On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 10:45:04PM +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 18 September 2010, Oliver Kullmann wrote:

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Hello,

I searched "everything", but can't find how to have on one virtual desktops only the applications started there in the panel?

I have 20 (i.e., maximum) virtual desktops, each with on the average 10 applications --- having them all the panel is pointless.

Hope somebody knows how to do that.

Right-click somewhere among the applications in the panel and select "task manager settings", and in there select "only show tasks from current desktop"

thanks! Meanwhile I found that myself. However although I'm trying now for a week (and before that on several other occasions) to befriend with KDE 4.x, the performance in the core aspects is still worse than what I have with Suse 9.2 (!) on my old laptop. Perhaps somebody knows something about the following problems: 1. From "time to time" it happens that after a restart all Dolphin-windows are inserted into the taskbar of the last window. 2. How to find out efficiently on which virtual desktop you are on? It seems that the virtual-desktop-button should show some blackness, but either if the virtual desktop is empty or has a bit more windows on it, that this becomes invisible. A solution could be to disable the useless attempt of showing windows in the buttons, but I couldn't find yet how to achieve that. (The KDE with Suse 9.2 just shows a clearly marked virtual-desktop-button.) Thanks for your attention! Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 02:40:02PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Oliver Kullmann [09-20-10 14:23]:

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2. How to find out efficiently on which virtual desktop you are on? It seems that the virtual-desktop-button should show some blackness, but either if the virtual desktop is empty or has a bit more windows on it, that this becomes invisible. A solution could be to disable the useless attempt of showing windows in the buttons, but I couldn't find yet how to achieve that.

Did you try <right><click> on the pager (virtual-desktop-button) and looking thru "pager settings"?

Yes, but under "General" there is not much, and I use that (except of "Display icons" --- yet I couldn't find out what that is about --- I try to look sharply at the desktop, but can't see any difference). Don't know what "Keyboard Shortcut" is about (no explanations, and a larger and explained menu is available under "System Settings").

Remember that that "useless attempt of showing windows" may suit other users needs and many of your requirements/needs/comments are "useless" to them. A better choice of words would be beneficial.

Then the notion "useless" would become useless (eliminated from the lexicon); obviously every statement in such a context needs to be understood in the context of the usage pattern under discussion. Actually, this is what would be most needed (and seems to be completely missing) in "human-computer interaction" ("user-interface studies" etc.), an attempt at understanding the various patterns of usage, in a really "sharp" way, not at all in the PC-motivated direction, "every pattern is well and fine", which just disables discussion. When installing a Linux distribution, perhaps the first question would be about the general usage patterns (which might already be accessible from some central location), and then everything would be guided by these choices. Of course, in the current general climate (I mean all of society) this would just result in the elimination of variation, since, as everybody knows, the consumer just wants one thing, and the producers know exactly what that is. However, in a really open (and research-minded) environment, I think it is the way to go. That is, I believe the preferences for this or that colour, button, mouse stroke etc. is actually structured, not randomly distributed. It makes sense, I believe (and thus needs discussion!). Okay, just to mention. Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 06:15:38PM -0400, dwgallien wrote:

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1. From "time to time" it happens that after a restart all Dolphin-windows are inserted into the taskbar of the last window.

You might want to think about upgrading to 4.5, a *lot* of improvements.

Yet I never dared to perform such an operation. Not that I have a problem installing software (I develop open-source software myself), but this I always confine to local installations, while the prospect of me being unable to work since the desktop somehow crashes I don't like. It seems that upgrading to 4.5 you can't do within the Suse-Yast framework?

...

2. How to find out efficiently on which virtual desktop you are on? It seems that the virtual-desktop-button should show some blackness, but either if the virtual desktop is empty or has a bit more windows on it, that this becomes invisible. A solution could be to disable the useless attempt of showing windows in the buttons, but I couldn't find yet how to achieve that.

Right-click on the Pager, check out the various new settings. And when you hover over a virtual desktop you should see a pop-up that lists all the windows on that desktop.

This is helpful, but doesn't solve the problem of finding out where you are right now (say, after logging in).

Also might want to try different themes; you may get more of the contrast you were looking for.

