My actual network is conected through a router that is connected to a cable modem and providing internet access to three laptops. What I am going to do is put one of those laptops outside the router so it can be set as a webserver and be accessed by outsiders. In that case that pc will be in the middle of the router and de ISP. I have a 10mbp NIC and a 10/100mbp. Do I really need to get another 10/100 to put in that computer or I can just put the 10/100 in the NIC connected to the ISP and the 10mbp going to the router? Does that really affect the service performance on the computers connected to the router? Thnx!! ===== Ricardo A. Rodriguez __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com
¡hola ricardo! it depends on the bandwith and on your setup .... i guess you dont have more than 10mbit of bandwidth going to the net ..... and i also guess that your hub is intelligent enough to not throttle-down the whole network to 10mbit when on 10mbit device is connected to it. i would suggest the following setup : (bad ascii art following) isp line <---> webserver/firewall <---> hub the nic connected to the isp can be a 10mbit card, and for safety you can use the 100mbit on the hub side. this way you can be sure that nothing will go wrong with your internal network performance. i have seen hubs that either switch all ports to 10mbit or give an enormous amount of collisions when a 10mbit device is connected while the rest is 100mbit ...... but most modern hubs should be capable of handling that in a correct way. greets, chris Am Donnerstag, 30. August 2001 04:15 schrieb Ricardo Rodriguez:
My actual network is conected through a router that is connected to a cable modem and providing internet access to three laptops.
What I am going to do is put one of those laptops outside the router so it can be set as a webserver and be accessed by outsiders. In that case that pc will be in the middle of the router and de ISP.
I have a 10mbp NIC and a 10/100mbp. Do I really need to get another 10/100 to put in that computer or I can just put the 10/100 in the NIC connected to the ISP and the 10mbp going to the router?
Does that really affect the service performance on the computers connected to the router?
Thnx!!
===== Ricardo A. Rodriguez
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com
-- visit me at http://mamalala.de
Well, Rick, I'm no network expert, but I have noticed a difference between what people tell me, what the box says, and real life. I use the LNE100TX and 3Com 3C905B/C cards only. Now, supposedly, when I have a 10Mbps card going to my hub, it's supposed to slow the whole network down to 10Mbps. However, I seem to have an oddball (advanced or something) hub where only the 10Mbps line would run at 10Mbps. (Everyone: No, this is not a switch. This is not a switch. This is not a switch.) Anyway, plugging in a 10Mbps card into a primarily 100Mbps hub is /supposedly/ going to slow everything down. However (from the verbiage on the side of my new switches (ahem)), it doesn't make any difference because the 100Mbps is shared among the machines that are talking on "most" hubs. Hubs also "are only capable of half duplex" meaning 50Mbps up and 50Mbps down, shared among machines. Now, this I can attest to because I ran into it building my own linux distro (linuxfromscratch.org, not recommended to the impatient or anyone with a sex life), my NIC belched out that the network was running half duplex. Supposedly, on a switch, all of these problems are solved. You run at full duplex (100Mbps up + 100Mbps down = 200Mbps and yes I've noticed a speed difference since I installed them). So, what you're asking is going to get you a different answer depending on who you talk to. Network people will tell you that the 10Mbps card will slow down the network without a switch. I can't abide this because I haven't noticed it with three brands of hubs, but it's what's /supposed/ to happen. However, if you're going to get anything, I'd personally suggest a switch. It does help things move along better. D-Link 5 port are what I have, and I have 3 daisy-chained. They were about $60 each. They should make your nics work at their own proper speeds and even speed them up a bit. And (aestethic note) I like that they plug in the ether in back and have lights on the front... never have figured out why non-rack-mount hubs and such always want the plugs in front. Dave On Wednesday 29 August 2001 22:15, Ricardo Rodriguez wrote:
My actual network is conected through a router that is connected to a cable modem and providing internet access to three laptops.
What I am going to do is put one of those laptops outside the router so it can be set as a webserver and be accessed by outsiders. In that case that pc will be in the middle of the router and de ISP.
I have a 10mbp NIC and a 10/100mbp. Do I really need to get another 10/100 to put in that computer or I can just put the 10/100 in the NIC connected to the ISP and the 10mbp going to the router?
Does that really affect the service performance on the computers connected to the router?
Thnx!!
===== Ricardo A. Rodriguez
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:18:53 -0400 David Grove <pete@petes-place.com> wrote:
Well, Rick, I'm no network expert, but I have noticed a difference between what people tell me, what the box says, and real life.
