On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

I, too, encourage people to write down lists of features that are either missing or that are wanted as new ones. This is not only the constructive approach, but the only possible one if improvement is the aim. I have stated at least once in this discussion that it is only for us who use these programs and functions to tell the developers about what is needed and wanted.

This has been done and done and done and done and done again. To be blunt, I don't have the time to continue to do this. KDE4 has laudable goals, but until I see a compelling reason to use it, I won't. I probably won't even install 11.1 other than for testing considering how badly some people have experienced it. If you want to go through all the features of KDE3 and compare them to KDE4 and then create a site that we can vote on the features that are missing, I will be sure to add my input. Till then, I will continue to make use of KDE3, a solid, stable, feature rich system and not a bug ridden, featrure incomplete version that is suppsoed to replace it.

My purpose behind my discussing this has been to draw attention to the need to maintain functionality in the new KDE version. I know of no other way to draw attention to something than to point out the faults and to suggest that they be remedied.

And we have repeatedly tried to do this. I'm not trying to bash you, but anytime a discussion comes up with ANY kind of comparision of KDE3 vs KDE4 it turns into a mess with name calling and other useless comments about how KDE4 is so great and that we should stop bitching and just use it. I'm not a dev, so I can't comment on whether a real rewrite was absolutely neccessary. But, like I always point out, compelling reason. Why do I run Linux on my Macs? Because MacOS doesn't give me any compelling reasons to use it and it costs $$$. $129 every 2 years is too much. I use openSUSE and Linux because it allows me to use my computers the way I want. I have some almost new hardware and some really old stuff. I'm typing this on a Thinkpad laptop with a P3/1Ghz and 256mB RAM while I have 4 ssh sessions into my server running 2 movie re-encodes and doing file maintenance in the other 2. I've got 2 directories on my server mounted on this and 1 directory on this laptop mounted on the server to copy files with. If I was using MacOS or Windows I'd barely be able to do anything. Not so with KDE3/openSUSE 11.0. However, it doesn't look like KDE4/openSUSE 11.1 shows any compelling reason to update as it is now, so I will continue to use what works. 11.0 was such a worthwhile upgrade over 10.3 in so many ways. 11.1 doesn't look like it has many compelling reasons for an upgrade so far. And, as an almost 10 year supported of SuSE, I hate to say that. 10.1 was an unmitigated dissaster. I hope 11.1 isn't anywhere near as bad, but it's showing it's problems very early. I had 11.0 on my machines before it was even released. I haven't even bothered to try 11.1 on any of my machines other than a quick install of a KDE4 livecd. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:46 AM, MikeDL wrote:

You will be relieved to know there is such a site: bugs.kde.org! It works by having people file specific reports on problems they have. Once you have submitted a report, you can vote for them, get your friends to vote for them, and if enough people agree the report will rise on the hated bug list and get addressed by the development team. Considering the vast number of problems you have with KDE 4, I'm sure you could file many such reports. If you will post bug numbers for them, I will go read each one and vote for any I agree with. I have 70 points unallocated at the moment so I can help with several of your problems.

Again, lack of time. And, Would I have to file against Novell's bugzilla as well? Again, that's not a comprehensive list, but only the "missing" features that people have noticed and actually filed would be listed. You would think that the KDE devs would have some idea of what their list of features are since they wrote and maintained it(allowing of coruse for the fact that people have come and gone).

However, since you say this "has been done and done and done and done again" you perhaps already have those bug report numbers?

Nope. And, as it stands now, I really don't know that I care. So long as KDE3 works for me I will use it. When I have time, I will do a fresh install of KDE4 and see what happens. But I just don't have time to deal with it. I was unemployed during the 11.0 process and had a lot of time to devote to it. My situation has changed for the better. Further, I've had to scale back the amount of time I can even devote to this, so I'm not as available to help out as I like.h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 26 December 2008 10:55:45 Larry Stotler wrote:

Again, lack of time.  And, Would I have to file against Novell's bugzilla as well?

Cutting out even half of your postings here about your KDE 4 dissatisfaction would make time to file a dozen problem reports.  Since it seems like you aren't happy with KDE 4 (rather than Novell's packaging of it) then bugs.kde.org is the right place to file reports. Since you aren't a developer, about the only thing you can do to contribute back to the KDE community is file specific problem reports.  Do so and you'll probably get support here and elsewhere.  Otherwise, why do you think KDE should care? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Friday 26 December 2008 01:23:46 pm MikeDL wrote:

...

Otherwise, why do you think KDE should care?

Because scaring off potential users makes damage.

