I've bought the last 4 boxed sets that SuSE has released, and I'm thinking that this is getting starting to get expensive. While I'll still probably get my company to pony up for 9.3, I'm starting to think about getting a burned copy from one of the distro knock-off places. (Not many offer the real SuSE DVD, but I did find one.) The whole thing brings up something I've been stewing over for several months now. I recently installed Gentoo on my box, and I really, really like it. I like is that I have access to just about ANY software package in the open-source world, and it integrates into the system in the same manner as everything else on the system. I don't care about the supposed performance gains of strenuous optimizations. (I think this has been refuted well enough by people like Havoc Pennington.) However, I really, really hate the idea that it's going to take 3 days to recompile the whole system when some new version of libtool or gcc comes down the wire (which I've read on their planet is coming soon). And for old (think Celeron) "servers," this just gets unwieldy. It might be possible to use one machine to build everything at a base i586 level, and distribute the packages, but this sounds like a lot of extra work. I've also installed Ubuntu on a VMware machine. It's alright. It gets back to making most interesting open-source software available as a native package, but, under the covers, it's still Debian. And unstable Debian at that. I've had several app crashes just in the short time I tested it. And there's the confusion of where all of that Debian-based stuff is going in the future. Ug. What a mess. (If you know what I'm talking about, great; if not, this isn't the place.) I've said all of that to get to this: in my thinking, I'm back to favoring SuSE. I'm installing the CD version of 9.3 in a VMware machine as I type this, and I notice that there's no postgres server. According to Roger's notes, this is available on the DVD. It begs a couple questions: 1) When will the FTP version of 9.3 be available? 2) Will the FTP site have even more "stuff" than the DVD? I think there's an opportunity here for SuSE to take even more mind-share. I really think there's an opening for an "extras" repository for the enthusiast. Things like James' ULB and the PackMan packages are great, but sometimes it gets a little hairy keeping everything straight. Novell could open up a community-based repo for all the latest, greatest "stuff" that people work on, and make that available as another source in YaST. (Behind the scenes may need to exist a common CVS repository so that the people making the packages can use the same underlying libraries.) Anyway. I may be completely off-base here. I know there are bits and pieces of this already. I realize that the Ximian guys have some red carpet channels out there for mono and mono-based apps. Will these get updated for SuSE 9.3, and will they receive the "gold" versions of things like beagle between official releases of the distro? I certainly don't know. I'm just trying to highlight the only thing that I think other distro's have on SuSE: access to the majority of "stuff" in the FOSS world, and bleeding-edge packages, if desired, all of which are pre-packaged to "play nice" in native way of administering the system. Comments? dk
On 4/15/05, David Krider
I think there's an opportunity here for SuSE to take even more mind-share. I really think there's an opening for an "extras" repository for the enthusiast. Things like James' ULB and the PackMan packages are great, but sometimes it gets a little hairy keeping everything straight. Novell could open up a community-based repo for all the latest, greatest "stuff" that people work on, and make that available as another source in YaST. (Behind the scenes may need to exist a common CVS repository so that the people making the packages can use the same underlying libraries.)
Anyway. I may be completely off-base here. I know there are bits and pieces of this already. I realize that the Ximian guys have some red carpet channels out there for mono and mono-based apps. Will these get updated for SuSE 9.3, and will they receive the "gold" versions of things like beagle between official releases of the distro? I certainly don't know. I'm just trying to highlight the only thing that I think other distro's have on SuSE: access to the majority of "stuff" in the FOSS world, and bleeding-edge packages, if desired, all of which are pre-packaged to "play nice" in native way of administering the system.
Comments? dk
Why not try using apt for SuSE? In the repository there are a lot of "extra" stuff, including all multimedia packages from packman, current application versions (not patches to the shipped ones), etc. Here is a link to start: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/home.html Cheers Sunny -- Get Firefox http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=10745&t=85
On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 09:42 -0500, David Krider wrote: <snip>
Anyway. I may be completely off-base here. I know there are bits and pieces of this already. I realize that the Ximian guys have some red carpet channels out there for mono and mono-based apps. Will these get updated for SuSE 9.3, and will they receive the "gold" versions of things like beagle between official releases of the distro? I certainly don't know. I'm just trying to highlight the only thing that I think other distro's have on SuSE: access to the majority of "stuff" in the FOSS world, and bleeding-edge packages, if desired, all of which are pre-packaged to "play nice" in native way of administering the system.
