Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them.

Such mechanism is already there. For exmaple if you install yast2-vm (Xen configuration/installation) you'll see "Virtual Machine Manager" in section "Virtualization". The icon will start Virt-manager (/usr/bin/virt-manager) which is a non-Yast application. -- Best Regards Ladislav Slezák Yast Developer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: lslezak@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

There are certain cli equivalents for yast menu choices, and it would be nice to see them somewhere on-screen being 'composed' upon choosing them in the menus. That way i would have learned that "yast online_update" takes me to the online update component immediately. Regards, mourik jan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philippe Landau wrote:

Josef Assad wrote:

...

Now, how about if the various modules were "tagged", so searching for either "user" or "permissions" or "access" would bring up the relevant module? That is part of what i meant below:

Yes, it certainly is a part.

...

Bad? Good? Take-me-out-back-and-shoot-me-with-my-own-tagging-paradigm? Where do live ? Is this the predominant culture/attitude around you ?

Dane living in the Middle East. That should explain it. :)

Kind regards Philippe

Cheers! - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHStd2Fcf72sjD2+QRAuM2AJ9wqAQ9kLcgGJRVafExR48f4z+m8QCeLMZz MEykNwxP7VTLSrUd61remdA= =apUd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 15:39 +0100, Ladislav Slezak wrote:

...

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. Such mechanism is already there. For exmaple if you install yast2-vm (Xen configuration/installation) you'll see "Virtual Machine Manager" in section "Virtualization". The icon will start Virt-manager (/usr/bin/virt-manager) which is a non-Yast application.

Not what I mean. This will locate added YaST modules. I am referring to non-YaST modules that are also part of configuring the system. If YaST is to be a central point for system configuration, I think it could at least be able to run, externally, other config tools. It would make YaST a one-stop configuration tool. Even if it only takes you elsewhere to run some config. Like KDE, GNOME, Compiz, nvidia driver settings, and so on and so on.

Why should a host-level configuration tool be used to adjust an individual user's application???? That just doesn't make any sense. In a work place, the LAST thing Joe User wants is a system administrator having a tool which invites the admin to screw with the user's GUI settings. And if you're running KDE and can't find the KDE config tool...or running GNOME and can't find the GNOME config tool.... there's not much help for you, because you probably can't find YaST, either.

I know that the KDE start menu has a bit of this. But that means some is in YaST, some in a KDE menu. Probably a GNOME menu as well. One needs to look all over the place for where config tools may be registered.

If YaST is to be the killer config tool, it needs to expand it's horizons. Even if sometimes as an external program starter.

Well, the LIMIT of those horizons should be firmly set at the border between SYSTEM configuration, and tweaking around with individual users' config files for applications. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 07:27 -0600, Bryen wrote:

...

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Thanks, Thomas

It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it.

Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool. If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user. And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philippe Landau wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it. Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.

If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.

And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password.

But it runs AS ROOT.

So for most users a unified control panel would be helpful.

Or hopelessly confusing... After the user changes his KDE settings via a process forked off of YaST, then he can't figure out why *HIS* KDE settings weren't changed....because the KDE settings that were changed were roots, not his normal user account.

There the difference between system and user level tasks can be educationally highlighted for example with different tabs, background colour etc. Of course the password prompt would only come up when required.

Kind regards Philippe

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 13:10 +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it.

Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.

If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.

And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password.

Exactly. It is a fictional division. For example, you go into YaST to share a personal folder via NFS, not just system-wide folders. Quite often, and especially in a desktop system, the difference is blurred. KDE's config ccenter, which is of course not under the control of YaST developers, has system settings. Of course YaST cannot keep other systems from allowing system setting changes. But the developers can recognize this fact that the distinction is not clear. Perhaps what is needed is a YaDT (D for desktop) or YaUT (U for user) where all these other configs come together. But then I would suggest that some more things in YaST be moved there as they are not really system-level tools. Like bluetooth device pairings. Those must surely be per-user. But they are in YaST. Why have things like KIWI in YaST? You are not configuring the existing system. As a user you are perhaps making some other new system. IMO, a very 'user' activity. Unless we are making self-replicating/duplicating systems:)

So for most users a unified control panel would be helpful. There the difference between system and user level tasks can be educationally highlighted for example with different tabs, background colour etc. Of course the password prompt would only come up when required.

Kind regards Philippe -- Roger Oberholtzer

OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Bryen wrote:

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design. [...]

What frustrates me personally is the lack of documentation/explanation within Yast modules. For example, the other day, I posted a query here on the mailing list asking where I could go to get definitions of the multiple options available in Samba shares as presented by Yast. People pointed me to SWAT, which turns out to be a very cool tool to use. From a "competitive" perspective, Yast loses its audience to SWAT hands down.

Should there be some flexibility, where if you click on Yast SAMBA Server, either the Yast module or the SWAT interface comes up, depending on how the administrator configures default action of a module? (i.e., Yast icon links either to a module or to an external tool?)

[...] What if Yast was to change to a web-based paradigm similar to SWAT? That way, utilities like SWAT, WebMin etc. could be seamlessly integrated into Yast. In fact, what about rewriting Yast-specific stuff as WebMin modules? That would be pretty radical... -- ====================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@optusnet.com.au ====================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bryen wrote:

Now that I think about it. How about an additional Help sub-function where administrators can enter notes about a particular module/function? That way, in a multiple-administrator environment, we can keep better track of information related to a module.

I conjure most of what Bryen says, and would also like a sort of personal "Knowledge Base" to customise and make notes in YaST. An additional benifit could be to be able to copy these notes to a new system. :-) Al -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-11-23 at 07:27 -0600, Bryen wrote: ...

What frustrates me personally is the lack of documentation/explanation within Yast modules. For example, the other day, I posted a query here on the mailing list asking where I could go to get definitions of the multiple options available in Samba shares as presented by Yast. People pointed me to SWAT, which turns out to be a very cool tool to use. From a "competitive" perspective, Yast loses its audience to SWAT hands down.

Yes, I also would like much more documentation / help on line when configuring something with Yast. What does this, what implications, what posibilities. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSIFctTMYHG2NR9URAo/RAJ4t3f8egsxppbd3qzjf2vvrxam5EgCdEJ1g fVvizrBDpD/5dfNn7JQ7e28= =mLTb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 17:58 +0100, Terje J. Hanssen wrote:

Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Thanks, Thomas

--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)

Suggestions:

1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.

I wholeheartedly second this one! There should definitely be a Yast central server deal, or at least a way to connect to Yast on each box from a standard remote client. Similar to Novell's ConsoleOne which uses eDirectory as the backend. ConsoleOne is portable to any administrator's desktop.

2. On the opposite side, although this is not part of openSUSE so far, all the Novell clients for Linux, GroupWise, Teaming+Conferencing etc. that exist for Novell Open Enterprise Server 2 (OES2/NOWS), should also be possible to run locally on that server directly. This makes it possible to use a single lab workstation for testing all server functionality and services locally.

Absolutely.

