On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:06:02 -0000, Philippe Landau wrote:

But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ? Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Kind regards Philippe

I'd say games, yes, also hardware drivers too. But the main thing is probably people thinking that windows (mostly, though mac too of course) is how computers work. When I switched to Linux, the biggest thing that struck me was the amazement that here was something running the computer that wasn't windows, after that how nice it looked and that it wasn't as terrifyingly geeky as I had heard. There was a very steep learning curve at the start, when I was so frustrated about not knowing how to do the most basic things that I was so familiar with. It took a couple of months of determination to get over this, and since then I only pop over to the XP side to play games. I wonder if I hadn't had such a bad feeling about MS in general and arrival of Vista in particular, whether I would have stuck with it. I'm very glad I did. Cheers, David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

The main problem for Linux games, is lack of backward-compatibility (read: ABI). That is, a game binary made now, is very unlikely to work 10 years from now on year 2018 Linux OS, while most Windows games can be played within ~10-15 year compatibility range. That is: Windows 95 games still mostly work on Windows Vista. Until Linux will have a better backward-compatibility (LSB?), it is unlikely to see many commercial games out there. That is: if I were a game development company, that targets both Linux OS & Windows, I would use customized Wine (like Google Picasa did), because there is no backward-compatibility in Linux systems. - The best can be done here is using someone else's (Windows) backward-compatibility and emulate that on Linux OS. This way, the game will still be playable on Linux 2018, maybe with some minor changes in that emulation layer. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Alexey Eremenko wrote:

The main problem for Linux games, is lack of backward-compatibility (read: ABI). That is, a game binary made now, is very unlikely to work 10 years from now on year 2018 Linux OS, while most Windows games can be played within ~10-15 year compatibility range. That is: Windows 95 games still mostly work on Windows Vista.

Really, you think it's the ABI? I downloaded the quake 3 arena demo in 1999. Back in the day I was playing on redhat 6.x, with a 2.2 kernel - 10 years later, that same binary plays better than ever on suse 10.3, with a 2.6 kernel. So, I don't see this as an issue. The real issue IMHO is the elephant in the room that nobody seems to have noticed: The frantic efforts of an extremely wealthy monopoly, bent on fighting linux adoption at every turn, and using their seemingly endless budget to that end. Is this so hard to see? Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi Greg KH,

What specific problems with "backward-compatibility" do you see on Linux today? Where are you having problems that you see needs to be solved. Specifics please.

I'm happy that one of the best is listening :) OK: my own experience: I took tuxracer.RPM from Mandrake Linux 9.2 to Mandrake Linux 10.1 (one year difference) and it crashed on start. Unfortunately, I haven't done any stracing/debugging to get more facts, because it was a looong time ago. But then again, if some commercial company release app XYZ based on Qt1, it is very unlikely to run on modern Linux systems. Additionally, I have worked with the "klik" package management team and we had two goals: achieve cross-Linux compatibility of our packages, and provide one-click install (something that 10.3 does, but very differently from klik). We (klik team) achieved one-click install goal fully, but the cross-Linux compatibility is flaky at best (very alpha stage). The project received much testing from openSUSE/Debian/Ubuntu community, so there you get good stability (>90% apps run), while on RedHat/Fedora we only achieved about <30% working apps. We can't really blame Fedora for this, it's just every distro is different and sometimes, a small difference such as a symlink makes a difference between a running app and a crashing app. ( libpcap.so -> libpcap.so.0.94), plus we haven't developers on Fedora systems. LSB doesn't specifies symlinks for libraries, yet. http://klik.atekon.de/presentation/img60.html Mostly we battled different versions of libstdc++, without good results. More info: http://klik.atekon.de/wiki/index.php/ABI_insanity Kernel Module/Driver ABI insanity: Not to speak about kernel modules (drivers), which break with every nano-upgrade of one-line of Linux code. While drivers ABI isn't very stable on Windows too, you have still very high chances, that a binary driver written for Windows 2000 kernel will run on Windows XP/2003 kernels, unmodified. Those LKMs are used quite frequently inside "normal" applications by-the-way. VirtualBox, Nero ImageDrive, and Incentives Pro USB-over-IP are such examples. BTW: LSB doesn't have specs for LKMs too. I know, that those problems are nearly impossible to fix, but easing them will already help me a lot. For example, if LKM were compatible for all Linux kernel's first three numbers. That is: LKM compiled for Linux 2.6.18.0 should work on all Linux 2.6.18.x series, not break between 2.6.18.0-1 to-> 2.6.18.0-2 versions, that are downloaded via online-updates. This will be huge step forward, as it will ensure drivers compatibility at least within one specific distro. Theoretically, I have heard about kernel version "magic", but it never worked for me. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, January 20, 2008 12:21 pm, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

The main problem for Linux games, is lack of backward-compatibility (read: ABI). That is, a game binary made now, is very unlikely to work 10 years from now on year 2018 Linux OS, while most Windows games can be played within ~10-15 year compatibility range. That is: Windows 95 games still mostly work on Windows Vista.

Actually, older games are finally not compatible on wintendo either. IIRC, you have to use DOSBOX or something like that.

Until Linux will have a better backward-compatibility (LSB?), it is unlikely to see many commercial games out there.

I actually see the end of Linux games here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_10 ...though I could care less about such things, apparently the DirectX 10.1 has the ability to utilize the GPU to render much of the graphics, taking the load off the CPU. Thus one ends up with very realistic and detailed gaming. Of course, I'm still trying to finish Planetfall, so I'll be a ways off. :P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, January 20, 2008 3:16 pm, Joe Sloan wrote:

PerfectReign wrote:

...

I actually see the end of Linux games here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_10

hmm, OK, so mickeysoft is changing one of their APIs yet again... and that relates to linux games how?

I'm just suggesting that more of the balance falls to the DirectX crowd than ever before. Unless OpenGL has something competitive to this, I can't see developers choosing to port games to openSUSE or other distros. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joe Sloan wrote:

PerfectReign wrote:

...

On Sun, January 20, 2008 3:16 pm, Joe Sloan wrote:

...

PerfectReign wrote:

...

I actually see the end of Linux games here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_10 hmm, OK, so mickeysoft is changing one of their APIs yet again... and that relates to linux games how? I'm just suggesting that more of the balance falls to the DirectX crowd than ever before.

Unless OpenGL has something competitive to this, I can't see developers choosing to port games to openSUSE or other distros.

LOL, nobody has ever ported a game to opensuse, no need.

Loki ported many Windows games to Linux..not just opensuse but one CD that worked on every distro. I have RailRoad Tycoon II, Platinum edition, as a native Linux installation. I even bought it right off the shelf at an honest to goodness brick-and-mortar store.

Like I said, my quake 3 arena demo binary from 1999 has played just fine on every distro I've tried.

What happens is top developers like John Carmack write OpenGL, and the result is automatically rather standards friendly. DX is a problem, but all problems have their solutions. I'm not throwing in the towel and I don't think anybody else here should either.

The games will come AFTER businesses start putting Linux on the desktop. A lot of people want the same OS at home as what they use at work. Once significant numbers of people are using Linux on the desktop at work, the home software market will inflate very rapidly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

PerfectReign wrote:

Heh - I know. I've got the young generation learning the ways of TuxRacer, X-Moto and L-Breakout.

http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/51

That's cool, expose them while they are young! I turned my kids on to linux when they were young - My oldest son, an anthropology professor, runs suse linux on all his computers and is mickeysoft free. My youngest son does LAMP development/admin for a living. My 2 daughters both grew up to be OSX users, but still know their way around linux.

Of course, my collection of SUSE manuals is getting way out of date, as evidenced by the 9.3 manuals in the bookshelf there. If they don't start shipping manuals again, I'm not sure I can be supportive.

I understand there's a rather brisk aftermarket in suse linux books. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Joe Sloan wrote:

LOL, nobody has ever ported a game to opensuse, no need. Like I said, my quake 3 arena demo binary from 1999 has played just fine on every distro I've tried.

