[opensuse] 13.1 - systemd-lite? How to know what to start/enable via systemclt v. init-scripts - openSUSE Users

[opensuse] 13.1 - systemd-lite? How to know what to start/enable via systemclt v. init-scripts

David C. Rankin

15 Jul 2014 15 Jul '14

06:26

All, What are the rules for 13.1 concerning what should be enabled through systemctl and what should be launched via init-script and set through chkconfig? I understand 13.1 uses sysv compatibility and retains consolekit, and init-scripts, but that is a bit confusing considering there may be service files and init-scripts for some packages. My prior systemd experience has been with my Archlinux installs. Arch moved to a pure-systemd setup over a year ago. 13.1 is my first install that implements systemd in somewhat of a compatibility mode. For example: OpenSuSE 13.1: $ l /etc/init.d total 456 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 12 20:49 boot.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc0.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc1.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 14 20:28 rc2.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 14 20:28 rc3.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc4.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 14 20:28 rc5.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc6.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rcS.d -rwxr--r-- 1 root root 3649 Feb 14 05:17 acpid -rwxr--r-- 1 root root 520 Jul 12 20:03 after.local -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5155 Nov 28 2013 alsasound -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3885 Mar 11 05:20 autofs -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1217 Feb 28 06:22 avahi-daemon <snip> Archlinux: $ l /etc/init.d ls: cannot access /etc/init.d: No such file or directory In arch all services were required to be started via systemctl and all init-scripts were migrated (or upstream provided) service files. Now I find myself wondering: "What's the rule for 13.1?" When I configure mariaDB, do I use the service file or the init-script? What about for spamd, or hddtemp? Is there any penalty in overhead if I choose one way over the other? What say the systemd gurus? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

15 Jul 15 Jul

10:06

David C. Rankin wrote:

...

All,

What are the rules for 13.1 concerning what should be enabled through systemctl and what should be launched via init-script and set through chkconfig?

Everything through systemctl. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

10:45

On 07/15/2014 02:26 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

For example:

OpenSuSE 13.1:

$ l /etc/init.d total 456

Have you looked what in there? running 'grep -R systemctl /etc/init.d/rc*' shows scripts that make use of 'systemctl'. Yes, there is a bit of backward compatibility, dealing with things lie ALSA, but perhaps you can be more specific and drill down and identify the items that don't have any refernce to systemd (such as 'alsasound' and tell us how Archllinux does that with pure systemd. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

16 Jul 16 Jul

08:15

On 07/15/2014 05:45 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 07/15/2014 02:26 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...
For example:

OpenSuSE 13.1:

$ l /etc/init.d total 456

Have you looked what in there?

running 'grep -R systemctl /etc/init.d/rc*' shows scripts that make use of 'systemctl'.

Yes, there is a bit of backward compatibility, dealing with things lie ALSA, but perhaps you can be more specific and drill down and identify the items that don't have any refernce to systemd (such as 'alsasound' and tell us how Archllinux does that with pure systemd.

Having init-scripts call systemd isn't quite the same as using systemd exclusively. If so, 13.1 would not need consolekit. The primary issue is correct 'user session tracking' to enable user access to all devices (sound, udisk2 control, etc..) without having to rely on consolekit. This is no easy task for any distribution. Arch has taken care of this for kde4 and gnome, but it is largely up to the display manager to implement the port to meet systemd criteria (multiseat, etc.): http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-desktop-environment... This is no simple matter and I suspect an area of discussion for 13.2 (and a large part of the reason it will have extended development time). In building Trinity for Arch, this is currently where TDE is stuck regarding use in a pure-systemd environment: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=1998 I'm not sure where kde4/kdm is in implementation, but Arch has it working. The initial kd4/kdm discussion and proposed kdm multi-seat patch were here: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/112294/ I haven't checked progress in a couple of months. Basically, this user-sessions are the challenge of moving to a pure-systemd environment. I don't know who is spearheading this for openSuSE, but they have their hands full. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

17:48

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 4:15 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Having init-scripts call systemd isn't quite the same as using systemd exclusively. If so, 13.1 would not need consolekit.