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

b) Host and client OS Manager: With experience from pre-Solaris, a host tool to customize and install, setup and manage OS images for various client types. This could be "full desktop clients", "diskless clients" (X terminals) to boot over the network from the OS server, or medium "dataless clients" just with local boot and swap from a local storage (USB/CD or other). Maybe include kiwi to create the ThinClient images.

Rgds, Terje J. Hanssen

-- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>

...

...

I wholeheartedly second this one! There should definitely be a Yast central server deal, or at least a way to connect to Yast on each box from a standard remote client. Similar to Novell's ConsoleOne which uses eDirectory as the backend. ConsoleOne is portable to any administrator's desktop.

$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password:

# yast2

Even better: ssh -X remote_machine -l root password: # yast2 YaST2 GUI shows on local display in a _secure_ way. Ken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Bart Whiteley wrote:

...

...

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.

What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?

Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 23 November 2007 11:17, James Knott wrote:

...

Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.

But only if the Windows system in question has an X server installed, right? I know there are both open-source (via Cygwin) and commercial (Hummingbird, is it?) options, but it's not exactly common for Windows users to have X capabilities. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 11:25 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Friday 23 November 2007 11:17, James Knott wrote:

...

...

Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.

But only if the Windows system in question has an X server installed, right?

I know there are both open-source (via Cygwin) and commercial (Hummingbird, is it?) options, but it's not exactly common for Windows users to have X capabilities.

At work we're NX-clients on M$-machines. Works great! For X-desktops you can even do an "ssh -X root@machine yast2" Works even better when having ssh-keys installed... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Nov 23, 2007 2:17 PM, James Knott wrote:

...

Bryen wrote:

...

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

Bart Whiteley wrote:

...

...

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.

What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?

Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in.

Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.

I suspect you've done it from Cygwin not generic Windows. (Or some other tool was used to provide basic X-Server functionality.)

Personally I prefer to have an entire remote desktop, not just the ability to initiate X-based programs via the command-line.

FreeNX provides you with that. I know it works from Windows, and I assume it works from Linux.

OTOH, getting FreeNX running with SuSE today is a pain in the butt. Especially if you want to require the client have a secure private key.

Greg

Xming also allows a full remote desktop. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

Bart Whiteley wrote:

...

...

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.

What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?

I use also ssh -X. NX provides high X speed and !M NX clients for both Linux and Windows. --Terje -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dňa Friday 23 November 2007 19:11:57 Bart Whiteley ste napísal:

...

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.

What you can do already is to use VNC to start YaST, even the installation. I know, there are some nice parts of NX, but in principle, you can do all this already. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Terje J. Hanssen wrote:

Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Thanks, Thomas

--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)

Suggestions:

1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.

since YaST is an X windows program it ALREADY has that capability. All you have to do is change the DISPLAY environment variable to that of another X display, and then, on that display, run an xhost command to allow programs running from other machines to show their windows on that display, and YaST *WILL* do exactly what you say. The problem here is not a lack of capability with the current design, merely a lack of knowledge on your part about how to display an X windows program on a remote host.

2. On the opposite side, although this is not part of openSUSE so far, all the Novell clients for Linux, GroupWise, Teaming+Conferencing etc. that exist for Novell Open Enterprise Server 2 (OES2/NOWS), should also be possible to run locally on that server directly. This makes it possible to use a single lab workstation for testing all server functionality and services locally.

3. YaST tools to include:

a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.

b) Host and client OS Manager: With experience from pre-Solaris, a host tool to customize and install, setup and manage OS images for various client types. This could be "full desktop clients", "diskless clients" (X terminals) to boot over the network from the OS server, or medium "dataless clients" just with local boot and swap from a local storage (USB/CD or other). Maybe include kiwi to create the ThinClient images.

Rgds, Terje J. Hanssen

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Terje J. Hanssen wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Terje J. Hanssen wrote:

...

Suggestions:

1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable. since YaST is an X windows program it ALREADY has that capability.

All you have to do is change the DISPLAY environment variable to that of another X display, and then, on that display, run an xhost command to allow programs running from other machines to show their windows on that display, and YaST *WILL* do exactly what you say.

The problem here is not a lack of capability with the current design, merely a lack of knowledge on your part about how to display an X windows program on a remote host.

$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password:

# yast2

Well, "xhost +" has been a known security issue for a while. Indeed I left this method 15 years ago on Solaris. http://laurentschneider.com/wordpress/2007/03/xhost-is-a-huge-security-hole....

OK.. xhost [hostname]

Beside it is neither necessary. A directly remote ssh login to start yast2 with X-forwarding does also work this way from a root terminal:

# ssh IP_adr -X /sbin/yast2 Root Password

However, my point(s) was that YaST needs a browser based interface and a

NEEDS????? It would be nice in some situations... but there's FAR more important bug fixes to worry about before doing a complete overhaul of YaST (and thereby introducing NEW bugs into what is now, finally, reliable (if slow) admin software).

fast lightweight crossplatform network client (i.e like NX). As also mentioned, Suse in general needs NX to run the whole desktop or X-apps remotely with deserved speed that competes with Citrix or RDP in the Windows world.

Why? Who administrates large numbers of Unix or Linux machines by pointy-clicky for each individual host? Nobody deserving the title administrator would do that...we are PAID to figure out how to do it the fast, efficient way (i.e. write a script, store it on a common NFS filesystem shared by all hosts, and then use another script that does a remsh out to each host to get the script executed. Using YaST or any other GUI tool to make the same change to 20 differey SuSE boxes is just plain retarded.

--Terje

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Terje J. Hanssen wrote:

Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Thanks, Thomas

--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)

Suggestions:

1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.

$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password: # yast2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep. Ruben -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ruben Safir wrote:

Hello

I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.

Ruben

What version of the kernel? I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel. Hope this helps. -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Hello

I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.

Ruben

What version of the kernel?

I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.

I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules. Any further thoughts? Ruben

Hope this helps. -- kr

-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 04:00:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Hello

I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.

Ruben What version of the kernel?

I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.

I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules.

Any further thoughts?

Did you just add it to the INITRD line or did you add it to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT line like I suggested above. If you add it to that line there is no need to do a modprobe because the module gets loaded every time. The script you are looking for is /etc/init.d/network, but it doesn't do a modprobe. Udev is SUPPOSED to cause the module to load when the hardware scan happens, but in newer kernels things have changed.