I use the LNE100TX and 3Com 3C905B/C cards only. Now, supposedly, when I have a 10Mbps card going to my hub, it's supposed to slow the whole network down to 10Mbps. However, I seem to have an oddball (advanced or something) hub where only the 10Mbps line would run at 10Mbps. (Everyone: No, this is not a switch. This is not a switch. This is not a switch.) Anyway, plugging in a 10Mbps card into a primarily 100Mbps hub is /supposedly/ going to slow everything down.
However (from the verbiage on the side of my new switches (ahem)), it doesn't make any difference because the 100Mbps is shared among the machines
You will link at 100 if your card is 100, but the traffic is still only 10. Don't confuse what you bind at and the actual data transfer speed. It is not physically possible to have a single network segment (what a hub gives) running at two speeds. It's not a matter of "well, my hub is different". No, it's not. that are
talking on "most" hubs. Hubs also "are only capable of half duplex" meaning 50Mbps up and 50Mbps down, shared among machines. Now, this I can attest to because I ran into it building my own linux distro (linuxfromscratch.org, not recommended to the impatient or anyone with a sex life), my NIC belched out that the network was running half duplex.
This is not corrent either. Switches or hubs or NICs can run at either full or half duplex, depending on their construction. Lots of 10 & 100 full duplex hubs out there.
Þann fimmtudagur 30 ágúst 2001 17:30 skrifaðir þú:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:18:53 -0400
[SNIP]
You will link at 100 if your card is 100, but the traffic is still only 10. Don't confuse what you bind at and the actual data transfer speed. It is not physically possible to have a single network segment (what a hub gives) running at two speeds. It's not a matter of "well, my hub is different". No, it's not.
Uhm, I beg to differ :-) There are things called "swithcing hubs" which are in fact two hubs ( one 10Mbit and one 100Mbit ) with a two-port switch built in to bridge the 10/100 gap. That way, you get "pure" 100<-->100 where possible, "pure" 10<->10, and a 10<->100 switched bridge. They cost about the same as a true switch tho, so I'd rather recommend switches. ( beware tho that some companies sell these things as "personal switches" - which they are not. ) [SNIP] -tosi
Thank you. I figured someone would want to be hostile. I think the hub I was using calls itself an "auto-switching" hub, but I've been told that's "something different entirely". I just know that it works this way. Anyway, thanks. On Thursday 30 August 2001 13:58, Tor Sigurdsson wrote:
Þann fimmtudagur 30 ágúst 2001 17:30 skrifaðir þú:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:18:53 -0400
[SNIP]
You will link at 100 if your card is 100, but the traffic is still only 10. Don't confuse what you bind at and the actual data transfer speed. It is not physically possible to have a single network segment (what a hub gives) running at two speeds. It's not a matter of "well, my hub is different". No, it's not.
Uhm, I beg to differ :-)
There are things called "swithcing hubs" which are in fact two hubs ( one 10Mbit and one 100Mbit ) with a two-port switch built in to bridge the 10/100 gap. That way, you get "pure" 100<-->100 where possible, "pure" 10<->10, and a 10<->100 switched bridge. They cost about the same as a true switch tho, so I'd rather recommend switches. ( beware tho that some companies sell these things as "personal switches" - which they are not. )
[SNIP]
-tosi
Hi Tor, Most 10/100 hubs these days are, in effect, two hubs and a 2-port switch. Ports 'auto switch' to either the 10Mbps segment or the 100Mbps segment. Inter-segment traffic is decided by MAC address 'learning' So... if two 100Mbps devices are communicating - they are on the same segment, and will communicate at 100Mbps. Similarly for two 10Mbps devices. The whole only drops to 10Mbps with cross-segment 10-100 traffic. I hope that makes sense. And BTW - full duplex is 100Mbps TX AND 100Mbps RX simultaneously. Tony At 15:02 30/08/2001 -0400, David Grove wrote:
Thank you.
I figured someone would want to be hostile. I think the hub I was using calls itself an "auto-switching" hub, but I've been told that's "something different entirely". I just know that it works this way.
Anyway, thanks.
On Thursday 30 August 2001 13:58, Tor Sigurdsson wrote:
Þann fimmtudagur 30 ágúst 2001 17:30 skrifaðir þú:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:18:53 -0400
[SNIP]
You will link at 100 if your card is 100, but the traffic is
still only
10. Don't confuse what you bind at and the actual data transfer speed. It is not physically possible to have a single network segment (what a hub gives) running at two speeds. It's not a matter of "well, my hub is different". No, it's not.
