-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 <rant on> Hi all. Ok, so Linux is coming along nicely (despite the market games of some). However there are glaring holes in some things, that aren't necessarily Linux' or any of the distros fault per se. One thing is scanner support. Ironically Mac OSX is have this issue as well. I have to fairly nice scanners. One is an HP 4470c and the other is a Umax 4000U. Neither of these are support by Linux, or moreover, are not support "for" Linux by particular venders OEMs. I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s. I have been googling the hell out of this subject and this is why I've come to the conclusion that the devs have to Backwards engineer these devices and are still fight with them. in the case of the HP, it moreover a RealTek issue since the make the chip/components that are used in the HP device. To the devs credit they have tried repeatedly to contact Realtek about this and have gotten the cold shoulder (aka no reply ). Now I think that, since Linus is coming in to its own, that perhaps the Rep for the Linuc companies should be able to convince thosein charge could be persuaded by Linux/Linux distros to be a littlefriendly. But Ii'm not holding my breath. I strongly thing the scanner (as well as other common SOHO/SMB devices) software issues need to be addressed. Perhaps have SuSE exec meet with the company and persuad these OEMs to help out a little. Especially since these products (Umax and HP 4470) are no longer sold by HP. So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores - and therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well. <rant off> Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/d/nYiqnGhdjCOJsRAul2AJ4ibJi1pXGp8iuAFsoIGoNEr1v2kwCZAZGQ DlePHddCMvx8uOBWh85wu1A= =XaEj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 05:22, Curtis Rey wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
<rant on>
Hi all. OK, so Linux is coming along nicely (despite the market games of some). However there are glaring holes in some things, that aren't necessarily Linux' or any of the distros fault per se.
One thing is scanner support. Ironically Mac OSX is have this issue as well. I have to fairly nice scanners. One is an HP 4470c and the other is a Umax 4000U. Neither of these are support by Linux, or moreover, are not support "for" Linux by particular vendor's OEMs.
I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s.
I have been googling the hell out of this subject and this is why I've come to the conclusion that the devs have to Backwards engineer these devices and are still fight with them. in the case of the HP, it moreover a RealTek issue since the make the chip/components that are used in the HP device. To the devs credit they have tried repeatedly to contact Realtek about this and have gotten the cold shoulder (aka no reply ).
Now I think that, since Linus is coming in to its own, that perhaps the Rep for the Linux companies should be able to convince those in charge could be persuaded by Linux/Linux distros to be a little friendly. But Ii'I'm not holding my breath.
I strongly thing the scanner (as well as other common SOHO/SMB devices) software issues need to be addressed. Perhaps have SuSE exec meet with the company and persuade these OEMs to help out a little. Especially since these products (Umax and HP 4470) are no longer sold by HP.
So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores - and therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well.
<rant off>
Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
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<personal opinion> My best guess as to why the manufacturers don't supply drivers for linux is because M$ has told them (not directly) not to. A threat of withholding development information could be a very strong deterrent to a company providing drivers.
On Monday 29 September 2003 10:22, Curtis Rey wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
<rant on>
Hi all. Ok, so Linux is coming along nicely (despite the market games of some). However there are glaring holes in some things, that aren't necessarily Linux' or any of the distros fault per se.
One thing is scanner support. Ironically Mac OSX is have this issue as well. I have to fairly nice scanners. One is an HP 4470c and the other is a Umax 4000U. Neither of these are support by Linux, or moreover, are not support "for" Linux by particular venders OEMs.
I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s.
I have been googling the hell out of this subject and this is why I've come to the conclusion that the devs have to Backwards engineer these devices and are still fight with them. in the case of the HP, it moreover a RealTek issue since the make the chip/components that are used in the HP device. To the devs credit they have tried repeatedly to contact Realtek about this and have gotten the cold shoulder (aka no reply ).