Comments? dk
I have been using SuSE since Sept. 1998 and have found that the mindset of SuSE has always been stability not bleeding edge. This is why you will not readily find bleeding edge versions available through YaST by default. There are a number of "repositories" available that can be added to YaST for "bleeding edge/newer versions" so that you are not as likely to suffer from dependency hell. Personally I prefer stability as opposed to latest and greatest "bleeding edge". Many times on this list we have had requests from people seeking help (HELP/desperate in the subject line) because a newer untested version of latest-and-greatest.rpm has been installed and broke their system to the point of not being able to boot to fix the problem. I don't like telling someone to look elsewhere but I think Mandrake may be more to your liking as there seems to be access to most of the latest-and-greatest.rpm packages available. But remember when you deter away from the default install/updates that you always do so at your own risk and can break your system. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
On Friday 15 April 2005 08:52, David Krider wrote:
Sunny wrote:
Why not try using apt for SuSE? In the repository there are a lot of "extra" stuff, including all multimedia packages from packman, current application versions (not patches to the shipped ones), etc.
I had heard about this, but had, up till now, steered clear because of how much of a kludge it sounded like it was. Now that I've seen that page, I'm even more convinced. That's an enormous amount of info to absorb about the process. People frequently complain about RPM (ok, maybe it's just Debian people), but I've never had a whole lot of trouble with it. Apt is supposed to be great and all, but that page proves just how complicated it is.
Bottom line this for: are a lot of people really using this and NOT having problems? Or is this stuff just as tricky as it sounds? Anyone? If it's reasonable, I could definitely see using it. If it's hit-and-miss, well, I'll probably still at least try it... ;-)
Thanks, dk
I have used apt and its GUI synaptic for years. I couple of days ago I updated both my linux 9.2 boxes (about 6 or 7 hundred packages) using apt. It all went very well. I have had problems in the past but not many and all solved. Apt is worth the effort to learn. Jerome
Sunny wrote:
Why not try using apt for SuSE? In the repository there are a lot of "extra" stuff, including all multimedia packages from packman, current application versions (not patches to the shipped ones), etc.
I had heard about this, but had, up till now, steered clear because of how much of a kludge it sounded like it was. Now that I've seen that page, I'm even more convinced. That's an enormous amount of info to absorb about the process. People frequently complain about RPM (ok, maybe it's just Debian people), but I've never had a whole lot of trouble with it. Apt is supposed to be great and all, but that page proves just how complicated it is. Bottom line this for: are a lot of people really using this and NOT having problems? Or is this stuff just as tricky as it sounds? Anyone? If it's reasonable, I could definitely see using it. If it's hit-and-miss, well, I'll probably still at least try it... ;-) Thanks, dk
On 4/15/05, David Krider
Sunny wrote:
Why not try using apt for SuSE? In the repository there are a lot of "extra" stuff, including all multimedia packages from packman, current application versions (not patches to the shipped ones), etc.
I had heard about this, but had, up till now, steered clear because of how much of a kludge it sounded like it was. Now that I've seen that page, I'm even more convinced. That's an enormous amount of info to absorb about the process. People frequently complain about RPM (ok, maybe it's just Debian people), but I've never had a whole lot of trouble with it. Apt is supposed to be great and all, but that page proves just how complicated it is.
Bottom line this for: are a lot of people really using this and NOT having problems? Or is this stuff just as tricky as it sounds? Anyone? If it's reasonable, I could definitely see using it. If it's hit-and-miss, well, I'll probably still at least try it... ;-)
Thanks, dk
Apt is just a good way to help you install packages and getting updates/upgrades, and resolving dependencies. Just like YaST. Only the structure of the repository is different. Using the GUI Synaptic is just as easy as using YaST. It only sounds complicated :) But, as Ken told, "bleeding edge" is just that - bleeding :) I mean about the apps, not the apt itself. Apt is good and tested. Over the time, I had some bad experience with not well tested applications, etc., never to the point of no booting though, but it is easy to downgrade with Synaptic/apt, if some app causes problems. At least you can install apt and synaptic (4-5 packages), take a look at the repository, and decide if you want to use it. Sunny -- Get Firefox http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=10745&t=85
On 4/15/05, David Krider
Sunny wrote:
At least you can install apt and synaptic (4-5 packages), take a look at the repository, and decide if you want to use it.