Thanks. Your right. The only thing is that currently that line is a blank string which means until now that system wasn't depending on that in order to run. It's been loading the module from elsewhere. I'm going to change that line for the network card. The USB mouse, however, looks like a more complicated problem. I found on the web the following howto instruction: ~~~~ USB Human Interface Device (HID) Configuration General HID Configuration There are two options for using a USB mouse or a USB keyboard - the standalone Boot Protocol (HIDBP) way and the full featured HID driver way. The Boot Protocol way is generally inferior, and this document describes the full featured way. The Boot Protocol way may be appropriate for embedded systems and other systems with resource constraints and no real need for the full keyboard and mouse capabilities. It is important to remember that the HID driver handles those devices (or actually those interfaces on each device) that claim to comply with the Human Interface Device (HID) specification. However the HID specification doesn't say anything about what the HID driver should do with information received from a HID device, or where the information that is sent to a device comes from, since this is obviously dependent on what the device is supposed to be doing, and what the operating system is. Linux (at the operating system kernel level) supports four interfaces to a HID device - keyboard, mouse, joystick and a generic interface, known as the event interface. These are implemented by the Input device level. HID Mouse Configuration In the kernel configuration stage, you need to turn on USB Human Interface Device (HID) support in the USB support and Mouse Support in the Input core support. You don't need to worry about the screen resolution entries for a normal mouse - these are for mouse-like devices such as a graphics tablet. Do not turn on USB HIDBP Mouse support. Perform the normal kernel rebuild and installation steps. If you are installing as modules, you need to load the input.o, hid.o and mousedev.o modules. ~~~~ there is no input.o or even input.ko in the mouse or usb source tree let alone module library tree. Ruben

-- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 06:46:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 04:00:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Hello

I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.

Ruben What version of the kernel?

I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.

I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules.

Any further thoughts?

Did you just add it to the INITRD line or did you add it to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT line like I suggested above. If you add it to that line there is no need to do a modprobe because the module gets loaded every time. The script you are looking for is /etc/init.d/network, but it doesn't do a modprobe. Udev is SUPPOSED to cause the module to load when the hardware scan happens, but in newer kernels things have changed.

Thanks. Your right. The only thing is that currently that line is a blank string which means until now that system wasn't depending on that in order to run. It's been loading the module from elsewhere. I'm going to change that line for the network card. The USB mouse, however, looks like a more complicated problem. I found on the web the following howto instruction:

I understand that the line may have been blank before. However, there is an incompatibility between the initialization on 9.3 and the newer kernel. There is no easy fix for that.

As for the mouse, I have never had to specifically load a USB mouse driver on my 9.3 system running newer kernels. You do however have to have the kernel properly configured. How did you configure the kernel? Did you start with your existing kernel config as a baseline? You can do that by copying /boot/config-`uname -r` to srcdir/config and then do 'make oldconfig'.

Thanks I configured it at baseline with make menuconfig. I got the mouse working but I had to turn on the uhci-hcb module by hand. Then it worked. I'm guessing I'm going to need to put that also in the sysconf. This will blow up my ability to rapidly switch kernels, but if it works it will be worth it. Now if I could get the 5:1 sound to work on this audigy se card. I'm sure there will be further shake outs as well. Thank you for taking all this time out to help me. Ruben

-- kr

-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:37:44AM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote: <snip>

...

Thanks

I configured it at baseline with make menuconfig. I got the mouse working but I had to turn on the uhci-hcb module by hand. Then it worked. I'm guessing I'm going to need to put that also in the sysconf. This will blow up my ability to rapidly switch kernels, but if it works it will be worth it.

Now if I could get the 5:1 sound to work on this audigy se card.

I'm sure there will be further shake outs as well.

Thank you for taking all this time out to help me.

Thanks for the response and the help. I've been in flame wars for nearly a decade now and I doubt that any troll will discourage me from trying to get good information. Two things I've learned about mailing lists over the years: First: Not all posters are equally knowledgable and a good background is the first step to deciphering good information from good intentioned background noise. Secondly: There is always someone somewhere ready to make an unproductive and obnoxious comment. Its best not to feed the trolls. As for the comment, that would be great advise, unfortunely I blew away the old kernels source code in order to make room for the new kernel. So this very good recommendation is a day late and a dollar shot. However, if you have a .config file and email it to me as an attachment, I'd apreciate it. One of the advantages, however, of doing a new kernel is to pair this kernel down. SuSE is a kitchen sink :) Ruben Ruben

...

Ruben

Ruben,

If you would have started by copying the existing config and done make oldconfig you would probably have much less trouble keeping existing devices working. You should not have to add any of the USB drivers to the sysconfig. At least that has been my experience.

And please don't be discouraged by the arrogant and even rude behavior of SOME others on the list.

-- kr

-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 23 November 2007 10:35:15 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

If you want to start a new thread,     then START A NEW THREAD.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific

If you don't mind, using openSUSE resource that is relevant for this mail list is more appropriate: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 23:35 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Hello

I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.

Ruben

Ruben Your question is related to the thread's subject "Redesign of the YaST Control Center", how, exactly?

Don't be a thread hijacker!

If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific

"Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. This will limit your audience. Some mail readers, like mutt, allow the user to sort by thread and then hide messages in a thread by folding the thread. Folks who do that will never see your message."

Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for? -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 07:18 -0600, Steve Jeppesen wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:10:44 -0600 Bryen wrote:

...

On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 23:35 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Ruben Safir wrote:

...

Hello

I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.

Ruben

Ruben Your question is related to the thread's subject "Redesign of the YaST Control Center", how, exactly?

Don't be a thread hijacker!

If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific

"Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. This will limit your audience. Some mail readers, like mutt, allow the user to sort by thread and then hide messages in a thread by folding the thread. Folks who do that will never see your message."

Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?

I've seen the subject line go from this; "Re: [opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center" to "Re: [opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3" on this very thread. I think maybe Aaron was trying to refer to that.

Steve

As long as the poster changed the subject line, I don't care how she or he created the email in the first place. Some people here seem intent on attacking others for their way of doing things without realizing what's going on. For example, I could attack you because you clearly did a "Reply All" instead of "Reply to List", thus causing me to receive a double copy of your email, thus cluttering my mailbox. However, I'm mature enough to realize that your email client (Claws) may not support a "Reply to list" function. Believe me, I got attacked early on after joining this list when I didn't know I had a "Reply to list" function in my Evolution client. All day long, that new thread was posted and discussed upon. No one seemed to have any objections to it. Then in the middle of the night, long afterwards after multiple threads, Aaron came along and complained. His complaint cluttered my mailbox needlessly. Instead of attacking, he could have advised. People are so much more receptive to adjustment when advised rather than attacked. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Bryen [11-24-07 08:43]:

As long as the poster changed the subject line, I don't care how she or he created the email in the first place.

then *you* are ignorant of threading capable mail clients and searching archives!

Some people here seem intent on attacking others for their way of doing things without realizing what's going on.

Which *you* are doing since you lack knowledge of the situation.

For example, I could attack you because you clearly did a "Reply All" instead of "Reply to List", thus causing me to receive a double copy of your email, thus cluttering my mailbox.

which you *should* do

However, I'm mature enough to realize that your email client (Claws) may not support a "Reply to list" function. Believe me, I got attacked early on after joining this list when I didn't know I had a "Reply to list" function in my Evolution client.

yes, it is so difficult as to be beyond many to edit out the incorrect reply addresses :^)

All day long, that new thread was posted and discussed upon. No one seemed to have any objections to it. Then in the middle of the night, long afterwards after multiple threads, Aaron came along and complained. His complaint cluttered my mailbox needlessly.

you are *ranting* now.

Instead of attacking, he could have advised. People are so much more receptive to adjustment when advised rather than attacked.

join the crowd - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHSD8dClSjbQz1U5oRApXGAKCB0YIfZcB6ICi/mdcNJV/bgKcALwCgqxFd VD6TyK2WD++kUeL5vCwY3Wk= =K1Gz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 06:10 -0600, Bryen wrote:

...

Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?

No, you are mistaken.

While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Is there anything in the netiquette about arrogance and elitism scaring off the very people these lists exist for? -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Saturday 24 November 2007 07:57, K.R. Foley wrote:

...

...

Is there anything in the netiquette about arrogance and elitism scaring off the very people these lists exist for?

It's a hard balance to strike. If no one corrects things like thread hijacking, inappropriate top-posting or insufficient (or nonexistant) quoted material trimming, the overall quality of the list deteriorates. Not to sound like a grizzled oldtimer (whether or not I actually am), the active community on this list isn't nearly as fastidious about these things as it was a few years ago.

There are better and worse ways to ride herd on the newbies, but the job must be done.

I agree totally. However, part of netiquette is also being courteous. Not always, but more times than not people that jump so hard on newbies don't have much else to offer. I have been around for a long time, although not on this list. One common thing I hear from many newbies and non-newbies alike is that they are afraid to ask for help because they are afraid of being raked over the coals. I have even seen TOO MANY of these folks go back to windoze because of being discouraged by this sort of thing.

...

-- kr

Randall Schulz

-- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 04:53:24PM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 06:10 -0600, Bryen wrote:

...

Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?

No, you are mistaken.

While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.

I hijacked my own thread! ROFL Ruben

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

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iD8DBQFHSEj2tTMYHG2NR9URAgFzAKCTmUPhlXYwDPKYxEERI+LA4crjhgCghd8b wzriBeQem+C8wNx7gMFjGzw= =HUx/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:32:21PM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 14:55 -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

...

No, you are mistaken.

While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.

I hijacked my own thread! ROFL

No, you hijacked Bryen's email:

Thanks I'll keep it in mind. -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Robert Smits wrote:

On Friday 23 November 2007 03:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see.

All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories.

How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Is there reason to believe that YAST downgrades the network connection when it's downloading updates? NO? Well, then it's picking up information from the repositories as fast as it can be pulled out of the network card.

And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day?

I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake,

Exactly. It amounts to nothing more than wasted effort, when there are more important things to work on. I'm so glad I didn't install 10.3, because it appears that the SuSE team released the product WAY before it should have been. The sorts of problems reported on this list are more of what I expect in a Beta-version or (at most) an x.0 release.

but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber wrote:

On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

It amounts to nothing more than wasted effort, when there are more important things to work on.

It's good you pointed that out, because it's certainly not possible for different people to work on different things at the same time, and of course everyone is perfectly skilled to work on the things you consider important.

With the list of problems in 10.3 that are posted to this list, it's quite obvious that there aren't enough developers taking care to make sure that the packages are actually RIGHT in the first place. So the proposal is to take people OFF of getting the software working, so that perfectly good software can be totally overhauled, rather than just adding a few tweaks. That doesn't make ANY sense, unless you're someone who's addicted to "new New NEW!!!!!" all the time. But in the business community especially, that just plain old won't cut it. When the broken stuff is fixed THEN worry about doing a complete rewrite of YaST. YaST isn't broken... all it needs is a little added functionality here and there...but NO CHANGES to what is already working. YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)

-- Benjamin Weber

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 16:39 +0000, Benji Weber wrote:

On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)

No-one suggested a complete re-write. Perhaps next time you could take the trouble to read the entire /subject line/ of the proposal before you reply with flames.

This is a proposal from the usability team to re-organise the existing modules into more logical groups, and improve the control-centre (the shell that lists the available modules) user interface so that people can find what they are looking for.

This has nothing whatsoever to-do with re-writing YaST.

I agree. As I stated in my first post, the overall current design of the UI, to me, is fine. But I think, even if everyone has gone off-topic and focused on modules, etc. then that is also valuable information for the OP. Sometimes when you do a survey, you get completely different results than expected. That's the beauty, and downfall of surveys. The beauty of this survey was that it was an open-ended survey, rather than a fixed-form survey. Too often I start to answer a survey, only to find that the questions and possible answers are extremely limited and I know that any answer I give, however close to reality it is, may not give the surveyor the proper picture, and I usually stop at that point. My guess is, Novell will take note that people are focusing on modules and not UI and making the proper assumption that it is modules that need work, not UI. At least, I hope so. I don't think people were wrong to go off-topic, and I think Novell is pleased to see great discussion, however the path it has taken from its original purpose. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 24, 2007 2:54 PM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Benji Weber wrote:

...

On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)

The point is they wont, benjamin will just tell that to you again, despite its written in th first message of this thread.

Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.

Obviously you are ignoring the first post entirely

That would be tweaking, not a "radical new design"

From the original post: "we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design."

Translating for those less gifted about grey matter density: they want to redesign the yast ****CONTROL***** *****CENTER*****. This doesnt mean yast will be re-written.

...

This has nothing whatsoever to-do with re-writing YaST.

Your reading comprehension need work.

heh, funny boy By the way, this thread has more than 50 messages, almost all offtopic, therefore its not useful, and can be safely ignored by everyone. Lots of "experts" talking.... Marcio --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

[Philippe Landau]

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Your reading comprehension need work. Seems to me you would like to be right first and foremost.

...

ALL OF YOU Also please stop shouting.

Hi, Philippe, and everybody. I'm skimming over the current exchange. A troll is someone who usually writes to provoke emotive reactions, not a real exchange of ideas. We should calm down ourselves and avoid replying to trolls, as this yields nowhere and only raises the level of noise. It is usually effective in the long run, for getting rid of trolls, to merely ignore them. Back to serious things! :-) The original message refers to a description of the methodology used in search for a redesign of the UI, as described here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center/Card_Sort_Study At least from my viewpoint, this is a fairly original approach to the design of UIs, which is quite interesting, and thought triggering... Someone once wrote that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee". I wonder a bit what a horse designed by statistics methods would look like :-). Clustering in itself, while undoubtedly powerful in some areas, is not always considered as the best way to reveal structure (loosely interpreting Venables and Ripley, MASS, 4th edition, p. 316). Moreover, getting as far as computing averages of clustering results is intriguing, but I wonder if it may be so significant (I do not know!). I once read that the "average human" (average liver, average hearth, average limbs, average weight, average height, etc.) just does not exist, it could not even be assembled, it would not survive. :-) The experience described above could yield good paths for ideas, but in such areas, this has often been demonstrated in successful projects, best results are usually obtained under the direction of a single architect, which of course should be competent and visionary enough. I guess (or at least hope) that the request for input that has been launched here, is meant to feed the thoughts of such an architect. If he wants to equally please everybody, it is likely that the resulting UI would be a bit "drab", and not raise the enthusiasm of good art works. UIs became important and are so nowadays. So, revising an UI might be a radical change, even if the underlying engine is rather stable. Besides, as long as the UI gives proper and intelligent access to a good engine, nice changes in UI design could not only be fairly entertaining for old timers, but also good selling points for newcomers. -- François Pinard http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 07:40 +0100, jdd wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.