Except that Quake III Arena (I have the "limited edition" metal box version from Loki) has no sound on OpenSuSE 10.2 and my *favourite* game, Terminus (http://www.vvisions.com/games/details.cfm?ID=28), which once upon a time I used to play constantly, doesn't run on 10.2 at all :( So yes, you can play your old 1999 games if you keep an old 1999 Linux around to play them on. I do understand that if I were to install and maintain several parallel out-of-distribution old versions of glibc I could possibly get them to work, but that's no substitute for the Windows experience of picking up a "buy 3 for £10" old PC games offer in the high street and just putting the disc in the computer. It's really my 11 year old who'd most like to play computer games and the latter he can cope with, the former, of course not. Even the new Linux Quake 4 demo doesn't run on OpenSuSE 10.2 because the sound is all broken and horrible, let alone old bargain basement Windows games. Regards, Chris R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joe Sloan escreveu:

There are more games available for 'bloze, no argument there.

I'm trying to keep it on the topic "Why don't more people use Linux?". It's not /just/ that there /more/ games for Windows, enough that my kids can find them in the high street and afford them with pocket money.

I fixed Q4 sound after a bit of googling, blue skies. I just don't like the game that much - ut2004 is more enjoyable IMHO.

As for bargain basement windoze games, I couldn't say. I'd be more likely to try bargain basement linux games.

You've just proved my point really. It's that from my kids' point-of-view even if they do buy Linux games, with the penguin on the box and everything, they may or may not work. Whether it's old ones like Quake 3 or even new ones like Quake 4. I'm not arguing with you that they can get Dad to google for the answer, write some magic to the computer's boot scripts and finally, hopefully, they'll actually be able to play. That is exactly my point! The alternative is they can afford a couple of Windows games themselves, take them home and play them right away. As it is we *don't* have any Windows machines in the house, I won't let them. the kids don't understand why not though. I also agree with you about Quake 4. Our current favourite is "World of Padman" (http://www.worldofpadman.com/) based on the Quake 3 engine. Regards, Chris R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, January 21, 2008 5:09 am, Jerry Houston wrote:

I'm an enthusiastic Linux user, and in fact, have been somewhat of an evangelist about it at times. However, I earn a six-figure income ($US) working all day with computers running Windows. Just because we use and enjoy one doesn't necessarily mean we should remain ignorant about the other.

Six figures? That's all? I earn a seven-figure income (if you include the decimals). :P By the way - on the corporate note. I just put my first openSUSE server box into production. It is a small app server running apache for a LAMP based software inventory program, but it is a start. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

PerfectReign wrote:

On Mon, January 21, 2008 5:09 am, Jerry Houston wrote:

...

I'm an enthusiastic Linux user, and in fact, have been somewhat of an evangelist about it at times. However, I earn a six-figure income ($US) working all day with computers running Windows. Just because we use and enjoy one doesn't necessarily mean we should remain ignorant about the other.

Six figures? That's all? I earn a seven-figure income (if you include the decimals). :P

By the way - on the corporate note. I just put my first openSUSE server box into production. It is a small app server running apache for a LAMP based software inventory program, but it is a start.

Don't despise small beginnings. I pushed linux into our company as a backup MX/DNS server, and a big brother server running on discarded windoze hardware. It was despised by my management at the time, who tried to kill it, but it impressed enough of the right people to gain a toe-hold. Now we have all our infrastructure services running on linux, on first-hand HP hardware, with full support, and are about to do a pilot project to see about moving Oracle off of HP-UX and onto Linux. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Houston wrote:

Furthermore, it's not just about games. Most business runs on Windows machines, and is likely to for years to come. Unless you're independently wealthy -- such that your kids will never need to work in the real world -- preventing them from learning how Windows works isn't doing them any favors.

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office, instead of how to use a computer or an office suite? Do you teach your kids how to drive a Ford? Or how to drive a car? We should be teaching skills, not products. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Jan 21, 2008 11:01 AM, Jerry Houston wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office, instead of how to use a computer or an office suite? Do you teach your kids how to drive a Ford? Or how to drive a car? We should be teaching skills, not products.

I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford. <g>

Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison. Cars are designed to be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight, cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes. Operating systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning curves.

I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux. Or that it shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice). But preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft applications isn't doing them a favor.

You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.

Till they need to "earn a living" there are going to be another OSes, and another applications, and most probably even the way you interact with computers will change. Exposing the kids to different environments is very important in terms of making them adapt easier to a changed situation. Exactly like the languages - kids learn easier and faster a second (and third language) than adults. And when they have the mindset to think in different languages, it's easier for them to learn yet another one. And another one ... My daughter uses Edubuntu on her computer (Gnome), she is using my Suse machine with ease (KDE), at school they use Macs, and she has no problems using her buddies' Windows machines when she is visiting (even that no one have specifically educated her about this one). It's not the OS/application - it's the process that have to be learned as James said. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Jan 21, 2008 12:25 PM, Jerry Houston wrote:

Sunny wrote:

...

Exposing the kids to different environments is very important in terms of making them adapt easier to a changed situation. Exactly like the languages - kids learn easier and faster a second (and third language) than adults. And when they have the mindset to think in different languages, it's easier for them to learn yet another one. And another one ...

Exactly. And exposing them to only _one_ environment doesn't encourage them to learn those skills.

That's the point, at home, they need to be exposed to something better than a public school (at least in US they are still Windows and Mac-centric) can teach them :) -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dear Greg KH, I have read your documents about kernel drivers and binary compatibility. Well, I disagree with your position. I don't think that getting all the drivers into the kernel is good idea at all. This is because when you have 2 competing drivers, that are doing nearly the same thing, one of them will not be accepted. Additionally, my philosophy says it is OK to have non-GPL (and non-Freedom) drivers for Linux. Those cannot be inserted into mainline of course. Additionally, I believe it is not correct to force to developer to maintain his driver. Keeping up with Linux changing takes up driver developer's time. And kernel interfaces are changing too fast. I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every time when someone else broke something. I believe development can go without breaking _already working_ things. At least not every micro-release. Current situation is insane - I have a real-life example: Getting NVIDIA drivers, then updating the kernel breaks it again. I believe NVIDIA has the right to build proprietary drivers, if they so choose. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello again Greg,

Hi (you forgot a "-" in my name :) well, GMail also represents you that way, without "-". So I follow the Google-friend :)

OK, let's leave the philosophical discussions aside between GPL and non-GPL drivers, for now.

...

Keeping up with Linux changing takes up driver developer's time.

Yes.

...

I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every time when someone else broke something.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but you haven't justified why this is so. If you get your driver into the main kernel tree, any changes to the ABI are done automatically for you. So that means that it saves the driver developer's time even more that way, as they do not need to ever update their driver again, which is not something that any other operating system can provide.

This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the end. They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything "just works" for them automatically.

This is a problem. Think of a developer. An OSS GPL one :) It takes 100 hours to make a driver (LKM), plus 1 hour per month to update it. But what happens, when he decided to move to another project ? If there are users to his project, but no developers among them, they are in trouble, because no-one will help them. 1. They could support themselves, if there was a stable API+ABI. 2. That developer wouldn't need spend extra hour per month just to update his driver, because it would "just work". Now - the newbie user: It is *really* daunting to update a kernel and find, that Nvidia driver (and X.org) do not run on my desktop anymore. The newbies among us will have to reformat&reinstall, because X.org won't start - no NVIDIA driver - and X doesn't have auto-fallback (which is a problem in itself, but not related), and they will end up booting into black-screen. And unlike Window's Blue Screen, here "reset" won't help. Proprietary company: 1. It is possible to talk to those companies, but again, they usually do not release their drivers as Open-Source, if they release at all. 2. Even if they release it as Open-Source, it may be outdated, and won't compile on new kernels - again users won't be able to use this driver. 3. Most proprietary companies understand that supporting out-of-tree LKM is very difficult, and may refuses to develop one for this reason. But it differently, with better API/ABI stability, more companies will invest in developing Linux drivers. I believe it is unfair model, where users need to waste a lot of time to fight problems, that shouldn't even exist.

...

And kernel interfaces are changing too fast.

How do you measure "too fast"? What rate of change would be acceptable for you? Can you quantify that based on the need for change in the market and environment that Linux is in?

Do you even know what our rate of change is? I just ran the numbers last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the past...