Is it available for 9.3 yet?
:-) dk
Here are all the repositories available: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/ And ... yes, there is 9.3 :) -- Get Firefox http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=10745&t=85
Hello, El Viernes, 15 de Abril de 2005 16:42, David Krider escribió:
I'm installing the CD version of 9.3 in a VMware machine as I type this, and I notice that there's no postgres server. According to Roger's notes, this is available on the DVD. It begs a couple questions:
1) When will the FTP version of 9.3 be available? 2) Will the FTP site have even more "stuff" than the DVD?
You will find even newest postgres rpms for SuSE 9.3 here (the same place where apt take the packages if you select suse-projects component): ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/projects/postgresql/postgresql-8.0.2/9.3-i386 Guillermo -- Guillermo Ballester Valor gbv@oxixares.com Ogijares, Granada SPAIN Linux user #117181. See http://counter.li.org/ Public GPG KEY http://www.oxixares.com/~gbv/pubgpg.html
Susemail wrote:
I have used apt and its GUI synaptic for years. I couple of days ago I updated both my linux 9.2 boxes (about 6 or 7 hundred packages) using apt. It all went very well. I have had problems in the past but not many and all solved. Apt is worth the effort to learn.
I managed to get apt and apt-lib installed from the site, but I would *really* like to get synaptic working. I tried `apt-get install synaptic', but apparently I don't have a proper sources.list file. Is there a way to just get the rpm for this? That way I could browse my selected sources at my leisure. (Ubuntu had this on the "system" menu, and it was very cool.) Thanks, dk
On 4/15/05, David Krider
I managed to get apt and apt-lib installed from the site, but I would *really* like to get synaptic working. I tried `apt-get install synaptic', but apparently I don't have a proper sources.list file. Is there a way to just get the rpm for this? That way I could browse my selected sources at my leisure. (Ubuntu had this on the "system" menu, and it was very cool.)
Thanks, dk
Looks like the directory structure for 9.2 and 9.3 are pretty much the same. So you can get 9.2 sources.list, and modify in it only the path from 9.2 to 9.3. Then you have to make #apt-get update in order to reload the list of available rpms. And then you can install synaptic. You will have some problems down the road because of the package signatures, but it is explained how to deal with it on the page I send you. Sunny -- Get Firefox http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=10745&t=85
Op vrijdag 15 april 2005 21:18, schreef David Krider:
I have used apt and its GUI synaptic for years. I couple of days ago I updated both my linux 9.2 boxes (about 6 or 7 hundred packages) using apt. It all went very well. I have had problems in the past but not many and all solved. Apt is worth the effort to learn.
I managed to get apt and apt-lib installed from the site, but I would *really* like to get synaptic working. I tried `apt-get install synaptic', but apparently I don't have a proper sources.list file. Is there a way to just get the rpm for this? That way I could browse my selected sources at my leisure. (Ubuntu had this on the "system" menu, and it was very cool.)
Just read: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm, it's there ;) To be more precise: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/home.html#contents What suse version? SuSE-9.3 does not provide synaptic yet, do you need it? (take it from suse=9.2 for the time being and install the rpm with 'apt install <synaptic-rpm>' Hopefully the dependencies are satisfied... Apt is good enough for an article in the upcoming linux-magazine: http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/54/apt4rpm.pdf -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
Op vrijdag 15 april 2005 16:42, schreef David Krider:
I realize that the Ximian guys have some red carpet channels out there for mono and mono-based apps. Will these get updated for SuSE 9.3, and will they receive the "gold" versions of things like beagle between official releases of the distro? I certainly don't know.
Which are based on the apt repository ;) -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
Richard Bos wrote:
Just read: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm, it's there ;) To be more precise: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/home.html#contents
What suse version?
SuSE-9.3 does not provide synaptic yet, do you need it? (take it from suse=9.2 for the time being and install the rpm with 'apt install <synaptic-rpm>' Hopefully the dependencies are satisfied...