'Sure does and a LOT of us are doing just that! It'll be at least 4.2 if not 4.3 before I start migrating users to a new KDE. At this point, I'm not going to migrate any client to 11.1 until there are some fixes for some noted problems...like the DVD/k3b/"multimedia" issues, better sound support for Intel embedded audio, and better performance for Intel 3-digit video. 'I'll make less money, but have a LOT less to do for awhile as well. ;) Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

Nope. And, as it stands now, I really don't know that I care. So long as KDE3 works for me I will use it. When I have time, I will do a fresh install of KDE4 and see what happens. But I just don't have time to deal with it. I was unemployed during the 11.0 process and had a lot of time to devote to it. My situation has changed for the better. Further, I've had to scale back the amount of time I can even devote to this, so I'm not as available to help out as I like.h

But you should care - KDE 4 is and should be the version to be developed in the future. Thus it is important to ensure that it holds high configurability and functionality - and of course is made to be user-friendly. There is no contradictions here - quite the contrary! Thus, you and others are encouraged to write down bug lists and feature requests. I have already noted some reduction in the configurability in the Personal Settings, and the fact that both Konqueror 4 and Dolphin lacks such an important function as the capability of showing meta data for every file. We need to make such lists in order to give proper and constructive feedback to the developers - even though it is important to discuss these matters to draw attention to them, the developers are all the time dependent on input from users. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

Hi Per, No one mentioned places where one can look how work is progressing and point to the features that are needed:

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE4 http://bugs.kde.org http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3 http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Ideas/11.1 http://bugzilla.novell.com

Hi Rajko, Thank you very much! The number 3 link was spot on! Please, encourage many others to use these addresses to give constructive feedback. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

But you should care - KDE 4 is and should be the version to be developed in the future. Thus it is important to ensure that it holds high configurability and functionality - and of course is made to be user-friendly. There is no contradictions here - quite the contrary!

The problem is that the vision that the current devs have is different from what the KDE philosophy has been for a long time. I'm not against making things easier to use for new users, but it would seem that a whole slew of things have been "forgotten" about when it comes to KDE4. And, I'm not complaing that the devs decided to incorporate the new "glitz", but adding glitz at the expense of usability, especially for those who need that usability due to disabilites or other reasons, is an issue. I don't ask much in a desktop. I use KDE 3.5.x on this laptop. It has KOffice for when I need a word program(honestly, I find Wordpad in WinDoZe totally usable and much better than Word. I use firefox for browsing, MPlayer for multimedia, KTorrent when needed, and K3B for burning. I don't care much for the 1 click multimedia stuff because MPlayer does everything i need it to do for multimedia. I would remove Xine/Kaffine except for all the dependencies. Further, so far, KDE4 is not faster nor does it use less resources than KDE3, which was the biggest push. You can't use 11.0 or 11.1's KDE3 for comparision because they share too many libs. You'd have to go back to 10.2 or 10.3 to really find out.

Thus, you and others are encouraged to write down bug lists and feature requests.

I have made comments as I have found them. However, I generally post what I find to the lists because I find the bug reporting programs cumbersome. If it's an unknown issue, then I have opened bugs. I would love to be able to do more, but my time is limited right now. Others have said that I should post less and open more bugs, but I guess they haven't noticed that my participation on these lists has dropped off dramitically recently. I've spent all weekend moving and haven't had much time to devote to even checking my email. I'd love to be able to install 11.1 on my Macs, but haven't had time. I wished I would have had more time to beta test, but I didn't. While I am behind openSUSE, I don't have enough time to devote to it right now. As things settle down, I hope to be able to do more. And I will do what I can to add bug reports as I see the need and as I have the time. I'd like to have the time to figure out how to connect my hdtv properly so that I can use it for my movie collection. However, it's an older rear projection and it only supports 480p, 480i, and 1080i. Getting that to work is a higher priority, especially for my son since we haven't had the $$ to go see many movies this year. A 52" HDtv is a big deal to a 12 year old.

I have already noted some reduction in the configurability in the Personal Settings, and the fact that both Konqueror 4 and Dolphin lacks such an important function as the capability of showing meta data for every file. We need to make such lists in order to give proper and constructive feedback to the developers - even though it is important to discuss these matters to draw attention to them, the developers are all the time dependent on input from users.

KDE4 was pushed out before it was even really usable. It still has a lot of holes. So long as KDE3 provides me what I need, I will stay with it. Look at it this way, as bad as WinDoZe is, look how many people are staying with XP and avoiding Vista like the plague. I prefer 2k myself, because it is easier to setup and uses less resources than XP. For all it's flaws, XP has become the most used OS ever. And if we ever want to get people to move away from it, we will need to offer a compelling reason for them to switch. While we may think that things like MySpaceIM are useless, these people don't, so should we work to get it ported? Or Quicktime or AIM, or some other win program. A lot of us dislike Novell's support of mono, because we think .NET is useless, but a lot of WinDoZe users don't, so where do we draw the line? I use Linux because it's stable, secure, and uses less resources than Windows. It's gives me more control over my system than Windows does. And, it gives me real choice. But, I use WinDoZe at work and I am basically as productiive using it as I am with Linux, so, once again, it comes down to a compelling reason. I feel I need a compelling reason to switch to KDE4, which I have yet to find, and WinDoZe users need a compelling reason to switch to Linux. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 28 December 2008 07:57:43 James Knott wrote:

