[opensuse] Linux Server Admins - Please Let Me Know Your Thoughts
Today I was approached by management (a different division that handles standards etc) and was told that I have to give a compelling reason of why I need to run Linux instead of the standard "windows". I need to come up with a nice list / document why by tomorrow.. but I'm so irritated right now, that I'm having a hard time formulate something in a professional matter.. So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings.. Thank you. -- If you don't know what you want, you end up with a lot you don't. -Fight Club -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 17:51:53 Ben Kevan wrote: <snip>
So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings..
Google search phrase 'top ten reasons why linux not windows' results: <http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=top+ten+reasons+why+linux+not+windows&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&fp=gxFYct4ZzkE> First page says 'Results 1 - 10 of about 42,400,000' hth & good luck, Carl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:27:06 -0700, Carl Hartung <suselinux@cehartung.com> wrote:
On Monday 03 August 2009 17:51:53 Ben Kevan wrote: <snip>
So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings..
Google search phrase 'top ten reasons why linux not windows'
results:
<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=top+ten+reasons+why+linux+not+windows&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&fp=gxFYct4ZzkE>
First page says 'Results 1 - 10 of about 42,400,000'
hth & good luck,
Carl
Yes, but using some basic generic reasons and not "political" based reasons might not be the best route to go.. I'll poke through a few to see what I can extract out of them.. Boyd, Thank you for your list also.. I'll be shoving some of those suggestions in. Keep them coming.. -- If you don't know what you want, you end up with a lot you don't. -Fight Club -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 15:33 -0700, Ben Kevan wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:27:06 -0700, Carl Hartung <suselinux@cehartung.com> wrote:
On Monday 03 August 2009 17:51:53 Ben Kevan wrote: <snip>
So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings..
Google search phrase 'top ten reasons why linux not windows'
results:
<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=top+ten+reasons+why+linux+not+windows&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&fp=gxFYct4ZzkE>
First page says 'Results 1 - 10 of about 42,400,000'
hth & good luck,
Carl
Yes, but using some basic generic reasons and not "political" based reasons might not be the best route to go.. I'll poke through a few to see what I can extract out of them..
Boyd,
Thank you for your list also.. I'll be shoving some of those suggestions in.
Keep them coming..
The thing of it is, any reason you would use should actually be currently relevant to your work environment, kinda like "the use of Linux on the main/mail/backup server will reduce the constant/high/whatever rebooting and loss of this critical service, as well as saving the company license costs." I constantly get notices that this that or the other server at work is going to be rebooted, during normal work hours, which means we lose those services during the restart times.
In <200908031827.06218.suselinux@cehartung.com>, Carl Hartung wrote:
Google search phrase 'top ten reasons why linux not windows'
results:
<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=top+ten+reasons+why+linux+not+windows&aq=f &oq=&aqi=&fp=gxFYct4ZzkE>
First page says 'Results 1 - 10 of about 42,400,000'
Not all of those are going to be useful. Heck, #8 on the first page is not what the OP is looking for <http://www.builderau.com.au/program/windows/soa/Top-ten-reasons-why- Microsoft-is-a-good-citizen/0,339024644,320267016,00.htm> -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
Subject: [opensuse] Linux Server Admins - Please Let Me Know Your Thoughts Today I was approached by management (a different division that handles standards etc) and was told that I have to give a compelling reason of why I need to run Linux instead of the standard "windows". I need to come up with a nice list / document why by tomorrow.. but I'm so irritated right now, that I'm having a hard time formulate something in a professional matter.. So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here is a good start; http://www.alacos.com/downloads/Top_Ten_Reasons_To_Switch.pdf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 05:39:55 pm James D. Parra wrote:
Here is a good start;
http://www.alacos.com/downloads/Top_Ten_Reasons_To_Switch.pdf
That's the winner, Ben, you pulled it yet? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ben Kevan wrote:
Today I was approached by management (a different division that handles standards etc) and was told that I have to give a compelling reason of why I need to run Linux instead of the standard "windows". I need to come up with a nice list / document why by tomorrow.. but I'm so irritated right now, that I'm having a hard time formulate something in a professional matter..
So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings..
Standard is a nice word. The last time I checked Linux was the standard for efficient and reliable mailservers (Sendmail, Postfix, Exim...), none of them are available under Windows. I would hate to think about trying spam filtering on a windows box. Let's move on to webservers. While Windows has gained quite a bigger part of the cake, the majority of servers still run Apache/Linux. While here a Windows version is available it is still not as efficient and "standard" as the linux version. Let's talk about downtime. My linux boxes need one command to stay all up-to-date. They seldom require a reboot (only when a kernel update is available). I can then schedule a reboot reliable at a convenient time. My windows boxes are notoriously hard to keep up-to-date because I need to reboot them all the time. It is a bit difficult to schedule reliable reboots since the scripting is more difficult and I have to to it every month. :-(( There are lots of reasons why I have both in my company. I am using whatever system fits the requirements best. -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) drobic (.) de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:46:34 -0700, Sandy Drobic <opensuse@drobic.de> wrote: <snip>
There are lots of reasons why I have both in my company. I am using whatever system fits the requirements best.