The Geek-theme helped in general, but the display of the current virtual desktop is very hard to see: If I tilt the laptop, to have an optimal angle, and then stare at all the virtual-desktop-buttons, then I can see it, but under normal condition at least to me it's not visible. Thanks! Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 12:22:44PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

Oliver Kullmann said the following on 09/21/2010 12:08 PM:

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It seems that upgrading to 4.5 you can't do within the Suse-Yast framework?

It depends on how you interpret that. Yast uses the Zypper library and the 'how to' of various 4.x upgrades using zypper's command line have been discussed here.

However if you want to use the GUI based package and software manager out of Yast, you can; just take the same parameters and "fill in the form".

I've done it both ways at various times.

Thanks, I'll try it (after the conference ;-)).

...

The Geek-theme helped in general, but the display of the current virtual desktop is very hard to see: If I tilt the laptop, to have an optimal angle, and then stare at all the virtual-desktop-buttons, then I can see it, but under normal condition at least to me it's not visible.

How high is you panel? I found that setting it a little larger makes it easier to see the various icons and text.

Of course there are many other ways to make it hard to see, like making it transparent or not using a high contrast theme or setting. There are many, many themes. Many of the ones that have been 'recommended' here at various times I find difficult to use for similar reasons. YMMV. Find one that meets your needs. Really. "The Truth is out there".

For the moment it's now alright, and perhaps things change with 4.5, so I wait until I have installed it.

Failing to configure for visibility does not make the software in any way deficient.

Sure. thanks! Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Right-click on the Pager, check out the various new settings. And when you hover over a virtual desktop you should see a pop-up that lists all the windows on that desktop.

This is helpful, but doesn't solve the problem of finding out where you are right now (say, after logging in).

I wonder if under Desktop Effects, one of the Window Management effects might be a solution? Box Switch, Cover Switch, and Flip Switch all use Alt-Tab to scroll through all windows in a pop-up list. Desktop Grid will display all virtual desktops organized in a grid, showing the windows that are in each; essentially a magnified view of the Pager (and you also can drag windows between the desktops here). Present Windows will display all windows on all desktops or just those windows on the current desktop or just those windows that belong to the same "class".

Forgot to add . . . Under Virtual Desktops, there are/can be added keystroke combinations to navigate between the desktops. Personally, I use Desktop Grid; I didn't mention that in the display, the particular desktop you are currently on is highlighted. IMO much easier that using the Pager for determining where you are/want to be. And fwiw, in KDE 4 like KDE 3 you can define at login whether you want to start with an empty session vs restore the previous session vs restore a manually save (at logout) session. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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I wonder if under Desktop Effects, one of the Window Management effects might be a solution? Box Switch, Cover Switch, and Flip Switch all use Alt-Tab to scroll through all windows in a pop-up list. Desktop Grid will display all virtual desktops organized in a grid, showing the windows that are in each; essentially a magnified view of the Pager (and you also can drag windows between the desktops here). Present Windows will display all windows on all desktops or just those windows on the current desktop or just those windows that belong to the same "class".

Forgot to add . . . Under Virtual Desktops, there are/can be added keystroke combinations to navigate between the desktops. Personally, I use Desktop Grid; I didn't mention that in the display, the particular desktop you are currently on is highlighted. IMO much easier that using the Pager for determining where you are/want to be.

And fwiw, in KDE 4 like KDE 3 you can define at login whether you want to start with an empty session vs restore the previous session vs restore a manually save (at logout) session.

I don't understand you here. You mean "Multiple Desktops -- System Settings", the tab "Switching"? There is a list of possible shortcuts, for "next desktop" etc.; I use a few of them. However I can't find anything like "Desktop Grid"? Perhaps it is a "desktop effect"? I have disabled them, and actually I can't enable them, since the ATI driver is there, but when I installed it a week ago, then thereafter the machine badly crashed, and I had to re-install Suse (this was with 11.3; with 11.2 the ATI driver worked, however was incompatible with the broadcom wireless driver).

The plan is for now to not use the ATI driver, actually starting working with the laptop (yet I'm still just installing), and hoping that there will be better drivers out there later.

Of course, since I have populated all the virtual desktops, I have to use "restore previous session".

