature off by default. Kai Ponte wrote:
Unfortunately, we're not living in the days of Pine anymore. HTML email is here to stay.
Keep in mind, most people don't give a rip about what format they're sending nor do they care about size or formatting or whatever.
Alienating the 99% of people who wish to send email - html or otherwise - is a bad choice.
As I said, I tried to reject HTML emails for awhile at work and got shot down. Even trying to enforce a bottom posting format was futile.
There are bigger fights to be had than whether or not email should be html or plain text.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 17 November 2008 18:21, Xavier Callejas wrote:
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails.
Many people sending email don't know what is HTML or send HTML emails, they just write emails. So they don't bother to turn it off or on, if they can drag&drop fancy stuff from their toolbar probably they will.
KMail warns you about writing HTML emails, it let you but warns you, and it has turn off HTML email as default.
I don't know if M$ Outlook (express) has this feature off by default.
It's on by default or at least our setup was. Folks just love all the pretty colors. Somewhere in outlook there is a switch that removes the html and leaves just the text. I wrote one of the IT folks about it, and complained that his "pretty" email was 3 times the size of a text email. His answer was that folks wanted the color. I said that's OK.. I'd just put his name in my junk email list and not worry about it anymore. Got a rather rude email back, and once I was done replying, and also sending a CC to his boss, they moved him to another job. ;-) Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 6:32pm up 39 days 22:41, 4 users, load average: 1.11, 1.12, 1.09 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 17 November 2008 09:21:23 Xavier Callejas wrote:
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails.
Indeed, and in a time when RAM is cheaper than ever, and GB+ drives are affordable, one wonders whether the old reasons to prefer plain text really matter that much anymore. I do prefer to see public mailing list messages using *my* choice of font and other properties, so I'm still a fan of plain text for list mail. However, email clients are often used for far more than mailing list correspondence. And away from public mailing lists, formatted email messages can be quite useful. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi! Am Dienstag 18 November 2008 schrieb Jerry Houston:
On Monday 17 November 2008 09:21:23 Xavier Callejas wrote:
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails.
Indeed, and in a time when RAM is cheaper than ever, and GB+ drives are affordable, one wonders whether the old reasons to prefer plain text really matter that much anymore.
Therefore new reasons appear. Low power, mini display devices that keep you online 25/8 e.g. ;) And in addition, why should I upgrade only to read emails? Regards, Matthias -- Matthias Bach www.marix.org „Der einzige Weg, die Grenzen des Möglichen zu finden, ist ein klein wenig über diese hinaus in das Unmögliche vorzustoßen.“ - Arthur C. Clarke
Matthias Bach wrote:
Am Dienstag 18 November 2008 schrieb Jerry Houston:
On Monday 17 November 2008 09:21:23 Xavier Callejas wrote:
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails. Indeed, and in a time when RAM is cheaper than ever, and GB+ drives are affordable, one wonders whether the old reasons to prefer plain text really matter that much anymore.
Therefore new reasons appear. Low power, mini display devices that keep you online 25/8 e.g. ;)
The main reason for plain text mails and trimming posts, IMHO, is so people who still have to use slow dial-up links can participate. Again, that's not usually a concern in a corporate environment. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth said the following on 11/18/2008 05:16 AM:
Matthias Bach wrote:
Am Dienstag 18 November 2008 schrieb Jerry Houston:
On Monday 17 November 2008 09:21:23 Xavier Callejas wrote:
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails. Indeed, and in a time when RAM is cheaper than ever, and GB+ drives are affordable, one wonders whether the old reasons to prefer plain text really matter that much anymore. Therefore new reasons appear. Low power, mini display devices that keep you online 25/8 e.g. ;)
The main reason for plain text mails and trimming posts, IMHO, is so people who still have to use slow dial-up links can participate. Again, that's not usually a concern in a corporate environment.