Apt is good enough for an article in the upcoming linux-magazine: http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/54/apt4rpm.pdf
Yes, this is 9.3, and this is exactly why I've avoided using apt-for-rpm. I used the stock 9.2 sources line at the site, and when I went to `apt-get install', it told me that there were "broken packages" and that I needed to do something like a `apt --fix-broken'. I'm really afraid that it's trying to mix 9.2 packages with my 9.3 system. I thought I was just missing something here, but it looks like synaptic (compiled for this setup) hasn't been made yet, and I think I'm getting asking for trouble to try to put the one for 9.2 on my system. Somebody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks, dk
Op vrijdag 15 april 2005 22:48, schreef David Krider:
Apt is good enough for an article in the upcoming linux-magazine: http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/54/apt4rpm.pdf
Yes, this is 9.3, and this is exactly why I've avoided using apt-for-rpm. I used the stock 9.2 sources line at the site, and when I went to `apt-get install', it told me that there were "broken packages" and that I needed to do something like a `apt --fix-broken'. I'm really afraid that it's trying to mix 9.2 packages with my 9.3 system. I thought I was just missing something here, but it looks like synaptic (compiled for this setup) hasn't been made yet, and I think I'm getting asking for trouble to try to put the one for 9.2 on my system. Somebody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
The thing is suse did not release the online version of 9.3. For this reason the apt repository is not complete and is not able to resolve all dependencies. You can resolved the dependencies using YAST for the time being untill the online suse93 gets released. -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
On 4/15/05, David Krider
Yes, this is 9.3, and this is exactly why I've avoided using apt-for-rpm. I used the stock 9.2 sources line at the site, and when I went to `apt-get install', it told me that there were "broken packages" and that I needed to do something like a `apt --fix-broken'. I'm really afraid that it's trying to mix 9.2 packages with my 9.3 system. I thought I was just missing something here, but it looks like synaptic (compiled for this setup) hasn't been made yet, and I think I'm getting asking for trouble to try to put the one for 9.2 on my system. Somebody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks, dk
You need to change in sources.list the path for the repositories. Change all 9.2 to 9.3. Of course, as 9.3 is not yet released as ftp version, the base packages will be missing, so when installing some stuff with apt-get, it will not solve all the dependencies. See which packages are missing, and install them with YaST and update them with YOU. Cheers Sunny -- Get Firefox http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=10745&t=85
On Fri April 15 2005 11:52 am, David Krider wrote: [snip]
Bottom line this for: are a lot of people really using this and NOT having problems? Or is this stuff just as tricky as it sounds? Anyone? If it's reasonable, I could definitely see using it. If it's hit-and-miss, well, I'll probably still at least try it... ;-)
I've had my system "killed" twice by apt, so I won't use it. If SUSE ever provides it, so I know it's going to work properly, THEN I'll use it. I don't like screwing up a production environment. Fred -- The only bug free software from MickySoft is still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..."
El Viernes, 15 de Abril de 2005 23:03, Richard Bos escribió:
Op vrijdag 15 april 2005 22:48, schreef David Krider:
Apt is good enough for an article in the upcoming linux-magazine: http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/54/apt4rpm.pdf
Yes, this is 9.3, and this is exactly why I've avoided using apt-for-rpm. I used the stock 9.2 sources line at the site, and when I went to `apt-get install', it told me that there were "broken packages" and that I needed to do something like a `apt --fix-broken'. I'm really afraid that it's trying to mix 9.2 packages with my 9.3 system. I thought I was just missing something here, but it looks like synaptic (compiled for this setup) hasn't been made yet, and I think I'm getting asking for trouble to try to put the one for 9.2 on my system. Somebody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
The thing is suse did not release the online version of 9.3. For this reason the apt repository is not complete and is not able to resolve all dependencies. You can resolved the dependencies using YAST for the time being untill the online suse93 gets released.
It's seems SuSE already did it ! 8-) ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/suse/i386/9.3 ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/9.3-i386/RPMS.base Kudos for SuSE! Guillermo
-- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
-- Guillermo Ballester Valor gbv@oxixares.com Ogijares, Granada SPAIN Linux user #117181. See http://counter.li.org/ Public GPG KEY http://www.oxixares.com/~gbv/pubgpg.html
Op vrijdag 15 april 2005 23:03, schreef Richard Bos:
asking for trouble to try to put the one for 9.2 on my system. Somebody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
The thing is suse did not release the online version of 9.3. For this reason the apt repository is not complete and is not able to resolve all dependencies. You can resolved the dependencies using YAST for the time being untill the online suse93 gets released.