Oliver

Yes, these are "desktop effects" - as in "I wonder if under Desktop Effects . . . ". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Oliver Kullmann said the following on 09/21/2010 06:14 PM:

Currently I can't use the desktop effects (ATI driver not working), but hopefully at some point I can try it out.

Which "ATI Driver"? What hardware? I've got all the desktop effects discussed here working on my Presario laptop with the 'radeon' driver. Maybe you should just remove /etc/X11/xorg.conf and let the X driver figure things out for itself. That's what I did and I got good results. Stop trying to second-guess the software. It has the experience of experts embedded. There are also a lot of experts here, I've found, when I have the humility to listen to them :-) -- The chief forms of beauty are order and symmetry and definiteness, which the mathematical sciences demonstrate in a special degree. - Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), Metaphysics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Oliver Kullmann said the following on 09/21/2010 07:06 PM:

More precisely, I actually didn't install the ATI/Radeon drivers myself, but our technicians did that.

LOL

First with Suse 11.2, downloaded from the ATI homepage (incompatible with the broadcom driver, so switched to 11.3). Second time with 11.3, now just the Yast package (crashed). Since I didn't do it myself, I cannot really explain more. Next time I'll attempt it myself.

Accountability is useful.

It's for ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5450.

As I suggested, jut delete (or rename) /etc/X11/xorg.conf and reboot. The basic radeon driver will give you all those useful ways to presenting windows and screens that have been discussed. The xorg.conf, or more likely the specific entries in the directory /etc/X11/xorg.con.d/ are there to suplement or override. You no longer need to define your whole coniguration. The xorg driver has the smarts and pretty good smarts they are as far as the radeon family goes. -- System Integrity Revisited Rebecca T. Mercuri and Peter G. Neumann Inside Risks 127, CACM 44, 1 January 2001 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Oliver Kullmann said the following on 09/21/2010 07:50 PM:

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It's for ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5450.

As I suggested, jut delete (or rename) /etc/X11/xorg.conf and reboot. The basic radeon driver will give you all those useful ways to presenting windows and screens that have been discussed.

I did that, but apparently nothing changed: "desktop effects" are still not possible (when trying to apply them, there is a warning saying that there is an X-problem, and that the settings will be reverted; the generic radeon-driver is installed).

Perhaps you'd care to share with us the relevant contents of the logfiles so that we might have a better understanding of what actually happened as reported by the application. The raedon driver does work for many of us, myself included, so this has to be one of those "devil in the details" of your configuration, and unless they are sorted out the enhancements that Will Stephenson talks of will not be available to you. -- An expert is someone who knows some of the worst mistakes that can be made in his subject and how to avoid them. --Werner Heisenberg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 22/09/10 17:41, John Andersen wrote:

On 9/22/2010 4:25 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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The raedon driver does work for many of us, myself included, so this has to be one of those "devil in the details" of your configuration, and unless they are sorted out the enhancements that Will Stephenson talks of will not be available to you.

It sort of works. But its dog slow. Google earth is barely usable. Gaming is out. And the ATI distributed driver packages no longer install. The lower numbered Mobility Radeon chipsets are pretty much dependent on Mesa, and its pathetic.

Yeah, the RPMs in the ati driver repository are broken, and the ati driver installer you download directly from the website is a mess. If it helps you, I posted a howto build the RPMs using the OBS instead Its a bit more bandwidth intensive than compiling it yourself, but it results in a cleaner package - the same quality as the ati repository but up-to-date and working. I did this for the recent 10.9 (8.771) driver release and have been enjoying life since. http://masterpatricko.blogspot.com/2010/09/building-ati-fglrx-rpms-for-opens... Regards, Tejas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 22/09/10 18:34, John Andersen wrote:

On 9/22/2010 10:29 AM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

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Yeah, the RPMs in the ati driver repository are broken, and the ati driver installer you download directly from the website is a mess. If it helps you, I posted a howto build the RPMs using the OBS instead Its a bit more bandwidth intensive than compiling it yourself, but it results in a cleaner package - the same quality as the ati repository but up-to-date and working. I did this for the recent 10.9 (8.771) driver release and have been enjoying life since. http://masterpatricko.blogspot.com/2010/09/building-ati-fglrx-rpms-for-opens...