But security is. The hassle of poor security, spam, phishing and various html-mail trickery may be an inconvenience and annoyance at home but in a corporate setting it is something that has a real cost in terms of wasted time, administration costs and security risks. These can be identified and translated into dollar values and presented to the CFO and hence lead to pressure for change. -- "Rather than focus on _things_ and _time-, focus on preserving and enhancing _relationships_ and accomplishing _results_" - Steven Covey. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 10:16 -0000, Dave Howorth wrote:
The main reason for plain text mails and trimming posts, IMHO, is so people who still have to use slow dial-up links can participate. Again, that's not usually a concern in a corporate environment.
It maybe if you are on the road and your cellular company puts a 1GB limit per month on your internet connection. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkiusQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WrFwCdEt6aaJn9GWOv6CM6rdDjVBKK HlwAnirnwDcY0H6tJpzbdBb1hugc2547 =PfDJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 10:16 -0000, Dave Howorth wrote:
The main reason for plain text mails and trimming posts, IMHO, is so people who still have to use slow dial-up links can participate. Again, that's not usually a concern in a corporate environment.
It maybe if you are on the road and your cellular company puts a 1GB limit per month on your internet connection.
Try China and Blackberry, then each spam you receive costs a lot more than you would ever would have imagined. (^-^) No, my reason for inline replies and trimming mails is efficiency. You can read this mail in a few seconds and still see all relevant parts in context. If I have to puzzle out a mixture of top and bottom posts without any trimming it would cost a lot more time for me to read the mail. I only have a limited amount of time, so I skip over badly written mails even if I know I could help. Why should I go out on a limb if the help-searching poster doesn't deem it necessary to present his/her case as clear and concise as possible. -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) japantest (.) homelinux (.) com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 14:25 +0100, Sandy Drobic wrote:
It maybe if you are on the road and your cellular company puts a 1GB limit per month on your internet connection.
Try China and Blackberry, then each spam you receive costs a lot more than you would ever would have imagined. (^-^)
Argh.
No, my reason for inline replies and trimming mails is efficiency. You can read this mail in a few seconds and still see all relevant parts in context.
Absolutely. I had an argument recently with someone that accused me of tergiversating what he said because I trimmed his emails... which sometimes reach 30 KB. Sigh. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkki1qIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UQ7gCdE7yerHU/mndCj2isOUPl2yzO n+oAoJOHxlL7KeL5bqEzG/OSRATUTvql =hF9X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008 06:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 14:25 +0100, Sandy Drobic wrote: ...
No, my reason for inline replies and trimming mails is efficiency. You can read this mail in a few seconds and still see all relevant parts in context.
Absolutely. I had an argument recently with someone that accused me of tergiversating what he said because I trimmed his emails... which sometimes reach 30 KB.
My vocabulary is pretty good, but... What on Earth is "tergiversating?" Hmm... -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- tergiversate [tur-jiv-verse-ate] Verb [-sating, -sated] Formal 1. to be evasive or ambiguous 2. to change sides or loyalties [Latin tergiversari to turn one's back] tergiversation n tergiversator n -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- Well, I can move today from the "a good day to die" to the "a good day" category; I learned something.
... Carlos E. R.
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 07:00 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
My vocabulary is pretty good, but... What on Earth is "tergiversating?"
I should have known. The spell checker complained, but the word exists: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tergiversate :-)
Hmm...
-==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- tergiversate [tur-jiv-verse-ate] Verb [-sating, -sated] Formal
1. to be evasive or ambiguous 2. to change sides or loyalties [Latin tergiversari to turn one's back]
tergiversation n tergiversator n -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==-
Well, I can move today from the "a good day to die" to the "a good day" category; I learned something.
