[opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center
Hi everyone, we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design. This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center. Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center Thanks, Thomas --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
I would be curious what your initial ideas about a radical change are. Personally, I like the look and feel of Yast2, it is easy enough to get around. What I would like to see is a stronger attached documentation scheme. Perhaps a link within Yast modules to view related man pages? The whole idea of Yast is to simplify administration and enable administrators to get away from the CLI if at all possible. Although the geekier we are, the less likely we are to use Yast in the first place. :-) What frustrates me personally is the lack of documentation/explanation within Yast modules. For example, the other day, I posted a query here on the mailing list asking where I could go to get definitions of the multiple options available in Samba shares as presented by Yast. People pointed me to SWAT, which turns out to be a very cool tool to use. From a "competitive" perspective, Yast loses its audience to SWAT hands down. Should there be some flexibility, where if you click on Yast SAMBA Server, either the Yast module or the SWAT interface comes up, depending on how the administrator configures default action of a module? (i.e., Yast icon links either to a module or to an external tool?) I also wish there were "definitions" of the modules. How about something where, if you hover your mouse over a module, it will output a brief definition of the module? For example, hover over "NFS Server" and a popup appears "This is the Network File Services module. It will enable you to share your directories on multiple machines." When people, especially newbie administrators, have to google elsewhere to find definitions, that loses audience as well. I also would like to see something where, within the module, it tells you what configuration files are related to the changes you are making. Yast2 shouldn't just be a place to administrate, but also a place where administrators learn *more* about what works on their system and how it works. And last, but definitely not least, is the Help function. Although, this is probably more a fault of the module's author than the Yast design itself, some of these help screens are just downright idiotic. When you click on Help, and all it says is "To enable function, click box. To disable function, unclick box." is a good way to make us eventually ignore the help button altogether. When I'm looking for help, its not because I want to know how to click/unclick. Duhhh. It's because I want to know WHAT is that function for??? Now that I think about it. How about an additional Help sub-function where administrators can enter notes about a particular module/function? That way, in a multiple-administrator environment, we can keep better track of information related to a module. So, all in all, bottom line here. I am not sure we need to radically change the look and feel of Yast, but I do think there needs to be more built-in documentation/information methods for administrators. For just about any tool, it isn't about *how* you do something, but rather, *why* do you something. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 07:27 -0600, Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them.
Such mechanism is already there. For exmaple if you install yast2-vm (Xen configuration/installation) you'll see "Virtual Machine Manager" in section "Virtualization". The icon will start Virt-manager (/usr/bin/virt-manager) which is a non-Yast application. -- Best Regards Ladislav Slezák Yast Developer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: lslezak@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ladislav Slezak wrote:
Such mechanism is already there. For exmaple if you install yast2-vm (Xen configuration/installation) you'll see "Virtual Machine Manager" in section "Virtualization". The icon will start Virt-manager (/usr/bin/virt-manager) which is a non-Yast application. A live full text search field at the top for Yast would be great. The documentation could be organised in sections (description, tutorial, details, man pages) and accompanying info always be displayed in a browser window at the right hand side of the configuration panels.
Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
There are certain cli equivalents for yast menu choices, and it would be nice to see them somewhere on-screen being 'composed' upon choosing them in the menus. That way i would have learned that "yast online_update" takes me to the online update component immediately. Regards, mourik jan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Josef Assad wrote:
Now, how about if the various modules were "tagged", so searching for either "user" or "permissions" or "access" would bring up the relevant module? That is part of what i meant below:
Philippe Landau wrote:
A live full text search field at the top for Yast would be great. The documentation could be organised in sections (description, tutorial, details, man pages) and accompanying info always be displayed in a browser window at the right hand side of the configuration panels.
Bad? Good? Take-me-out-back-and-shoot-me-with-my-own-tagging-paradigm? Where do live ? Is this the predominant culture/attitude around you ?
Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philippe Landau wrote:
Josef Assad wrote:
Now, how about if the various modules were "tagged", so searching for either "user" or "permissions" or "access" would bring up the relevant module? That is part of what i meant below:
Yes, it certainly is a part.
Bad? Good? Take-me-out-back-and-shoot-me-with-my-own-tagging-paradigm? Where do live ? Is this the predominant culture/attitude around you ?
Dane living in the Middle East. That should explain it. :)
Kind regards Philippe
Cheers! - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHStd2Fcf72sjD2+QRAuM2AJ9wqAQ9kLcgGJRVafExR48f4z+m8QCeLMZz MEykNwxP7VTLSrUd61remdA= =apUd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 15:39 +0100, Ladislav Slezak wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them.
Such mechanism is already there. For exmaple if you install yast2-vm (Xen configuration/installation) you'll see "Virtual Machine Manager" in section "Virtualization". The icon will start Virt-manager (/usr/bin/virt-manager) which is a non-Yast application.
Not what I mean. This will locate added YaST modules. I am referring to non-YaST modules that are also part of configuring the system. If YaST is to be a central point for system configuration, I think it could at least be able to run, externally, other config tools. It would make YaST a one-stop configuration tool. Even if it only takes you elsewhere to run some config. Like KDE, GNOME, Compiz, nvidia driver settings, and so on and so on. I know that the KDE start menu has a bit of this. But that means some is in YaST, some in a KDE menu. Probably a GNOME menu as well. One needs to look all over the place for where config tools may be registered. If YaST is to be the killer config tool, it needs to expand it's horizons. Even if sometimes as an external program starter. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 15:39 +0100, Ladislav Slezak wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. Such mechanism is already there. For exmaple if you install yast2-vm (Xen configuration/installation) you'll see "Virtual Machine Manager" in section "Virtualization". The icon will start Virt-manager (/usr/bin/virt-manager) which is a non-Yast application.
Not what I mean. This will locate added YaST modules. I am referring to non-YaST modules that are also part of configuring the system. If YaST is to be a central point for system configuration, I think it could at least be able to run, externally, other config tools. It would make YaST a one-stop configuration tool. Even if it only takes you elsewhere to run some config. Like KDE, GNOME, Compiz, nvidia driver settings, and so on and so on.
Why should a host-level configuration tool be used to adjust an individual user's application???? That just doesn't make any sense. In a work place, the LAST thing Joe User wants is a system administrator having a tool which invites the admin to screw with the user's GUI settings. And if you're running KDE and can't find the KDE config tool...or running GNOME and can't find the GNOME config tool.... there's not much help for you, because you probably can't find YaST, either.
I know that the KDE start menu has a bit of this. But that means some is in YaST, some in a KDE menu. Probably a GNOME menu as well. One needs to look all over the place for where config tools may be registered.
If YaST is to be the killer config tool, it needs to expand it's horizons. Even if sometimes as an external program starter.
Well, the LIMIT of those horizons should be firmly set at the border between SYSTEM configuration, and tweaking around with individual users' config files for applications. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them.
How about a function that either a) tells you "There are x additional Yast modules available for installation or b) This Yast module needs to be upgraded.
--
Best Regards
Ladislav Slezák Yast Developer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: lslezak@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/
-- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 07:27 -0600, Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it.
Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool. If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user. And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it.
Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.
If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.
And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password. So for most users a unified control panel would be helpful. There the difference between system and user level tasks can be educationally highlighted for example with different tabs, background colour etc. Of course the password prompt would only come up when required.
Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it. Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.
If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.
And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password.
But it runs AS ROOT.
So for most users a unified control panel would be helpful.