Yes I know... ~2 million lines of code per month, or ~6m lines of code per kernel release (3 months). Any rate is acceptable by me, and no need to slow-down. Linux gains features very quickly now. But I'm not speaking about that - but about changes that break things. Other OS kernels (Windows NT 5.x, Solaris UNIX) have also hi rate of changes, yet they manage to stay more compatible.

...

I believe development can go without breaking _already working_ things. At least not every micro-release.

Please explain, in detail, how this can happen.

Also, please explain how the different points that are expressed in the file, Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt are not correct, and can somehow be handled with your proposed stable api.

I do not propose APIs/ABIs yet :( I should try to ask some serious kernel hackers beforehand. Otherwise I lack your "in detail" part of question, and I will miss the point. Sorry, cannot answer on this question fully this time. But generally, I can tell how it can happen: we need to look after ourselves and see which kernel commit requires other LKM developers most pain - i.e. most broken modules (both in-kernel LKMs and third-party, out-of-tree), then revert those changes back. Sounds stupid, but with time we will be able to guess-ahead what kinds of changes/commits makes problems to others, and try not to break those parts. This may work not like "stable API", but more like trial-n-error - "scientific method to stability". Again, I would like to discuss possible solutions... -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2008 22:03:53 schrieb Greg KH:

Then don't buy nvidia hardware.  Again, simple answer :)

Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at least the most) features) exist? It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc. (I'm honestly interested) Greetings Michael

...

Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at least the most) features) exist?

It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc. (I'm honestly interested)

Intel graphic chips meet this requirement, it is what I use and recommend others to purchase if they have a choice.

1) I can support this. There's no except Intel. And that's the problem. Have you ever seen an Intel PCIe card? Ever seen a integrated gpu on a non Intel chipset mainboard? Funny that running linux on notebooks results to best graphics card support... 2) I would buy a fully open source driven card. Even with little 3d support. It's still more than my ATI Radeon X300 (radeon driver not fglrx). I never got fglrx to work and I honestly don't want to, really. 3) ATI's open source driver - for new cards only - seems to be a marketing gag. Greetings, Johannes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

He asked for opensource drivers, nvidia drivers are binary blobs. On Jan 24, 2008 5:45 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

M. Skiba wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2008 22:03:53 schrieb Greg KH:

...

Then don't buy nvidia hardware. Again, simple answer :)

Just out of curiosity, can you recommend a good(similar features to nVidia/ATI) graphic card, for which opensource drivers (including 'all'(at least the most) features) exist?

It should be able to run with Windows too and be able to play 3D games, etc. (I'm honestly interested)

Greetings Michael

Anything nVidia - NOT ATI!

The nvidia driver support is great. ATI is a pain to get working I have current ATI bugs open right now - driver lock ups, library SONAME problems, See:

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=338930 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=338947 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=340459 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=344135

I recently found an MSI nVidia 8600GT pci-e overclock edition card for $97. Gives over 10300 FPS in glxgears. ATI support for Linux drives lags well behind nvidia. (but it is improving) If you wait a month until the ATI 8.45 driver is out, things might be different, but that is where it stands now.

-- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com

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On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 04:28:17PM +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:

Greg KH wrote:

...

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:10:14PM +0200, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Now - the newbie user: It is *really* daunting to update a kernel and find, that Nvidia driver (and X.org) do not run on my desktop anymore. Then don't buy nvidia hardware. Again, simple answer :) For quite some time Nvidia had better support on Linux then ATI. As a consequence many Linux users have Nvidia cards now. Is ATI fully open-source now ? Is that what you would buy ?

Intel is fully supported, with open drivers. That is what I would recommend that you purchase. It's what I buy with my own money.

...

Seriously, I really don't care about companies that violate the license of the Linux kernel, and I'm not going to do ANYTHING to help them out. Why would you expect me, or any other kernel developer to do otherwise? With that attitude no wonder people are having serious problems with the latest security updates (see ongoing topic "Latest Update Kills Server").

Again, there is _nothing_ that we can do to help with this, as their code is closed.

...

Do companies help other companies out that violate their licenses? No, they take legal action against them. Does Nvidia violate a license ?

Yes, it violates mine, and the other kernel developer's copyright on the kernel when they distribute a pre-built kernel module. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 05:29:52PM +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:

Greg KH wrote:

...

...

...

Do companies help other companies out that violate their licenses? No, they take legal action against them. Does Nvidia violate a license ? Yes, it violates mine, and the other kernel developer's copyright on the kernel when they distribute a pre-built kernel module. Is anybody suing them ? If not, why not ?

Yes, people are taking legal action against them, and many other companies that are doing the same thing. Unfortunatly, lawyers move very slow... thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philippe Landau wrote:

Greg KH wrote:

...

...

...

Then don't buy nvidia hardware. Again, simple answer :) For quite some time Nvidia had better support on Linux then ATI. As a consequence many Linux users have Nvidia cards now. Is ATI fully open-source now ? Is that what you would buy ? Intel is fully supported, with open drivers. That is what I would recommend that you purchase. It's what I buy with my own money. Great. What experience do list members have with those cards ?

Intel graphics have been great for my desktop machines - it just works, and handles all the eye candy and effects well. I can even play some 3D games like quake 3 arena. But the intel video does run out of gas on the newest games - forget about quake 4. For games like that, you really need nvidia cards. The external driver is a bit of a hassle, but nothing else gives that kind of graphics performance on Linux. ATI cards have always been problematic, but with the recent launch of the effort to develop open source drivers for ATI cards, there is hope. Not today, not tomorrow - but maybe this year, there will be something usable for 3D applications.

Is anybody suing them ? If not, why not ?

Hopefully common sense will continue to prevail. I never appreciated being criminalized for installing nvidia drivers on my own damn computer. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 10:27:38PM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 09:00 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

Do you even know what our rate of change is? I just ran the numbers last week, and they are much larger than has ever been reported in the past...

No-one really cares what the rate of change is provided that amount of regressions stays relatively low. Surprisingly, it has. And that _has_ to be major surprise for everyone.

Yes, a very pleasant one :)

...

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I believe having stable kernel ABI can save many work hours of driver developer's, because they won't need to update their drivers every time when someone else broke something.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but you haven't justified why this is so. If you get your driver into the main kernel tree, any changes to the ABI are done automatically for you.

If it's really trivial driver; otherwise you have to commit yourself to be the maintainer and constant API tweaker anyway.

No, not at all. If I change an internal kernel api (like I just did in the kobject core), then it is up to me to fix up all users of that api in the kernel so that nothing breaks. The original developer does not have to do any work. Lots of developers go away after they get their driver into the kernel tree, never to be seen again. And their code keeps on working just fine. I can name hundreds of drivers like this. In the end, the development time for a driver developer for Linux is less than that of other operating systems as the maintaince is done for them for all future versions, and the ammount of code they have to write in the first place is smaller. What's not to like about that? :)

...

So that means that it saves the driver developer's time even more that way, as they do not need to ever update their driver again, which is not something that any other operating system can provide.

This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the end. They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything "just works" for them automatically.

As I told you before, this is a nice idea but 'in real life' it's load of bollocks :). If we don't make it possible for users to install 'out-of-tree' drivers (and just drivers, nothing else) they are forced to do major kernel update after each new gadget bought. And that, in real life terms, means totally new OS to install. Plug and play, you say?

No, not at all. You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine, with only minor package updates at times. As proof that this works, I was just talking with a very large company that relies on Linux last week. They use RHEL 3 on almost all of their systems. But as RHEL 3 is 2.4 based, and doesn't support a lot of new hardware, and has lots of other issues, they just drop in the latest 2.6 kernel on their own, and their developers never even notice the difference, except that their machines work better. So, in the "real life" it isn't a load of bollocks, sorry :)

IMHO the whole concept of providing complete kernel in one huge blob is flawed. Optimal case would be to break it into pieces with no dependencies.

I'd be interested in seeing your patches to attempt such a thing.

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...

I believe development can go without breaking _already working_ things. At least not every micro-release.

Please explain, in detail, how this can happen.

Also, please explain how the different points that are expressed in the file, Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt are not correct, and can somehow be handled with your proposed stable api.

It's not incorrect, it's just that you have basically ruled out regular users to serve joe random hacker (a guy that doesn't mind installing new OS twice per year). I'm fine with that, but I doubt that was the original strategy.

That said, IMHO kernel is doing great. It's the Linux userland that sucks.