:-) It is a common word in Spanish. Teachs me that languages are different, I should not assume that similar words are similarly used on both languages. There is no such thing as being really bilingual. Sigh... Anyway, the definition above is not entirely correct, or is not what I meant. The one from the wiktionary is closer: ] (intransitive) To evade, to equivocate using subterfuge; to deliberately ] obfuscate. We use it to mean taking what some one says out of context and changing the meaning around, deliberately. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkki72AACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XCPgCfeMIPcfFvaNnosoRGIvPmXDbU RIIAn3cfZH7ta0KJyKKYVKboJ3OzqTJh =BW/5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
We use it to mean taking what some one says out of context and changing the meaning around, deliberately.
We have two better words for that in English - "politics" and "lawyers" Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
We use it to mean taking what some one says out of context and changing the meaning around, deliberately.
We have two better words for that in English - "politics" and "lawyers"
...and journalists (both right and left). John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008, Jerry Houston wrote:
On Monday 17 November 2008 09:21:23 Xavier Callejas wrote:
I think that a lot of fault if of the email clients that has as default write HTML emails.
Indeed, and in a time when RAM is cheaper than ever, and GB+ drives are affordable, one wonders whether the old reasons to prefer plain text really matter that much anymore.
I do prefer to see public mailing list messages using *my* choice of font and other properties, so I'm still a fan of plain text for list mail.
However, email clients are often used for far more than mailing list correspondence. And away from public mailing lists, formatted email messages can be quite useful.
Hows about wasted bandwidth sending reams and reams of un needed fancy HTML rubbish . it serves no real purpose well nothing that can n ot be done via attachintg a document to an email a far better way at least then you can save the doc and can the mail not have to fart around extracting the information from out of reams of rubbish . I spose you could take it one stage further ie if you want HTML based mail then use a WEB based mail service , If you want more correct mail then use a propper mail system that is another thing i hate WEB based mail systems cant remember the last time i logged into my Yahoo thing that comes with this BT connection few years must be Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:38:10 am Kai Ponte wrote:
Unfortunately, we're not living in the days of Pine anymore. HTML email is here to stay.
Keep in mind, most people don't give a rip about what format they're sending nor do they care about size or formatting or whatever.
Alienating the 99% of people who wish to send email - html or otherwise - is a bad choice.
Thanks Kai, I started to get worried that I may not be 'worthy' using openSUSE/KDE/KMail simply because, yeah well, I want to USE it the same way most of us use our cars. The posters who get turned on by the question if HTML mail is good or bad should keep in mind that quite often, the decision is not on your side. Or would you seriously send back a KMail scramble to your customers and investors ? openSUSE is fortunately mature enough to be USED as an alternative to other OSs. I'm one of these guys who actually use it this way - as a tool. And KMail is part of this. I'm sure that this scenario of 'ordinary people' using openSUSE is somewhat intended by most of the authors/committers/contributors ? But with this comes the reality of having to deal with the not so perfect world outside. And as Kai pointed out. HTML is reality, be it in composing or replying, be it perfect or not, be it good or bad. It's there - don't fight it, write some more nice code instead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 12:20 +1100, Diego Tognola wrote:
I'm sure that this scenario of 'ordinary people' using openSUSE is somewhat intended by most of the authors/committers/contributors ?
Indeed. A weekend Sunday paper here in Stockholm had a double page article on how Linux was not for nerds any more. They pointed people to a few common distros (including openSUSE). I can't say how many people will rush out. But it was the right type of info to be sending out. Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :) -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 07:57 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
When I first installed SuSE, it took me perhaps a week to get graphics working, a month to get good graphics. It had to be configured by hand, sax was not yet invented or was too primitive (SuSE 5.2). Not many users would have endured that entry learning curve! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkiu4YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+kgCffILh3ajtqeNkyPu10GbaXJgS IPAAn2Actl4zN8EQuwA80vwk9bUoBDJU =e4Gf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 13:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 07:57 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
When I first installed SuSE, it took me perhaps a week to get graphics working, a month to get good graphics. It had to be configured by hand, sax was not yet invented or was too primitive (SuSE 5.2).
Not many users would have endured that entry learning curve!