This looks very interesting.

Will this work for a Mobility Radeon X1400 chipset with the 10.9 driver?

I travel with my laptop a lot, and I find that my Android phone is actually faster with Google Earth then the Core 2 Duo using mesa.

The instructions wont work exactly as I posted them - you need Catalyst 9.3 (8.593) instead, but this is also available from the OBS. Follow the instructions I gave, but substitute "ati-fglrxG01" instead of G02 in the checkout stage, and don't change the source versions - leave them at 8.593. If you get stuck let me know. The package includes patches to build against kernel-2.6.33. Regards, Tejas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 09/22/2010 02:08 PM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

On 22/09/10 18:34, John Andersen wrote:

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On 9/22/2010 10:29 AM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

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Yeah, the RPMs in the ati driver repository are broken, and the ati driver installer you download directly from the website is a mess. If it helps you, I posted a howto build the RPMs using the OBS instead Its a bit more bandwidth intensive than compiling it yourself, but it results in a cleaner package - the same quality as the ati repository but up-to-date and working. I did this for the recent 10.9 (8.771) driver release and have been enjoying life since. http://masterpatricko.blogspot.com/2010/09/building-ati-fglrx-rpms-for-opens...

This looks very interesting.

Will this work for a Mobility Radeon X1400 chipset with the 10.9 driver?

I travel with my laptop a lot, and I find that my Android phone is actually faster with Google Earth then the Core 2 Duo using mesa.

The instructions wont work exactly as I posted them - you need Catalyst 9.3 (8.593) instead, but this is also available from the OBS. Follow the instructions I gave, but substitute "ati-fglrxG01" instead of G02 in the checkout stage, and don't change the source versions - leave them at 8.593. If you get stuck let me know. The package includes patches to build against kernel-2.6.33.

Regards, Tejas

I seem to remember this happening back in prior releases as well. No clue what to do about this error: CC [M] /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.o /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.c: In function 'KCL_IOCTL_AllocUserSpace32': /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.c:196:5: error: implicit declaration of function 'compat_alloc_user_space' <--------<<< /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.c:196:5: warning: return makes pointer from integer without a cast make[3]: *** [/usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.o] Error 1 make[2]: *** [_module_/usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default] Error 2 make[1]: *** [sub-make] Error 2 make: *** [all] Error 2 make: Leaving directory `/usr/src/linux-2.6.34.7-0.3-obj/x86_64/default' error: Bad exit status from /var/tmp/rpm-tmp.uPDk5u (%build) By the way, I'm running 2.6.34.7-0.2-desktop. Is this going to be a problem? You mentioned 2.6.33. -- Explain again the part about rm -rf / -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 9/23/2010 1:55 AM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

On 23/09/10 00:26, jsa wrote:

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On 09/22/2010 02:08 PM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

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On 22/09/10 18:34, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 9/22/2010 10:29 AM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

...

Yeah, the RPMs in the ati driver repository are broken, and the ati driver installer you download directly from the website is a mess. If it helps you, I posted a howto build the RPMs using the OBS instead Its a bit more bandwidth intensive than compiling it yourself, but it results in a cleaner package - the same quality as the ati repository but up-to-date and working. I did this for the recent 10.9 (8.771) driver release and have been enjoying life since. http://masterpatricko.blogspot.com/2010/09/building-ati-fglrx-rpms-for-opens...

This looks very interesting.

Will this work for a Mobility Radeon X1400 chipset with the 10.9 driver?

I travel with my laptop a lot, and I find that my Android phone is actually faster with Google Earth then the Core 2 Duo using mesa.

The instructions wont work exactly as I posted them - you need Catalyst 9.3 (8.593) instead, but this is also available from the OBS. Follow the instructions I gave, but substitute "ati-fglrxG01" instead of G02 in the checkout stage, and don't change the source versions - leave them at 8.593. If you get stuck let me know. The package includes patches to build against kernel-2.6.33.

Regards, Tejas

I seem to remember this happening back in prior releases as well.