Hey, patches always are gladly accepted :) thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 11:25:23AM +0200, Janne Karhunen wrote:

On Jan 23, 2008 11:08 PM, Greg KH wrote:

...

In the end, the development time for a driver developer for Linux is less than that of other operating systems as the maintaince is done for them for all future versions, and the ammount of code they have to write in the first place is smaller.

API tweaking might be done for you automatically, but certainly _not_ maintenance or testing. Or don't tell me you have every piece of hardware supported by Linux available and that you actually do test if you broke them :)

API changes are almost always made in such a way that they break when the code builds. So if you fix up the build, the code will work properly. And no, I don't have all the hardware at all, that's impossible. I've written drivers for devices where I have never seen the hardware, and they work just fine (or so I'm told.) Having the hardware, or even access to it is not a requirement at all to do development and/or maintenance.

So most certainly maintenance is not done. And actually, most of the testing effort done against the original driver was just rendered useless with the API tweak.

No, not at all. That's just not how the Linux kernel development process works, sorry. I can go into the whole testing process if you really want to know, but that has nothing to do with the change of APIs. I find it odd that people who do not have experience in doing Linux kernel development and API changes would insist that the current model we are using is broken...

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This also provides a more secure, and better product for the user in the end. They never need to worry about external drivers, and everything "just works" for them automatically.

As I told you before, this is a nice idea but 'in real life' it's load of bollocks :). If we don't make it possible for users to install 'out-of-tree' drivers (and just drivers, nothing else) they are forced to do major kernel update after each new gadget bought. And that, in real life terms, means totally new OS to install. Plug and play, you say?

No, not at all. You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine, with only minor package updates at times.

Joe Random Hacker can, regular user can't.

rpm -ihv new_kernel_package.rpm zypper install new_kernel_package.rpm or use some gui tool. People do it all the time. And they help us out with testing in ways that we developers can not do. So yes, "regular user" can do this, and they do, every single day.

That, and I don't think SUSE would be too happy supporting 2.6.23.14 for SLED10 either. Andreas, would you be happy with it :) ?

But we do support it for openSuSE, right? I have argued that the SLED model is broken in the past, so let's not bring that up here again. The "enterprise" model does not lend itself to changing the kernel like this I know, and that is one reason I do not think it is viable over the long term. But again, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If Novell wants to continue to support SLED, then they will do the backporting for you, and then you just install a new kernel (like you do for security updates, which also happen to suck in a lot of driver updates at the same time.)

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As proof that this works, I was just talking with a very large company that relies on Linux last week. They use RHEL 3 on almost all of their systems. But as RHEL 3 is 2.4 based, and doesn't support a lot of new hardware, and has lots of other issues, they just drop in the latest 2.6 kernel on their own, and their developers never even notice the difference, except that their machines work better.

So, in the "real life" it isn't a load of bollocks, sorry :)

OK, try asking your auntie to do the same thing ;)

My anutie doesn't run RHEL3, she's smarter than that :)

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...

IMHO the whole concept of providing complete kernel in one huge blob is flawed. Optimal case would be to break it into pieces with no dependencies.

I'd be interested in seeing your patches to attempt such a thing.

With current design this would probably be impossible :/

Ok then, so you are asking for something that is impossible :( But why do you think we have made it so impossible, could it be that this model happens to be better? Nah, those kernel developers, they don't really know what they are doing at all... Gotta love the trust... greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Janne Karhunen wrote:

On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 08:54 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

And no, I don't have all the hardware at all, that's impossible. I've written drivers for devices where I have never seen the hardware, and they work just fine (or so I'm told.) Having the hardware, or even access to it is not a requirement at all to do development and/or maintenance.

Given that you want to be absolutely certain you didn't break it you effectively need to retest. But obviously once again we are serving and relying on hordes of Joe Random Hackers that will retest the driver and report. Single regression for 'normal' user would probably render the whole thing useless.

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...

So most certainly maintenance is not done. And actually, most of the testing effort done against the original driver was just rendered useless with the API tweak. No, not at all. That's just not how the Linux kernel development process works, sorry. I can go into the whole testing process if you really want to know, but that has nothing to do with the change of APIs.

Well, duh. Of course any change, API or otherwise, can trigger a regression. And the regressions make it sure real life John/Jane Does fail using Linux. I use the word 'regression' because 99.999% of all imaginable things have used to work in some version of Linux..

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I find it odd that people who do not have experience in doing Linux kernel development and API changes would insist that the current model we are using is broken...

No no, you got this all wrong. I'm not saying I know a better solution - far from it. All I'm trying to say is that current model does *not* serve _regular_ users. Linux is a hacker tool for hackers. That's what the topic was all about.

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No, not at all. You should be able to drop in a new kernel just fine, with only minor package updates at times. Joe Random Hacker can, regular user can't. rpm -ihv new_kernel_package.rpm

zypper install new_kernel_package.rpm

You really can't be serious here. Now, please explain in detail what regular user would do if that left him/ her without a working kernel. This happens at least once per month to me.

Not a single IT department on this whole planet would allow you to reinstall kernel to get one bloody driver update. It usually takes gazillion geeks to fix the regressions that show'd up. This costs some serious money. Really.

...

or use some gui tool. People do it all the time. And they help us out with testing in ways that we developers can not do. So yes, "regular user" can do this, and they do, every single day.

You obviously have very different view of 'regular user' than the rest of us. John/Jane Doe can NOT help you debug a kernel. Nor does he/she wish to. Heck, she doesn't even know what kernel IS.

I'm a systems engineer (and I've spent my entire time in the Unix world, going back to 1983, with some experience with Linux -- all my home machines are Linux) and frankly, even I don't have the confidence to be doing the kinds of things that Greg is talking about. Frankly, if something goes wrong, I don't want to spend the time trying to undo it all. So, I wait for the "official" software updates with everything all worked out. And, until this mess is worked out with the 3D cards, i'm just not using hardware 3D, unless it's OpenGL. I don't need the headaches. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 January 2008 01:31:41 Billie Walsh wrote:

First off let me say that as a normal home user I love Linux.

HOWEVER, some things either just plain won't work or are WAY to much trouble get working.

WiFi - I have an Atheros card for my laptop. Madwifi works most of the time. BUT, every time I turn on the computer I have to fart around for 30/45 minutes to get the darned thing to connect.

Using the madwifi drivers/firmware combo. The driver is included in the openSUSE 10.3 distribution and there is a repo for the remaining code at madwifi.org. This 'hassle' is absolutely _not_ the fault of the kernel developers. The chipset you are using uses code that cannot be freely distributed with the kernel under it's current license. It's this license, by the way, that continues to guarantee your freedom to use Linux, and that work from the whole community can be used by everyone. The fault here lies with hardware vendor for not providing open source drivers or working with the Linux driver project. The Linux distributions are doing the best they can with the restrictions being placed upon them by the hardware vendors.

TV cards - Lets just say it's way more trouble that it's worth. A Television set is WAY easier.

TV cards - there's a wide variety of TV cards that work well with Linux. Myth-TV is a fantastic PVR application that maintains a good list of working TV cards. Again, a failure by the hardware vendors to open their drivers or work with the Linux driver project can hardly be laid at the kernel developers door. Did you know the Linux driver project developers will evensign NDAs with hardware vendors to try and ensure that drivers can be put into the Linux kernel?

DVD Playback [ Multimedia ] - Actually works without to much trouble, most of the time. BUT a DVD player is cheap and loads easier.

This is not a driver issue at all, but is down purely to DRM. When you buy an encrypted DVD, you're not actually buying the content on the disc, but in reality just the rights to view the content on devices that are permitted by the studios/recording associations etc. There's very little personal freedom there whatsoever. Distributing the keys to enable the playback of encrypted DVDs is a breach of the DCMA in the US, which is why they're not included with distributions that are distributed freely in the US. Unencrypted DVDs play straight out of the box with no hassle at all.