I was joking. You at least had graphics... <cue violins> In my day, we had to do the graphics before dawn on an empty stomach. In the winter we often had no shoes and had to fight the wolves to get the network working. Linux users today don't know how easy they have it. They have it too easy. No character building ;) ;) -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008 05:52, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
...
I was joking. You at least had graphics... <cue violins> In my day, we had to do the graphics before dawn on an empty stomach. In the winter we often had no shoes and had to fight the wolves to get the network working. Linux users today don't know how easy they have it. They have it too easy. No character building ;) ;)
You had to craft your own fonts, too??
-- Roger Oberholtzer
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Randall R Schulz
You had to craft your own fonts, too??
Hummppp. We had to hand carve molds for lead type-face to make the characters, and boil char and soot to make ink. I was always glad that someone had invented paper, or we would have had to publish on tree bark. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008 07:59, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Randall R Schulz
[11-18-08 09:07]: You had to craft your own fonts, too??
.... I was always glad that someone had invented paper, or we would have had to publish on tree bark.
Because your philosophy required whole-body burial of all animals and hence parchment was unavailable to you? And they say Indiana is a red state...
-- Patrick Shanahan
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Randall R Schulz
Because your philosophy required whole-body burial of all animals and hence parchment was unavailable to you?
We may be a little behind times, but we did adopt wearing shoes after crossing the river :^)/
And they say Indiana is a red state...
Further explanation necessary, remember your audience and match your oratory :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
By the way: The article that said Linux was no longer a Nerd thing (in Swedish) is: http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/it/artikel_2042431.svd The article was in the printed version as well, where it was a bit more colorful. But the text here is the same. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 10:59 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Randall R Schulz
[11-18-08 09:07]: You had to craft your own fonts, too??
Hummppp. We had to hand carve molds for lead type-face to make the characters, and boil char and soot to make ink. I was always glad that someone had invented paper, or we would have had to publish on tree bark.
You had paper? I still bear the imprints in my chest where we were forced to list hard copies for use when the system misbehaved. I could only dream of paper. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008 08:17:11 am Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Hummppp. We had to hand carve molds for lead type-face to make the characters, and boil char and soot to make ink. I was always glad that someone had invented paper, or we would have had to publish on tree bark.
You had paper? I still bear the imprints in my chest where we were forced to list hard copies for use when the system misbehaved. I could only dream of paper.
(cue Monty Python sketch...) -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 14:52 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 13:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 07:57 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
When I first installed SuSE, it took me perhaps a week to get graphics working, a month to get good graphics. It had to be configured by hand, sax was not yet invented or was too primitive (SuSE 5.2).
Not many users would have endured that entry learning curve!
I was joking. You at least had graphics... <cue violins> In my day, we had to do the graphics before dawn on an empty stomach. In the winter we often had no shoes and had to fight the wolves to get the network working. Linux users today don't know how easy they have it. They have it too easy. No character building ;) ;)
ROTFL! X'-) Oh yeah! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkki1SkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UjSwCcCy0ZE8vKzgLminjWPpDrMJtJ SqkAnRtTbsu/1QKOzXX0XLNpOygcVDfy =fx7+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 13:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 07:57 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :) When I first installed SuSE, it took me perhaps a week to get graphics working, a month to get good graphics. It had to be configured by hand, sax was not yet invented or was too primitive (SuSE 5.2).
Not many users would have endured that entry learning curve!
I was joking. You at least had graphics... <cue violins> In my day, we had to do the graphics before dawn on an empty stomach. In the winter we often had no shoes and had to fight the wolves to get the network working. Linux users today don't know how easy they have it. They have it too easy. No character building ;) ;)
You forgot to mention you had to walk 10 miles to school and it was uphill both ways. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 17 November 2008 10:57:31 pm Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
A weekend Sunday paper here in Stockholm had a double page article on how Linux was not for nerds any more. They pointed people to a few common distros (including openSUSE). I can't say how many people will rush out. But it was the right type of info to be sending out. Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
did you ever try downloading (via ftp), SuSE or Red Hat, then compiling and installing back in - say - '94 or '95?? :P -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Kai Ponte
did you ever try downloading (via ftp), SuSE or Red Hat, then compiling and installing back in - say - '94 or '95??