Uhm, I beg to differ :-)
There are things called "swithcing hubs" which are in fact two hubs ( one 10Mbit and one 100Mbit ) with a two-port switch built in to bridge the 10/100 gap. That way, you get "pure" 100<-->100 where possible, "pure" 10<->10, and a 10<->100 switched bridge. They cost about the same as a true switch tho, so I'd rather recommend switches. ( beware tho that some companies sell these things as "personal switches" - which they are not. )
[SNIP]
-tosi
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On Thursday 30 August 2001 16:57, Tony White wrote:
Hi Tor,
Most 10/100 hubs these days are, in effect, two hubs and a 2-port switch. Ports 'auto switch' to either the 10Mbps segment or the 100Mbps segment. Inter-segment traffic is decided by MAC address 'learning' So... if two 100Mbps devices are communicating - they are on the same segment, and will communicate at 100Mbps. Similarly for two 10Mbps devices. The whole only drops to 10Mbps with cross-segment 10-100 traffic.
At least somebody believes me for a change.
I hope that makes sense.
And BTW - full duplex is 100Mbps TX AND 100Mbps RX simultaneously.
Like I can learn much from the side of a D-Link box. ;-) Dave
yes but what if my 10mbp is providing connection to the router that is the one providing to my internal network. Does that really reflect in the performance of my internal network internet access?? IPS --- 100<LinuxBox>10 --- ROUTER (Linksys) --- NetW so, my ISP is sending me something at 100 that is going trough my linux box and it decrease to 10, so are all my computers after the router accessing at 10? That may be a bad assumption or a stupid question for must of you but all this is new for me..... Thnx. --- David Grove <pete@petes-place.com> wrote:
Hi Tor,
Most 10/100 hubs these days are, in effect, two hubs and a 2-port switch. Ports 'auto switch' to either the 10Mbps segment or the 100Mbps segment. Inter-segment traffic is decided by MAC address 'learning' So... if two 100Mbps devices are communicating -
On Thursday 30 August 2001 16:57, Tony White wrote: they are on the same
segment, and will communicate at 100Mbps. Similarly for two 10Mbps devices. The whole only drops to 10Mbps with cross-segment 10-100 traffic.
At least somebody believes me for a change.
I hope that makes sense.
And BTW - full duplex is 100Mbps TX AND 100Mbps RX simultaneously.
Like I can learn much from the side of a D-Link box. ;-)
Dave
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===== Ricardo A. Rodriguez __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com
I think I'm clear on what you're asking. Answer: no. As long as your hub (whether it 'switches' or not) isn't plugged into your 10Mbps NIC, it's not going to slow you down. If you have a NIC plugged straight into your internet connection (router), and a second NIC (100Mbps) hooked to the hub, you're fine. Look at it as though the hub that slows things down, not the NIC or the computers. That's not precise, but it's a good description. Dave On Thursday 30 August 2001 18:07, Ricardo Rodriguez wrote:
yes but what if my 10mbp is providing connection to the router that is the one providing to my internal network. Does that really reflect in the performance of my internal network internet access??
IPS --- 100<LinuxBox>10 --- ROUTER (Linksys) --- NetW
so, my ISP is sending me something at 100 that is going trough my linux box and it decrease to 10, so are all my computers after the router accessing at 10?
That may be a bad assumption or a stupid question for must of you but all this is new for me.....
Thnx.
--- David Grove <pete@petes-place.com> wrote:
On Thursday 30 August 2001 16:57, Tony White wrote:
Hi Tor,
Most 10/100 hubs these days are, in effect, two
hubs and a 2-port
switch. Ports 'auto switch' to either the 10Mbps
segment or the 100Mbps
segment. Inter-segment traffic is decided by MAC
address 'learning'
So... if two 100Mbps devices are communicating -
they are on the same
segment, and will communicate at 100Mbps.
Similarly for two 10Mbps
devices. The whole only drops to 10Mbps with
cross-segment 10-100 traffic.
At least somebody believes me for a change.
I hope that makes sense.
And BTW - full duplex is 100Mbps TX AND 100Mbps RX
simultaneously.
Like I can learn much from the side of a D-Link box. ;-)
Dave
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com
===== Ricardo A. Rodriguez
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com
On Thursday 30 August 2001 10:07 pm, Ricardo Rodriguez wrote:
yes but what if my 10mbp is providing connection to the router that is the one providing to my internal network. Does that really reflect in the performance of my internal network internet access??