Now I think that, since Linus is coming in to its own, that perhaps the Rep for the Linuc companies should be able to convince thosein charge could be persuaded by Linux/Linux distros to be a littlefriendly. But Ii'm not holding my breath.
I strongly thing the scanner (as well as other common SOHO/SMB devices) software issues need to be addressed. Perhaps have SuSE exec meet with the company and persuad these OEMs to help out a little. Especially since these products (Umax and HP 4470) are no longer sold by HP.
So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores - and therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well.
<rant off>
Epson, by contrast, have made a big effort, and I use their kit with SuSE on a daily basis. Perhaps the best way to begin chipping away at the lack of co-operation from other vendors is to drop them a line politely telling them why you're going to buy Epson (or another co-operative manufacturer) rather than their product. I suppose a quick line to Epson to tell them you bought their kit *because* of Linux support is indicated too. Frustrating situation though. Cheers Fergus
Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
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-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday September 29 2003 07:42, Fergus Wilde wrote:
On Monday 29 September 2003 10:22, Curtis Rey wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
<rant on>
Hi all. Ok, so Linux is coming along nicely (despite the market games of some). However there are glaring holes in some things, that aren't necessarily Linux' or any of the distros fault per se.
One thing is scanner support. Ironically Mac OSX is have this issue as well. I have to fairly nice scanners. One is an HP 4470c and the other is a Umax 4000U. Neither of these are support by Linux, or moreover, are not support "for" Linux by particular venders OEMs.
I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s.
I have been googling the hell out of this subject and this is why I've come to the conclusion that the devs have to Backwards engineer these devices and are still fight with them. in the case of the HP, it moreover a RealTek issue since the make the chip/components that are used in the HP device. To the devs credit they have tried repeatedly to contact Realtek about this and have gotten the cold shoulder (aka no reply ).
Now I think that, since Linus is coming in to its own, that perhaps the Rep for the Linuc companies should be able to convince thosein charge could be persuaded by Linux/Linux distros to be a littlefriendly. But Ii'm not holding my breath.
I strongly thing the scanner (as well as other common SOHO/SMB devices) software issues need to be addressed. Perhaps have SuSE exec meet with the company and persuad these OEMs to help out a little. Especially since these products (Umax and HP 4470) are no longer sold by HP.
So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores - and therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well.
<rant off>
Epson, by contrast, have made a big effort, and I use their kit with SuSE on a daily basis. Perhaps the best way to begin chipping away at the lack of co-operation from other vendors is to drop them a line politely telling them why you're going to buy Epson (or another co-operative manufacturer) rather than their product. I suppose a quick line to Epson to tell them you bought their kit *because* of Linux support is indicated too.
Frustrating situation though. Cheers Fergus
Ya, the other thing to consider is that usually corporations change at a snails pace. Considering that Linux is reaching critical mass and the adoption of Linux is beginning to snowball, one might realistically summize that the suits my only catch on to this months down the line. And also, they often have the mentality to steer clients to their newer products and therefore they believe that people may feel no choice but to "upgrade" to a newer product. This is what the company wants because it means new revenue - naturally. However, a lot of people don't have the spare cash to throw down everytime they drop a former product. My wife is having the same problem with Mac OSX. The HP 4770c scanner worked/had drivers in Mac OS 9.x but it is unsupported in OSX. The same happened with printers in XP (though much of the blame is on M$ and it "certified driver" program - bleh). What I guess really bothers me is that the chip makers are really the bottom line with this issue. I mean I have read several emails of the various sane devs that state they have sent several emails to companies like Motorola, RealTek, etc... That have gone unanswered repeatedly. So this begs the question - is this a matter of protecting proprietary/trade secrets that are vaible or just a blanket policy not to release any info regardless? Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/eGZoiqnGhdjCOJsRAgfqAJwMAaXre7j7C6RVdS5YeNnvsqQUKQCdEOWj FUsTxif8MKHwKwslLfdd4t8= =7uGw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
<snipped for brevity>
Epson, by contrast, have made a big effort, and I use their kit with SuSE on a daily basis. Perhaps the best way to begin chipping away at the lack of co-operation from other vendors is to drop them a line politely telling them why you're going to buy Epson (or another co-operative manufacturer) rather than their product. I suppose a quick line to Epson to tell them you bought their kit *because* of Linux support is indicated too.