How about Slackware over a 1200 baud telephone connection in '92. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 15:16 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:
Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
did you ever try downloading (via ftp), SuSE or Red Hat, then compiling and installing back in - say - '94 or '95??
:P
Lucky you! I could only dream of that, because I had no internet, and no posibility of getting it, even though I did have a phone and modem. Fidonet was the only thing practicable, and a download that size would be prohibitive for me - if I remember correctly the dates. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkjbigACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WpOgCggEcj36HaslUesLSa/c/YD8XS u6QAn1F92Icvjw87ZjP8P32ECe8iTiZP =IQwz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008 05:38:46 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 15:16 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:
Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
did you ever try downloading (via ftp), SuSE or Red Hat, then compiling and installing back in - say - '94 or '95??
:P
Lucky you!
I could only dream of that, because I had no internet, and no posibility of getting it, even though I did have a phone and modem. Fidonet was the only thing practicable, and a download that size would be prohibitive for me - if I remember correctly the dates.
LOL! No, I was just being facetious. I did have intraweb starting in the late '80s on my ccvax account at school. I also had 9600 dialup at home on Compuserve and then AOL. In '94 I started with a programming company who had a T1 connection. (I think they paid something like $1,200/month for it.) I honestly didn't try Linux - and not SuSE until I got ahold of some Red Hat 4 disks and then SuSE 5.0 a little while later. I was very underwhelmed compared to OS/2 or Windows NT. :P -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-11-18 at 18:33 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:
Lucky you!
I could only dream of that, because I had no internet, and no posibility of getting it, even though I did have a phone and modem. Fidonet was the only thing practicable, and a download that size would be prohibitive for me - if I remember correctly the dates.
LOL!
No, I was just being facetious.
I did have intraweb starting in the late '80s on my ccvax account at school. I also had 9600 dialup at home on Compuserve and then AOL. In '94 I started with a programming company who had a T1 connection. (I think they paid something like $1,200/month for it.)
wow, 1200! Compuserve... that was out of my reach, too. I got the PC magazine from the USA, which contained very interesting articles with assembler code printed in full, like the under 3Kb editor ted.com. You could get the source code via modem - which would mean a trans-atlantic phone call at a prohibitive cost for me, as a student, even if I had a modem. I had no idea how to get a compuserve account, (and when I did, I didn't have a credit card). So it meant typing the entire asm code... 3 KB of binary means many long pages of asm text. But I finally did it, and the enjoyment of getting an editor small enough for a 360 floppy typed all by myself was... I don't have words for that.
I honestly didn't try Linux - and not SuSE until I got ahold of some Red Hat 4 disks and then SuSE 5.0 a little while later.
I was very underwhelmed compared to OS/2 or Windows NT. :P
I got a one CD version of Red Hat on a magazine, and installed it - and I simply did not know what to do at the command prompt when I installed it. Then I saw another magazine with a two CD version of SuSE 5.3 (which I keep) - and I had read comparative that said that SuSE was the easiest - so SuSE it was. Yes, it had a "susehelp" script that was... very useful. Anyway, it was hard work. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkkak8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W0wwCfWI0rB9WnOXTIT5Vx6sKMN0Z2 +MEAnjRaleyVdyY9jVddc1JfyKW4GrV7 =EC/A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 15:16 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:
On Monday 17 November 2008 10:57:31 pm Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
A weekend Sunday paper here in Stockholm had a double page article on how Linux was not for nerds any more. They pointed people to a few common distros (including openSUSE). I can't say how many people will rush out. But it was the right type of info to be sending out. Seriously though: was it ever really only for nerds? :)
did you ever try downloading (via ftp), SuSE or Red Hat, then compiling and installing back in - say - '94 or '95??
