[opensuse] On the topic of thread hijacks
For your consideration: two people talking publicly -- one asks a proper question to the surrounding populace, get's an answer from a second in the crowd. first formulates a reply, and get's another answer from that same person. At this point a third party steps up and, for all intents and purposes interrupts, shouting at both (and anyone in earshot) "'you're doing it wrong!" Is this extremely rude? I find this is not only quite rude but highly insulting. In a face to face situation, I am entirely likely to tell the offender to shut up and go away. If I've seen this person do this repeatedly, I'm quite likely to be quite angry and heated about it. As long as I don't lay hands on, I'm actually fine, but s/he's quite likely to have hurt feelings and feel insulted while totally ignoring the insult they've already delivered. Is that OK? Is there a better way to address it? Some might say I've done the best thing possible in the first option... The conversation moves forward after a bit of tense back and forth. Some might say what I need to do is go and get a "cop" and have the rude, insulting, anti-social person addressed officially. Here, it seems the later is preferable... And I find myself in agreement. In the long haul, calling a cop (list admin?) clears the problem up. While the first one may FEEL faster, it actually doesn't fix the problem of individuals who feel entitled to force themselves into discussions while offer nothing of substance to that discussion. My apologies to all for my poor judgment. I did neither the list nor myself any service that way. In the future, I'll ignore miscreants and just mail the list admin. 'nuff said -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:12:02 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote:
Is that OK? Is there a better way to address it?
Some might say I've done the best thing possible in the first option... The conversation moves forward after a bit of tense back and forth.
Some might say what I need to do is go and get a "cop" and have the rude, insulting, anti-social person addressed officially. Here, it seems the later is preferable... And I find myself in agreement.
In the long haul, calling a cop (list admin?) clears the problem up. While the first one may FEEL faster, it actually doesn't fix the problem of individuals who feel entitled to force themselves into discussions while offer nothing of substance to that discussion.
It's been my experience over the years that this is the better way to handle it. I can't ever remember seeing anyone respond to a person causing a problem on these mailing lists with aggression and them backing down. It has *always* escalated the situation and made things worse, without exception. This is particularly true with known toxic personalities whose only mission in life seems to be to be disruptive. They thrive on the attention they get when people start yelling back at them, and it poisons the entire list. That is part of the reason I've limited my participation on this particular list. Coming in here and seeing people who are ostensibly adults yelling things at each other like "but he started it!" doesn't make me feel like this list is where adult conversations go on. My advice: Ignore them and let the list admin handle them. Since the list admins need to know, just report it privately and let them sort it out. The following is not directed at any particular individual: I don't really give a damn who started it. It's disheartening - not fun - to see adults behave like children. If I wanted to see this kind of behaviour, I'd go read the comments section on a news website. Hell, I've seen better behaviour amongst kids in a schoolyard. If you must disagree with someone (and we certainly should not all be in complete agreement about everything!), do it without being disagreeable, offensive, or engaging in personal attacks. You're not impressing anyone by doing that, and you're certainly not making the person you disagree with respect your opinion by throwing a tantrum like a two-year-old. Focus on the issue, not the person. If you're focusing on the person, your focus is in the wrong place for *any* of these mailing lists, IMNSHO. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/27/2014 01:32 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
It's been my experience over the years that this is the better way to handle it. I can't ever remember seeing anyone respond to a person causing a problem on these mailing lists with aggression and them backing down. It has *always* escalated the situation and made things worse, without exception. This is particularly true with known toxic personalities whose only mission in life seems to be to be disruptive. They thrive on the attention they get when people start yelling back at them, and it poisons the entire list. That is part of the reason I've limited my participation on this particular list. Coming in here and seeing people who are ostensibly adults yelling things at each other like "but he started it!" doesn't make me feel like this list is where adult conversations go on. My advice: Ignore them and let the list admin handle them. Since the list admins need to know, just report it privately and let them sort it out. The following is not directed at any particular individual: I don't really give a damn who started it. It's disheartening - not fun - to see adults behave like children. If I wanted to see this kind of behaviour, I'd go read the comments section on a news website. Hell, I've seen better behaviour amongst kids in a schoolyard. If you must disagree with someone (and we certainly should not all be in complete agreement about everything!), do it without being disagreeable, offensive, or engaging in personal attacks. You're not impressing anyone by doing that, and you're certainly not making the person you disagree with respect your opinion by throwing a tantrum like a two-year-old. Focus on the issue, not the person. If you're focusing on the person, your focus is in the wrong place for *any* of these mailing lists, IMNSHO. Jim shame facedly admitting you are 100% correct Jim.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2014-06-27 at 20:32 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:12:02 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote:
My advice: Ignore them and let the list admin handle them. Since the list admins need to know, just report it privately and let them sort it out.