Video cards - besides WiFi cards this has to be one of the worst features. I see more problem e-mails for those two than just about anything else Average Joe User is going to use. Someone, aon an offshoot of this thread, that if your having trouble with Nvidia don't buy Nvidia. WELL, sometimes that isn't an option that's available. Not everyone is on an unlimited budget and can buy just THE perfect computer. [ I have an ATI and it works just fine for my use without any problem ]

Video cards work fine in Linux. You can use the open source nv driver with nVidia cards, the open source radeon driver with ATI cards. But I suspect that the main complaint here is wanting 3D (wobbly windows) with these cards and so hence use the proprietary video drivers with these cards. Again, this goes back to the hardware vendors refusing to play nicely with the Linux kernel developers. There is a kernel released under a specific license and the hardware vendors in this instance are not 'playing by the rules'. In most instances, Intel graphics cards tend to be cheaper than ATI/nVidia cards - and the drivers are usually in the kernel.

OK, I know these are, for the most part, things that nothing can be done about. BUT, the question was asked why more people don't use Linux. There's part of the reason Average Joe User doesn't use Linux.

You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business to hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to the kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to do, but to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even if it is the easier target. Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:

On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:

...

You can complain to the hardware vendor, you can take your business to hardware vendors that provide good support or at least information to the kernel developers. Things are improving, and there is still work to do, but to lay the blame at the kernel developers door is a bit unfair, even if it is the easier target.

Jon

I never said these were "kernel developer" problems. Just that if the Linux Community wants Average Joe User to move over then these are problems that will have to be solved so they "just work".

Why is it the responsibility of the 'Linux community' to fix problems with hardware vendors not supplying the code to run their hardware or working with the Linux driver project? How is the 'Linux community' supposed to solve these problems? You're mailing to a Linux list, I think your list of complaints is better directed elsewhere. Your email was also a direct reply to one of the Linux kernel developers - hence why it seemed your complaints were directed there...

Average Joe User doesn't want to jump through hoops to make it work. He just wants a computer that he can turn on and EVERYTHING works without hastles.

Then use the nv, radeon, Intel drivers for video and check the hardware before purchase? Even on Windows EVERYTHING doesn't work without hassles - you still have to install vendor supplied drivers or visit websites to install drivers. (Possibly, at a stretch, Macs provide the computing nirvana you're seeking)

Me personally, I made a decision to move over and deal with things as they come up. I have gotten my TV cards [ supported ] to work, off and on. It's just way less hastle to turn on a TV than fart around in Yast to get it to work every little bit. The WiFi card is "supported" but about every third or fourth time I turn it on the damned thing won't connect. Then I have to fart around with the setup to get it working again. Most of the time if I'm in the computer room I just plug in the cable.

Complain to Atheros or whoever manufactures your wireless card. Ah yes, they won't listen to you, so it's easier to complain here. Fortunately, I've never had to use a madwifi card, although have had plenty of fun with Broadcom wireless and ndiswrapper and now, bcm43xx firmware ripping. I can only assume both these solutions are far superior to madwifi, as they don't refuse to connect on every 3-4 connection attempts. Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 January 2008 19:53:57 Philippe Landau wrote:

Jonathan Ervine wrote:

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Complain to Atheros or whoever manufactures your wireless card. Ah yes, they won't listen to you, so it's easier to complain here.

Wow, obviously you feel the need to attack a list member here. Billie Walsh (below) never complained, just explained his troubles. Maybe Novell could instead try to find a reply to the question above ? Did Novell research that question and what did they find, Jonathan

Blimey, if you thought that was an attack on a list member, you're a sensitive soul. Merely a suggestion as to where to lodge a complaint regarding a particular piece of hardware (with the proviso that it's probably a waste of time). So, Billie explained her problem with a wireless network card and I pointed out where the fault currently lies... That is the simple answer - the code is licensed in such a way as to not be freely redistributable. However there is a KMP made available, and madwifi.org maintain a repo that allows the rest of the code to be available. It's not ideal, but it's how things are right now. Is that fair enough, Philippe? Take care, Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 January 2008 10:06, Billie Walsh wrote:

Big hassle. Plop in the CD that comes with whatever, click a few check box's, and it works. Bigger hassle, go to the web site and download a file. Run the file. Click a few check box's. It works.

OK, OK, OK! I know it's not a "LINUX" problem. HOWEVER, it is a problem FOR Linux.

Billie: That is the reason why Gates & Co are so big. They figured early on what it would take to get those ordinary morons to buy and use computers. As that old commercial said, "We don't want tunas with good taste, we want tuna that tastes good". Every Linux enthusiast who doesn't realize that you gotta "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" will never really understand what it takes to get Linux to the mass market. In today's reality Linux and, by extension, software that runs on that platform, is just too much of a hassle for most people to accept. Most people don't want to take the time to screw around with a tool that they are trying to use to do a job. Gates approach is absolutely correct. If it weren't, 80% or more of the world's computers wouldn't be running his software. If those in the Linux community want greater penetration of the market, their mindset has to change. Fred -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jonathan Ervine wrote:

On Saturday 26 January 2008 00:06:02 Billie Walsh wrote:

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Jonathan Ervine wrote:

...

On Friday 25 January 2008 11:58:30 Billie Walsh wrote:

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On 01/24/2008 Jonathan Ervine wrote:

<yet more snipping>

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Unlike some people I DO NOT keep every e-mail that comes through every list I'm on. I read and delete. If it's something that I feel is important I will save it to another folder. If it's REALLY important I will print it. "Threading" would do no good because there is nothing to "thread". Nothing in my "Trash" folder is over three days old. It automatically deletes anything over that. If I don't need it in three days I don't need it at all. I also don't read every header line for line. In fact all I see in the header field is Subject, From, Date, To. My preference.

Fair enough - I didn't know (and couldn't have known) how your email client/threading preferences are set up. Likewise you couldn't know mine. Your email appeared in a thread in the list as an immediate reply to a Linux kernel developer. And I really don't want to get into a posting/threading discussion...

Fair enough.

<snip> </snip> OK - back to your original query: Atheros wireless. Repos enabled, add the madwifi.org repo (clicks in boxes). Software installed and hardware detected by YaST?

Perhaps I didn't explain enough. The Madwifi/Atheros drivers seem to work just fine. IMHO, it's the wireless network software [ ie. - Kwifimanager, knetworkmanager, etc. ] that seems to be at fault. Or at least missing some very basic feature. With Kwifi Manager I can see every wireless connection around me, but so far I have been unable to find a "Connect" button. [ Have to fall back on a Windows ap for an example here. ] In XP, on the same setup, I can scan for wireless connections, highlight one and click on "Connect". Under KDE on my home network I can set up the "priority" connection to start on boot, but the settings keep getting "lost" somewhere after a boot or two. I have to go into setup and reconfigure everything again. Once it's configured and connected it works like a dream. If I'm traveling I don't particularly want my home network setting to load on boot. I want to scan for connections, pick out the hotel wifi, click "Connect" and fill in the WEP/password and go. It would be nice if the connection stayed configured until I tell it differently. Does anyone know where the "Connect" button is? Should I do a "bug/feature request" with KDE?

TV cards - well, you said yourself, they're a poor alternative to television, but check with myth-tv for well supported cards prior to buying.

I took a couple hours looking into Myth-TV. I decided it was just plain more trouble than it was worth to get setup. When I can get it to work KDETV seems to work pretty good unless your looking for some very advanced feature. In Yast>TVCard the card is listed and if I mess around with it long enough it will work. BUT, it's easier to just hit the "ON" button on the remote for the TV set. AND, here again, I seem to have to go through the setup every little bit. IMHO, If you want TV buy a television. If you want Linux based video capture buy a Tivo. [ Yes, they are Linux based ] Hard to believe that such a marvelous video capture/playback system can run on Linux but the average distro is such a pain. [ I know, it's all custom hardware and software, but...................] But that's just my own opinion.

As a general question, do Linux users not check whether their prospective purchase works? Video - use the in-kernel drivers. (I'm not talking 3D video by the way)

We have about six different pcmcia wifi cards around here. I did my home work before I did the install. I picked the one that had the supported Atheros chips. I wasn't going to dual boot until I had at least a 50/50 chance of getting it working. Many times it's not about what we would like to buy but what we already have or can afford to buy. Most of my equipment is older, used, stuff. I've had my TV cards since about Win98, first edition. [ I did recently buy a new Hauppage USB HD TV dongle. Got a SUPER deal on it. Have had zero luck with it in Linux so far. ] The wifi cards mostly came from the flea market for pennies on the dollar. Some stuff I buy on closeout if the price is cheap enough. It's not that I'm particularly cheap, just not a lot of disposable income for toys, and I DO like my toys. [ Ham radio and computers are NOT cheap hobbies. *<[:oD ]

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<snip> </snip> We do a little light tech support for a local ISP. I swear there are people out there that are just plain to stupid to even own a computer. About 90% are just barely able to turn one on and click the proper icon to start a program.