No clue what to do about this error:

CC [M] /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.o /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.c: In function 'KCL_IOCTL_AllocUserSpace32': /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.c:196:5: error: implicit declaration of function 'compat_alloc_user_space' <--------<<< /usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.c:196:5: warning: return makes pointer from integer without a cast make[3]: *** [/usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default/kcl_ioctl.o] Error 1 make[2]: *** [_module_/usr/src/packages/BUILD/ati-fglrxG01-8.593/obj/default] Error 2 make[1]: *** [sub-make] Error 2 make: *** [all] Error 2 make: Leaving directory `/usr/src/linux-2.6.34.7-0.3-obj/x86_64/default' error: Bad exit status from /var/tmp/rpm-tmp.uPDk5u (%build)

By the way, I'm running 2.6.34.7-0.2-desktop. Is this going to be a problem? You mentioned 2.6.33.

Yeah, that's the problem - since it's "legacy", ATI haven't updated the driver in ages, and openSUSE's Stefan has only patched it up to 2.6.33. Looks like there were some more source-incompatible changes in 2.6.34 that we'll have to patch around. I'll take a look when I get a chance.

Regards, Tejas

Seems someone already ran into this: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/1277377 It looks like another backward compatibility bridge got burned. -- _____________________________________ At one time I had a Real Sig. Its been downsized. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen said the following on 09/22/2010 12:41 PM:

On 9/22/2010 4:25 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

The raedon driver does work for many of us, myself included, so this has to be one of those "devil in the details" of your configuration, and unless they are sorted out the enhancements that Will Stephenson talks of will not be available to you.

It sort of works.

I disagree; for me and presario laptop it works just fine.

But its dog slow.

Compared to what? A dedicated, tuned MS-Windows gaming machine? As a screen mechanism it is 'instantaneous' to the eye on all the compiz & 'dancing babies' things I have set up.

Google earth is barely usable.

I disagree. Its quite snappy. Not just the 'photos' put the zoom and pan.

Gaming is out.

No doubt that will depend on the game, and I'm not into a lot of the highly animated games, but the response I get from the movies clips and from google earth make me wonder ...

And the ATI distributed driver packages no longer install.

I can't comment on that, I gave up with those awkward things long ago. There seemed to be little benefit for the hassle involved.

The lower numbered Mobility Radeon chipsets are pretty much dependent on Mesa, and its pathetic.

Since I don't run Mesa and since I don't know what you mean by 'lower numbered', my only observation is that I do run the 'radeon' driver and this is an older chip-set so may well be 'lower numbered'. If that all adds up, the once again I disagree with you, not based on theory but rather that "it works for me". Perhaps we need some metrics. I'm not sure glxgears is useful: I just ran it and got figures from 325 to 555. Too much variability; but then this laptop is running lots of other stuff - cron, samba, mail, akonadi, mysql, a couple of web browsers ... -- IOException: Jovian moons misaligned. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rodney Baker wrote:

I've also had it occur where a window has opened with the title bar off the top of the screen and have therefore been unable to drag it to another location,

try holding down Alt then left click on any spot in the window (with the title bar off the top) and drag it down until the title bar is not off the top.. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 09:09:21AM +0930, Rodney Baker wrote:

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:51:32 Oliver Kullmann wrote:

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[...] 2. How to find out efficiently on which virtual desktop you are on? It seems that the virtual-desktop-button should show some blackness, but either if the virtual desktop is empty or has a bit more windows on it, that this becomes invisible. A solution could be to disable the useless attempt of showing windows in the buttons, but I couldn't find yet how to achieve that. [...]

Did you notice that you can drag windows between virtual desktops by dragging them in the pager? I've also had it occur where a window has opened with the title bar off the top of the screen and have therefore been unable to drag it to another location, but by dragging that window in the pager, it can be repositioned. Personally, I wouldn't call that "useless". ;-)