We did start with Linux rather early on. We just moved office, and I got rid of quite a few distro boxes. But I could not get rid of Gentoo downloads. Perhaps not '94 or '95 (we were using SVR4 and UnixWare at that time), but still a bit of handwork. I was making a joke... -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 18 November 2008 11:22:38 pm Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
I was making a joke...
It wasn't lost on me. :) -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kai Ponte wrote:
On Monday 17 November 2008 03:53:50 am peter nikolic wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008, Diego Tognola wrote:
Anyway, you're just not going to get both things: KMail _and_ decent HTML composition. ...sad but true, but there's a lot of users out there still hoping -
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:23:24 pm Randall R Schulz wrote: that's why I was asking initially. Here's one hoping that HTML based emails get done away with completely no winder people try to hide so many bugs in mail with this horrid HTML junk mail
HTML mail =wastebin.
Unfortunately, we're not living in the days of Pine anymore. HTML email is here to stay.
Keep in mind, most people don't give a rip about what format they're sending nor do they care about size or formatting or whatever.
Alienating the 99% of people who wish to send email - html or otherwise - is a bad choice.
As I said, I tried to reject HTML emails for awhile at work and got shot down. Even trying to enforce a bottom posting format was futile.
There are bigger fights to be had than whether or not email should be html or plain text.
But we are living in the age of dangerous HTML, and there is a case for rejecting HTML on potential security issues alone, bouncing it back to the sender as a potential security problem may educate some. Zero day exploits can and do occur, others may like living dangerously, I personally do not. I default to reading text but will read HTML it comes from a trustworthy source (Outlook != trusted). HTML can be quite bulky and the signal to noise ratio is quite high, which is possibly tolerable on an individual basis, but more of an issue for those who run and pay for the servers that actually distribute the mail. It is a highly inefficient use of resources and arguably has an implicit additional cost with little real return. I suspect a comparative cost analysis run past an organisations bean counters in the current financial climate might make things change somewhat :-) unsolicted HTML -> /dev/null - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkipzQACgkQasN0sSnLmgL5BQCeOLqNlBbmci6ujRIDrlYPTyXh HLsAn3kUuYsmYY29FY67USc3l9VSSZJK =SB3K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On teh basis of this thread I tried KMail. I'm a long time T'Bird user and the one thing that p****es me off is that it drags in Gnome stuff. OK, so call me a purist - I don't care. Well, I know I can juggle fonts to get over some of the ugliness, I've done that with T'bird too. Some things, like threading, are much nicer. Yes, lots of configurable, but the the one thing that I really like about T'Bird I can't find in KMail. Its that pull-down that limits the messages to 'recent', 'last week', last month' -- or you can add more, I've done for T'Bird. Its an essential so I don't drown in mail. Is is there but somewhere I couldn't find it or it is just not implemented? -- Leadership has a harder job to do than just choose sides. It must bring sides together. - Jesse Jackson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 03:00:50 Anton Aylward wrote:
Its that pull-down that limits the messages to 'recent', 'last week', last month' -- or you can add more, I've done for T'Bird. Its an essential so I don't drown in mail.
Is is there but somewhere I couldn't find it or it is just not implemented?
In KDE 4.2, kmail will automatically split emails into "Today", "Yesterday", "Last Week" and so on And for Diego, in 4.2 kmail can compose HTML email by going to Options and selecting "Formatting (HTML)". Just please don't use it for mailing lists Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 00:52:12 Anders Johansson wrote:
And for Diego, in 4.2 kmail can compose HTML email by going to Options and selecting "Formatting (HTML)". Just please don't use it for mailing lists
In 4.1.3 it does, as well. I just tried it yesterday. What's not obvious, is that once you select HTML, it sticks. After experimenting with that, I replied to a list message (without selecting HTML) and my reply bounced. It would be great if it defaulted to plain text when replying to a plain text message, and HTML when replying to an HTML message, because probably 99.9 percent of the time, that would be appropriate. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 11:21:47 Jerry Houston wrote:
It would be great if it defaulted to plain text when replying to a plain text message, and HTML when replying to an HTML message, because probably 99.9 percent of the time, that would be appropriate.