The primary issue is correct 'user session tracking' to enable user access to all devices (sound, udisk2 control, etc..) without having to rely on consolekit. This is no easy task for any distribution. Arch has taken care of this for kde4 and gnome, but it is largely up to the display manager to implement the port to meet systemd criteria (multiseat, etc.):

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-display-managers/

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/writing-desktop-environment...

This is no simple matter and I suspect an area of discussion for 13.2 (and a large part of the reason it will have extended development time).

fyi: The delay had nothing to do with desktop managers per se. It was proposed because the overall complexity of the openSUSE codebase had gotten to the point that the old integration testing methodology was a heavy burden on the core team. The new methodology added rings of integration (staging repos) and automated QA testing. All reports I had seen about the new methodology had been good until a couple days ago. It seems that among other problems the automated QA testing was all taking place with 64-bit architecture. Unfortunately a major 32-bit bug got into factory and now it is badly broken. (Read Coolo's email if you want it from the horse's mouth.) http://markmail.org/message/lrqzetw7zavcdlnt Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

17 Jul 17 Jul

16:47

On 07/16/2014 12:48 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

fyi: The delay had nothing to do with desktop managers per se. It was proposed because the overall complexity of the openSUSE codebase had gotten to the point that the old integration testing methodology was a heavy burden on the core team. The new methodology added rings of integration (staging repos) and automated QA testing.

All reports I had seen about the new methodology had been good until a couple days ago. It seems that among other problems the automated QA testing was all taking place with 64-bit architecture. Unfortunately a major 32-bit bug got into factory and now it is badly broken. (Read Coolo's email if you want it from the horse's mouth.)

http://markmail.org/message/lrqzetw7zavcdlnt

Greg

Thanks Greg, I remember when the ringed QA path was first proposed on factory several years ago. The current i586 issues look interesting, and hopefully resolvable without too much backtracking. I hate it when we get outsmarted by our own technology :p -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez

19 Jul 19 Jul

14:32

El 17/07/14 12:47, David C. Rankin escribió:

...

I remember when the ringed QA path was first proposed on factory several years ago. The current i586 issues look interesting, and hopefully resolvable without too much backtracking. I hate it when we get outsmarted by our own technology :p

We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will.. why ? there will be no more 32 bit x86 enterprise distributions, effectively removing the profit incentive to maintain this stuff in working order. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd

21 Jul 21 Jul

09:19

Le 19/07/2014 16:32, Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :

...

We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will..

I understand the problem, but I have lot of 32 bits computers still working. It would not be such a problem if the last 32 bit version get sufficient long term support :-( good computer hardware last very long :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:50

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-21 a las 11:19 +0200, jdd escribió:

...

Le 19/07/2014 16:32, Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :

...
We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will..

I understand the problem, but I have lot of 32 bits computers still working.

I have a few here, too. I suppose that there are millions of 32 bit machines out there, still working.

...

It would not be such a problem if the last 32 bit version get sufficient long term support :-(

good computer hardware last very long :-)

And one of the "pro" reasons of using Linux instead of Windows was that Linux gave new life to older hardware, without forcing you to keep buying new machines in order to get mandatory software updates. Like the bunch of inmigrants that recently replaced XP with Linux: they are most of them using 32 bit machines (ie, XP vintage machines). - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPM8JsACgkQja8UbcUWM1wqpAEAiraC7s2mVNypHSGbJ7uEgB++ DRgRFGwxAF3zEayvxE4A/1vssLJJ024lz2quf/f9dFXVe6ssuVxd01GF9Zaq9+fY =y2VY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

James Knott

12:01

On 07/21/2014 06:50 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

El 2014-07-21 a las 11:19 +0200, jdd escribió:

...
Le 19/07/2014 16:32, Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :

...
...
We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will..

...
I understand the problem, but I have lot of 32 bits computers still working.

I have a few here, too. I suppose that there are millions of 32 bit machines out there, still working.

...
It would not be such a problem if the last 32 bit version get sufficient long term support :-(

...
good computer hardware last very long :-)

And one of the "pro" reasons of using Linux instead of Windows was that Linux gave new life to older hardware, without forcing you to keep buying new machines in order to get mandatory software updates.

Like the bunch of inmigrants that recently replaced XP with Linux: they are most of them using 32 bit machines (ie, XP vintage machines).

Hi Carlos. One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

17:57

* James Knott [07-21-14 08:41]:

...