Or hopelessly confusing... After the user changes his KDE settings via a process forked off of YaST, then he can't figure out why *HIS* KDE settings weren't changed....because the KDE settings that were changed were roots, not his normal user account.
There the difference between system and user level tasks can be educationally highlighted for example with different tabs, background colour etc. Of course the password prompt would only come up when required.
Kind regards Philippe
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it. Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.
If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.
And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password.
But it runs AS ROOT.
Open a console window and launch yast2 as a regular user, you will not be asked for roots password and will have yast2 running in a user limited mode. Ken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 13:10 +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it.
Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.
If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.
And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password.
Exactly. It is a fictional division. For example, you go into YaST to share a personal folder via NFS, not just system-wide folders. Quite often, and especially in a desktop system, the difference is blurred. KDE's config ccenter, which is of course not under the control of YaST developers, has system settings. Of course YaST cannot keep other systems from allowing system setting changes. But the developers can recognize this fact that the distinction is not clear. Perhaps what is needed is a YaDT (D for desktop) or YaUT (U for user) where all these other configs come together. But then I would suggest that some more things in YaST be moved there as they are not really system-level tools. Like bluetooth device pairings. Those must surely be per-user. But they are in YaST. Why have things like KIWI in YaST? You are not configuring the existing system. As a user you are perhaps making some other new system. IMO, a very 'user' activity. Unless we are making self-replicating/duplicating systems:)
So for most users a unified control panel would be helpful. There the difference between system and user level tasks can be educationally highlighted for example with different tabs, background colour etc. Of course the password prompt would only come up when required.
Kind regards Philippe -- Roger Oberholtzer
OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 13:10 +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
It would be nice if there was a mechanism for other configuration systems to at least be started from YaST. Like gnome / kde / compiz configurations. Not to duplicate them. But at least to find them. I am sure there are many more config programs that can be located. Perhaps this should be a YaST module more than any change to YaST itself. But I think it is a missing feature. Something simple. Just a description of what the config program configs, and a button to start it. Those are user-level configurations. YaST is a SYSTEM level tool.
If those configuration programs were invoked from YaST, they would only change root's configuration -- they wouldn't change diddly squat for the normal user.
And frankly, giving newbies the idea that a SYSTEM set-up tool should be where to go to change a USER'S customizations is just plain backwards. For most users there is no difference except root requiring entering a password.
Exactly. It is a fictional division. For example, you go into YaST to share a personal folder via NFS, not just system-wide folders. Quite often, and especially in a desktop system, the difference is blurred.
Perhaps to you, personally, but not to the kernal. The kernal makes a VERY big distinction between every user ID, and an even bigger distinction between root (UID 0) and every other user.
KDE's config ccenter, which is of course not under the control of YaST developers, has system settings. Of course YaST cannot keep other systems from allowing system setting changes. But the developers can recognize this fact that the distinction is not clear.
KDE's config center modifies the settings of the user whose current UID it is running under. IF started under UID 0 (root) then it's going to change the configuration of the the root user.... KDE's config tool doesn't know what user is at the keyboard and mouse...the only thing it knows is the UID is running under.
Perhaps what is needed is a YaDT (D for desktop) or YaUT (U for user) where all these other configs come together. But then I would suggest that some more things in YaST be moved there as they are not really system-level tools. Like bluetooth device pairings. Those must surely be per-user. But they are in YaST. Why have things like KIWI in YaST? You are not configuring the existing system. As a user you are perhaps making some other new system. IMO, a very 'user' activity. Unless we are making self-replicating/duplicating systems:)
This is just plain silly. IF I want to reconfig the KDE desktop, all I need to do is right-click on the desktop, and holy-smokes there's the option to configure the desktop. Using a system configuration tool to configure user's settings is just digging a rat's nest which will never end. How many applications are out there which have configuration files? How many thousand of those is SuSE supposed to write YaST modules for, and who chooses which apps have a module, and which don't. And when a system has other software loaded on it which is downloaded from some other site... then there will be complaints that the software is "broken" because there's not a dedicated YaST module to configure it. No developer has time to return mail to hundreds of newbies explaining why their "it's broken" complaints are problems of ignorance on their part, and nothing more -- precisely because of a precedence set by a system configuration tool team embarking on a journey into the never-ending rat-hole of trying to support configuration of user-level software.
So for most users a unified control panel would be helpful. There the difference between system and user level tasks can be educationally highlighted for example with different tabs, background colour etc. Of course the password prompt would only come up when required.
Kind regards Philippe
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design. [...]
What frustrates me personally is the lack of documentation/explanation within Yast modules. For example, the other day, I posted a query here on the mailing list asking where I could go to get definitions of the multiple options available in Samba shares as presented by Yast. People pointed me to SWAT, which turns out to be a very cool tool to use. From a "competitive" perspective, Yast loses its audience to SWAT hands down.
Should there be some flexibility, where if you click on Yast SAMBA Server, either the Yast module or the SWAT interface comes up, depending on how the administrator configures default action of a module? (i.e., Yast icon links either to a module or to an external tool?)
[...] What if Yast was to change to a web-based paradigm similar to SWAT? That way, utilities like SWAT, WebMin etc. could be seamlessly integrated into Yast. In fact, what about rewriting Yast-specific stuff as WebMin modules? That would be pretty radical... -- ====================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@optusnet.com.au ====================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 16:19, Rodney Baker wrote:
...
What if Yast was to change to a web-based paradigm similar to SWAT?
To quote Bender: "Gag unto me with a spoon."
... Rodney Baker
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
Now that I think about it. How about an additional Help sub-function where administrators can enter notes about a particular module/function? That way, in a multiple-administrator environment, we can keep better track of information related to a module.
I conjure most of what Bryen says, and would also like a sort of personal "Knowledge Base" to customise and make notes in YaST. An additional benifit could be to be able to copy these notes to a new system. :-) Al -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote:
Bryen wrote:
Now that I think about it. How about an additional Help sub-function where administrators can enter notes about a particular module/function? That way, in a multiple-administrator environment, we can keep better track of information related to a module.
I conjure most of what Bryen says, and would also like a sort of personal "Knowledge Base" to customise and make notes in YaST. An additional benifit could be to be able to copy these notes to a new system.
and make it easy to copy it to the opensuse wiki. may be also an html version of the wiki for offline use jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-11-23 at 07:27 -0600, Bryen wrote: ...
What frustrates me personally is the lack of documentation/explanation within Yast modules. For example, the other day, I posted a query here on the mailing list asking where I could go to get definitions of the multiple options available in Samba shares as presented by Yast. People pointed me to SWAT, which turns out to be a very cool tool to use. From a "competitive" perspective, Yast loses its audience to SWAT hands down.