Indeed that does help, but if they are one of the larger, more "negative" companies, writing an actual letter may carry more weight. I do not know what hardware companies have to lose in having Open Source drivers, or at least support for Linux.
Frustrating situation though. Cheers Fergus
Ya, the other thing to consider is that usually corporations change at a snails pace. Considering that Linux is reaching critical mass and the adoption of Linux is beginning to snowball, one might realistically summize that the suits my only catch on to this months down the line.
It costs money whichever way they look at it and they want to make sure they get some return on their investment. This is especially true for current "desktop" hardware such as scanners or digital camera's.
And also, they often have the mentality to steer clients to their newer products and therefore they believe that people may feel no choice but to "upgrade" to a newer product. This is what the company wants because it means new revenue - naturally.
ATI took an awfully long time to include more cards with their drivers...
However, a lot of people don't have the spare cash to throw down everytime they drop a former product. My wife is having the same problem with Mac OSX. The HP 4770c scanner worked/had drivers in Mac OS 9.x but it is unsupported in OSX. The same happened with printers in XP (though much of the blame is on M$ and it "certified driver" program - bleh).
Mac OSX is basically in the same boat as Linux (not that high percentage of the market, also have moved to a Unix base) right now, apart from Linux does not have a very strong marketing division to assault your TV screens (I have yet to see the recent IBM ad).
What I guess really bothers me is that the chip makers are really the bottom line with this issue. I mean I have read several emails of the various sane devs that state they have sent several emails to companies like Motorola, RealTek, etc... That have gone unanswered repeatedly.
Yes and we have to research a bit before plunging money into a companies product. If they have zero support or tolerance for Linux then I will look for alternatives. If Linux continues to grow and people stop buying these products the manufacturers will eventually see the effect.
So this begs the question - is this a matter of protecting proprietary/trade secrets that are vaible or just a blanket policy not to release any info regardless?
Depends on the company I believe :). Nvidia have stated many times that they cannot release a fully Open Source driver because of trade secrets, some of which do not belong to them. Some companies I ma sure just do not want to bother right now...
Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
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On Monday 29 September 2003 10:22 am, Curtis Rey wrote:
I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s.
Open source software is a comunity of people sharing their efforts. The "devs" you refer to are users like you who feel the need for a driver for their scanners enough to write one, and then give it to the comunity. Some manufacturers are better than others at suppling information, but many drivers have been created without any documentation. If you want a driver then write one. I know this is a very different environment to Microsoft where you get what you are given, and if "they" do not supply it you do not get it, but here there is no us and them. Writing drivers is not that hard, but it is normal to spread the load between several people who have different skills. Work is needed to research how the scanner works, write some code, test the code on many platforms, write the documentation, translate it. I am sure you can contribute to some of this. If you ask on the sane mailing list you may find someone else who would like to work with you on this. David
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 29 September 2003 02:22 am, Curtis Rey wrote: - ---------------snip-------------
So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores
I think your answer is part of your question.
therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well.
Who's going to buy a brand new Unsupported device when they have the option of choosing a Supported (but older and cheaper) used/no longer manufactured device instead As the Ferengi might say "where's the profit" - -- dh Don't shop at GoogleGear.com! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/eE09BwgxlylUsJARAhIyAJ97eRA5DMTAiDCvDZ1ckw1GievyKwCfc5et PJVIa/g4Jz4MShVoV3SN804= =twVt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
You might want to take a look at : http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#supported Of the two scanners I have, only one is partially supported by sane, the other is not supported at all, so Vuescan is a great help. On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 11:22, Curtis Rey wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
<rant on>
Hi all. Ok, so Linux is coming along nicely (despite the market games of some). However there are glaring holes in some things, that aren't necessarily Linux' or any of the distros fault per se.