And these plain stupid people also have problems on Windows. The flip side to this wonderful, pop CD in and install the vendor drivers is all the other crap that they generally bundle with it that then gets installed also. As an example, I've seen a digital camera vendor install their own USB storage driver and some weird and wonderful photo management software. All very well, except when you plug in another USB storage device and it doesn't find the expected USB driver.

Agreed.

Besides which, if a user has made the decision to go to Linux, they're surely at a beyond average user level, and/or have access to knowledge or a friend who can help them with these issues. I'd hate to see a Linux forced on a user through no choice of their own. A system supplied by your employed I view differently, as it's essentially a tool for your job.

If OpenSuSE/Linux is ever going to be "mainstream" there are going to be a LOT of these stupid people around. What happens when one walks into Big Box and picks out a "cheap" laptop/desktop because it's what he can afford. It just so happens it has Linux installed at the factory. It will probably work just fine right out of the box because the manufacturer will have made sure it would. The sales person tells him not to worry, it's just like Windows. It's different, but workable with the little handbook to explain things. Now, he wants to install something different. A new piece of hardware lets say. The fun begins. Pretty soon he is telling everyone he sees what a lousy piece of crap that computer is and how terrible Linux is. Not the kind of advertisement the computer manufacturer wants or Linux needs. With Big Box now starting to sell cheaper Linux computers it could happen REAL soon. They sell a LOT of computers.

<yet more snipping>

...

I'm not complaining. Just stating fact.

Fair enough.

Jon

Fair enough? Friends? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Houston wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office, instead of how to use a computer or an office suite? Do you teach your kids how to drive a Ford? Or how to drive a car? We should be teaching skills, not products.

I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford. <g>

Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison. Cars are designed to be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight, cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes. Operating systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning curves.

Bull****. My cousin is a mechanical designer. He says the most frustrating thing are these ads requiring experience with Catia version X.Y or SDRC IDEAS version Z or UniGraphics whatever... It's all the same freaking thing Draw lines Mark angles and distances extrude sections Pick drawing sub-components and manipulate them Switching from one to the other is the same as going from a Plymouth to a Lincoln....itty bitty details differ, but the same basic principles apply. The only re-learning needed is to find out WHERE the headlight switch is, and how it operates, not an entire re-learning of the concept of headlights. The same goes for software which solves a similar task. The only problem with using Windows as the primary learning platform is that the whole MS training point of view is that of "how to use release X of MS software product Y" or "how to MS XP works"... instead of teaching general computing principles. No university-level CAD teacher worth listening to is going to speak about how to do things on one specific vendor's product without also discussing how the same principle applies on different products (community college "get your XXX accreditation" courses excluded). A long time ago, someone wrote the following: Learn Windows, and you know how to do things until Microsoft releases the next version; learn Unix, and you learn how to use all computers, forever.

I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux. Or that it shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice). But preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft applications isn't doing them a favor.

You think they're not going to be exposed to Windows and all of the associated crap just from attending school, and visiting other peoples's houses? Where are you that there's this incredible dearth of Windows machines... I want to move there!

You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.

So basically, you're saying that, if you don't serve your kids Coca-Cola in your own home, how will the poor dearies ever experience what it tastes like? Jerry, you worry too much. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 21 January 2008 12:30, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Jerry Houston wrote:

...

James Knott wrote:

...

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office, instead of how to use a computer or an office suite? Do you teach your kids how to drive a Ford? Or how to drive a car? We should be teaching skills, not products.

I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford. <g>

Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison. Cars are designed to be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight, cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes. Operating systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning curves.

Bull****.

Try running Pro-E when you have only experience in Auto-Cad, and see how far your argument gets you. Yes, Fords work like Chevys, but computer programs do not necessarily do so.

/snip/ doug Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Houston wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

Why is it that people have to learn Windows or Microsoft Office, instead of how to use a computer or an office suite? Do you teach your kids how to drive a Ford? Or how to drive a car? We should be teaching skills, not products.

I love my kids too much to teach them to drive a Ford. <g>

Seriously, I don't think it's a valid comparison. Cars are designed to be nearly universal, and those differences that exist (headlight, cruise, heater controls, etc.) can be figured out in minutes. Operating systems and the applications that run on them have much steeper learning curves.

I'm not suggesting that kids should't be exposed to Linux. Or that it shouldn't be their OS of choice (if it really is their choice). But preventing them from learning anything about Windows and Microsoft applications isn't doing them a favor.

You and I might prefer an open source world, but that's not the world most of us live in, and have to earn a living in.

I think this fear of not being sufficiently deeply steeped in mickeysoft trivia is a bit overblown. I'm with James on this one. Look at college degrees as an example. Let's say there are 2 degree programs you are considering, either for yourself or a child. Both schools grant a Bachelor's in computer science, but the approach is completely different. I will describe 2 actual schools, while protecting their names. At school A, the computer science department is run by the school of business. No hard science is required, and no math is required beyond "business math". The core curriculum teaches the use of products: ms word, ms excel, ms powerpoint, ms visual studio, ms iis. The students are taught in visual basic, with optional courses is visual c dot net. At school B, the computer science department is run by the school of mathematics and engineering. The CS degree requires calculus I II III, differential equations, linear algebra, discrete math, finite automata, probability and statistics, and 3 semesters of calculus based physics. The core CS curriculum covers assembly language programing, computer architecture, top down software design, algorithms and data structures, operating systems, and is taught for the most part in java, with mandatory coverage of c, c++, c#, lisp, prolog, fortran, and perl, with programming assignments due in each language, and a semester long programming project as part of a small team. Senior level courses include database design, www design and management, computer networks and other electives, of which 12 units must be taken. Which degree carries more weight? The one that teaches products, or the one that teaches the principles which will allow the student to learn and use any product? In the same vein, which is better? To teach someone about word processing, or to teach them ms word? Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Chris Ross wrote:

You've just proved my point really. It's that from my kids' point-of-view even if they do buy Linux games, with the penguin on the box and everything, they may or may not work. Whether it's old ones like Quake 3 or even new ones like Quake 4. I'm not arguing with you that they can get Dad to google for the answer, write some magic to the computer's boot scripts and finally, hopefully, they'll actually be able to play. That is exactly my point! The alternative is they can afford a couple of Windows games themselves, take them home and play them right away. As it is we *don't* have any Windows machines in the house, I won't let them. the kids don't understand why not though.

Agreed, it can be daunting for a private citizen with limited time and resources to try and get popular games properly set up on a linux box. IMHO the more games included with the distro the better, since such games tend to just work, the linux vendor having done all the work. But it is doable - I know of die-hard linux gamers who tweak their systems and run bleeding edge versions of wine or pay for commercial wine support to run popular windoze games. Personally I'd rather vote with my wallet to support companies who make native linux game, but to each his own.

I also agree with you about Quake 4. Our current favourite is "World of Padman" (http://www.worldofpadman.com/) based on the Quake 3 engine.

Interesting, hadn't heard of that one. BTW a good site for linux gaming support is linux-gamers.net Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, January 21, 2008 3:28 am, Chris Ross wrote:

Even the new Linux Quake 4 demo doesn't run on OpenSuSE 10.2 because the sound is all broken and horrible, let alone old bargain basement Windows games.

I had teh same problem on 10.2 and 10.3 - no valid sounds coming from it. I even tried many of the settings out there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joe Sloan wrote:

David wrote:

...

I only pop over to the XP side to play games.

It always strikes me as odd when I hear people say how 'bloze is so great for games. There is one thing in ms favor, and that is the availability of game titles, due to their large, long term market share.

But that's not to say that there are no games for linux. Over the years I've played games on linux (I kind of like the networked 3D FPS variety) starting with good old doom in the mid 90s, to doom 2, then quake, quake 2, quake 3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, ut2000, ut2004, Enemy Territory, and more, all 100% native linux games.