Hi Carlos.

One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is?

Might/must be something on your config as I do see his msgs quoted properly, or at least as I would expect. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

22 Jul 22 Jul

11:38

On 07/21/2014 01:57 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...
Hi Carlos.

One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is? Might/must be something on your config as I do see his msgs quoted

* James Knott [07-21-14 08:41]: properly, or at least as I would expect.

Then why is he the only one this occurs with? I certainly can see what's quoted in your message. Also, I don't see any settings that would affect this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Content-ID: El 2014-07-22 a las 07:38 -0400, James Knott escribió:

...

On 07/21/2014 01:57 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* James Knott [07-21-14 08:41]:

...

...
Might/must be something on your config as I do see his msgs quoted properly, or at least as I would expect.

Then why is he the only one this occurs with? I certainly can see what's quoted in your message. Also, I don't see any settings that would affect this.

Two differences: I use Alpine I use inline PGP signature. Do you have enigmail installed? - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPOmVQACgkQja8UbcUWM1zxrQD+PIlAyC5IOT5kbsfMigvslROK c1ujH+RqPAvccb8V10EA/jQfu69TLQ3gMsFL4EhDEClSvPt9vZ8Wmf6C5nL3Oawo =sImm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

James Knott

23 Jul 23 Jul

16:06

On 07/22/2014 01:03 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I use Alpine I use inline PGP signature.

Do you have enigmail installed?

Yes, however, as I mentioned, the problem occurs when you use Alpine, but not Thunderbird. But your reply this time was in Alpine and appears OK. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

21 Jul 21 Jul

22:18

On 7/21/2014 5:01 AM, James Knott wrote:

...

On 07/21/2014 06:50 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
El 2014-07-21 a las 11:19 +0200, jdd escribió:

...
Le 19/07/2014 16:32, Cristian Rodríguez a écrit :

...
...
We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will..

...
I understand the problem, but I have lot of 32 bits computers still working.

I have a few here, too. I suppose that there are millions of 32 bit machines out there, still working.

...
It would not be such a problem if the last 32 bit version get sufficient long term support :-(

...
good computer hardware last very long :-)

And one of the "pro" reasons of using Linux instead of Windows was that Linux gave new life to older hardware, without forcing you to keep buying new machines in order to get mandatory software updates.

Like the bunch of inmigrants that recently replaced XP with Linux: they are most of them using 32 bit machines (ie, XP vintage machines).

Hi Carlos.

One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is?

What ever it is, I suggest its on your end James, as it all looks good to me. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Content-ID: El 2014-07-21 a las 08:01 -0400, James Knott escribió:

...

On 07/21/2014 06:50 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Hi Carlos.

One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is?

It must be that your client has a setting to hide quotes. They are there, I can see them with Alpine or Thunderbird, no issues. Or your client has an issue with pgp signatures :-? - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPNooIACgkQja8UbcUWM1xXhwEAhYLPGFGfYQHbMU/tiRMifeZ4 1Hi7LLK5HzlMYgwvzgABAJtcVJctlORUVlPEShq4bT7u9S9pitgirCcN6dKqOnVo =4jxM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Gustav Degreef

22 Jul 22 Jul

10:49

...

Content-ID:

El 2014-07-21 a las 08:01 -0400, James Knott escribiÃ³:

...
On 07/21/2014 06:50 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Hi Carlos.

...
One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is?

It must be that your client has a setting to hide quotes. They are there, I can see them with Alpine or Thunderbird, no issues.

Or your client has an issue with pgp signatures :-? I've had the same issues with some of Carlos' messages (not this one

On 07/22/2014 01:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: though). Some show proper quotes, some don't. Usually I delete the mail once read, so can't be more specific. Using TB 24.6.0. os 12.3. Gustav. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

14:26

On 07/22/2014 06:49 AM, Gustav Degreef wrote:

...

I've had the same issues with some of Carlos' messages (not this one though). Some show proper quotes, some don't. Usually I delete the mail once read, so can't be more specific. Using TB 24.6.0. os 12.3. Gustav.

I have noticed that he sent the problem messages with Alpine. Those he sent with Thunderbird are fine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:08

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-22 a las 12:49 +0200, Gustav Degreef escribió:

...