But you see, there was a thread hijack, although not started by Bruce, and it is against the "rules". So it is quite possible that the mail admin, if he had the capability to react quick, might have closed that thread right at the start, before any one had time to complain about it ;-)
The following is not directed at any particular individual:
I don't really give a damn who started it. It's disheartening - not fun - to see adults behave like children. If I wanted to see this kind of behaviour, I'd go read the comments section on a news website. Hell, I've seen better behaviour amongst kids in a schoolyard.
If you must disagree with someone (and we certainly should not all be in complete agreement about everything!), do it without being disagreeable, offensive, or engaging in personal attacks. You're not impressing anyone by doing that, and you're certainly not making the person you disagree with respect your opinion by throwing a tantrum like a two-year-old.
Focus on the issue, not the person. If you're focusing on the person, your focus is in the wrong place for *any* of these mailing lists, IMNSHO.
I agree. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlOuIsAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vo0ACfVQpfwK/qWjAR2VbNRCQbXF9k Sc0AoIG/8GerIk9nhhm963clSWp839hn =E/pH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/27/2014 07:04 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On Friday, 2014-06-27 at 20:32 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:12:02 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote:
My advice: Ignore them and let the list admin handle them. Since the list admins need to know, just report it privately and let them sort it out.
But you see, there was a thread hijack, although not started by Bruce, and it is against the "rules". So it is quite possible that the mail admin, if he had the capability to react quick, might haveI closed that thread right at the start, before any one had time to complain about it ;-)
Carlos, there was NO highjack. Not by me, not by the person responding to me. This was diagnosed by Per to be factual. There was NO breach of community standards until accusations started flying. That said, as I have agreed to do with the list administrator, I am requesting the list administrator intervene in your effort to re-inflame this issue. In that way we CAN focus on poor behavior. Henne, Please help here.
The following is not directed at any particular individual:
I don't really give a damn who started it. It's disheartening - not fun - to see adults behave like children. If I wanted to see this kind of behaviour, I'd go read the comments section on a news website. Hell, I've seen better behaviour amongst kids in a schoolyard.
If you must disagree with someone (and we certainly should not all be in complete agreement about everything!), do it without being disagreeable, offensive, or engaging in personal attacks. You're not impressing anyone by doing that, and you're certainly not making the person you disagree with respect your opinion by throwing a tantrum like a two-year-old.
Focus on the issue, not the person. If you're focusing on the person, your focus is in the wrong place for *any* of these mailing lists, IMNSHO.
I agree.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlOuIsAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vo0ACfVQpfwK/qWjAR2VbNRCQbXF9k Sc0AoIG/8GerIk9nhhm963clSWp839hn =E/pH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-06-28 04:39, Bruce Ferrell wrote:
On 06/27/2014 07:04 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But you see, there was a thread hijack, although not started by Bruce, and it is against the "rules". So it is quite possible that the mail admin, if he had the capability to react quick, might haveI closed that thread right at the start, before any one had time to complain about it ;-)
Carlos, there was NO highjack. Not by me, not by the person responding to me. This was diagnosed by Per to be factual. There was NO breach of community standards until accusations started flying.
I'm sorry to say that on the contrary, there was. Everybody can see it here: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2014-06/threads6.html> when we search for this (culprit) message: Re: [opensuse] Asus G750JW wifi (Broadcom BCM4352) and kernel 3.15, Rainer Klier (Mon Jun 23 11:59:34 GMT 2014) And Per agreed with this, I have his message in view.