Well, it's still in development, so file a bug for it. Suggestions are bugs as well Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 04:16:10 Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008 11:21:47 Jerry Houston wrote:
It would be great if it defaulted to plain text when replying to a plain text message, and HTML when replying to an HTML message, because probably 99.9 percent of the time, that would be appropriate.
Well, it's still in development, so file a bug for it. Suggestions are bugs as well
Good idea, thanks. I added my comment to an existing wish. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 09:46:02 am Jerry Houston wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008 04:16:10 Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008 11:21:47 Jerry Houston wrote:
It would be great if it defaulted to plain text when replying to a plain text message, and HTML when replying to an HTML message, because probably 99.9 percent of the time, that would be appropriate.
Well, it's still in development, so file a bug for it. Suggestions are bugs as well
Good idea, thanks. I added my comment to an existing wish.
I think I'll add one too - One thing I like is the ability to switch on the fly between HTML, Plain Text and Rich Text. See the enclosed screen - and this: http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20081116_outlook_choose_full.jpg I use that feature often. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock
On Saturday 15 November 2008 03:28:29 pm Kai Ponte wrote: ...
http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20081116_outlook_choose_full.jpg
I use that feature often.
I just got a bug in Okular that opened your image. It couldn't decide which image size is fine and it was switching between 2 or 3 sizes. First I thought it is a GIF image, but then the link tells different. Changing window size stopped "animation" ;-) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 08:48:13 pm Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 15 November 2008 03:28:29 pm Kai Ponte wrote: ...
http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20081116_outlook_choose_full.jpg
I use that feature often.
I just got a bug in Okular that opened your image. It couldn't decide which image size is fine and it was switching between 2 or 3 sizes. First I thought it is a GIF image, but then the link tells different.
That's just wierd! My default viewer is Gwenview. No issues there.
Changing window size stopped "animation" ;-)
If only my PHB brain knew how to do that kind of thing. :P
-- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:52:12 pm Anders Johansson wrote:
And for Diego, in 4.2 kmail can compose HTML email by going to Options and selecting "Formatting (HTML)". Just please don't use it for mailing lists
I knew there was a God*, thanks Anton (and Jerry) !! It never occurred to me to bother anyone with ugly html code on this list, especially as I'd expect most of the readers to be capable of parsing it on the fly while reading. Someone could be offended by the colourscheme I'd choose ;-) *please refrain from sending me further invitations to Christian merchandise simply because I am using this word in a post. No offence, but who knows, maybe I am even referring to a more metaphorical interpretation... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 15 November 2008 09:37:22 pm Diego Tognola wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:52:12 pm Anders Johansson wrote:
And for Diego, in 4.2 kmail can compose HTML email by going to Options and selecting "Formatting (HTML)". Just please don't use it for mailing lists
I knew there was a God*, thanks Anton (and Jerry) !!
It never occurred to me to bother anyone with ugly html code on this list, especially as I'd expect most of the readers to be capable of parsing it on the fly while reading. Someone could be offended by the colourscheme I'd choose ;-)
I couldn't imagine HTML email on a mailing list - that's why we have web forums. In any case, I added a comment to this bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423
*please refrain from sending me further invitations to Christian merchandise simply because I am using this word in a post. No offence, but who knows, maybe I am even referring to a more metaphorical interpretation...
-- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (22)
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Anders Johansson
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Anton Aylward
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Carlos E. R.
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Dave Howorth
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Diego Tognola
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Fred A. Miller
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G T Smith
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James Knott
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Jerry Houston
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John E. Perry
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Kai Ponte
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Matthias Bach
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Mike
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Patrick Shanahan
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peter nikolic
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Rajko M.
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Randall R Schulz
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Roger Oberholtzer
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Russ Fineman
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Sandy Drobic
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Sunny
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Xavier Callejas