Thanks for mentioning this. No, I didn't notice that. Admittedly, this only adds to me feeling unwell with the desktop. I just counted the windows here on my workplace machine (Suse 10.0), and I have 5.5 windows currently per virtual desktop. And this is likely a low number, since several of the virtual desktops are empty due to reorganisation. I guess at home I have 10 windows open per virtual desktop (using the maximal number 20 of them). I can't imagine that such possibilities of dragging windows around in the pager will ever be useful for me (sure, who knows), while it might cause windows suddenly to "disappear". Especially given that the touchpad of my new laptop seems to be hyper-sensitive! A minimum distance of 10cm seems to be required to make sure that not suddenly "things" happen. I looked for possibilities to disable this, but this does not seem possible (the only two places relevant here seem to be "Pager Settings" and "Multiple Desktops --- System Settings"). My general experience with KDE 4.x is of a big instability, accidentally things happen (which you don't want to happen), and you have no clue why or how to reverse that. So I would like to disable as much as possible such effects. But there don't seem to be much possibilities for disabling anymore (disabling the desktop effects is likely only related to purely visual effects, but I don't know, don't dare to try them out (god knows what horrors await me there ;))). Sorry for being negative on this thing, but thanks nevertheless! Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 07:30:16PM +0200, C wrote:

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 17:34, Oliver Kullmann wrote:

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Especially given that the touchpad of my new laptop seems to be hyper-sensitive! A minimum distance of 10cm seems to be required to make sure that not suddenly "things" happen.

Both KDE4 and Gnome provide quite useful touchpad config utils. The KDE4 one at least allows you to do things like set it so the touchpad is switched off while you're typing, and turn back on a second or two (adjustable) after you stop typing. It's a nice compromise with those hyper sensitive touchpads.

Interesting; I'm now trying it, but actually only 0.6s delay (although I'm using for example XEmacs, I'm using also quite often the mouse); let's see how that feels. Thanks! Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 9/21/2010 8:34 AM, Oliver Kullmann wrote:

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I guess at home I have 10 windows open per virtual desktop (using the maximal number 20 of them). I can't imagine that such possibilities of dragging windows around in the pager will ever be useful for me (sure, who knows), while it might cause windows suddenly to "disappear".

I can't imagine how such a workspace could possibly be useful.

How can you remember what is on 20 different desktops each of which might have 10 applications, for 200 total applications running at the same time?

You must spend more time launching FINDING stuff than it would take to relaunch it.

Oh, hey, I'm not very different. I run with 12 virtual desktops, each of which has it's own set of applications running in it. One for casual web browsing, one for reading email, one for general software development, .... When I want to check my email, I switch to the appropriate desktop. OTOH, I also tend to like machines with a lot of RAM to feed my lunacy. -Nick -- <<< The answer is out there, Neo. >>> /`-_ Nick LeRoy { }/ http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~nleroy http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~nleroy \ / leroy.nick@gmail.com The University of Wisconsin |_*_| 920-568-0151 Department of Computer Sciences -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:52:40AM -0700, John Andersen wrote:

On 9/21/2010 8:34 AM, Oliver Kullmann wrote:

...

I guess at home I have 10 windows open per virtual desktop (using the maximal number 20 of them). I can't imagine that such possibilities of dragging windows around in the pager will ever be useful for me (sure, who knows), while it might cause windows suddenly to "disappear".

I can't imagine how such a workspace could possibly be useful.

How can you remember what is on 20 different desktops each of which might have 10 applications, for 200 total applications running at the same time?

As explained in my other e-mail, the point is ("exactly") that I don't have to remember anything, since I will be *reminded* by the "physical" structure of the virtual desktops.

You must spend more time launching FINDING stuff than it would take to relaunch it.

The open applications are files, directories, documents (pdf, ps, dvi, html), notes, terminals (I'm running experiments, and this can make for a large number of konsoles open). For example, I might think (that is, I have to :-(), alright, need to spend some time now on PhD admission (my administration task in the department). It is semi-badly organised by the university via web pages, and currently it is most convenient to have one window open for each of the applications (containing web forms, where I enter information as it comes). I try to keep them in order, and so if I now want to process something, then I go to the taskbar, maximise the first konqueror-window, and work on that thing; once finished, the window is closed.

Hey, don't get me wrong, huge thanks for testing the limits of the desktop system, and if the only complaint is that its tricky to move things around, that would suggest KDE4 is a huge success in stability.