I've had the same issues with some of Carlos' messages (not this one though). Some show proper quotes, some don't. Usually I delete the mail once read, so can't be more specific. Using TB 24.6.0. os 12.3.

My Th 24.6.0 in 13.1 displays the emails just fine. Do you have enigmail installed? It is an extension, should come by default with openSUSE version of Thunderbird. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPOmpwACgkQja8UbcUWM1xWkgD+Nlik5pQ0aeD/izm7jXoVQf33 3mX/aiYSFc1Uowfm6j8A/2DcuLqMfFq2wF92ZqKgiCQ31nd7oS8062n4L09o71RP =Ki/3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Gustav Degreef

25 Jul 25 Jul

12:28

On 07/22/2014 07:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

El 2014-07-22 a las 12:49 +0200, Gustav Degreef escribiÃ³:

...
I've had the same issues with some of Carlos' messages (not this one though). Some show proper quotes, some don't. Usually I delete the mail once read, so can't be more specific. Using TB 24.6.0. os 12.3.

My Th 24.6.0 in 13.1 displays the emails just fine.

Do you have enigmail installed? It is an extension, should come by default with openSUSE version of Thunderbird.

-- Cheers Carlos E. R.

Sorry not to reply earlier. Got buried under other tasks. I recently installed enigmail, but got in over my head and can not configure it properly in TB. Sorry, I'm in very unfamiliar territory. Not sure I can give any further help on this topic, and I'm traveling for some time. It's not bothering me at all, just commented because it seemed so different. Gustav. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

15:34

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-25 a las 14:28 +0200, Gustav Degreef escribió:

...

On 07/22/2014 07:08 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
Do you have enigmail installed? It is an extension, should come by default with openSUSE version of Thunderbird.

...

Sorry not to reply earlier. Got buried under other tasks. I recently installed enigmail, but got in over my head and can not configure it properly in TB. Sorry, I'm in very unfamiliar territory. Not sure I can give any further help on this topic, and I'm traveling for some time. It's not bothering me at all, just commented because it seemed so different. Gustav.

Having it installed should be enough, I think. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPSePwACgkQja8UbcUWM1ynigD/cn9r7Z5uRWVSvgeJpmA2TvhW XDjP0AC1nyOKOjXqN0EBAIJnReb1AaGS8p83HOXB0+CMaKIdZVegTPezvZqzOESy =58cR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Carlos E. R.

22 Jul 22 Jul

17:12

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-22 a las 12:49 +0200, Gustav Degreef escribió:

...

I've had the same issues with some of Carlos' messages (not this one though).

That one had: User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (LSU 23 2013-08-11) X-MIME-Notice: attachments may have been removed from this message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; Content-ID: Now lets find one that does not work and compare them. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPOm5QACgkQja8UbcUWM1wpTAD+MxInimBeYWtuTIq17p9Fw/60 8Z8Q9kWXcZAywk7nVeMA/30Z5hLI2JfcqpmCIcocMNwfHTdkpNSIOuDMXWwHdW9f =eLA+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

James Knott

12:34

On 07/21/2014 07:30 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Hi Carlos.

One thing I've noticed lately is that your replies don't show which part is quoted and which is your own. However, it does show when I reply to you. Any idea why that is?

It must be that your client has a setting to hide quotes. They are there, I can see them with Alpine or Thunderbird, no issues.

Or your client has an issue with pgp signatures :-?

One thing I've noticed is the problem messages are sent with Alpine, but those sent with Thunderbird appear fine. Is there something in Alpine that's causing this? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

21 Jul 21 Jul

11:52

New subject: [opensuse] drop i586? (was: 13.1 - systemd-lite...)

On 2014-07-19 10:32 (GMT-0400) Cristian Rodríguez composed:

...

We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will.. why ? there will be no more 32 bit x86 enterprise distributions, effectively removing the profit incentive to maintain this stuff in working order.

Right. Our landfills don't have enough perfectly usefull stuff polluting them, so let the FOSS people help fill them up, and give the economy a boost by forcing people to buy newer puters to replace perfectly good and working ones. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd

13:40

New subject: [opensuse] drop i586?

Le 21/07/2014 13:52, Felix Miata a écrit :

...