I should re-iterate this is at the desktop level. On my laptop I run Linux. they are trying to dictate to me that I should give compelling reasons why I need to deviate from the "standard" installation of Windows. So far I have: I feel that being an IT professional I should be able to utilize the tools that help me best perform in my working daily position. This should include but not limited to the Operating System that my machine (standard hardware) is running on. Now that my initial thought is out there, I'd like to pass on some reasonsings: a.) My primary function is that of a Linux Administrator. Being on a Linux OS Based (Standard) Machine allows me to better and more productively support Linux servers since I am using native Linux applications like openSSH, and many other daily used tools. b.) Continued growth in my profession. The Enterprise Linux Operating Systems use code that has been fully tested in Desktop and Community Supported versions of servers. Using these newer versions prior to being implemented into the server field allows me to understand their usage prior to implementing them in the enterprise space. c.) Increased security and stability. Once of the simplest benefits of Open Source is to have increased security and reliability. d.) Re-itterate the point that being able to use native support tools which are not or very loosely avaiable for windows allows me to better support the servers I am responsible for. Since we're going into standards I thought I'd speak more on general standards with Linux and Windows and not arbitrarily defined Bio-Rad Standards: 1.) Windows is NOT an ISO standard 2.) POSIX is an ISO standard for Operating Systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard 3.) Single Unix Specifications (SUS) is a standard required of all UNIX operating systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard 4.) Linux Standard Base (LSB) is a standard for Linux systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard Other instances of "Non-Standard" uses abroad: Where does the dictating of standards to the supporting IT professionals stop? Do we require web developers to remove Opera, Firefox and Safari from their machines because they are not documentated as a standard? Or do we allow them to use it, as it's a vital tool to better do their development and support? Are we going to require Marcom to drop MAC OS because it's not a standard, but rather a better tool to better do their marketing jobs? My point is allowing IT professionals who are self supportive should be allowed to use and install the tools necessary to do their daily functions at their prime productivity rates. -- If you don't know what you want, you end up with a lot you don't. -Fight Club -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Ben Kevan<ben.kevan@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:46:34 -0700, Sandy Drobic <opensuse@drobic.de> wrote: <snip>
There are lots of reasons why I have both in my company. I am using whatever system fits the requirements best.
I should re-iterate this is at the desktop level. On my laptop I run Linux. they are trying to dictate to me that I should give compelling reasons why I need to deviate from the "standard" installation of Windows.
So far I have:
I feel that being an IT professional I should be able to utilize the tools that help me best perform in my working daily position. This should include but not limited to the Operating System that my machine (standard hardware) is running on. Now that my initial thought is out there, I'd like to pass on some reasonsings:
a.) My primary function is that of a Linux Administrator. Being on a Linux OS Based (Standard) Machine allows me to better and more productively support Linux servers since I am using native Linux applications like openSSH, and many other daily used tools. b.) Continued growth in my profession. The Enterprise Linux Operating Systems use code that has been fully tested in Desktop and Community Supported versions of servers. Using these newer versions prior to being implemented into the server field allows me to understand their usage prior to implementing them in the enterprise space. c.) Increased security and stability. Once of the simplest benefits of Open Source is to have increased security and reliability. d.) Re-itterate the point that being able to use native support tools which are not or very loosely avaiable for windows allows me to better support the servers I am responsible for.
Since we're going into standards I thought I'd speak more on general standards with Linux and Windows and not arbitrarily defined Bio-Rad Standards:
1.) Windows is NOT an ISO standard 2.) POSIX is an ISO standard for Operating Systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard 3.) Single Unix Specifications (SUS) is a standard required of all UNIX operating systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard 4.) Linux Standard Base (LSB) is a standard for Linux systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard
Other instances of "Non-Standard" uses abroad:
Where does the dictating of standards to the supporting IT professionals stop? Do we require web developers to remove Opera, Firefox and Safari from their machines because they are not documentated as a standard? Or do we allow them to use it, as it's a vital tool to better do their development and support? Are we going to require Marcom to drop MAC OS because it's not a standard, but rather a better tool to better do their marketing jobs?
My point is allowing IT professionals who are self supportive should be allowed to use and install the tools necessary to do their daily functions at their prime productivity rates.