SuSE is better than ever before, SUSE-9.3 base has been made available so the apt repository is complete now :)) The best of this all is that the pkg versions are exactly the same as the rpms provided in the box :)) -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
It's seems SuSE already did it ! 8-)
ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/suse/i386/9 .3
Can't find a boot.iso to burn to CD. Would the dvd iso do instead? As I said in other mail, it is not the FTP version yet :(, it is all the
El Sábado, 16 de Abril de 2005 13:59, steve escribió: source tree source plus the packages in the DVD-live they also released. ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/suse/i386/live-dvd-9.3 And, about the binary rpms in the FTP mirorrs, NOTE that most are with 'debuginfo' extension, I guess prepared to run in the DVD-live system, not using the HD as usual. Guillermo -- Guillermo Ballester Valor gbv@oxixares.com Ogijares, Granada SPAIN Linux user #117181. See http://counter.li.org/ Public GPG KEY http://www.oxixares.com/~gbv/pubgpg.html
On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 21:59 -0400, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Fri April 15 2005 11:52 am, David Krider wrote:
[snip]
Bottom line this for: are a lot of people really using this and NOT having problems? Or is this stuff just as tricky as it sounds? Anyone? If it's reasonable, I could definitely see using it. If it's hit-and-miss, well, I'll probably still at least try it... ;-)
I've had my system "killed" twice by apt, so I won't use it. If SUSE ever provides it, so I know it's going to work properly, THEN I'll use it. I don't like screwing up a production environment.
Indeed. I've just installed a few packages now, notably the xine packages from packman, and gputty (from the same), and I've just run into my first problems. I went to install postgresql from the official sources (including the new FTP sources), and I'm getting RPM database errors. Since I've never seen this before, I can only conclude that it's apt screwing with me. I guess I've tried it now, and can forget about it. I think, like Fred, that when Novell packages apt with SuSE officially, I'll give it another look. Until then, I note that 1) the packman xine packages install fine by hand (I've used them for years), and 2) red-carpet is now being included in the distro, and though the software it provides may be buggy, I've not seen it screw up my system. Regards all, dk
Op zaterdag 16 april 2005 17:10, schreef David Krider:
I guess I've tried it now, and can forget about it. I think, like Fred, that when Novell packages apt with SuSE officially, I'll give it another look. Until then, I note that 1) the packman xine packages install fine by hand (I've used them for years), and 2) red-carpet is now being included in the distro, and though the software it provides may be buggy, I've not seen it screw up my system.
Funny to read what is stated above. It's clear that you don't understand how it all works: If suse would package apt with the distro you would run into the same problems...., because you are using -non- suse rpms. Because of this the yuo may run into problems as you have noticed. This will happen as well when suse will include apt in the distribution. If you would use apt with the apt components base and update (or security which is just a subset of update) you won't see any problem. But than you can use yast as well. Red-carpet/apt/yast you all provide the same packages from base and update. Apt provide many many additional packages. Red-carpet is able to provide the same packages as apt, as it will use the same package metadata!! Than is smart http://smartpm.org/ than can do what apt, RC, you etc can do, but as stated it can do it better.... What problems are you getting? -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 17:40 +0200, Richard Bos wrote:
Funny to read what is stated above. It's clear that you don't understand how it all works:
What's to be confused about? I've run SuSE since 8.2, and never seen my RPM database get screwed up until I tried to install some packages with apt. I've just done an `rpm --rebuilddb', and successfully installed the packages I wanted, so I'm past the problem, but the whole thing makes me very nervous. You claim there's no difference how apt, red-carpet, or rpm work under the covers, yet, as I pointed out, I've used red-carpet many times, and not had a problem, and I've installed packman's xine packages many times without problems. It is only after using apt to do so that I've encountered this problem. Despite what you say, it looks to me like it's apt's fault that my RPM database got corrupted. If it's true that apt4rpm is *nothing* more than a frontend to rpm, then I guess I don't see the point of it. Yes, I've been confused as to how to satisfy RPM dependencies in the past, but that's been back in the RedHat 5.2 and 6.0 days. I'm well past that now, and only rarely have to go digging to see what RPM I need to satisfy some strange dependency. If apt is *only* getting me around this, and there's even a *chance* that I could hose my RPM database permanently, it's not worth the risk to me. You know what strikes me about this conversation? That YaST takes care of dependencies just fine, thank you very much. Why don't the guys putting all of this effort into packages built for this apt4rpm project just make YaST repositories? It *seems* that the project is focused on SuSE; why not create the stuff in the native SuSE way of handling software installs? Why hassle with the extra learning curve of apt when the native tools will suffice? Regards, dk