The problem is that right now, there is a dearth of Linux titles for modern games. A couple FPS have been ported, but ever since Loki went out of business, the opportunity to run things like RailRoad Tycoon, unfortunately depends on a Windows installation :-(.

There are of course a lot of games that are available for ms and not for linux, but you know what? I already spend way too much time gaming, but if I were really determined to play one of those games, I could run it under wine, or failing that, buy a console.

Unfortunately, DirectX is a moving target ... And I think a lot of this is purely for lock-in effect, and not much more.

At any rate, I don't feel the need, nor the faintest desire, to resort to wintendo for games, or anything else.

Joe

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Chris Ross wrote:

Aaron Kulkis escreveu:

...

The problem is that right now, there is a dearth of Linux titles for modern games. A couple FPS have been ported, but ever since Loki went out of business, the opportunity to run things like RailRoad Tycoon, unfortunately depends on a Windows installation :-(.

You're presumably aware of LGP who seem to have picked up the mantle from Loki in porting commercial games to Linux, even maintaining some of Loki's ports such as MindRover? http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com

Sadly, they seem to have a marketing budget of about 20p. I only discovered them by chance but we bought "x2: The Threat" from them and we're planning on buying more. Partly, truth be known, to support anybody brave enough to try creating a market for Linux games. I bought pretty much everything Loki published for similar reasons but it didn't seem to do them any good :(

I think one of the best policies is to mention these sorts of companies as much as possible -- word of mouth helps overcome a shoe-string advertising budget -- look at how many Linux web servers were set up in corporate environments before most people had even heard of Redhat. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:06:02 -0000, Philippe Landau wrote:

to get over this, and since then I only pop over to the XP side to play games. I wonder if I hadn't had such a bad feeling about MS in general and

I have yet another reason, the need to develop Windows software. It is hard to do serious development in a non-native environment or on a virtual machine. Divers in some cases are still an issue but there has been a tremendous improvement on that to what I remember 10 years ago when I started with linux systems. -- Marcin Floryan http://marcin.floryan.pl/ Please consider the environment before printing this email. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Marcin Floryan [01-21-08 05:00]:

...

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:06:02 -0000, Philippe Landau wrote:

...

to get over this, and since then I only pop over to the XP side to play games. I wonder if I hadn't had such a bad feeling about MS in general and

Why is this hijacked thread being propagated ad infinitum? another ?conversation? detracting from the usefulness of this forum! - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHlVZvClSjbQz1U5oRAmZwAJ0YXtDE1kVoHi6ntzQD/CeLrRYXbQCfeAdM xmmeFoMNEhQMzydQyvFXkY8= =Qgbs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun January 20 2008 3:06 am, Philippe Landau wrote:

Dave Barton wrote:

...

From: Philippe Landau

...

You are tenacious, Dave, great :-)

Some may say tenacious, others would say that I am too stupid to know when to give up. ;)

You wanted to but were kind enough to honour the efforts of list members :-)

...

...

Still no joy with Lilo ?

Did give LiLo a shot, but the situation is even worse. On boot I get half a screen full of 01s and then total lockup, requiring a hardware reset. Thanks for trying to help, but I am sad to say Microsoft has won this box.

Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ? Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved in selling Windows to governments and corporations. But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ? Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Kind regards Philippe

I suspect that many might use it as I do, for all net and surfing time, some personal apps, eg gnucash. Still have to keep a copy of Win around as I coach swim teams and the software written to manage my team, keep times, run meets, manage financials, etc, all run only on Win. Could call it a niche market and would be accurate, but too small a market I would think for a programmer to expect to get reimbursed for writing and maintaining a linux version or adapting from win to lin. My guess is that there are 100's, 1000's of similar stories of other apps that only run on win, too limited to entice a programmer and, eg, the number of swim coaches using lin is too small to force the swim program company to port the software to us, and no reason still why they should since users can still get and use win. Same goes for any number of other "little" apps, my new GPS enabled and scheduler sync-able phone comes to mind. Sync only to outlook and lotus. Bummer. Would love to be able to sync jpilot with it. And on and on. So I don't see one big reason for linus still being a small player, but rather lots of little ones. Just my $.02 Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun January 20 2008 9:17 am, James Knott wrote:

Richard wrote:

...

I suspect that many might use it as I do, for all net and surfing time, some personal apps, eg gnucash. Still have to keep a copy of Win around as I coach swim teams and the software written to manage my team, keep times, run meets, manage financials, etc, all run only on Win.

Have you tried running it under Wine?

-- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org

A couple of years ago...to no real success. Would run for a bit, then hang on some missing dll file or something like that. In the middle of running a meet with 300 kids, times of no more than 20 seconds between heats...can't handle little blips that I have to figure out. I am the coach. I set up the computer for others to run since I can do that, but I do not want to leave the deck to handle computer stuff. However unreliable win might be the program that runs on it is solid, stable, forgiving of errors by unsophisticated users, and does not lose data. I need to be able to take a non-program savy mom or dad, show them the program and in less than 10 minutes walk away and have them run it. I do appreciate the suggestion, and just for my own self-satisfaction, may give it a try again some time...but I think that still does not handle the essential issue of so many little apps that right now need win, do not run easily or at all on lin, so difficult to get most common users to switch. For example, when I got my phone I knew some great features would not be available if I did not run win to use them. I said, "fine, I'll do without those features." since I was not going to live in win. How many common win users would say that and then switch to lin just to give up those features, no matter what you might say about its essential stability, etc.? Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 20 January 2008 06:06, Philippe Landau wrote:

Dave Barton wrote:

...

From: Philippe Landau

...

You are tenacious, Dave, great :-)

Some may say tenacious, others would say that I am too stupid to know when to give up. ;)

You wanted to but were kind enough to honour the efforts of list members :-)

...

...

Still no joy with Lilo ?

Did give LiLo a shot, but the situation is even worse. On boot I get half a screen full of 01s and then total lockup, requiring a hardware reset. Thanks for trying to help, but I am sad to say Microsoft has won this box.

Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ? Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved in selling Windows to governments and corporations. But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ? Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Kind regards Philippe

From my own point of view, the lack of support for peripherals is one of the biggest problems for Linux. Yes, I know that the source codes are not available, and I'm not a real programmer myself, but some of this stuff could be reverse-engineered, rather than every six months a new version of the OS, full of bugs. Fix some version of Linux, then concentrate on getting things to work with it. When you can plug in almost any name-brand printer, almost any USB camera, drive, memory card, etc., then concentrate on getting unique Windows programs to work flawlessly by emulation--I think of AutoCad, GW Basic, Borland Pascal, Corel Draw, and so on (maybe some do already, but it's easier to just go to Windows to run them)--then I think Linux has a much better chance to catch on. While Linux seems to be pointed at the business world, which has, in general, a rather narrow batch of program types--word processing, spread sheets, and slide illustrations, and can pretty much do that, it needs to become more friendly to the home user, who would certainly prefer not to have to pay off M/S every year or so, as is becoming obviously their way of life. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."--Ann Landers. And, of course, games. I'm not a gamer. I play solitaire sometimes, but that's about it. But games would get a _big_ play (no pun intended) if there were a lot for Linux.

One problem I see: Linux is sorta free--if you don't want a lot of the good stuff*--but to get the freebie, you have to have a computer running an OS. It seems to be getting more expensive and complicated to get an OS on disk, so the idea of getting a version that does everything on an intallable disk set, with a manual, and is as bug-free as possible for a reasonable price, that I can buy, preferably at Borders, that will last for years, is something I would really appreciate. *SuSE/Novell has already cut out a lot of the good stuff that used to come with the OS. Free or paid. For SHAME! (It would seem to me that an entrepenour who sold the "good stuff" on a disk compatible with SuSE could make a buck at it. Except that the damned dependencies seem to change with every version.) --doug Blessed are the peacemakers ... for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett wrote:

On Sunday 20 January 2008 06:06, Philippe Landau wrote:

...

Dave Barton wrote:

...

From: Philippe Landau

...

You are tenacious, Dave, great :-) Some may say tenacious, others would say that I am too stupid to know when to give up. ;) You wanted to but were kind enough to honour the efforts of list members :-)

...

...