Yes, I also would like much more documentation / help on line when configuring something with Yast. What does this, what implications, what posibilities. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSIFctTMYHG2NR9URAo/RAJ4t3f8egsxppbd3qzjf2vvrxam5EgCdEJ1g fVvizrBDpD/5dfNn7JQ7e28= =mLTb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 11:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
My own thoughts on Yast are that more help should be available in installing things like scanner backends,wireless network cards etc. 'Cryptic' messages telling the installer that additional software uploads or similar are of little use to the novice user who may very well be turned off at that point. For instance there is Linux software release by Lexmark that will operate my Z33 printer but I had to go to an outside source to find instructions on how to use it. Cannot S.A.N.E. be integrated into the scanner setup better? The list goes on. -- Regards Andrew Johnson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
I'm relatively happy with yast, but I'm no benchmark. I'm comfortable with the old ways of configuring stuff, so I don't use it as much as others might. I'm wondering though; if there's the will to fundamentally change the YaST interface, would it make sense from the perspective of inclusion and broader open source community coherence to solicit input from other distro communities? Maybe this is already being done in which case /dev/null this suggestion. But if not, it might improve YaST visibility outside opensuse/SLE, which is a good thing from many angles. JA - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHRwWeFcf72sjD2+QRArbXAJ9dBsjrI5UZNKndBQ2Ff+An50cIIQCdG9Ry eD9ewLAeyHYbsLYtiuh64TQ= =4d6A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Suggestions: 1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable. 2. On the opposite side, although this is not part of openSUSE so far, all the Novell clients for Linux, GroupWise, Teaming+Conferencing etc. that exist for Novell Open Enterprise Server 2 (OES2/NOWS), should also be possible to run locally on that server directly. This makes it possible to use a single lab workstation for testing all server functionality and services locally. 3. YaST tools to include: a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed. b) Host and client OS Manager: With experience from pre-Solaris, a host tool to customize and install, setup and manage OS images for various client types. This could be "full desktop clients", "diskless clients" (X terminals) to boot over the network from the OS server, or medium "dataless clients" just with local boot and swap from a local storage (USB/CD or other). Maybe include kiwi to create the ThinClient images. Rgds, Terje J. Hanssen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 17:58 +0100, Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.
I wholeheartedly second this one! There should definitely be a Yast central server deal, or at least a way to connect to Yast on each box from a standard remote client. Similar to Novell's ConsoleOne which uses eDirectory as the backend. ConsoleOne is portable to any administrator's desktop.
2. On the opposite side, although this is not part of openSUSE so far, all the Novell clients for Linux, GroupWise, Teaming+Conferencing etc. that exist for Novell Open Enterprise Server 2 (OES2/NOWS), should also be possible to run locally on that server directly. This makes it possible to use a single lab workstation for testing all server functionality and services locally.
Absolutely.
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
b) Host and client OS Manager: With experience from pre-Solaris, a host tool to customize and install, setup and manage OS images for various client types. This could be "full desktop clients", "diskless clients" (X terminals) to boot over the network from the OS server, or medium "dataless clients" just with local boot and swap from a local storage (USB/CD or other). Maybe include kiwi to create the ThinClient images.
Rgds, Terje J. Hanssen
-- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 17:58 +0100, Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.
I wholeheartedly second this one! There should definitely be a Yast central server deal, or at least a way to connect to Yast on each box from a standard remote client. Similar to Novell's ConsoleOne which uses eDirectory as the backend. ConsoleOne is portable to any administrator's desktop.
$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password: # yast2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>
I wholeheartedly second this one! There should definitely be a Yast central server deal, or at least a way to connect to Yast on each box from a standard remote client. Similar to Novell's ConsoleOne which uses eDirectory as the backend. ConsoleOne is portable to any administrator's desktop.
$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password:
# yast2
Even better: ssh -X remote_machine -l root password: # yast2 YaST2 GUI shows on local display in a _secure_ way. Ken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
<snip>
I wholeheartedly second this one! There should definitely be a Yast central server deal, or at least a way to connect to Yast on each box from a standard remote client. Similar to Novell's ConsoleOne which uses eDirectory as the backend. ConsoleOne is portable to any administrator's desktop. $ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password:
# yast2
Even better:
ssh -X remote_machine -l root password:
# yast2
Cool. Due to military call up for service in Baghdad, I haven't done any admin work in a network environment in a couple of years.
YaST2 GUI shows on local display in a _secure_ way.
Thanks for the info!
Ken
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X? -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in.
Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows. \ -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 11:17, James Knott wrote:
...
Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.
But only if the Windows system in question has an X server installed, right? I know there are both open-source (via Cygwin) and commercial (Hummingbird, is it?) options, but it's not exactly common for Windows users to have X capabilities. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Friday 23 November 2007 11:17, James Knott wrote:
...
Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.
But only if the Windows system in question has an X server installed, right?
I know there are both open-source (via Cygwin) and commercial (Hummingbird, is it?) options, but it's not exactly common for Windows users to have X capabilities.
Randall Schulz
Quite so. I use Xming. Works fine. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 11:25 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Friday 23 November 2007 11:17, James Knott wrote:
...
Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.
But only if the Windows system in question has an X server installed, right?
I know there are both open-source (via Cygwin) and commercial (Hummingbird, is it?) options, but it's not exactly common for Windows users to have X capabilities.
At work we're NX-clients on M$-machines. Works great! For X-desktops you can even do an "ssh -X root@machine yast2" Works even better when having ssh-keys installed... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 23, 2007 2:17 PM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in.
Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.
I suspect you've done it from Cygwin not generic Windows. (Or some other tool was used to provide basic X-Server functionality.) Personally I prefer to have an entire remote desktop, not just the ability to initiate X-based programs via the command-line. FreeNX provides you with that. I know it works from Windows, and I assume it works from Linux. OTOH, getting FreeNX running with SuSE today is a pain in the butt. Especially if you want to require the client have a secure private key. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Nov 23, 2007 2:17 PM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in.
Ssh -X will take you to a command line on a remote host, where you can then start Yast and have it appear on the local desktop. I've even done it from Windows.
I suspect you've done it from Cygwin not generic Windows. (Or some other tool was used to provide basic X-Server functionality.)
Personally I prefer to have an entire remote desktop, not just the ability to initiate X-based programs via the command-line.
FreeNX provides you with that. I know it works from Windows, and I assume it works from Linux.
OTOH, getting FreeNX running with SuSE today is a pain in the butt. Especially if you want to require the client have a secure private key.
Greg
Xming also allows a full remote desktop. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 14:02 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
Umm... gonna take a wild stab at this. Awareness of such a command line option? The whole point of Yast is to give an administrator who DOESN'T know such an option existed on the command line a way to see it visually in Yast. There's nothing wrong with doing it the CLI way, but there are people out there who don't know all there is to know about CLI options and that's where YAST comes in.
True. But the only people who have a real need for it are people with a large enough network that it's NOT going to be in their private home ... it's going to be in a position (commercial or non-profit corporation) in which someone holding the title of administrator is EXPECTED to know such things. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
I use also ssh -X. NX provides high X speed and !M NX clients for both Linux and Windows. --Terje -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 20:02:04 James Knott wrote:
Bart Whiteley wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What would that obtain that can't be had with ssh -X?
For one thing, speed. NX is much faster than anything I have ever seen for remote access. Certainly faster than ssh Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Friday 23 November 2007 19:11:57 Bart Whiteley ste napísal:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
Yes, please! I'd like to cast a vote for this as well.
What you can do already is to use VNC to start YaST, even the installation. I know, there are some nice parts of NX, but in principle, you can do all this already. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
b) Host and client OS Manager: With experience from pre-Solaris, a host tool to customize and install, setup and manage OS images for various client types. This could be "full desktop clients", "diskless clients" (X terminals) to boot over the network from the OS server, or medium "dataless clients" just with local boot and swap from a local storage (USB/CD or other). Maybe include kiwi to create the ThinClient images.