Stephen Boddy wrote:
You do realise that Packman works fine as an additional source under YaST, don't you? Guru packages too. Go into "Change Source of Installation" and add the following two entries:
Very cool. No, I did not know this. I will give it a shot. Thanks! dk
On Saturday 16 April 2005 16:10, David Krider wrote:
look. Until then, I note that 1) the packman xine packages install fine by hand (I've used them for years), and 2) red-carpet is now being
You do realise that Packman works fine as an additional source under YaST, don't you? Guru packages too. Go into "Change Source of Installation" and add the following two entries: HTTP packman.iu-bremen.de suse/9.2 anonymous HTTP ftp.gwdg.de pub/linux/misc/suser-guru/rpm/9.2 anonymous Note: Don't put the leading / on the directory, it won't work. Packman is almost seamless, but with Guru you sometimes have to manually select the version and set to refresh the package. The only other thing to be aware of is that when they release new packages you seem to have to "Refresh" the entries first, or they don't show up when installing packages. The easiest way to see what new packages are added is to do the refreshing, then in the installion window select "Package Groups", "zzz All", then sort the list by "Avail. ver.". You'll see a bunch of red lines (usually stuff updated using YOU) then any with newer versions are blue. Just set these to refresh. This way all the dependencies are worked out for you. -- Steve Boddy
On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 18:42 +0100, Stephen Boddy wrote:
On Saturday 16 April 2005 16:10, David Krider wrote:
look. Until then, I note that 1) the packman xine packages install fine by hand (I've used them for years), and 2) red-carpet is now being
You do realise that Packman works fine as an additional source under YaST, don't you? Guru packages too. Go into "Change Source of Installation" and add the following two entries:
HTTP packman.iu-bremen.de suse/9.2 anonymous
HTTP ftp.gwdg.de pub/linux/misc/suser-guru/rpm/9.2 anonymous
Note: Don't put the leading / on the directory, it won't work. Packman is almost seamless, but with Guru you sometimes have to manually select the version and set to refresh the package. The only other thing to be aware of is that when they release new packages you seem to have to "Refresh" the entries first, or they don't show up when installing packages.
The easiest way to see what new packages are added is to do the refreshing, then in the installion window select "Package Groups", "zzz All", then sort the list by "Avail. ver.". You'll see a bunch of red lines (usually stuff updated using YOU) then any with newer versions are blue. Just set these to refresh.
This way all the dependencies are worked out for you.
And keep in mind that you can turn these extra sources on and off and change the priority as well by moving them up and down in the list. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
Op zaterdag 16 april 2005 18:26, schreef David Krider:
On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 17:40 +0200, Richard Bos wrote:
Funny to read what is stated above. It's clear that you don't understand how it all works:
What's to be confused about? I've run SuSE since 8.2, and never seen my RPM database get screwed up until I tried to install some packages with apt. I've just done an `rpm --rebuilddb', and successfully installed the packages I wanted, so I'm past the problem, but the whole thing makes me very nervous.
You claim there's no difference how apt, red-carpet, or rpm work under the covers, yet, as I pointed out, I've used red-carpet many times, and not had a problem, and I've installed packman's xine packages many times without problems. It is only after using apt to do so that I've encountered this problem. Despite what you say, it looks to me like it's apt's fault that my RPM database got corrupted.
I tried to claim that the repository is no different. The client use, of course different algorithms and that's fine. This let us choose the client. You like RC, that's okay, but you use the same packages as the apt client just realize that.
If it's true that apt4rpm is *nothing* more than a frontend to rpm, then I guess I don't see the point of it. Yes, I've been confused as to how to satisfy RPM dependencies in the past, but that's been back in the RedHat 5.2 and 6.0 days. I'm well past that now, and only rarely have to go digging to see what RPM I need to satisfy some strange dependency. If apt is *only* getting me around this, and there's even a *chance* that I could hose my RPM database permanently, it's not worth the risk to me.
What problems did you see?