I have Suse 9.2 (with whatever KDE version came with out) now running on my laptop for, say, 5 years, and I was very satisfied with it. Now the laptop gets old (actually, can only run very slowly, also after having cleaned the fan etc; it's rather funny), and I need something new. Sure, wireless-stuff and such things have improved, but w.r.t. my core business I can't see progress yet. With KDE 3.x I always had the feeling that roughly they are moving in "my" direction, but that got completely lost with 4.x, apparently a complete change of direction (I see it in our Linux lab, where I run some courses, and where they run through various Suse-versions). My theory is that the virtual desktops are the key point of true desktop development: with KDE 4.x somehow the windows-world got dominant, where the ideal is to have one big window surrounded by small gadgets (the daily noise, all the chatter etc., which I have just heard about, but never use). It's a kind of "false parallelism", there is the dictator (your "bad job", the external control), and there are the escapes (consumerism, that is, chatting, videos, ...). While "true parallelism" enables really different worlds on your computer, click, and new universes open (kind of). How many hours is everybody spending with the desktop. So I feel rather frustrated with what I regard as wrong developments, where I actually think that it wouldn't be so complicated to do what I have in mind. Alas, I'm really spending day and night to be able to do my research, and don't have time to invest in desktop development. I tried to start student projects, but it's too hard (no documentation out there on KDE; even students rather willing and skilled gave up on such topics). So well, got a bit longer, since, as you can see, I actually think that there are relevant issues here. Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sorry, I meant "are inserted into the taskbar of the last *virtual desktop*". That is, logging out and logging in again, it happened two times now that in the last virtual desktop, in its "taskbar" (the collection of buttons for open windows) I found "all" windows of all other virtual desktop been collected ("all" I couldn't check, and so I wrote below "Dolphin windows"). So a clear bug. On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 01:28:15PM +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

On Monday 20 September 2010 20:21:32 Oliver Kullmann wrote:

...

1. From "time to time" it happens that after a restart all Dolphin-windows are inserted into the taskbar of the last window. I can't understand this statement. Windows don't have taskbars. Do you mean

1) 'from time to time all Dolphin windows are inserted [grouped] in the taskbar _entry_ of the last Dolphin window?'

or do you mean

2) 'from time to time all Dolphin windows are inserted in the _titlebar_ of the last window'

1) sounds like the taskbar entries filled the space available to them, so the taskbar grouped the entries from the same app - middle click to expand

2) sounds like you would be using tabbed window-management (the Grouping entry on the window (alt-f3) menu, but I need more details to understand the problem. Please give steps to reproduce with a new user.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen every time. The next time I will try to make a bug report.

...

2. How to find out efficiently on which virtual desktop you are on? It seems that the virtual-desktop-button should show some blackness, but either if the virtual desktop is empty or has a bit more windows on it, that this becomes invisible. A solution could be to disable the useless attempt of showing windows in the buttons, but I couldn't find yet how to achieve that.

The look of the pager depends on the workspace theme. In the Air [openSUSE] default theme, the pager widget in the panel highlights the active virtual desktop with a brighter, larger specular highlight. The 'geek' desktop theme, downloadable from kde-look.org with 'Get New Themes', has a no gradients, 1 px black outline look and a shading effect only on the active desktop in the pager.

Thanks, the geek-theme works much better! Still, to figure out on which desktop you are is very hard. However, otherwise it looks much better (had "Air" before). Especially the problem that much information (certain pop-ups, the calender, certain menus) where nearly unreadable, due to black background and grey font, is solved now!

Another thing you can do is enable 'Desktop Switch On-Screen Display' in the virtual desktops->switching module to see the desktop number on switch.

Thanks for that, this also helps (especially now with the Geek-setting I can actually see it (couldn't before)). It is also helpful to remember from where you came. Thanks again. Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:48:56AM -0500, sc wrote:

On Tuesday 21 September 2010 10:54:18 Oliver Kullmann wrote:

...