He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"

for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"

Not for me. A change of the UI is just an external, triffle, change. He said "radical", so it means everything, nothing kept from the original: not the ui, not the engine. Nothing. Everything new. Radical! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSWVitTMYHG2NR9URAsk/AJ9YO/K+N7skPZ557OVJJhe/BYOndgCeMBxf PeGBaFXpoV8o2Ofhqg14SJ4= =Z1uz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 07:58 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

...

...

...

He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"

for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"

Not for me. A change of the UI is just an external, triffle, change. He said "radical", so it means everything, nothing kept from the original: not the ui, not the engine. Nothing. Everything new. Radical!

Carlos,

just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST.

Not knowing how yast works internally, the YCC is for me, Yast. I'm unable to make such a thin distinction. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSdmytTMYHG2NR9URAhBwAJ9ltHVqfjnFc1p/0UaUCvu+4NZ/ogCfWNE1 0eHLRCnrz2qDJo74GjoJzAU= =6smq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 22:21 -0200, Druid wrote:

...

...

just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST.

Not knowing how yast works internally, the YCC is for me, Yast. I'm unable to make such a thin distinction.

Thats precisely why you should listen to the people who knows better, like the guy pointed to you, instead of insisting in error pattern.

which is... ? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHShdqtTMYHG2NR9URAsd8AJ9CB1onHyT+L5XAkDtqz9fhjqm9FQCcD91T rSbqmhzHHsJgYqHEe+gWQ2g= =FYMp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 22:55 -0200, Druid wrote:

...

...

Thats precisely why you should listen to the people who knows better, like the guy pointed to you, instead of insisting in error pattern.

which is... ?

Which is making this thread even longer wiht 99% of noise, and the whole discussion about how yast "should be rewritten".

Well, we are precisely talking about how YaST should be rewritten. That's what they asked for, and that's what they are getting - and if the route we are taking is not to the liking of Novell/SuSE people, it is Novell/SuSE people who should say so - not you, and not me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSiHVtTMYHG2NR9URAqd9AJ9W4jAGiP/A2WBYkIjoWTWCSXzRMQCfQAtg N4vlfDWc3JML+Bv3mtY4z2M= =/BtG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 23:43 -0200, Druid wrote:

...

That's what they asked for,

No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.

Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the noise. Nor will I try to convince you on changing your opinion or not saying it. If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSjWRtTMYHG2NR9URArdJAKCD+ctPnng5jmk7OFTQw7LupIOchwCdEnGf 6yk1nVslMLO+K0spBjvOkGQ= =TQkO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 01:04 -0200, Druid wrote:

...

...

No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.

Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the

Yeah, its a big conspiracy

...

If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any

So if nobody explicitly tells you not to jump in a jet engine in full throttle, that means you should do it, right? Stop acting like a kid. Read the original post. Just read it once.

...

change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so.

And you have the freedom to make a better discussion. Its unbelievable that you are either playing dumb or ignoring this to cause noise, which I dont understand why. I cant understand that its not crystal clear that this 120 messages in a thread is pure mess.

Marcio

And I can't understand why you presume to assume it is okay to speak for the rest of us. I've been watching this altercation between you and Carlos and you both are free to speak your opinions however you see fit. But I find it offensive that you have seen fit to say "all have agreed" and that speaks volumes that you have assumed to speak on my behalf. Please, express your opinions and statements as your own, not as mine. Some of us think that this has been a good and interesting debate and do not consider this as a mess. And some think the opposite. However, you are free to have the opposite opinion. But please, please... do not speak on my behalf again. Your constant bickering with Carlos is what has made this thread grow even longer. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Druid wrote:

And yeah, you can say Im rude.

Marcio

I don't think anyone's really been rude, though there has been a bit of an expectations mismatch. It really _is_ about just the control center UI (that's been pretty clear), but the discussion brought up some topics around yast which weren't to the straight and narrow point. So, apart from a few (light) bruises, I consider that nothing's lost; any time you get feedback from passionate users you're doing great (people in proprietary s/w shops go to great pains and spend much to get half the user feedback we get in here). Correspondingly, I think it's very reasonable for us to go something like "oh, okay, so the community has something to say about YaST so let's make that another thread". And on the other end, "oh whoops, ok you guys meant the UI only. K, I'll hop on that other thread". Now, back to the control center. Here's an idea: the use case is, someone just installed suse, heard much about the control center, and wants to dive in and use it for task X, say setting permissions. In windows, this was called "user management" and in debian it was called (say) "access control". So, they wade around the entries a bit, opening the various modules until they find what they're looking for. Now, how about if the various modules were "tagged", so searching for either "user" or "permissions" or "access" would bring up the relevant module? Bad? Good? Take-me-out-back-and-shoot-me-with-my-own-tagging-paradigm? JA - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHSst3Fcf72sjD2+QRAtXiAJ0XbVFwJS7UtgDKR0R/A/BVYRRZ9gCgo7tv ekZ0ayb6ImPvISx4n1TXOGI= =/Xck -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Druid wrote:

...

...

No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really. Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the

Yeah, its a big conspiracy

Consisting of you ;-)

...

If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any

So if nobody explicitly tells you not to jump in a jet engine in full throttle, that means you should do it, right? Stop acting like a kid. Read the original post. Just read it once.

I did. It called for "a radical new design". Anybody who has ever written software would evaluate that to mean a complete replacement of the code, except for a few low-level functions which are several function-calls beneath a mouse-click.

...

change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so.

And you have the freedom to make a better discussion. Its unbelievable that you are either playing dumb or ignoring this to cause noise, which I dont understand why. I cant understand that its not crystal clear that this 120 messages in a thread is pure mess.

blah blah blah.

Marcio

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.

He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"

for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"

Then your English comprehension could use some improvement. [That's not a slam, it's just a comment] "radical new design" implies drastic, sweeping changes of the entire code, most likely involving throwing out all of the old code and replacing it with entirely new code. In the context of software, how is a trivial change in the appearance of the UI a "radical new" anything? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel. Checking for changes could be done in seconds.

Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 24, 2007 10:31 AM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Philippe Landau wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel.

So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies).

Downloading in parallel only speeds up communication when the different files being downloaded are on completely different PHYSICAL disk drives. That's not very well likely for the update files on a repository.

I doubt very much that we are disk limited during the startup of YOU or Yast-Software-Management. Those both take a couple minutes to initiate (from my office with a T-1 connection). During that time they seem to be interrogating one repository at a time in a serial fashion. Doing that in parallel does seem like it could improve things. The bigger issue is I suspect these 2 modules were not the focus of the desired redesign. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philippe Landau wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel.

So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies). Downloading several files at the same time is not a challenge. If you want to go down to hardware level, much is done with

Aaron Kulkis wrote: the help of RAM :-)

Downloading in parallel only speeds up communication when the different files being downloaded are on completely different PHYSICAL disk drives. That's not very well likely for the update files on a repository.

...

Checking for changes could be done in seconds.

It's possible that there could be some optimizations there... but I doubt it... checking for updates involves a large amount of data to download -- or else risk that a foul-up on one check means that you never see that package as having an update until the NEXT update AFTER THAT comes around.