You know what strikes me about this conversation? That YaST takes care of dependencies just fine, thank you very much. Why don't the guys putting all of this effort into packages built for this apt4rpm project just make YaST repositories? It *seems* that the project is focused on SuSE; why not create the stuff in the native SuSE way of handling software installs? Why hassle with the extra learning curve of apt when the native tools will suffice?
As this started before Yast2 and YOU. Apt4rpm works on _all_ rpms distributions! So apt works for many many distributions and it is everywhere the same, handy if you have different distributions to support, or like to switch distro now and than ;) Although the tool is called apt4rpm, it provides support for yum and metadata repositories. Nobody stops you to add YOU and RC support. The latter is easier. The disadvantage of YOU support is that the server must process each and every package again (once for apt and another time for YOU). You can understand that the latter won't happen. -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
On Sat April 16 2005 11:10 am, David Krider wrote:
I guess I've tried it now, and can forget about it. I think, like Fred, that when Novell packages apt with SuSE officially, I'll give it another look. Until then, I note that 1) the packman xine packages install fine by hand (I've used them for years), and 2) red-carpet is now being included in the distro, and though the software it provides may be buggy, I've not seen it screw up my system.
GLAD to hear it's included......as I like RC. Fred -- The only bug free software from MickySoft is still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..."
David Krider wrote:
I've bought the last 4 boxed sets that SuSE has released, and I'm thinking that this is getting starting to get expensive. While I'll still probably get my company to pony up for 9.3, I'm starting to think about getting a burned copy from one of the distro knock-off places. (Not many offer the real SuSE DVD, but I did find one.)
The whole thing brings up something I've been stewing over for several months now. I recently installed Gentoo on my box, and I really, really like it. I like is that I have access to just about ANY software package in the open-source world, and it integrates into the system in the same manner as everything else on the system. I don't care about the supposed performance gains of strenuous optimizations. (I think this has been refuted well enough by people like Havoc Pennington.) However, I really, really hate the idea that it's going to take 3 days to recompile the whole system when some new version of libtool or gcc comes down the wire (which I've read on their planet is coming soon). And for old (think Celeron) "servers," this just gets unwieldy. It might be possible to use one machine to build everything at a base i586 level, and distribute the packages, but this sounds like a lot of extra work.
I've also installed Ubuntu on a VMware machine. It's alright. It gets back to making most interesting open-source software available as a native package, but, under the covers, it's still Debian. And unstable Debian at that. I've had several app crashes just in the short time I tested it. And there's the confusion of where all of that Debian-based stuff is going in the future. Ug. What a mess. (If you know what I'm talking about, great; if not, this isn't the place.)
I've said all of that to get to this: in my thinking, I'm back to favoring SuSE. I'm installing the CD version of 9.3 in a VMware machine as I type this, and I notice that there's no postgres server. According to Roger's notes, this is available on the DVD. It begs a couple questions:
1) When will the FTP version of 9.3 be available? 2) Will the FTP site have even more "stuff" than the DVD?
I think there's an opportunity here for SuSE to take even more mind-share. I really think there's an opening for an "extras" repository for the enthusiast. Things like James' ULB and the PackMan packages are great, but sometimes it gets a little hairy keeping everything straight. Novell could open up a community-based repo for all the latest, greatest "stuff" that people work on, and make that available as another source in YaST. (Behind the scenes may need to exist a common CVS repository so that the people making the packages can use the same underlying libraries.)
Anyway. I may be completely off-base here. I know there are bits and pieces of this already. I realize that the Ximian guys have some red carpet channels out there for mono and mono-based apps. Will these get updated for SuSE 9.3, and will they receive the "gold" versions of things like beagle between official releases of the distro? I certainly don't know. I'm just trying to highlight the only thing that I think other distro's have on SuSE: access to the majority of "stuff" in the FOSS world, and bleeding-edge packages, if desired, all of which are pre-packaged to "play nice" in native way of administering the system.
Comments? dk
You might also want to read, akthough I haven't yet: HOWTO Use APT-FOR-RPM http://nl.internet.com/ct.html?rtr=on&s=1,1j93,1,hub2,lnh9,4c69,h6di -- ======================================================================== Hylton Conacher - Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org Currently using SuSE 9.0 Professional with KDE 3.1 ========================================================================
participants (10)
-
David Krider -
Fred A. Miller -
Guillermo Ballester Valor -
Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) -
Ken Schneider -
Richard Bos -
Stephen Boddy -
steve -
Sunny -
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