Forgot to add: c) OpenVPN server and client Beside we have Network Manager, but unhappily it looks unable to manage OpenVPN connections. In general: All YaST server and communication tools should be integrated with neccessarily setup of the Suse Firewall configuration. Rgds, Terje J. Hanssen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.
since YaST is an X windows program it ALREADY has that capability. All you have to do is change the DISPLAY environment variable to that of another X display, and then, on that display, run an xhost command to allow programs running from other machines to show their windows on that display, and YaST *WILL* do exactly what you say. The problem here is not a lack of capability with the current design, merely a lack of knowledge on your part about how to display an X windows program on a remote host.
2. On the opposite side, although this is not part of openSUSE so far, all the Novell clients for Linux, GroupWise, Teaming+Conferencing etc. that exist for Novell Open Enterprise Server 2 (OES2/NOWS), should also be possible to run locally on that server directly. This makes it possible to use a single lab workstation for testing all server functionality and services locally.
3. YaST tools to include:
a) NX server and client: Make available an easy to use YaST tool to integrate the OSS FreeNX server and client. Optional also the non-OSS but free NoMachine NX server and clients. This way it will be easy and fast to do remote login an run Xapps with speed.
b) Host and client OS Manager: With experience from pre-Solaris, a host tool to customize and install, setup and manage OS images for various client types. This could be "full desktop clients", "diskless clients" (X terminals) to boot over the network from the OS server, or medium "dataless clients" just with local boot and swap from a local storage (USB/CD or other). Maybe include kiwi to create the ThinClient images.
Rgds, Terje J. Hanssen
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.
since YaST is an X windows program it ALREADY has that capability.
All you have to do is change the DISPLAY environment variable to that of another X display, and then, on that display, run an xhost command to allow programs running from other machines to show their windows on that display, and YaST *WILL* do exactly what you say.
The problem here is not a lack of capability with the current design, merely a lack of knowledge on your part about how to display an X windows program on a remote host.
$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password:
# yast2
Well, "xhost +" has been a known security issue for a while. Indeed I left this method 15 years ago on Solaris. http://laurentschneider.com/wordpress/2007/03/xhost-is-a-huge-security-hole.... Beside it is neither necessary. A directly remote ssh login to start yast2 with X-forwarding does also work this way from a root terminal: # ssh IP_adr -X /sbin/yast2 Root Password However, my point(s) was that YaST needs a browser based interface and a fast lightweight crossplatform network client (i.e like NX). As also mentioned, Suse in general needs NX to run the whole desktop or X-apps remotely with deserved speed that competes with Citrix or RDP in the Windows world. --Terje -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable. since YaST is an X windows program it ALREADY has that capability.
All you have to do is change the DISPLAY environment variable to that of another X display, and then, on that display, run an xhost command to allow programs running from other machines to show their windows on that display, and YaST *WILL* do exactly what you say.
The problem here is not a lack of capability with the current design, merely a lack of knowledge on your part about how to display an X windows program on a remote host.
$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password:
# yast2
Well, "xhost +" has been a known security issue for a while. Indeed I left this method 15 years ago on Solaris. http://laurentschneider.com/wordpress/2007/03/xhost-is-a-huge-security-hole....
OK.. xhost [hostname]
Beside it is neither necessary. A directly remote ssh login to start yast2 with X-forwarding does also work this way from a root terminal:
# ssh IP_adr -X /sbin/yast2 Root Password
However, my point(s) was that YaST needs a browser based interface and a
NEEDS????? It would be nice in some situations... but there's FAR more important bug fixes to worry about before doing a complete overhaul of YaST (and thereby introducing NEW bugs into what is now, finally, reliable (if slow) admin software).
fast lightweight crossplatform network client (i.e like NX). As also mentioned, Suse in general needs NX to run the whole desktop or X-apps remotely with deserved speed that competes with Citrix or RDP in the Windows world.
Why? Who administrates large numbers of Unix or Linux machines by pointy-clicky for each individual host? Nobody deserving the title administrator would do that...we are PAID to figure out how to do it the fast, efficient way (i.e. write a script, store it on a common NFS filesystem shared by all hosts, and then use another script that does a remsh out to each host to get the script executed. Using YaST or any other GUI tool to make the same change to 20 differey SuSE boxes is just plain retarded.
--Terje
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 10:54 +0100, Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.
There could be another advantage: the engine or backend would be the same independent of using a gtk or qt interface, or remote (even web) interface. Then we wouldn't have the problems we currently have with the gtk/you part.
since YaST is an X windows program it ALREADY has that capability.
Not the same.
However, my point(s) was that YaST needs a browser based interface and a fast lightweight crossplatform network client (i.e like NX). As also mentioned, Suse in general needs NX to run the whole desktop or X-apps remotely with deserved speed that competes with Citrix or RDP in the Windows world.
Perhaps. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSH9atTMYHG2NR9URAgmPAJ9U3Isns9eSsQDbSXCXWjEpWOHs0wCfS1CU OboWQqOi6iAJQrzeroyMNEA= =9iXs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Terje J. Hanssen wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
Suggestions:
1. Frontend GUI client - Backend server: The YaST frontend GUI client should be easy and secure to run optional on another machine, on a LAN or remotely over Internet. This for all admin/config tasks on servers and workstations as well as installing Linux if possible. While keeping the existing VNC solution, maybe a browser based interface similar Webmin and/or some a kind of a fullfledged thin client (NX) are useable.
$ xhost + $ ssh remote_machine -l root password: # yast2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
By the way, we're all discussing Yast usage after installation. But Yast as the tool during installation of xSuse (Suse in any flavor) should also include a11y support. In the OpenSuse-GNOME team, we have discussed two ideas for a11y support: 1) Built-in functionality: During installation, users should automatically get screen magnification support. In other words, if you press a certain series of hot-keys, a screen magnifier will appear and you can proceed throughout the installation with mouse-based magnification. This is useful not just for visually-impaired people, but for anyone who may struggle with seeing what's on the screen due to resolution problems, etc. 2) During the first cycle of the Yast Installation, just after the Software selection phase but before the reboot, there should be a screen that offers users to enable a11y features of their preference. That way, when installation is finished, a11y suport is enabled. If a11y support is not enabled by the time you reach your login screen for the very first time, that user may be screwed, depending on her/his a11y needs until somebody else comes along and makes the settings for them. But if the a11y user *IS* the administrator, then Houston, we have a problem here. :-) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep. Ruben -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
I believe the stuff you would expect to find in the /etc/rc.d/ directory is in /etc/init.d/ --Jason -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
What version of the kernel? I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel. Hope this helps. -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
What version of the kernel?
I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.
it is the latest 2.6.23.8 and that is EXACLTY what I needed for the moment! Thanks Ruben
Hope this helps. -- kr
-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
What version of the kernel?
I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.
I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules. Any further thoughts? Ruben
Hope this helps. -- kr
-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben What version of the kernel?
I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.
I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules.
Any further thoughts?
Ruben
Did you just add it to the INITRD line or did you add it to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT line like I suggested above. If you add it to that line there is no need to do a modprobe because the module gets loaded every time. The script you are looking for is /etc/init.d/network, but it doesn't do a modprobe. Udev is SUPPOSED to cause the module to load when the hardware scan happens, but in newer kernels things have changed. -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 04:00:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben What version of the kernel?
I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.
I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules.
Any further thoughts?
Did you just add it to the INITRD line or did you add it to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT line like I suggested above. If you add it to that line there is no need to do a modprobe because the module gets loaded every time. The script you are looking for is /etc/init.d/network, but it doesn't do a modprobe. Udev is SUPPOSED to cause the module to load when the hardware scan happens, but in newer kernels things have changed.