I'll stick with the fool-proof way of getting all the version/update info every time. It's not THAT long of a wait. It is, as Clayton states too:

Clayton wrote:

If you have the patience to actually start it up. It takes forever to refresh the repositories each and every time I launch the software install component. I give up on it long before it ever finishes.. After about 10 minutes I kill it and launch Smart. Less than a minute to refresh, and I am using the same repositories.

Bob Ewart detailed how checking for changes could be done in seconds, like in other distributions:

I agree with all the comments on fixing the software updater. That really needs work. The other day, download.opensuse.org was timing out for most of the morning(EST). According to a comment on the repositories page, this is supposed to be a re-director to a local repository. It should never be down. Maybe the initial interchange with a repository should be a simple date stamp of the latest change. That way downloading large lists could be avoided. I got a kick out of the installation script for the MS fonts. It checks a number of sites and picks the fastest one to respond.

Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place.

Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

Doesn't Smart download in parallel (both when updating the repositories and when downloading RPMs)? It sure seems like it does on my computer... and I certainly do not have any problems with a read write head bouncing all over the place. I download multiple files at the same time with BitTorrent... no problems. I download multiple files at the same time via my web browser... no problems. I thought the whole point of a multitasking OS was to do things in parallel... not serially.... including downloads.

the problem is downloading multiple files from *multiples servers*, if from the same server, it's unproductive jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 25, 2007, at 12:45 AM, Clayton wrote:

...

the problem is downloading multiple files from *multiples servers*, if from the same server, it's unproductive

OK, I can see that....

Wow, we've drifted far from the original topic.

C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I agree. Perhaps if ya'll want to talk about speeding up software updater you can start a new thread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place.

Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity.

So you think the repository is going to keep the ENTIRE database of files in RAM??? If not, then we're back to multi-millisecond delays for each and every seek performed by a disk drive read/write head. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday 25 November 2007 02:20:29 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place. Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity. So you think the repository is going to keep the ENTIRE database of files in RAM??? If not, then we're back to multi-millisecond delays for each and every seek performed by a disk drive read/write head.

Aaron,

giving so much attention to words and so little to numbers is annoying.

Part of being a good engineer is paying attention to EVERYTHING. In this case, the numbers are immaterial.

The "ENTIRE database" ie. zypp.db is some 50 MB to 150 MB, depends on number of repositories. If that has no place in RAM it is for sure time to buy some.

And you can assure that, while RPMs and other files are being downloaded from it the repository will preferentially keep zypp.db in memory (i.e. not get swapped out to disk), by what method exactly? The Linux kernal can (and will) swap out memory used by any process EXCEPT init. The typical repository holds FAR more files than can fit in the physical RAM of anything smaller than high end compute servers. Generic motherboards for 64-bit CPUs aren't holding any more than 8MB when all the slots are filled.... and many don't even enough for that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:21:37 am Bryen wrote:

I think the way to compromise here is to add an additional option.  Mark certain repositories as being "checkable for updates."  If I'm using updater, then only repositories that are enabled and marked as updateable would be checked.  Otherwise, if it is only marked enabled, then you only get the full gamut when you go into software management.

Well, it seems that it works that way right now. If Automatic Refresh is enabled for specific repository, it will check for updates every time, even if that repository doesn't change. You can check that with CD/DVD. It works. If Automatic Refresh is disabled than one has to tell Refresh Now in order to have them refreshed, but then all repositories are refreshed, not only enabled. I have disabled Automatic Refresh for all except Update repository, and then when there is indication that there is newer version that has for me interesting changes, than run Refresh Now. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 November 2007 07:14:31 pm Bryen wrote:

Hmm..

Ok then I revise my proposal.  :-)  Instead of the aforementioned compromised which apparently already existed unbeknownst to some of us, I propose a word change tweak to make that more clearer than "Automatic Refresh."  :-)

Here we come to the one of problems with current YaST administration suite of programs. While it is quite intuitive what 2 word expression means, it is not clear when that automatic refresh is applied. It could be on every repository access, periodically, after some time that repository is not accessed. The last is default for zypper and I know from bugzilla that period is 10 minutes. For YaST Software Management I would have to check. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 24/11/2007, Chris Worley wrote:

My $.02:

Yast does not need redesigned from scratch.

Every application has issues, and every newbie programmer wants to start over from scratch. When they finish, they want to start over again. "The grass is always greener on the other side" (stateside saying). Add that to every newbie programmer wants to write "the perfect programming language", and you know how to spot youthful exuberance.

And if you, (or anyone else) had actually bothered to read the proposal you would realise that this is a proposal for redesigning the UI for the control centre, just a shell which lets people choose a YaST module. A re-write of yast or changing the package management system, or moving to a web UI etc were not even mentioned. This might be as simple as picking an off-the-shelf browser such as system-settings or its gnome equivalent, or writing a very simple application. The primary concern has been how to organise and show the existing YaST modules so that people can find what they're looking for easily. This isn't about re-writing YaST. This hasn't stopped lots of people on the list from creating completely off-topic discussion though. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 24, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Benji Weber wrote:

...

...

My $.02:

Yast does not need redesigned from scratch.

Every application has issues, and every newbie programmer wants to start over from scratch. When they finish, they want to start over again. "The grass is always greener on the other side" (stateside saying). Add that to every newbie programmer wants to write "the perfect programming language", and you know how to spot youthful exuberance. And if you, (or anyone else) had actually bothered to read the

On 24/11/2007, Chris Worley wrote: proposal you would realise that this is a proposal for redesigning the UI for the control centre, just a shell which lets people choose a

The original post said "Radical redesign"

That implies a hell of a lot more than just a cosmetic change of the UI.

...

YaST module. A re-write of yast or changing the package management system, or moving to a web UI etc were not even mentioned. This might be as simple as picking an off-the-shelf browser such as system-settings or its gnome equivalent, or writing a very simple application. The primary concern has been how to organise and show the existing YaST modules so that people can find what they're looking for easily. This isn't about re-writing YaST.

The original post said it was. We've all been arguing that the changes SHOULD BE RESTRICTED to cosmetic changes.

...

This hasn't stopped lots of people on the list from creating completely off-topic discussion though.

You need to go back and read the original post.

...

-- Benjamin Weber

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I disagree. The original post meant a rewrite of the UI. The wiki page pays attention to a rewrite of the UI. It's a rewrite of the UI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 13:12 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 21:56 -0600, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

I disagree. The original post meant a rewrite of the UI. The wiki page pays attention to a rewrite of the UI. It's a rewrite of the UI.

He may have meant that, but he did not /write/ that. For me, a radical redesign means that everything is to be changed, not just the UI. The UI was not mentioned.

He could have said "a radical UI redesign" - but he didn't.