IPS --- 100<LinuxBox>10 --- ROUTER (Linksys) --- NetW
so, my ISP is sending me something at 100 that is going trough my linux box and it decrease to 10, so are all my computers after the router accessing at 10?
That may be a bad assumption or a stupid question for must of you but all this is new for me.....
I've not been studying this thread too much but I doubt that you will need the 100Mbps NIC for Internet access. Most cable modems require a 10Mbps NIC; you are looking at a 512k connection? This is what I've set-up (albeit I still waiting for the cable modem): [cable modem]--10M--[smoothwall router]--100M--[dfe-904 hub]--100M My D-Link hub is switchable 10/100Mbps - I cannot mix cards; they either operate at 10 or 100Mbps. My main Linux box and the kids PC are connected to the hub. I hope this clarifies things for you. M
Thank you.
I figured someone would want to be hostile. I think the hub I was using calls itself an "auto-switching" hub, but I've been told that's "something different entirely". I just know that it works this way.
Anyway, thanks.
On Thursday 30 August 2001 13:58, Tor Sigurdsson wrote:
Þann fimmtudagur 30 ágúst 2001 17:30 skrifaðir þú:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:18:53 -0400
[SNIP]
You will link at 100 if your card is 100, but the traffic is still only 10. Don't confuse what you bind at and the actual data transfer speed. It is not physically possible to have a single network segment (what a hub gives) running at two speeds. It's not a matter of "well, my hub is different". No, it's not.
Uhm, I beg to differ :-)
There are things called "swithcing hubs" which are in fact two hubs ( one 10Mbit and one 100Mbit ) with a two-port switch built in to bridge the 10/100 gap. That way, you get "pure" 100<-->100 where possible, "pure" 10<->10, and a 10<->100 switched bridge. They cost about the same as a
It's not a matter of being hostile, only being accurate. There is no such thing as a switching hub; this stuff is very well defined. As a person stated, what you might have is two hubs in the same box with a segment to link the two. Small differnece, but a difference none-the-less. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:02:05 -0400 David Grove <pete@petes-place.com> wrote: true
switch tho, so I'd rather recommend switches. ( beware tho that some companies sell these things as "personal switches" - which they are not. )
[SNIP]
-tosi
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On August 31, 2001 10:38 am, Timothy Reaves wrote:
It's not a matter of being hostile, only being accurate.
There is no such thing as a switching hub; this stuff is very well defined. As a person stated, what you might have is two hubs in the same box with a segment to link the two.
Small differnece, but a difference none-the-less.
Sometimes, 'switching hub' means an unmanaged desktop switch. - -- James Oakley Engineering - SolutionInc Ltd. joakley@solutioninc.com http://www.solutioninc.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7j5mg+FOexA3koIgRAtfeAJwMQLyj9s5CkxujCMBd0Cubgr2IpwCglZwr nlUxBvsnfnP1QaTQv+9GJWo= =eC4J -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Friday 31 August 2001 2:05 pm, James Oakley wrote:
On August 31, 2001 10:38 am, Timothy Reaves wrote:
It's not a matter of being hostile, only being accurate.
There is no such thing as a switching hub; this stuff is very well defined. As a person stated, what you might have is two hubs in the same box with a segment to link the two.
Small differnece, but a difference none-the-less.
Sometimes, 'switching hub' means an unmanaged desktop switch.
It's bad terminology. A hub broadcasts traffic along its backplane. A switch doesn't. If a hub does something more than just broadcasting (e.g. dual-speed, or SNMP compliance, or similar), then you can call it a 'smart hub', but you *shouldn't* call it a 'switching hub'. I worked as a tech support for 3Com for 4 years, and came across a classic example of this... The bog-standard 10Mbps 3Com hub was called the FMS (flexible media stack) II, until it got renamed the Superstack II Hub 10 in 1996. In autumn 1996, 3Com used some of the old Chipcom technology to produce a smart hub; they thought it would replace the Hub 10. This thing had 4 backplanes, all at 10 Mbps; and you could move ports from one backplane to another, so you could have, say, 20 people on one backplane (sharing 1 10 Mbps segment!) and 2 or 3 'power users' on another segment. It was a nice little toy, even if it was technically obsolete by the time they released it (and *way* overpriced). But they had the *idiocy* to call it the Superstack II Port Switch Hub. So people, looking to buy a switch, saw 'switch' in the title; and this thing was cheaper than switches were then (since it was a hub, to all intents and purposes). So people bought them, then discovered that they had just bought rather expensive hubs instead of switches. At which point they usually returned them, along with some really nasty letters. (The phone calls were fun, too. For those of us working on the helldesk.) People who wanted hubs generally stuck with the Hub 10, since everyone knew it. The Port Switch Hub sold almost *no* units, since it fell between two stools, and was confusingly named. So, to try and sell them off, they renamed them; the Port Switch Hub became the PS Hub 40 (since it had 4 x 10Mbps backplanes), and had the price slashed (to the point where it was cheaper than the Hub 10). It never really sold well; and it certainly didn't replace the Hub 10 (as it was supposed to in 1997). 3Com had to continue selling both of them; it couldn't afford to junk the PS Hub, and people still wanted the Hub 10. If you go to 3Com's web site, and look up 'managed hubs' in the product section, you will find both of them, both still available, and left high and dry by the vast numbers of cheap switches you can get nowadays. That's a classic example of why bad terminology (when talking about switches and hubs) can be a really stupid thing to do; even if you're a big company. Gideon.