Thanks. Your right. The only thing is that currently that line is a blank string which means until now that system wasn't depending on that in order to run. It's been loading the module from elsewhere. I'm going to change that line for the network card. The USB mouse, however, looks like a more complicated problem. I found on the web the following howto instruction: ~~~~ USB Human Interface Device (HID) Configuration General HID Configuration There are two options for using a USB mouse or a USB keyboard - the standalone Boot Protocol (HIDBP) way and the full featured HID driver way. The Boot Protocol way is generally inferior, and this document describes the full featured way. The Boot Protocol way may be appropriate for embedded systems and other systems with resource constraints and no real need for the full keyboard and mouse capabilities. It is important to remember that the HID driver handles those devices (or actually those interfaces on each device) that claim to comply with the Human Interface Device (HID) specification. However the HID specification doesn't say anything about what the HID driver should do with information received from a HID device, or where the information that is sent to a device comes from, since this is obviously dependent on what the device is supposed to be doing, and what the operating system is. Linux (at the operating system kernel level) supports four interfaces to a HID device - keyboard, mouse, joystick and a generic interface, known as the event interface. These are implemented by the Input device level. HID Mouse Configuration In the kernel configuration stage, you need to turn on USB Human Interface Device (HID) support in the USB support and Mouse Support in the Input core support. You don't need to worry about the screen resolution entries for a normal mouse - these are for mouse-like devices such as a graphics tablet. Do not turn on USB HIDBP Mouse support. Perform the normal kernel rebuild and installation steps. If you are installing as modules, you need to load the input.o, hid.o and mousedev.o modules. ~~~~ there is no input.o or even input.ko in the mouse or usb source tree let alone module library tree. Ruben
-- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 04:00:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben What version of the kernel?
I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.
I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules.
Any further thoughts?
Did you just add it to the INITRD line or did you add it to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT line like I suggested above. If you add it to that line there is no need to do a modprobe because the module gets loaded every time. The script you are looking for is /etc/init.d/network, but it doesn't do a modprobe. Udev is SUPPOSED to cause the module to load when the hardware scan happens, but in newer kernels things have changed.
Thanks. Your right. The only thing is that currently that line is a blank string which means until now that system wasn't depending on that in order to run. It's been loading the module from elsewhere. I'm going to change that line for the network card. The USB mouse, however, looks like a more complicated problem. I found on the web the following howto instruction:
I understand that the line may have been blank before. However, there is an incompatibility between the initialization on 9.3 and the newer kernel. There is no easy fix for that. As for the mouse, I have never had to specifically load a USB mouse driver on my 9.3 system running newer kernels. You do however have to have the kernel properly configured. How did you configure the kernel? Did you start with your existing kernel config as a baseline? You can do that by copying /boot/config-`uname -r` to srcdir/config and then do 'make oldconfig'. -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 06:46:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 04:00:17PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03:35PM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben What version of the kernel?
I believe the problem that you are having is probably the difference in the way devices are detected and initialized (ie. udev). I had similar problems after going past a certain kernel version (maybe 2.6.18) on 9.3. I was able to work around this problem by adding the device drivers for the devices to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT="capability raw1394 video1394 sis900" in /etc/sysconfig/kernel.
I added eepro100 which is a working module into the initrd line of the kernel file, but the system still isn't initializing the ethernet card prior to me running modprobe on the command line. I looked into the config files under network and still find no place where it does a probe for the card and loads modules.
Any further thoughts?
Did you just add it to the INITRD line or did you add it to the MODULES_LOADED_ON_BOOT line like I suggested above. If you add it to that line there is no need to do a modprobe because the module gets loaded every time. The script you are looking for is /etc/init.d/network, but it doesn't do a modprobe. Udev is SUPPOSED to cause the module to load when the hardware scan happens, but in newer kernels things have changed.
Thanks. Your right. The only thing is that currently that line is a blank string which means until now that system wasn't depending on that in order to run. It's been loading the module from elsewhere. I'm going to change that line for the network card. The USB mouse, however, looks like a more complicated problem. I found on the web the following howto instruction:
I understand that the line may have been blank before. However, there is an incompatibility between the initialization on 9.3 and the newer kernel. There is no easy fix for that.
As for the mouse, I have never had to specifically load a USB mouse driver on my 9.3 system running newer kernels. You do however have to have the kernel properly configured. How did you configure the kernel? Did you start with your existing kernel config as a baseline? You can do that by copying /boot/config-`uname -r` to srcdir/config and then do 'make oldconfig'.
Thanks I configured it at baseline with make menuconfig. I got the mouse working but I had to turn on the uhci-hcb module by hand. Then it worked. I'm guessing I'm going to need to put that also in the sysconf. This will blow up my ability to rapidly switch kernels, but if it works it will be worth it. Now if I could get the 5:1 sound to work on this audigy se card. I'm sure there will be further shake outs as well. Thank you for taking all this time out to help me. Ruben
-- kr
-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote: <snip>
Thanks
I configured it at baseline with make menuconfig. I got the mouse working but I had to turn on the uhci-hcb module by hand. Then it worked. I'm guessing I'm going to need to put that also in the sysconf. This will blow up my ability to rapidly switch kernels, but if it works it will be worth it.
Now if I could get the 5:1 sound to work on this audigy se card.
I'm sure there will be further shake outs as well.
Thank you for taking all this time out to help me.
Ruben
Ruben, If you would have started by copying the existing config and done make oldconfig you would probably have much less trouble keeping existing devices working. You should not have to add any of the USB drivers to the sysconfig. At least that has been my experience. And please don't be discouraged by the arrogant and even rude behavior of SOME others on the list. -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:37:44AM -0600, K.R. Foley wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote: <snip>
Thanks
I configured it at baseline with make menuconfig. I got the mouse working but I had to turn on the uhci-hcb module by hand. Then it worked. I'm guessing I'm going to need to put that also in the sysconf. This will blow up my ability to rapidly switch kernels, but if it works it will be worth it.
Now if I could get the 5:1 sound to work on this audigy se card.
I'm sure there will be further shake outs as well.
Thank you for taking all this time out to help me.
Thanks for the response and the help. I've been in flame wars for nearly a decade now and I doubt that any troll will discourage me from trying to get good information. Two things I've learned about mailing lists over the years: First: Not all posters are equally knowledgable and a good background is the first step to deciphering good information from good intentioned background noise. Secondly: There is always someone somewhere ready to make an unproductive and obnoxious comment. Its best not to feed the trolls. As for the comment, that would be great advise, unfortunely I blew away the old kernels source code in order to make room for the new kernel. So this very good recommendation is a day late and a dollar shot. However, if you have a .config file and email it to me as an attachment, I'd apreciate it. One of the advantages, however, of doing a new kernel is to pair this kernel down. SuSE is a kitchen sink :) Ruben Ruben
Ruben
Ruben,
If you would have started by copying the existing config and done make oldconfig you would probably have much less trouble keeping existing devices working. You should not have to add any of the USB drivers to the sysconfig. At least that has been my experience.
And please don't be discouraged by the arrogant and even rude behavior of SOME others on the list.