Right. Our landfills don't have enough perfectly usefull stuff polluting them, so let the FOSS people help fill them up, and give the economy a boost by forcing people to buy newer puters to replace perfectly good and working ones.

I don't think we have to take such ironic position. the OP said "entreprise distributions", and right what enterprise do still buy 32bit computers? If I have lot of them it's because big enterprises gave them as gift for my Linux User Groups (gift, but escaping a tax). What I think is than Evergreen needs more man power and if it could last two more years (for a total of 5, sending us to 2018), it would be sufficient, these old hardware do accept 13.1 - some of them are already 8 years old :-) kde works perfectly at the expense of some ram We could even use some crowdfunding, I'm ready to pay some bucks to keep it alive jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

13:41

New subject: [opensuse] drop i586?

On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 03:40:27PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Le 21/07/2014 13:52, Felix Miata a écrit :

...
Right. Our landfills don't have enough perfectly usefull stuff polluting them, so let the FOSS people help fill them up, and give the economy a boost by forcing people to buy newer puters to replace perfectly good and working ones.

I don't think we have to take such ironic position.

the OP said "entreprise distributions", and right what enterprise do still buy 32bit computers?

If I have lot of them it's because big enterprises gave them as gift for my Linux User Groups (gift, but escaping a tax).

What I think is than Evergreen needs more man power and if it could last two more years (for a total of 5, sending us to 2018), it would be sufficient, these old hardware do accept 13.1 - some of them are already 8 years old :-) kde works perfectly at the expense of some ram

We could even use some crowdfunding, I'm ready to pay some bucks to keep it alive

As long as people continue to maintain and keep i586 running I do not see why we want to leave it. As side note, ppc32 and ppc64 are also still active, same as arm and there the number of users is very small. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

20:08

New subject: [opensuse] drop i586?

On Mon, 2014-07-21 at 15:40 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Le 21/07/2014 13:52, Felix Miata a écrit :

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Right. Our landfills don't have enough perfectly usefull stuff polluting them, so let the FOSS people help fill them up, and give the economy a boost by forcing people to buy newer puters to replace perfectly good and working ones.

I don't think we have to take such ironic position.

the OP said "entreprise distributions", and right what enterprise do still buy 32bit computers?

No, but at our ministry the virtualized machines are 32-bit. Dropping 32-bit will not be taken kindly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Pablo Dotro

22:03

New subject: [opensuse] drop i586?

Greetings! On 07/21/2014 05:08 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

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On Mon, 2014-07-21 at 15:40 +0200, jdd wrote:

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Le 21/07/2014 13:52, Felix Miata a écrit :

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Right. Our landfills don't have enough perfectly usefull stuff polluting them, so let the FOSS people help fill them up, and give the economy a boost by forcing people to buy newer puters to replace perfectly good and working ones. I don't think we have to take such ironic position.

the OP said "entreprise distributions", and right what enterprise do still buy 32bit computers? Many "enterprises" and governaments still have (and need to maintain for years to come) 32 bit systems. This is particularly the case in countries where IT is not as accessible or developed as in the US or Europe. No, but at our ministry the virtualized machines are 32-bit. Dropping 32-bit will not be taken kindly.

I have a lot of 32 bits machines... virtual and real, at my lab at UBA. -- Pablo M. Dotro pdotro@df.uba.ar Laboratorio de Ondas y Termodinámica Departamento de Física (FCEyN - UBA) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Gustav Degreef

13:48

New subject: [opensuse] drop i586?

On 2014-07-19 10:32 (GMT-0400) Cristian Rodríguez composed:

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We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will.. why ? there will be no more 32 bit x86 enterprise distributions, effectively removing the profit incentive to maintain this stuff in working order.

We have six computers, two 64 bit and four 32. Three of the 4, 32 bit machines are in regular and daily use (I have os on three of them). I believe that much of the developing world still uses mostly 32 bit (hardware and software). Dropping i586 would cut out a lot of people. And is opensuse mainly an enterprise distro? Gustav

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

22:28

On 7/19/2014 7:32 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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El 17/07/14 12:47, David C. Rankin escribió:

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I remember when the ringed QA path was first proposed on factory several years ago. The current i586 issues look interesting, and hopefully resolvable without too much backtracking. I hate it when we get outsmarted by our own technology :p

We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will.. why ? there will be no more 32 bit x86 enterprise distributions, effectively removing the profit incentive to maintain this stuff in working order.