On Friday 31 August 2001 1:38 pm, Timothy Reaves wrote:
It's not a matter of being hostile, only being accurate.
There is no such thing as a switching hub; this stuff is very well defined. As a person stated, what you might have is two hubs in the same box with a segment to link the two.
Small differnece, but a difference none-the-less.
Absolutely right. When the ethernet specs were devised, no-one envisaged that there would be a 100 Mbps or 1000Mbps need at some point in the future; as a result, the layer 2 (often known as the 'data link' layer) structure was a bit sloppy (in hindsight). When it came to defining the Fast Ethernet standard (IEEE 802.3u), the major difference was in the data-link; much of the CSMA/CD is very similar. However, the two are incompatible, and cannot exist on one segment. What 'dual speed hubs' (the 3Com name for them) have is two backplanes; one 10 Mbps and one 100 Mbps; the ports are connected to both, and the backplanes are linked by a dumb 10/100 bridge (which will convert Ethernet to Fast Ethernet and vice versa). As with all hubs, effective port bandwidth on the segment is equal to the speed of the backplane (10 or 100 Mbps) divided by the number of ports in use on the backplane. Switches are different things altogether; they keep a log of MAC addresses and the corresponding ports they are associated with; and when they receive traffic for that port, they *only* repeat to that port. Each port on an early switch effectively acted as a bridge; it would forward stuff to the switch CPU which would decide where the traffic went. Nowadays, it's much more distributed; each switch port has some intelligence itself, so it doesn't need to bug the CPU as much; and each port is capable of autonegotiating Ethernet or Fast Ethernet. Just my £0.02. Gideon.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On August 30, 2001 04:02 pm, David Grove wrote:
Thank you.
I figured someone would want to be hostile. I think the hub I was using calls itself an "auto-switching" hub, but I've been told that's "something different entirely". I just know that it works this way.
Do yourself a favour and play with bing. The man page says not to use your own IP in the measurements, but most of the time, the numbers I get out of it are realistic. I have measured between 20 and 60 Mb over 100 Mb networks, depending on the NICs used. Intel EEPros are super-fast... I measured 10 Mb on 3Com's 10Mb VDSL, 900 Kb on some HPNA gear over here, etc. It works well. I can't wait to get some Gb ethernet to play with... As far as the 100Mb being desirable, the card that connects to my cable modem is a 10Mb, but the rest of my network is 100Mb. I do a lot of XSessions, network backups, etc. on my internal side. The 100Mb is definitely worth it. - -- James Oakley Engineering - SolutionInc Ltd. joakley@solutioninc.com http://www.solutioninc.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7j5hb+FOexA3koIgRAslZAKCe+CfBIsfqI3nsWbnazGlHSdieJACfcT73 tk3dePB+ic0V4hMCUCSe6Co= =JY/h -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On August 31, 2001 01:59 pm, James Oakley wrote:
Do yourself a favour and play with bing. The man page says not to use your own IP in the measurements, but most of the time, the numbers I get out of it are realistic. I have measured between 20 and 60 Mb over 100 Mb
As far as the 100Mb being desirable, the card that connects to my cable modem is a 10Mb, but the rest of my network is 100Mb. I do a lot of XSessions, network backups, etc. on my internal side. The 100Mb is definitely worth it.
For me it seems the hold up is the other hardware on my system. The harddrive can only push so much so fast. Even so it can reach speeds much higher then 10MB. Nick
participants (10)
-
Christian Klippel -
David Grove -
Gideon Hallett -
James Oakley -
Martin Webster -
Nick Zentena -
Ricardo Rodriguez -
Timothy Reaves -
Tony White -
Tor Sigurdsson