-- kr
-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
Ruben Your question is related to the thread's subject "Redesign of the YaST Control Center", how, exactly? Don't be a thread hijacker! If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific "Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. This will limit your audience. Some mail readers, like mutt, allow the user to sort by thread and then hide messages in a thread by folding the thread. Folks who do that will never see your message." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 10:35:15 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:
If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific
If you don't mind, using openSUSE resource that is relevant for this mail list is more appropriate: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
On Friday 23 November 2007 10:35:15 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:
If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific
If you don't mind, using openSUSE resource that is relevant for this mail list is more appropriate: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
Thanks. Same rule still applies: <http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette#Changing_the_subject_without_opening_a_new_thread> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 23:35 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
Ruben Your question is related to the thread's subject "Redesign of the YaST Control Center", how, exactly?
Don't be a thread hijacker!
If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific
"Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. This will limit your audience. Some mail readers, like mutt, allow the user to sort by thread and then hide messages in a thread by folding the thread. Folks who do that will never see your message."
Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for? -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:10:44 -0600 Bryen <suseROCKS@bryen.com> wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 23:35 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
Ruben Your question is related to the thread's subject "Redesign of the YaST Control Center", how, exactly?
Don't be a thread hijacker!
If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific
"Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. This will limit your audience. Some mail readers, like mutt, allow the user to sort by thread and then hide messages in a thread by folding the thread. Folks who do that will never see your message."
Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?
I've seen the subject line go from this; "Re: [opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center" to "Re: [opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3" on this very thread. I think maybe Aaron was trying to refer to that. Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 07:18 -0600, Steve Jeppesen wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:10:44 -0600 Bryen <suseROCKS@bryen.com> wrote:
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 23:35 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Ruben Safir wrote:
Hello
I've update my kernel to get it to function with new hardware and the modules for my eepro100 and USB mouse aren't working now. Where is the scripts that initiate these things so that I fix this. It doesn't seem to be in the /etc/rc.d/ directory, or at least I can't seem to find it with Grep.
Ruben
Ruben Your question is related to the thread's subject "Redesign of the YaST Control Center", how, exactly?
Don't be a thread hijacker!
If you want to start a new thread, then START A NEW THREAD.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific
"Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. This will limit your audience. Some mail readers, like mutt, allow the user to sort by thread and then hide messages in a thread by folding the thread. Folks who do that will never see your message."
Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?
I've seen the subject line go from this; "Re: [opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center" to "Re: [opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3" on this very thread. I think maybe Aaron was trying to refer to that.
Steve
As long as the poster changed the subject line, I don't care how she or he created the email in the first place. Some people here seem intent on attacking others for their way of doing things without realizing what's going on. For example, I could attack you because you clearly did a "Reply All" instead of "Reply to List", thus causing me to receive a double copy of your email, thus cluttering my mailbox. However, I'm mature enough to realize that your email client (Claws) may not support a "Reply to list" function. Believe me, I got attacked early on after joining this list when I didn't know I had a "Reply to list" function in my Evolution client. All day long, that new thread was posted and discussed upon. No one seemed to have any objections to it. Then in the middle of the night, long afterwards after multiple threads, Aaron came along and complained. His complaint cluttered my mailbox needlessly. Instead of attacking, he could have advised. People are so much more receptive to adjustment when advised rather than attacked. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:39:31 -0600 Bryen <suseROCKS@bryen.com> wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 07:18 -0600, Steve Jeppesen wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:10:44 -0600 Bryen <suseROCKS@bryen.com> wrote:
I've seen the subject line go from this; "Re: [opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center" to
originally posted by Thomas Goettlicher
"Re: [opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3"
originated by Ruben Safir, but didn't appear to have anything to do with the OP's post
on this very thread. I think maybe Aaron was trying to refer to that.
Steve
As long as the poster changed the subject line, I don't care how she or he created the email in the first place. Some people here seem intent on attacking others for their way of doing things without realizing what's going on.
I would agree that attacking anybody isn't right, but thread hijacking is wrong. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Bryen <suseROCKS@bryen.com> [11-24-07 08:43]:
As long as the poster changed the subject line, I don't care how she or he created the email in the first place.
then *you* are ignorant of threading capable mail clients and searching archives!
Some people here seem intent on attacking others for their way of doing things without realizing what's going on.
Which *you* are doing since you lack knowledge of the situation.
For example, I could attack you because you clearly did a "Reply All" instead of "Reply to List", thus causing me to receive a double copy of your email, thus cluttering my mailbox.
which you *should* do
However, I'm mature enough to realize that your email client (Claws) may not support a "Reply to list" function. Believe me, I got attacked early on after joining this list when I didn't know I had a "Reply to list" function in my Evolution client.
yes, it is so difficult as to be beyond many to edit out the incorrect reply addresses :^)
All day long, that new thread was posted and discussed upon. No one seemed to have any objections to it. Then in the middle of the night, long afterwards after multiple threads, Aaron came along and complained. His complaint cluttered my mailbox needlessly.
you are *ranting* now.
Instead of attacking, he could have advised. People are so much more receptive to adjustment when advised rather than attacked.
join the crowd - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHSD8dClSjbQz1U5oRApXGAKCB0YIfZcB6ICi/mdcNJV/bgKcALwCgqxFd VD6TyK2WD++kUeL5vCwY3Wk= =K1Gz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 06:10 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?
No, you are mistaken. While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSEj2tTMYHG2NR9URAgFzAKCTmUPhlXYwDPKYxEERI+LA4crjhgCghd8b wzriBeQem+C8wNx7gMFjGzw= =HUx/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 06:10 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?
No, you are mistaken.
While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Is there anything in the netiquette about arrogance and elitism scaring off the very people these lists exist for? -- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 November 2007 07:57, K.R. Foley wrote:
...
Is there anything in the netiquette about arrogance and elitism scaring off the very people these lists exist for?
It's a hard balance to strike. If no one corrects things like thread hijacking, inappropriate top-posting or insufficient (or nonexistant) quoted material trimming, the overall quality of the list deteriorates. Not to sound like a grizzled oldtimer (whether or not I actually am), the active community on this list isn't nearly as fastidious about these things as it was a few years ago. There are better and worse ways to ride herd on the newbies, but the job must be done.
-- kr
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 07:57, K.R. Foley wrote:
...
Is there anything in the netiquette about arrogance and elitism scaring off the very people these lists exist for?
It's a hard balance to strike. If no one corrects things like thread hijacking, inappropriate top-posting or insufficient (or nonexistant) quoted material trimming, the overall quality of the list deteriorates. Not to sound like a grizzled oldtimer (whether or not I actually am), the active community on this list isn't nearly as fastidious about these things as it was a few years ago.
There are better and worse ways to ride herd on the newbies, but the job must be done.
I agree totally. However, part of netiquette is also being courteous. Not always, but more times than not people that jump so hard on newbies don't have much else to offer. I have been around for a long time, although not on this list. One common thing I hear from many newbies and non-newbies alike is that they are afraid to ask for help because they are afraid of being raked over the coals. I have even seen TOO MANY of these folks go back to windoze because of being discouraged by this sort of thing.
-- kr
Randall Schulz
-- kr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 November 2007 17:07, Randall R Schulz wrote:
There are better and worse ways to ride herd on the newbies, but the job must be done.
Unfortunately, the guy that hijacked the thread isn't a newbie by any means. Do a google on his name. He's been around for ages. You'd think he'd know how to act. This isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last. I added him to the bitbucket a long time ago. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 6:36pm up 100 days 23:08, 5 users, load average: 2.21, 2.15, 2.10 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 04:53:24PM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 06:10 -0600, Bryen wrote:
Aaron... what in heck are you talking about??? The subject is Kernel Update and USB Mouse as is plainly clear if you can read the subject line here. What are you jumping on the guy's case for?