In fact, I don't care about the UI redesign, it is fine as it is. I know my way about it, I don't want to learn a new interface.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I agree with Carlos, not just for the wording of the original post but because of the intent of the survey in and of itself. If you look at the wiki page, on the Problem paragraph, it becomes clear that the issue is an attempt to reduce user confusion and bug reporting. For Yast developers, they may have assumed that the problem is because of the current look and feel and that it needed to be changed somehow. In fact, what has happened is that instead of complaining about the look and feel, we've said "No, the look and feel is just fine. It is ....(fill in the blank)... that is the problem." That's far more valuable feedback for the survey than you may think. I'll restate my earlier posting here. A survey is about finding out what people think/perceive and whether those thoughts/perceptions were similar to what the surveyor thought/perceived. This survey has taken on an entirely different animal than what appears to have been intended in the literal translation of the original post. Nevertheless, you can't say that it is wrong. In my nearly 2 months here, this is the first time I've seen such vigorous debate about Yast, and that has to be a good thing no matter what. I am certain that the Yast developers completely appreciate what has transformed here. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 08:19 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday 25 November 2007 07:24:55 am Bryen wrote:

...

For Yast developers, they may have assumed that the problem is because of the current look and feel and that it needed to be changed somehow. In fact, what has happened is that instead of complaining about the look and feel, we've said "No, the look and feel is just fine. It is ....(fill in the blank)... that is the problem." That's far more valuable feedback for the survey than you may think.

I'll restate my earlier posting here. A survey is about finding out what people think/perceive and whether those thoughts/perceptions were similar to what the surveyor thought/perceived. This survey has taken on an entirely different animal than what appears to have been intended in the literal translation of the original post. Nevertheless, you can't say that it is wrong. In my nearly 2 months here, this is the first time I've seen such vigorous debate about Yast, and that has to be a good thing no matter what.

Sincerely, where do you read survey ;-)

You don't have to see the word "survey" to be intelligent enough to understand it is implied. Here's the definition of "survey": "to take a general or comprehensive view of or appraise, as a situation, area of study, etc." That's exactly what this thread is. But I know you were just saying that in jest because I have seen your writings in the past and know you are intelligent enough to have known it was a survey. Thanks for adding some jocularity to the thread. :-) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 23 Nov, 2007 at 18:06:22 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:

On Friday 23 November 2007 03:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center

Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see.

Indeed, thanks for that.

All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories. And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day?

Agreed.

I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake, but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it.

Me too, though 'better' *is* kind of a subjective experience I guess :) In other subthreads there are discussions on a variety of aspects. My take on a couple of them: [architecture] I agree that a server/client sort of thing might be nice. There was some discussion about ssh -X vs. NX and 'going https://' To me the speed of ssh vs. NX seems irrelevant. If we're talking about server/client - then the traffic would mainly consist of 'control-messages' anyway, right? server> "here are the options" client> "do this" server> "ok" vs: server> "bitmap bitmap bitmap" client> "mouse click on coordinates such and such" server> "pixel pixel pixel" So what's needed is a networked YaST *protocol*, encapsulated in strong encryption, rather than a way of transporting a locally generated gui somewhere else (or rather; a remotely generated gui transported to 'here'). https:// ? please don't: Next thing you know it, I'm going to need javascript or mono or something, in order to administrate remote boxes... Cross-platform? Thanks, but no thanks: I have no desire to see linux core administration at the mercy of windows-viruses. Functionality? Well, if the server knows something that my local YaST-console doesn't, there should be an option to download and install that module from the server. [gui-layout] I'm a big fan of tree structures, and the "left-pane shows navigation, right pane shows content" way of things. I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST does a very good job. However, since there are more ways than one to represent the various administrative tasks, it might be nice to have different tree *types*, selectable. On the other end of the spectrum we have the, no offense, 'gnome-menu' type of layout; Everything is one window, with icons spread out, and a scroll-bar that you have to manipulate. I don't like it. There, I said it. MO /jon -- YMMV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jon Clausen wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov, 2007 at 09:18:16 +0100, Jon Clausen wrote:

...

[gui-layout] I'm a big fan of tree structures, and the "left-pane shows navigation, right pane shows content" way of things.

I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST does a very good job.

actually, let me rephrase that;

I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST is a good example.

/jon

Please do not change the ability to access YaST from a terminal. When I installed 10.3 on a Intel quad system, the installation locked up at the very end and rebooting didn't help. I had to boot into level 3 and run all the updates from the terminal. Now this system is running fine. Maybe it's time for a 10.3.1 release. There are a number of places in the KDE control center which require administrator access. It would be nice if those things could be accessed from YaST. One place to do all the administrator tasks. I agree with all the comments on fixing the software updater. That really needs work. The other day, download.opensuse.org was timing out for most of the morning(EST). According to a comment on the repositories page, this is supposed to be a re-director to a local repository. It should never be down. Maybe the initial interchange with a repository should be a simple date stamp of the latest change. That way downloading large lists could be avoided. I got a kick out of the installation script for the MS fonts. It checks a number of sites and picks the fastest one to respond. I've been on SuSE since Caldera went down. I've tried many other distributions over the years. YaST is the main reason that I keep coming back. -- Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see.

All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories. And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day?

I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake, but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it.

I second this. I would like to be able to tell it to update or not to update the repositories at the time when I start the software installation module, and have an option to tell it to skip certain updates. I know this all can be done, but since it is localized in a separate module, it can be quite inconvenient. A couple of simple user interface issues. It should follow the configuration of Konqueror (or whatever is appropriate in Gnome, if the user is using gnome) with respect of single/dobule click to open the files. I much prefer to use double click to open files, and that's how everything but YaST is configured. So I end up starting 2 copies of the same modules sometimes. Also, YaST should have an option to select a language different from the user's locale. I work in the Ukrainian locale so that I can use Ukrainian language easily, but I much prefer my user interface in English. The current YaST translations into Ukrainian are nearly incomprehensible (or at least incomprehensible to someone who learned to use SuSE when it was all Enlglish, and does all her computer work in English). KDE settings allow me to choose the language applications use, and YaST should have that option, too. Myrosia -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

And having the "abort" button really work, and instantly. It is impossible to abort YOU in mid-download-repos-phase, unless you kill it - which means you later have to find the run/pid file and remove it manually.

Oh, yes - meant to mention this, too.

Perhaps you can do that from the command line.

My root locale is english, so I can fire up yast in Spanish this way:

nimrodel:~ # LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 KDE_LANG=es_ES yast2

I actually have a "spanish" script to callup any program in Spanish:

#!/bin/sh LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 DICTIONARY=espanol KDE_LANG=es_ES $*

Doesn't work for me :( I tried several options (POSIX, C, en_US, setting all the variables as you suggested) and YaST still starts up in Ukrainian. I don't want to run in English locale and have have to start individual programs from the command line to get Ukrainian, though, because then copy and paste begins to behave badly. And I use too many applications where Ukrainian input and output are important, including those that sometimes get started automatically (like OpenOffice when I double-click on a file). If I have to start everything from the command line, this will become too much of a hassle. YaST is the only one that has problems with language settings, though - other applications either respect KDE settings, or have their own language setting that I can adjust. Myrosia -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Myrosia Dzikovska wrote:

I second this. I would like to be able to tell it to update or not to update the repositories at the time when I start the software

better on. YaST shouldn't update at all without notice. It should first load and ask for the software to install. at that time only it should ask shall I update? and after that ask ? there is a new version, do you want it? and if not still install (at least as long as there are the corretc package available), insist to update if there are nor more the registered packages online. It's specially boresome to wait for YaST updating when You have the package already available from the dvd jdd (NB: that is it could also update silently in the background when online) -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis schrieb:

The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.