I might go with: As a full time Linux Admin, industry best practice is to deploy at least 3 servers per major system. ie. Production / QA / Devel. In addition, developers and administrators typically have additional machines they do real R&D work on, thus saving the devel server for tests, etc. that require hardware, databases, SANs, etc. very similar to the production unit. In my role as an linux administrator, I have these very needs. In my case I have chosen to save the company money by using my every day R&D machine as my personal workstation. If the company requires that I also have a Windows based laptop, that is fine, but it in no way eliminates my need for a R&D machine on which to maintain my linux admin skills with little or no risk of impacting core corporate assets. Thus the company providing me an additional windows based laptop is an expense with no gain. Tweak to your need, but you see where I would head. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer Preservation and Forensic processing of Exchange Repositories White Paper - <http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/tng_whitepaper_fpe.html> The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 05:56:43 pm Ben Kevan wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:46:34 -0700, Sandy Drobic <opensuse@drobic.de> wrote: <snip>
There are lots of reasons why I have both in my company. I am using whatever system fits the requirements best.
I should re-iterate this is at the desktop level. On my laptop I run Linux. they are trying to dictate to me that I should give compelling reasons why I need to deviate from the "standard" installation of Windows.
So far I have:
I feel that being an IT professional I should be able to utilize the tools that help me best perform in my working daily position. This should include but not limited to the Operating System that my machine (standard hardware) is running on. Now that my initial thought is out there, I'd like to pass on some reasonsings:
a.) My primary function is that of a Linux Administrator. Being on a Linux OS Based (Standard) Machine allows me to better and more productively support Linux servers since I am using native Linux applications like openSSH, and many other daily used tools. b.) Continued growth in my profession. The Enterprise Linux Operating Systems use code that has been fully tested in Desktop and Community Supported versions of servers. Using these newer versions prior to being implemented into the server field allows me to understand their usage prior to implementing them in the enterprise space. c.) Increased security and stability. Once of the simplest benefits of Open Source is to have increased security and reliability. d.) Re-itterate the point that being able to use native support tools which are not or very loosely avaiable for windows allows me to better support the servers I am responsible for.
Since we're going into standards I thought I'd speak more on general standards with Linux and Windows and not arbitrarily defined Bio-Rad Standards:
1.) Windows is NOT an ISO standard 2.) POSIX is an ISO standard for Operating Systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard 3.) Single Unix Specifications (SUS) is a standard required of all UNIX operating systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard 4.) Linux Standard Base (LSB) is a standard for Linux systems. GNU/Linux, with the right packages installed, is an implementation of this standard
Other instances of "Non-Standard" uses abroad:
Where does the dictating of standards to the supporting IT professionals stop? Do we require web developers to remove Opera, Firefox and Safari from their machines because they are not documentated as a standard? Or do we allow them to use it, as it's a vital tool to better do their development and support? Are we going to require Marcom to drop MAC OS because it's not a standard, but rather a better tool to better do their marketing jobs?
My point is allowing IT professionals who are self supportive should be allowed to use and install the tools necessary to do their daily functions at their prime productivity rates.
5.) Don't you higher-ups have anything more important to do than worry about the OS I prefer on my laptop? Obviously not. You dimwits have been assigned this task because it is widely recognized that your are too damn dumb to pour piss out of your own boots with the directions written on the heels which is exactly the reason why you have been tasked with this important endeavour and blessed me with the privilege of engaging with you in this conversation concerning the procrustean nature of this pedantic corporate inquiry. Now good day sir! -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 00:46 +0200, Sandy Drobic wrote:
Ben Kevan wrote:
Today I was approached by management (a different division that handles standards etc) and was told that I have to give a compelling reason of why I need to run Linux instead of the standard "windows". I need to come up with a nice list / document why by tomorrow.. but I'm so irritated right now, that I'm having a hard time formulate something in a professional matter..
So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings.. Standard is a nice word. The last time I checked Linux was the standard for efficient and reliable mailservers (Sendmail, Postfix, Exim...), none of them are available under Windows.
You're excluding the entire Exchange universe from your "reliable mailservers". Which pretty much sinks this argument. As much as most people on this list may despise Exchange [including me] it is not inherently unreliable - it just *really* needs to be configured by someone who *really* knows what they are doing [I'd assert the same is true for every groupware solution].
I would hate to think about trying spam filtering on a windows box.
This is quite [very?] common and works just fine.
Let's move on to webservers. While Windows has gained quite a bigger part of the cake, the majority of servers still run Apache/Linux. While here a Windows version is available it is still not as efficient and "standard" as the linux version.
This is a flimsy reason. The question for web servers is what is the recommended platform for the specific web services/applications you host.
Let's talk about downtime. My linux boxes need one command to stay all up-to-date. They seldom require a reboot (only when a kernel update is available). I can then schedule a reboot reliable at a convenient time.