That said, as I have agreed to do with the list administrator, I am requesting the list administrator intervene in your effort to re-inflame this issue. In that way we CAN focus on poor behavior.
Henne,
Please help here.
Yes, I agree that Henne should intervene. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlOuNisACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X0kwCfXatugLQBtA3Un9CczOZ3jXq/ FFwAnRiBtvSbBexwECsDOYbG2JrPqGe2 =74X+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:27:39 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I'm sorry to say that on the contrary, there was.
This is not helpful, Carlos. Please stop. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-06-28 07:29, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:27:39 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I'm sorry to say that on the contrary, there was.
This is not helpful, Carlos. Please stop.
Sorry, Jim, I will. There are several sides to the issue, but we must not confuse the facts. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlOunEwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W/JgCePDhTz8UyhH9ngtgOk0cU2Cnv dlkAniiI7H0HPGw0Ruf0OrYMvb4DTr2a =JVBi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 28.06.2014 04:39, Bruce Ferrell wrote:
Henne, Please help here.
How about all of us try to focus on the non-personal side of things for a while? It's very hard to understand each others feelings and moods over cables that cross countries, continents and oceans. It almost always goes wrong. And this list, currently, is the best example of this. So how about we leave the personal-side be for a while? Every time you are annoyed by something someone did, don't hit the send button. Every time you are angry at someone for whatever reason, just don't write that mail. Just let it be. Maybe over time, we can concentrate on the positive personal aspects of this list which are certainly way bigger then the negative. We're a very diverse bunch of people from all over the world, from many different cultures, with very different backgrounds that help each other out to get the most out of openSUSE. We all are here to reach the same goal, let's behave accordingly :-) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:04:48 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But you see, there was a thread hijack, although not started by Bruce, and it is against the "rules". So it is quite possible that the mail admin, if he had the capability to react quick, might have closed that thread right at the start, before any one had time to complain about it ;-)
Something else I don't particularly care about. Thread drift happens. Fact of life. When people talk about stuff, it causes tangents to happen. It should be kept to a minimum, but focusing on it to the point that it disrupts the entire list isn't helpful, nor is launching into a deep investigation of "whose fault it is". That's something else that's best ignored, or just brought to the attention of the list admin to deal with. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/27/2014 10:28 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:04:48 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But you see, there was a thread hijack, although not started by Bruce, and it is against the "rules". So it is quite possible that the mail admin, if he had the capability to react quick, might have closed that thread right at the start, before any one had time to complain about it ;-) Something else I don't particularly care about. Thread drift happens. Fact of life. When people talk about stuff, it causes tangents to happen. It should be kept to a minimum, but focusing on it to the point that it disrupts the entire list isn't helpful, nor is launching into a deep investigation of "whose fault it is".
That's something else that's best ignored, or just brought to the attention of the list admin to deal with.
Jim
Exactly so Jim! The primary purpose of the list isn't to comply with some set of customs, but to provide support. As they say in other places +1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I did not see the first message(s) that allegedly hijacked some other thread. From my POV, it looked like the subsequent replies to the thread got somehow tacked on to another thread. AFAIK, it happens from time to time. It's anyone's guess how but I can think of a few ways it can happen automatically, magically, and without anyone's help, whether intentionally or accidentally or negligently. And I have seen it happen before without any living human's help at all with mailman. Even if it were intentional, that is not enough of a justification to be the list borg, demanding or ordering people to comply with list rules, list etiquette or whatever else. If it were intentional, then, "You've Been Trolled(tm)!" +1 for the troll. If it were accidental, then "Oops! You've Been (accidentally) Trolled(tm)!" +2 for Mr. Accidental Troll. And if no one did it, well, who's the idiot? +5 for the nonexistent troll. Either way, there's no excuse. Funny thing, there exists etiquette for dealing with slips in etiquette. How is it that some people can remember the rules and etiquette that people should follow unless it's themselves and then they completely forget or ignore them? Too eager to correct others that they neglect themselves? Or rules don't apply to them? If the latter, please come and stay as my guest in Hotel D'Plonk. Forever. You'll have plenty of company, I guarantee. This is out of hand. Seriously. jd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
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Bruce Ferrell -
Carlos E. R. -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdebert -
Jim Henderson