Profit incentive? Not having to replace a perfectly good machine with new hardware that won't do the job any better should be incentive enough for the owner to maintain it in working order. Now as to the distro maintaining i586, you could make the case that the tasks assigned to Pentium class older machines would probably run just as well with i386 installs, but since that isn't supported either, killing off i586 just drops too many machines. Too soon. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

22 Jul 22 Jul

07:37

On 07/19/2014 09:32 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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We should drop the i586 port.. stop producing it before it becomes a pain as it surely will.. why ? there will be no more 32 bit x86 enterprise distributions, effectively removing the profit incentive to maintain this stuff in working order.

There sure are a lot of i586 boxes in the world and probably will be for another decade. It would be awful sad for a distro to say, "Sorry, but I don't see the profit in it for us..." Especially a established distro that has always catered to both. Seems like Linus should be turning over in his bed (not dead yet) That being said, suse can probably do i586 smarter. As long as the kernels remain backwards compatible (which they should for the reasonable lifetime of 32-bit) focus should be on some type of build layer/build system that can retain the needed 32 bit functionality without having i586 remain an equal partner with x86_64 in release development as far as driving 1/2 the development effort. At that point, i586 releases could tag along and contain all packages that continue to build on the platform, but not allow i586 to block or delay planned releases if x86_64 is ready by the target date. Just about all CPUs out there that are P4 equivalent or better, are still solid boxes for everything desktop/server related, except maybe for large builds (but just from a compile-time standpoint), etc. I still have a number running as fax-servers, file-servers and backup machines. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16 Jul 16 Jul

16:43

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-15 a las 06:45 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:

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On 07/15/2014 02:26 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

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For example:

OpenSuSE 13.1:

$ l /etc/init.d total 456

Have you looked what in there?

running 'grep -R systemctl /etc/init.d/rc*' shows scripts that make use of 'systemctl'.

But there are some rc scripts that don't, despite there being a native systemd service file in the system. And there are some scripts that systemd can not enable/disable - vmware is one. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPGq7MACgkQja8UbcUWM1xIkAD+P6ESjuqiixZu4+vg6MV5DKNi Q6O8ElDWddcXd39GUzoA/0jU923+L2VGQke21m7K4cx7Y8SBHImTxOZB3Dveh62I =sIqB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Ken Schneider - openSUSE

15 Jul 15 Jul

14:14

On 07/15/2014 02:26 AM, David C. Rankin pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

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All,

What are the rules for 13.1 concerning what should be enabled through systemctl and what should be launched via init-script and set through chkconfig? I understand 13.1 uses sysv compatibility and retains consolekit, and init-scripts, but that is a bit confusing considering there may be service files and init-scripts for some packages.

My prior systemd experience has been with my Archlinux installs. Arch moved to a pure-systemd setup over a year ago. 13.1 is my first install that implements systemd in somewhat of a compatibility mode. For example:

I think the preferred way is to use systemd via systemctl. On thing I found quite useful is systemctl is tab awaremeaning you can use to tab key to complete commands. I also use "systemctl start <tab><tab> to see what services are not running and available to be started. You can also use this feature with stop, enable and disable. comes in quite handy, I don't remember who first suggested it on this list. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

16 Jul 16 Jul

08:17

On 07/15/2014 09:14 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

I think the preferred way is to use systemd via systemctl. On thing I found quite useful is systemctl is tab awaremeaning you can use to tab key to complete commands. I also use "systemctl start <tab><tab> to see what services are not running and available to be started. You can also use this feature with stop, enable and disable. comes in quite handy, I don't remember who first suggested it on this list.