Thanks, the geek-theme works much better! Still, to figure out on which desktop you are is very hard. However, otherwise it

not sure why this is a problem for you -- just put a different image as background for each desktop and you'll be able to tell at a glance

Sure, they all have different images. But with 20 different images (and finally, image is image) it's not so easy to precisely remember in all situations. Additionally one has to free the desktop, which doesn't seem possible (with one click!) given that you don't know on which desktop you are! (The old "free the desktop button" seems not longer available, and so you have to click on the *current* desktop button.) The easiest possibility yet seems to click on some virtual-desktop-button, and then that graphic shows the path from where you came (for a second), one needs to remember that, and then going back. But that's rather cumbersome. Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 01:27:26PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

Oliver Kullmann said the following on 09/21/2010 01:07 PM:

...

But that's rather cumbersome.

Maybe its me, but a work-flow involving that many virtual screens and that many windows seems cumbersome and confusing. I don't know how you keeps that much context information in your head - its beyond my abilities.

It's quite the contrary: exactly in order that I don't have to keep things in my head, I make them external. My understanding of the "desktop" is that of a "house" (thus I think "desktop" is quite misleading), with many rooms, for each special activity/project a dedicated room with special equipment for that purpose, which *stays*. So I just need to remember the activity/project, go to the "room", and there I find everything which *reminds* me of all the details.

I've got a simple life:

one desktop for messages - normally just email one desktop for web browsers one desktop for file browsers and things that start from files one desktop or terminals

Two desktops for 'scratch' - which means 'other applications'

So what's your disciple and organization?

Unfortunately there are only 20 virtual desktops, so I can't really do what I would like to do. But so well, currently at my workplace I have "System" for general system-tasks, 3 virtual desktops related to administrational tasks (I work at a University), two virtual desktops regarding writing papers, reports, books, one vt for access to the literature, one for my open-source project, one for another research project, one for a conference I organised, one for letters I'm writing, one for documentation, one for the Internet, one for my web pages, one for the calendar and such things, one for e-mail. Hah, I just realised that these are only 16. Now I remember that at some crash I "lost" some, and didn't get them back :-(. At home, where I do the real work (my research), there are really 20, and they are more related to various research projects. Developing the virtual desktop system would in my opinion by extremely useful, and should actually be rather simple. One needed for example some kind of history (where have I been?). And the creation of dynamic virtual desktops (a kind of tree-structure, for temporary projects). For example with my open-source project, I have to open five files related to some C++ issue, at this time I realise that there is some underlying mathematical problem, for which I open, say, 3 other files (motivated, but at a different level), furthermore for the plans/milestones I have to open 7 more files; yet this all has to live in one virtual desktop (but that's at least something!), and if dynamically more could be created, which would have some specific relation to the existing ones, then it would be much easier to interrupt the work (other projects, administrational work, ...), and come back, and since I find the open files within a structure(!), it would be much easier to be reminded of what still needs to be done. Realistically I have around 10 large research projects, and, say, 100 smaller ones. The big task is to manage that --- a real "desktop environment" ("housetop environment") would help enormously. Oliver -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 9/22/2010 12:23 AM, Will Stephenson wrote:

This kind of organized working is what the ongoing Activities work in KDE aims to support. It's an elaboration of the classification possible using virtual desktops by putting windows on them. Activities includes the desktop furniture in the context - allowing, for example, a different folder to provide the desktop icons on each activity, or a different set of app menus on the panel. They break the conventional limitations of virtual desktops, by allowing windows to be members of >1 Activity.

In the near future Activity hints will be available to applications so they can adapt to the context they are running in, eg "KMail helps me focus by only showing the mail folders relevant to the Acme project while I am using the Acme activity" or "Kopete sets my work IM account Away when I switch to my Social activity".

The challenge is to make this available so that it is comprehensible and useful to those without a scientist's ingrained love of order - we've already all had the "I clicked a button and all my programs went away" response to virtual desktops from new users.

I hope that's interesting

Will

I would say the Challenge is more to get activities to behave by themselves and possibly develop some useful widgets (its largely a wasteland of mostly useless toys) before giving activities control over normal applications. -- _____________________________________ At one time I had a Real Sig. Its been downsized. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 21 September 2010 19:07:12 Oliver Kullmann wrote:

(The old "free the desktop button" seems not longer available, and so you have to click on the current desktop button.)

That's incorrect - the Show Desktop button can be added to the panel or desktop with the Add Widgets... item in the panel toolbox. -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org