The same is true for any recent version of Windows Server.
My windows boxes are notoriously hard to keep up-to-date because I need to reboot them all the time. It is a bit difficult to schedule reliable reboots since the scripting is more difficult and I have to to it every month. :-((
You need to setup a local WSUS service.
There are lots of reasons why I have both in my company. I am using whatever system fits the requirements best.
Which is the best explanation; but to be convincing to management arguments need to be more specific. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 00:46 +0200, Sandy Drobic wrote:
Standard is a nice word. The last time I checked Linux was the standard for efficient and reliable mailservers (Sendmail, Postfix, Exim...), none of them are available under Windows.
You're excluding the entire Exchange universe from your "reliable mailservers". Which pretty much sinks this argument. As much as most people on this list may despise Exchange [including me] it is not inherently unreliable - it just *really* needs to be configured by someone who *really* knows what they are doing [I'd assert the same is true for every groupware solution].
I wasn't talking about groupware or imap servers I mentioned mailservers. I also didn't mention domino which can run on windows. Those are all solutions that can provide basic smtp functionality though never on the same scale an granularity as Postfix.
I would hate to think about trying spam filtering on a windows box.
This is quite [very?] common and works just fine.
Not in my experience.
Let's move on to webservers. While Windows has gained quite a bigger part of the cake, the majority of servers still run Apache/Linux. While here a Windows version is available it is still not as efficient and "standard" as the linux version.
This is a flimsy reason. The question for web servers is what is the recommended platform for the specific web services/applications you host.
That was NOT the question here! The question was "Standard". And that is Apache.
Let's talk about downtime. My linux boxes need one command to stay all up-to-date. They seldom require a reboot (only when a kernel update is available). I can then schedule a reboot reliable at a convenient time.
The same is true for any recent version of Windows Server.
Forget it! I have to maintain Windows servers, and the handling is not really convenient.
My windows boxes are notoriously hard to keep up-to-date because I need to reboot them all the time. It is a bit difficult to schedule reliable reboots since the scripting is more difficult and I have to to it every month. :-((
You need to setup a local WSUS service.
That is already running and has nothing to do with the need to reboot the boxes. It's not so troublesome with the desktops, those are shut off at the end of the day, so rebooting isn't a real problem. But the servers and their need to reboot give me some headaches.
There are lots of reasons why I have both in my company. I am using whatever system fits the requirements best.
Which is the best explanation; but to be convincing to management arguments need to be more specific.
Strange, I thought that was the weakest argument and most irrelevant point. :-)) -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) drobic (.) de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 14:51 -0700, Ben Kevan wrote:
Today I was approached by management (a different division that handles standards etc) and was told that I have to give a compelling reason of why I need to run Linux instead of the standard "windows". I need to come up with a nice list / document why by tomorrow.. but I'm so irritated right now, that I'm having a hard time formulate something in a professional matter.. So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings..
What services are you providing? Systems do not exist to run Operating Systems, they exist to provide services. The best business case is to use the platform most suitable for providing the required services. So without that information there is no way to answer this question. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 04:51:53 pm Ben Kevan wrote:
Today I was approached by management (a different division that handles standards etc) and was told that I have to give a compelling reason of why I need to run Linux instead of the standard "windows". I need to come up with a nice list / document why by tomorrow.. but I'm so irritated right now, that I'm having a hard time formulate something in a professional matter..
So I'm reaching out to the sys admins here asking for some help and lists of some good reasonings..
Thank you.
Ben, Here is 15 minutes of brain storming off-the-cuff: Standards Complaint Mail Packages (google windows non-compliant [pick your topic]) GPL (eliminates litigation threat from alleged license violations) Secure http, ssh, sftp (pick anything else that is a joke on windows) Flexibility in use (fax services, web services, mail) Flexibility in deployment (ease of complex customization for any situation that may present itself) Cost damnit cost! (google linux windows operation costs) Also, just add up what it would take to fill a windows box with an Office Suite, Photoshop, MS Server [you would have to buy every piece], Compilers, CAD (qcad, inkscape), Desktop Publishing, web authoring, fax server, etc.. Redundancy (spare machine easily configured to replace a failed server w/o interruption) Data Security/Redundancy - native RAID (hardware/software) & LVM support Virus susceptibility OpenSource - not tied (or shackled to proprietary technology) Worldwide Software validation (comparison of servers running Linux v Windows just to validate number of Linux server in use, I know MS will have more, but the Linux # won't be trivial) Hopefully it will provoke a few more ideas in your brain. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Ben Kevan -
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. -
Carl Hartung -
David C. Rankin -
Greg Freemyer -
James D. Parra -
Mike McMullin -
Sandy Drobic