...

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

Keep it how it is! It works.

Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.

Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season. Cheers /J -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Focus on the badly broken and deficient things first. [...] Look at what a disaster the online update system has been. It is dramatically improving, but it still has a VERY long way to go to be something usable compared to competing distributions. Focus the developer time and energies on things like that. In some respects it is better then in other distros. Update offers contain an explanation of what changed. There is more information available. But software is spread over too many repositories. And often is hard to find at all. For example, i still did not find: bluefish, stellarium, kbackup. It would also help if repositories contained more pointers,

Clayton wrote: like for Kompozer/Composer which is in SeaMonkey. And it could help setting up the most popular repositories. "Provides" could be checked by default. General update option could be made more obvious. Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 November 2007 02:27:29 am Jan Tiggy wrote: ...

...

Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.

Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.

Hi Jan, No one wants to develop something new without good reason, specially not Novell that is paying for this. YaST is old tool, and it was changed from time to time to adjust layout and functionality to new demands. This version is few years old and it was example how to do it when it was created, but now there are better solutions and YaST has to go forward. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 November 2007 04:15:47 am G T Smith wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 24 November 2007 02:27:29 am Jan Tiggy wrote: ...

...

...

Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.

Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.

Hi Jan,

No one wants to develop something new without good reason, specially not Novell that is paying for this.

YaST is old tool, and it was changed from time to time to adjust layout and functionality to new demands. This version is few years old and it was example how to do it when it was created, but now there are better solutions and YaST has to go forward.

Been following this discussion and some of its diversions with interest.

Some thoughts....

a) I think that currently Yast as a overall design is sound and really needs little change. Where some things are kept needs some tweaking, but to change references like NISS to something like 'centralised user management' is probably inappropriate and likely to create as much confusion as it is to enlighten.

Sure.

b) A good idea would be links to a local (at least for networking, if your networking is broken and you want more info, an externally networked resource is not got to be entirely helpful) html version of the documentation and where appropriate HowTos from the modules as with swat.

It is logical to have basic network off line, and basic system setup in the book.

c) Probably the thing which needs most revision is the software management side. I seem to remember with 8.x and 9.x fairly detailed information on a particular package was available before one installed it.

Now we have a scenario where we get a massive and slow update of local information resources (which makes this process rather painful), that does not include such info. From a company (Novell) that has access to some of the most efficient database synchronisation technologies around, this is somewhat unbelievable, and needs fixing.

So far I know they are looking to provide package information before package is installed, but that is not trivial for repositories that are not static. Simply they don't want to rush and slow down package management.

d) Though there is some doubt on the attribution of the quote below... I think one needs to be aware that there is validity in the point made...change for changes sake is a dangerous trap...

[...] but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation." (Caius Petronius Arbiter (Roman Administrator). c.60 A.D.)

Since Roman times life is not changed that much :-)

=========================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.

Bjarne Stroustrup ===========================================================================

http://en.opensuse.org/Famous_quotes -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Nov 24, 2007, at 2:27 AM, Jan Tiggy wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis schrieb:

...

The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.

...

...

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.

...

Keep it how it is! It works.

...

Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.

Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.

Cheers /J -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

But, you see, this is the reason there is more than one developer at SUSE ;).

Well, unfortunately, they're not getting enough basic bug-fixes done to warrant devoting man-hours towards starting up a whole new project to replace something that already works, and only needs a few extensions.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list.

I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing!

If someone can't figure out Yast I have two suggestions:

a) Return your computer to where you bought it. They are probably to stupid to own one anyway. b) Stick with Windows. Your computer on training wheels. Besides, Billy will be more than glad to trash your computer for you.

Do you know how much we all hate it when people tell users who are a little confused with Linux to just "run back to Windows"?

The examples on the page looked a whole lot like KDE System Settings with more functionality. If that's what your shooting for, just add modules to System Settings.

That is an idea, but it still doesn't help the 'figuring out which module to use' part.

Yast is, hands down, the best control center for any distro I have looked at.

I agree.

...

...

This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control

Center.

Two thoughts:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Here's the thing: YaST isn't broken, since YaST is basically just a container for launching the YaST modules. ON that note, a bunch of icons in a window is perfect! But, a new user might not know where to go to do certain things. This is what is being discussed.

K. I. S. S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 17:59 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

...

Thomas Goettlicher wrote:

...

...

Hi everyone,

we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.

I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list.

I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing!

SuSE 9.0 was the first time I ever worked on anything other than DOS/Windows. On the other hand I had used about everything from about DOS 3/Windows 1 up through Win ME then XP. My first PC was an 8088XT. My first computer was a TI 99/4A then a CoCo.

What the heck is so confusing about "Software" in the left panel and "Software Management", "Online Update", etc in the right. OR, "Hardware" in left panel and "TV Card", Mouse", Keyboard", etc in the right.

When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there.

It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.

Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before? Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up: "Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server." Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:50 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:

On 11/24/2007 Bryen wrote:

...

Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?

Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:

"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."

Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.

As has been pointed out by some people the thread was about YaST, the container, NOT the modules within. YaST>Network Services IS self explanatory. If you add in the ">NIS Server" it is still self explanatory. It deals with the NIS Server settings, NOT your video settings.

...

When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there. The "help" stuff does need a little work. Never said it didn't. But

As I said in my post: that's a module issue and not a container issue.

Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings.

FYI: I have no earthly idea what an "NIS Server" is. I don't need it and don't use it. If I needed to know what was needed I would start with Google and the SuSE pages, OR I would know what was needed because it was something I needed to use. In the three, or so, years I've been using Linux full time I haven't needed to make any changes in that particular module.

Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 03:26 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:18:28 Bryen wrote:

...

Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.

I wouldn't call that an architectural change. I'd be very surprised if that feature required more than 10 lines of code (not counting the text itself, of course)

Tooltips are built into qt and don't require any substantial redesign to use

Anders

-- Madness takes its toll

Madness just took its toll :-) Okay I stand corrected. It was a bad choice of words on my part. But I was trying to emphasize the fact that help/information doesn't have to be defined as only a module's responsibility and not a feature of the control center itself. Somehow, clearly, I erred in my choice of words. But I hope the gist of what i meant was conveyed. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dňa Sunday 25 November 2007 03:26:41 Anders Johansson ste napísal:

On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:18:28 Bryen wrote:

...

Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.

I wouldn't call that an architectural change. I'd be very surprised if that feature required more than 10 lines of code (not counting the text itself, of course)

Tooltips are built into qt and don't require any substantial redesign to use

The point is that providing a useful tooltips is a huge effort - we need to write a sane paragraph for every out of our 70+ modules. This means, writing, proofreading, correcting and translating. It's sane to discuss a move like this beforehand. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org