I cheat too: ~/.bashrc aliases ## systemd aliases alias lsd='ls -1 /usr/lib/systemd/system/' #list systemd services alias lsde='ls -1 l1 /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/' # list enabled if test "$UID" -eq 0 ; then alias sc='systemctl' # cut down typing alias scn='systemctl --no-pager' alias scdr='systemctl daemon-reload' alias jc='journalctl' alias jcn='journalctl --no-pager' alias jcnl='journalctl --no-pager --full' alias jcnlf='journalctl --no-pager --full -f' else alias sc='sudo systemctl' # cut down typing alias scn='sudo systemctl --no-pager' alias scdr='sudo systemctl daemon-reload' alias jc='sudo journalctl' alias jcn='sudo journalctl --no-pager' alias jcnl='sudo journalctl --no-pager --full' alias jcnlf='sudo journalctl --no-pager --full -f' fi It really helps with the typing. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:45

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-15 a las 10:14 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE escribió:

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On thing I found quite useful is systemctl is tab awaremeaning you can use to tab key to complete commands. I also use "systemctl start <tab><tab> to see what services are not running and available to be started. You can also use this feature with stop, enable and disable. comes in quite handy, I don't remember who first suggested it on this list.

True, except that some do not appear. If you don't know better, you think the service does not exist, when it does. So, it is not too reliable. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPGrCIACgkQja8UbcUWM1yP6AD/bJbfOarhgt4lJSP+rLncuoxT Cz2si7dRBh5+2IN5zHIA/RWlN4kHLHnGzs8jI8G/XUvbkivvg974+bi5Nx+jI/3w =zGD4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Cristian Rodríguez

15 Jul 15 Jul

17:14

El 15/07/14 02:26, David C. Rankin escribió:

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OpenSuSE 13.1:

$ l /etc/init.d total 456 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 12 20:49 boot.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc0.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc1.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 14 20:28 rc2.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 14 20:28 rc3.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc4.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jul 14 20:28 rc5.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rc6.d drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Sep 27 2013 rcS.d -rwxr--r-- 1 root root 3649 Feb 14 05:17 acpid -rwxr--r-- 1 root root 520 Jul 12 20:03 after.local -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5155 Nov 28 2013 alsasound -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3885 Mar 11 05:20 autofs -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1217 Feb 28 06:22 avahi-daemon <snip>

Most of those scripts should go away, *except* the .local ones.

...

Archlinux:

$ l /etc/init.d ls: cannot access /etc/init.d: No such file or directory

This is because Archlinux is the only distribution where sanity prevailed over politics and the desire of backward compatibility. Just use systemctl for everything. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

17 Jul 17 Jul

12:16

On 07/15/2014 01:14 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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This is because Archlinux is the only distribution where sanity prevailed over politics and the desire of backward compatibility.

Oh WOW! Tempting ... -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:47

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-17 a las 08:16 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:

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On 07/15/2014 01:14 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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This is because Archlinux is the only distribution where sanity prevailed over politics and the desire of backward compatibility.

Oh WOW!

Tempting ...

In this particular case, no, not really >:-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPH/jMACgkQja8UbcUWM1wPuQD+J6ydJ7XcO/u0UiuLfFTtaBW7 3TPxrHKNsv0MqJRKzUwA/08u40bQfViM+CE6n++E8xoQHiMXOnLXVTTqPlEMvcpF =K4tF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

David C. Rankin

17:06

On 07/17/2014 07:16 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 07/15/2014 01:14 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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This is because Archlinux is the only distribution where sanity prevailed over politics and the desire of backward compatibility.

Oh WOW!

Tempting ...

I've been running it a 4-5 boxes since 2009. Alan McRae is the architect behind it. It is an amazing distro, bleeding edge, all done based on fundamental Linux principles. But, get ready for an install *without* an installer. Arch has its place and openSuSE has its place. Neither are "better" than the other, they just fill different niches in the Linux market. I encourage everyone to install/use Arch, and do so for at least 6 months, so you learn the way the distro works and not just how to run it. It is a different philosophy that produces a top quality distro on 1/1000 the budget opensuse does :) Just as openSuSE has its brilliant parts, Arch has its brilliant parts as well. The only downfall for Arch is that development takes precedence over backwards compatibility. So it may not be as well suited for a long-term server setup as other distros. That being said, I've run both my office and home production servers on it since 2009. It is well worth the learning experience. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (17)

Anton Aylward
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Cristian Rodríguez
David C. Rankin
Felix Miata
Greg Freemyer
Gustav Degreef
Hans Witvliet
James Knott
jdd
John Andersen
Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Marcus Meissner
Pablo Dotro
Patrick Shanahan
Per Jessen