One thing is scanner support. Ironically Mac OSX is have this issue as well. I have to fairly nice scanners. One is an HP 4470c and the other is a Umax 4000U. Neither of these are support by Linux, or moreover, are not support "for" Linux by particular venders OEMs.
I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s.
I have been googling the hell out of this subject and this is why I've come to the conclusion that the devs have to Backwards engineer these devices and are still fight with them. in the case of the HP, it moreover a RealTek issue since the make the chip/components that are used in the HP device. To the devs credit they have tried repeatedly to contact Realtek about this and have gotten the cold shoulder (aka no reply ).
Now I think that, since Linus is coming in to its own, that perhaps the Rep for the Linuc companies should be able to convince thosein charge could be persuaded by Linux/Linux distros to be a littlefriendly. But Ii'm not holding my breath.
I strongly thing the scanner (as well as other common SOHO/SMB devices) software issues need to be addressed. Perhaps have SuSE exec meet with the company and persuad these OEMs to help out a little. Especially since these products (Umax and HP 4470) are no longer sold by HP.
So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores - and therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well.
<rant off>
Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQE/d/nYiqnGhdjCOJsRAul2AJ4ibJi1pXGp8iuAFsoIGoNEr1v2kwCZAZGQ DlePHddCMvx8uOBWh85wu1A= =XaEj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Frits Wüthrich
Vuescan - an awesome piece of software. Not free or open source, but very reasonably priced. It runs my Nikon CoolScan II which ships with only windows support FAR better than the factory software. Take a look at the supported scanner list; it could well be the best choice for most scanner users. dave Frits Wüthrich wrote:
You might want to take a look at : http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#supported
Of the two scanners I have, only one is partially supported by sane, the other is not supported at all, so Vuescan is a great help.
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 11:22, Curtis Rey wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
<rant on>
Hi all. Ok, so Linux is coming along nicely (despite the market games of some). However there are glaring holes in some things, that aren't necessarily Linux' or any of the distros fault per se.
One thing is scanner support. Ironically Mac OSX is have this issue as well. I have to fairly nice scanners. One is an HP 4470c and the other is a Umax 4000U. Neither of these are support by Linux, or moreover, are not support "for" Linux by particular venders OEMs.
I the case of both of these devices the manufacturer won't cooperate with the devs at the sane project and release any info so they can build a driver/s.
I have been googling the hell out of this subject and this is why I've come to the conclusion that the devs have to Backwards engineer these devices and are still fight with them. in the case of the HP, it moreover a RealTek issue since the make the chip/components that are used in the HP device. To the devs credit they have tried repeatedly to contact Realtek about this and have gotten the cold shoulder (aka no reply ).
Now I think that, since Linus is coming in to its own, that perhaps the Rep for the Linuc companies should be able to convince thosein charge could be persuaded by Linux/Linux distros to be a littlefriendly. But Ii'm not holding my breath.
I strongly thing the scanner (as well as other common SOHO/SMB devices) software issues need to be addressed. Perhaps have SuSE exec meet with the company and persuad these OEMs to help out a little. Especially since these products (Umax and HP 4470) are no longer sold by HP.
So, what's the big deal for these guys? The devices are no longer sold in the stores - and therefore what difference does it make if the open up the drivers that would just be sitting in the office on a disc. But Oh Well.
<rant off>
Cheers, Curtis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)
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-- David C. Johanson Linux Counter # 116410 Powered by SuSE Linux 7.1 People who behold a phenomenon will often extend their thinking beyond it; people who merely hear about the phenomenon will not be moved to think at all. -- Goethe
participants (8)
-
Curtis Rey -
David Herman -
David Johanson -
david stevenson -
Fergus Wilde -
Frits Wüthrich -
Ken Schneider -
Matthew Johnson