FWIW, yesterday, I was a a friend's setting up WiFi for her on her new computer, which runs Vista. The more I use Vista, the more I hate it. Some of what I don't care for in KDE 4 also appears to be in Vista. My friend also does not care for Vista. She finds it irritating. So anyone who thinks KDE should be moving in that direction, should do some serious rethinking. Otherwise, we'll wind up with Linux Vista. --

I have not setup a WiFi card on my Linux machine ( I cheat and use an AP in Client mode) but Vista is a pain to do a manual setup, they want you to do it the way THEY want, it may not be easier in Linux but it's flexible. Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

But you should care - KDE 4 is and should be the version to be developed in the future. Thus it is important to ensure that it holds high configurability and functionality - and of course is made to be user-friendly. There is no contradictions here - quite the contrary!

The problem is that the vision that the current devs have is different from what the KDE philosophy has been for a long time. I'm not against making things easier to use for new users, but it would seem that a whole slew of things have been "forgotten" about when it comes to KDE4.

Are you completely sure about that? I personally incline to the belief that the explanation is lack of communication: In order to have configurability, choice, features and functionality, the developers must be informed about the need to include the relevant features.

Look at it this way, as bad as WinDoZe is, look how many people are staying with XP and avoiding Vista like the plague. I prefer 2k myself, because it is easier to setup and uses less resources than XP.

There are even more weighty reasons to prefer Windows 2000 before any other flavor of Windows, and more compelling reasons why we should use Linux. Namely, Product Activation. Who in his or her right mind would entrust his/her personal files and data to a computer whose software cannot be installed without "permission" from a software company and permanent dependence on the availability of a specific activation service to be able to access one's files? In my opinion, Linux cannot ever become dominant on the desktop until most people understand that a computer ought to be user-controlled and the software must be capable of being installed whenever and as many times the user wants - without any activation procedures or other forced ties to a software manufacturer. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

IOTW, Linux will never become dominant. :P

Actually, I find not using Windows to be pretty much impossible. However, with such apps as Crossover and VirtualBox, I can do most things. (Still can't synch my Blackberry, though.)

Microsoft may actually be chasing people away from Windows. Linux is certainly leading in the server world and many people are finding they don't need Windows. They need a browser, email, office suite etc. The popularity of Linux loaded netbooks is demonstrating that. Just yesterday, I helped a friend with her new, Vista loaded computer. I set up WiFi and installed Firefox & OpenOffice. She could easily use Linux for most of her activities. Unfortunately, she has some software for her work that, at the moment, is only available for Windows. However, she does not like Vista. Her experience with Windows goes back to the 3.1 days, but I suspect she'd jump to Linux, if she could do her work with it, simply due to the various problems with running Windows. Incidentally, the reason I was setting up her WiFi is that while it was working previously, some update from Microsoft killed the settings and also cost her some work she was doing, as the update started while she was working and she couldn't even save her work! I believe the same thing happened to Steve Ballmer, when he was in the middle of a presentation. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

and more compelling reasons why we should use Linux. Namely, Product Activation. Who in his or her right mind would entrust his/her personal files and data to a computer whose software cannot be installed without "permission" from a software company and permanent dependence on the availability of a specific activation service to be able to access one's files?

Actually, most software vendors require this. Autodesk, Kofax, IBM/FileNet, EMC all come to mind.

I use Cinepaint, Bibble Pro, Open Office, Audacity for my production. None of these programs have ever been activation crippled or phoned home. For those software programs that are so crippled, all people have to do is to say no to the nonsense. Software that cannot be run independent of its manufacturer is defect, and should be treated accordingly. Servility and cowardice are two serious scourges of humanity, and we would have a better world (albeit a less 'peaceful' one) if people could stop respecting false authorities and thus cease to believe in the rightfulness of institutions and persons that are perceived to be mighty in one way or another. Without a doubt, the main problem lies with the tendency to give up liberty for peace and freedom for the safety that lies in letting someone considered stronger to "protect" yourself. Only self-empowerment and the end of irrational respect for those who are viewed as stronger than oneself can remedy that situation.

Even with Linux versions, you still often have to possess a licence key that either phones home or has some local activation.

This has never been the case with (open) SuSE, Fedora or Kubuntu. If "local activation" means the typing in of a serial number it cannot be compared to Product Activation, even if it is still an unnecessary nuisance. But any program that phones home has to be rejected without fail. Since laws can be bought and are also bought, software companies have purchased laws that defend themselves against their customers. It is up to these customers to put an end to that. It is we who use the programs who should define the premises for their use. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joe Morris wrote:

There is no dumbing down of any programs, kde4 is a complete from scratch rewrite of kde based on the new qt4. There is nothing to "dumb down" when you are rewriting from scratch,

So much hair splitting. So little time. Its not called XYZ 1.0. Its called KDE4.1. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org