Still no joy with Lilo ? Did give LiLo a shot, but the situation is even worse. On boot I get half a screen full of 01s and then total lockup, requiring a hardware reset. Thanks for trying to help, but I am sad to say Microsoft has won this box. Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ? Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved in selling Windows to governments and corporations. But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ? Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Kind regards Philippe

...

From my own point of view, the lack of support for peripherals is one of the biggest problems for Linux. Yes, I know that the source codes are not available, and I'm not a real programmer myself, but some of this stuff could be reverse-engineered, rather than every six months a new version of the OS, full of bugs. Fix some version of Linux, then concentrate on getting things to work with it. When you can plug in almost any name-brand printer, almost any USB camera, drive, memory card, etc.,

That's the current state right now, Canon printers being the primary exclusion (they refuse to release technical data to allow the development of proper code to get full utilization of their printers. My solution -- I buy equipment from everyone except Canon (my digital camera is an exception, because it DOES work with Linux through the USB port, and I have a significant investement in lenses with my Canon EOS 10 film camera)

then concentrate on getting unique Windows programs to work flawlessly by emulation--I think of AutoCad, GW Basic, Borland Pascal, Corel Draw, and so on (maybe some do already, but it's easier to just go to Windows to run them)

With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port to Linux. Much of the CAD industry, which used to be almost exclusively on proprietary Unix platforms (and optionally on Windows) has been ported to Linux. If all of the niche applications which support 3 or 4 kinds of Unix, and Windows can also support Linux, then it shouldn't be a problem for AutoCad to port to Linux. Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but small to medium-sized IT departments can. You tell the AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want to continue selling, they have to keep up. IF not, you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other product that fits into your company's plans to NOT migrate to Vista. The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant motivator to these sorts of companies.

--then I think Linux has a much better chance to catch on. While Linux seems to be pointed at the business world, which has, in general, a rather narrow batch of program types--word processing, spread sheets, and slide illustrations, and can pretty much do that, it needs to become more friendly to the home user, who would certainly prefer not to have to pay off M/S every year or so, as is becoming obviously their way of life. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."--Ann Landers. And, of course, games. I'm not a gamer. I play solitaire sometimes, but that's about it. But games would get a _big_ play (no pun intended) if there were a lot for Linux.

Sales of "consumer" software for the IBM PC didn't come around until there was a significant installed base on business-world desktops -- because that caused a significant amount of sales of PC clones for home use. Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops, the share of home usage will start to expand significantly, and at that point, THEN you will see consumer-type software being written and sold for Linux.

One problem I see: Linux is sorta free--if you don't want a lot of the good stuff*--but to get the freebie, you have to have a computer running an OS. It seems to be getting more expensive and complicated to get an OS on disk, so the idea of getting a version that does everything on an intallable disk set, with a manual, and is as bug-free as possible for a reasonable price, that I can buy, preferably at Borders, that will last for years, is something I would really appreciate.

*SuSE/Novell has already cut out a lot of the good stuff that used to come with the OS. Free or paid. For SHAME! (It would seem to me that an entrepenour who sold the "good stuff" on a disk compatible with SuSE could make a buck at it. Except that the damned dependencies seem to change with every version.)

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M. Fioretti wrote:

On Mon, January 21, 2008 4:58 am, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port to Linux.... Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but small to medium-sized IT departments can. You tell the AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want to continue selling, they have to keep up. IF not, you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other product that fits into your company's plans to NOT migrate to Vista.

The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant motivator to these sorts of companies.

The problem is that such threats are only plausible if the customer doesn't have plenty of data locked in a format that only Autocad can fully understand, or will never receive from partners or potential customers files in such formats that need to be read or modified. Not really likely, see:

cfr the Autocad paragraph and links in the second part of: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history/

There are industry standard file formats for CAD/CAM, and AutoCad can export and import to those formats.

Same scenario here:

...

Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops

this won't happen until those business users continue to receive (or are required to send) files in the latest Microsoft Office formats, whatever that is in any given moment.

In both cases, the most effective strategy, even if it's unglamourous, to get to the point where you can really do everything you need under Linux may be to demand laws that force all Public Administrations to only accept, store or distribute files in non proprietary formats, or at least formats that are 100% guaranteed to be fully usable under any operating system, with _more_ than one software program.

That helps.

Once businesses know that to keep selling goods or services to the state or city Government they MUST deliver contracts, bids, technical drawings, whatever, in formats that are completely usable with any operating sytems, the rest will happen by itself.

Very true. Which is why MS is paranoid about ODF.

And much sooner than if we wait for businesses who couldn't care less of the license of the software they use, not when changing it would make their existing files less readable (= interfere with "business as usual").

Marco

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

There's a good article this month in Dr. Dobbs' Journal about the Brazilian development culture. They have always had a 'must be grown here' ethic. They banned DOS in the 80's, wrote LUA, and adopted Linux three years ago as a government IT plan. It's only second to the US in number of skilled developers. Sun GPL'd java because of Brazil. And if Microsoft doesn't at least open up the sources for their libraries, eventually people are going to stop slamming their hand in the door on purpose and write in an environment where they do have source for the libraries. Seriously, grepping through libraries beats printStackTrace(). Why would you pay for pain when there is pain and pleasure for free? :) Linc Lincoln Rutledge Network Engineer OSC Networking 800-627-6420

...

...

"M. Fioretti" 01/25/08 8:55 AM >>>

On Mon, January 21, 2008 4:58 am, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

With AutoCad, the better approach is to get them to port to Linux.... Of course, this is difficult to do as individuals, but small to medium-sized IT departments can. You tell the AutoCad rep that the company's strategic direction is to move from Winows XP to Linux, and that if they want to continue selling, they have to keep up. IF not, you're going to be buying SDRC Ideas, or some other product that fits into your company's plans to NOT migrate to Vista.

The threat of permanent loss of sales is an excellant motivator to these sorts of companies.

The problem is that such threats are only plausible if the customer doesn't have plenty of data locked in a format that only Autocad can fully understand, or will never receive from partners or potential customers files in such formats that need to be read or modified. Not really likely, see: cfr the Autocad paragraph and links in the second part of: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/focus_format_history/ Same scenario here:

Once Linux captures a significant share of business desktops

this won't happen until those business users continue to receive (or are required to send) files in the latest Microsoft Office formats, whatever that is in any given moment. In both cases, the most effective strategy, even if it's unglamourous, to get to the point where you can really do everything you need under Linux may be to demand laws that force all Public Administrations to only accept, store or distribute files in non proprietary formats, or at least formats that are 100% guaranteed to be fully usable under any operating system, with _more_ than one software program. Once businesses know that to keep selling goods or services to the state or city Government they MUST deliver contracts, bids, technical drawings, whatever, in formats that are completely usable with any operating sytems, the rest will happen by itself. And much sooner than if we wait for businesses who couldn't care less of the license of the software they use, not when changing it would make their existing files less readable (= interfere with "business as usual"). Marco -- Help *everybody* love Free Standards and Software: http://digifreedom.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Marcin Floryan wrote:

On 25/01/2008, Lincoln Rutledge wrote:

...

And if Microsoft doesn't at least open up the sources for their libraries, eventually people are going to stop slamming their hand in the door on purpose and write in an environment where they do have source for the libraries.

Actually, I think they have realised that and have recently release the source code for the .NET platform. Though it might be too sensitive to release source for other products ;-)

Yeah... instead of merely being suspected as shoddily-written products, they will be PROVEN to be shoddily-written products. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Feldman wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:06:02 +0100 Philippe Landau wrote:

...

Did anyone ever attempt to make a systematic survey of reasons why Linux remains such a small player ? Of course corruption on a massive scale is involved in selling Windows to governments and corporations. But why is the percentage of surfers using Linux so small ? Is it mainly because of the games or are the shortcomings of Linux an important factor and which ones most ?

Marketing and timing. First, today Linux is a good desktop product, but still needs a bit of polish for the average PC user. But the problem is marketing. Microsoft buys big TV ads and has the clout and volume to get the major PC vendors to bundle their products. HP, IBM, SGI market their servers with Linux, but currently only Dell even sells consumer PCs with Linux.

Actually, Lenovo does too and I think I heard something about HP. And there are many smaller vendors that sell computers with Linux Also, both Sears & Wal-Mart in the U.S. are selling low end computers with Linux installed. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org