No, you are mistaken.
While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.
I hijacked my own thread! ROFL Ruben
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76
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-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 14:55 -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
No, you are mistaken.
While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.
I hijacked my own thread! ROFL
No, you hijacked Bryen's email: 15228 07-11-23 11:53 Bryen (6320) . |-> [opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center 15229 07-11-23 13:00 Ruben Safir (5400) . | |-[opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3 In your email where you first asked about 9.3 kernel: Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:00:19 -0500 From: Ruben Safir To: hangout@mrbrklyn.com Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3 If you look at your own headers inside: Message-ID: <20071123180019.GA18713@www2.mrbrklyn.com> References: <1195816660.30586.54.camel@g168.suse.de> <1195840395.5152.43.camel@desktop.bryen.info> In-Reply-To: <1195840395.5152.43.camel@desktop.bryen.info> You see that you are in fact answering to an email from Bryen, replacing the subject line with another: Message-Id: <1195840395.5152.43.camel@desktop.bryen.info> That's a full blown intentional thread hijack. You want more proofs? Ok, browse the archive here: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2007-11/threads10.html> Search for your own subject "Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3". Look carefully: * Re: [opensuse] Redesign of YaST Control Center, Bryen (Fri Nov 23 17:51:48 GMT 2007) * [opensuse] Kernel Update and USB Mouse on SuSE 9.3, Ruben Safir (Fri Nov 23 17:58:59 GMT 2007) Your email is archived as an answer to the email from Bryen. ¿Still don't believe it? Here, go to Bryen's email: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2007-11/msg02422.html> Find the "Follow Ups" link. What do we see there? Your's: Follow Ups * Ruben Safir Go to your email now: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2007-11/msg02425.html> Find the "references". What do we see? Bryen's email - thus your email is a hijack, not a new email. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSIpYtTMYHG2NR9URAragAJ9Eq3jIy7sRImAFRvfHebnKAW7SFQCeIyjy 8mOwokGGJyuztRzIVOSqFQQ= =XDAe -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:32:21PM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 14:55 -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
No, you are mistaken.
While Ruben posted a legitimate question, he hijacked a thread to do so, and that is against netiquette.
I hijacked my own thread! ROFL
No, you hijacked Bryen's email:
Thanks I'll keep it in mind. -- http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://fairuse.nylxs.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME" "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society." "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.< You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." © Copyright for the Digital Millennium -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- Hi Thomas,
Firstly, If particular hardware is not detected, the installer should not automagically (!) install neither the software for it, nor the yast modules for them. Having said that, it might be advisable of have an "shaded-out" placeholder icon, to indicate a newby-sysop that a yast-module does exist, but is not installed yet. Secondly, about the data-config: not only keep it xml, but also expand to creation for generating and validating (!!) xml-files, They are vital for cloning, auto-install, and the generation for XEN-images. Finally, most important (and difficult, if even possible): Think about a yast-yast. With this I mean a yast-module for creating.... yast-modules. Eventhough i was at the yast-workshops at Fosdem in 2006, i still think its a daunting task to create nice, practical, consistant yast-modules. A framework that pre-defines the back/cancel/next buttons with the non-graphical ALT-character code for you. If something like that exist, the community might create the nice-to-have but not-so-very-often to be used for bonding, gpg, smartcards, ssh-key-management, mysql, ser, asterisk, PAM-config or whatever. Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 23, 2007 6:17 AM, Thomas Goettlicher <thomas.goettlicher@suse.de> wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
I would like to see a high-level "ROLES" choice. Under that you would have more human readable Desktop and Server role descriptions. ie. Under Server instead of "Samba Server" like today, you would have "Windows Compatible File Server". Then one of the actions would eventually be "Protect files via Anti-Virus" which would case ClamAV or similar to be installed. I like someone else's suggestion that each time you make a selection from these more friendly menu's it would be nice to have an "Experts Explanation" button. If clicked it would explain in more technical terms what was about to be installed and configured. Thanks Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 03:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see. All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories. And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day? I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake, but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it. -- Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Robert Smits wrote:
On Friday 23 November 2007 03:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see.
All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories.
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Is there reason to believe that YAST downgrades the network connection when it's downloading updates? NO? Well, then it's picking up information from the repositories as fast as it can be pulled out of the network card.
And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day?
I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake,
Exactly. It amounts to nothing more than wasted effort, when there are more important things to work on. I'm so glad I didn't install 10.3, because it appears that the SuSE team released the product WAY before it should have been. The sorts of problems reported on this list are more of what I expect in a Beta-version or (at most) an x.0 release.
but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
It amounts to nothing more than wasted effort, when there are more important things to work on.
It's good you pointed that out, because it's certainly not possible for different people to work on different things at the same time, and of course everyone is perfectly skilled to work on the things you consider important. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber wrote:
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
It amounts to nothing more than wasted effort, when there are more important things to work on.
It's good you pointed that out, because it's certainly not possible for different people to work on different things at the same time, and of course everyone is perfectly skilled to work on the things you consider important.
With the list of problems in 10.3 that are posted to this list, it's quite obvious that there aren't enough developers taking care to make sure that the packages are actually RIGHT in the first place. So the proposal is to take people OFF of getting the software working, so that perfectly good software can be totally overhauled, rather than just adding a few tweaks. That doesn't make ANY sense, unless you're someone who's addicted to "new New NEW!!!!!" all the time. But in the business community especially, that just plain old won't cut it. When the broken stuff is fixed THEN worry about doing a complete rewrite of YaST. YaST isn't broken... all it needs is a little added functionality here and there...but NO CHANGES to what is already working. YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)
-- Benjamin Weber
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)
No-one suggested a complete re-write. Perhaps next time you could take the trouble to read the entire /subject line/ of the proposal before you reply with flames. This is a proposal from the usability team to re-organise the existing modules into more logical groups, and improve the control-centre (the shell that lists the available modules) user interface so that people can find what they are looking for. This has nothing whatsoever to-do with re-writing YaST. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 16:39 +0000, Benji Weber wrote:
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)
No-one suggested a complete re-write. Perhaps next time you could take the trouble to read the entire /subject line/ of the proposal before you reply with flames.
This is a proposal from the usability team to re-organise the existing modules into more logical groups, and improve the control-centre (the shell that lists the available modules) user interface so that people can find what they are looking for.
This has nothing whatsoever to-do with re-writing YaST.
I agree. As I stated in my first post, the overall current design of the UI, to me, is fine. But I think, even if everyone has gone off-topic and focused on modules, etc. then that is also valuable information for the OP. Sometimes when you do a survey, you get completely different results than expected. That's the beauty, and downfall of surveys. The beauty of this survey was that it was an open-ended survey, rather than a fixed-form survey. Too often I start to answer a survey, only to find that the questions and possible answers are extremely limited and I know that any answer I give, however close to reality it is, may not give the surveyor the proper picture, and I usually stop at that point. My guess is, Novell will take note that people are focusing on modules and not UI and making the proper assumption that it is modules that need work, not UI. At least, I hope so. I don't think people were wrong to go off-topic, and I think Novell is pleased to see great discussion, however the path it has taken from its original purpose. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber wrote:
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)
No-one suggested a complete re-write. Perhaps next time you could take the trouble to read the entire /subject line/ of the proposal before you reply with flames.
Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes. He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"
This is a proposal from the usability team to re-organise the existing modules into more logical groups, and improve the control-centre (the shell that lists the available modules) user interface so that people can find what they are looking for.
That would be tweaking, not a "radical new design"
This has nothing whatsoever to-do with re-writing YaST.
Your reading comprehension need work.
-- Benjamin Weber
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 24, 2007 2:54 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
Benji Weber wrote:
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)
The point is they wont, benjamin will just tell that to you again, despite its written in th first message of this thread.
Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.
Obviously you are ignoring the first post entirely
That would be tweaking, not a "radical new design"
From the original post: "we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design."
Translating for those less gifted about grey matter density: they want to redesign the yast ****CONTROL***** *****CENTER*****. This doesnt mean yast will be re-written.
This has nothing whatsoever to-do with re-writing YaST.
Your reading comprehension need work.
heh, funny boy By the way, this thread has more than 50 messages, almost all offtopic, therefore its not useful, and can be safely ignored by everyone. Lots of "experts" talking.... Marcio --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Your reading comprehension need work. Seems to me you would like to be right first and foremost.
ALL OF YOU Also please stop shouting.
Thank you Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
[Philippe Landau]
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Your reading comprehension need work. Seems to me you would like to be right first and foremost.
ALL OF YOU Also please stop shouting.
Hi, Philippe, and everybody. I'm skimming over the current exchange. A troll is someone who usually writes to provoke emotive reactions, not a real exchange of ideas. We should calm down ourselves and avoid replying to trolls, as this yields nowhere and only raises the level of noise. It is usually effective in the long run, for getting rid of trolls, to merely ignore them. Back to serious things! :-) The original message refers to a description of the methodology used in search for a redesign of the UI, as described here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center/Card_Sort_Study At least from my viewpoint, this is a fairly original approach to the design of UIs, which is quite interesting, and thought triggering... Someone once wrote that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee". I wonder a bit what a horse designed by statistics methods would look like :-). Clustering in itself, while undoubtedly powerful in some areas, is not always considered as the best way to reveal structure (loosely interpreting Venables and Ripley, MASS, 4th edition, p. 316). Moreover, getting as far as computing averages of clustering results is intriguing, but I wonder if it may be so significant (I do not know!). I once read that the "average human" (average liver, average hearth, average limbs, average weight, average height, etc.) just does not exist, it could not even be assembled, it would not survive. :-) The experience described above could yield good paths for ideas, but in such areas, this has often been demonstrated in successful projects, best results are usually obtained under the direction of a single architect, which of course should be competent and visionary enough. I guess (or at least hope) that the request for input that has been launched here, is meant to feed the thoughts of such an architect. If he wants to equally please everybody, it is likely that the resulting UI would be a bit "drab", and not raise the enthusiasm of good art works. UIs became important and are so nowadays. So, revising an UI might be a radical change, even if the underlying engine is rather stable. Besides, as long as the UI gives proper and intelligent access to a good engine, nice changes in UI design could not only be fairly entertaining for old timers, but also good selling points for newcomers. -- François Pinard http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.
He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"
for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI" jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 07:40 +0100, jdd wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.
He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"
for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"
Not for me. A change of the UI is just an external, triffle, change. He said "radical", so it means everything, nothing kept from the original: not the ui, not the engine. Nothing. Everything new. Radical! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSWVitTMYHG2NR9URAsk/AJ9YO/K+N7skPZ557OVJJhe/BYOndgCeMBxf PeGBaFXpoV8o2Ofhqg14SJ4= =Z1uz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 06:06:35 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 07:40 +0100, jdd wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.
He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"
for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"
Not for me. A change of the UI is just an external, triffle, change. He said "radical", so it means everything, nothing kept from the original: not the ui, not the engine. Nothing. Everything new. Radical!
Carlos, just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST. The YCC itself is nothing more than user interface (UI): - present user with options, - take input and - call worker that will do actual job. That are tasks that by definition belong to user interface. They want complete new presetation, graphics and organization of groups, not only to shuffle groups of tasks, for instance moving network devices in hardware group. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 07:58 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"
for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"
Not for me. A change of the UI is just an external, triffle, change. He said "radical", so it means everything, nothing kept from the original: not the ui, not the engine. Nothing. Everything new. Radical!
Carlos,
just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST.
Not knowing how yast works internally, the YCC is for me, Yast. I'm unable to make such a thin distinction. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSdmytTMYHG2NR9URAhBwAJ9ltHVqfjnFc1p/0UaUCvu+4NZ/ogCfWNE1 0eHLRCnrz2qDJo74GjoJzAU= =6smq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos,
just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST.
Not knowing how yast works internally, the YCC is for me, Yast. I'm unable to make such a thin distinction.
Thats precisely why you should listen to the people who knows better, like the guy pointed to you, instead of insisting in error pattern. Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 22:21 -0200, Druid wrote:
just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST.
Not knowing how yast works internally, the YCC is for me, Yast. I'm unable to make such a thin distinction.
Thats precisely why you should listen to the people who knows better, like the guy pointed to you, instead of insisting in error pattern.
which is... ? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHShdqtTMYHG2NR9URAsd8AJ9CB1onHyT+L5XAkDtqz9fhjqm9FQCcD91T rSbqmhzHHsJgYqHEe+gWQ2g= =FYMp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
just check first mail in thread, it is word about YaST Control Center (YCC), not all of the YaST.
Not knowing how yast works internally, the YCC is for me, Yast. I'm unable to make such a thin distinction.
Thats precisely why you should listen to the people who knows better, like the guy pointed to you, instead of insisting in error pattern.
which is... ?
Which is making this thread even longer wiht 99% of noise, and the whole discussion about how yast "should be rewritten". Regards Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 22:55 -0200, Druid wrote:
Thats precisely why you should listen to the people who knows better, like the guy pointed to you, instead of insisting in error pattern.
which is... ?
Which is making this thread even longer wiht 99% of noise, and the whole discussion about how yast "should be rewritten".
Well, we are precisely talking about how YaST should be rewritten. That's what they asked for, and that's what they are getting - and if the route we are taking is not to the liking of Novell/SuSE people, it is Novell/SuSE people who should say so - not you, and not me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSiHVtTMYHG2NR9URAqd9AJ9W4jAGiP/A2WBYkIjoWTWCSXzRMQCfQAtg N4vlfDWc3JML+Bv3mtY4z2M= =/BtG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Well, we are precisely talking about how YaST should be rewritten.
Thats the problem. Thats exactly what this topic is not about. Its you that misinterpreted it.
That's what they asked for,
No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.
and that's what they are getting - and if the route
They are getting because people misread the OP. Again, I thought we have been through that some posts ago in this very same thread. Now its ok to misread the thread, but insisting on that after it was pointed the issue is pointless.
we are taking is not to the liking of Novell/SuSE people, it is Novell/SuSE people who should say so - not you, and not me.
SUSE people are tired of the silly/endless discussions in this freakshow list that happens from time to time, please believe me. We all are. Or at least most of the people are. Im just pointing again for the 4th or 5th time the bizarre topic driftness that happened in this topic. Please, collaborate cutting down the noise. Right now this thread with hundred something emails is unreadable and unuseful, it has nothing to do with the original idea. Regards Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 23:43 -0200, Druid wrote:
That's what they asked for,
No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.
Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the noise. Nor will I try to convince you on changing your opinion or not saying it. If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSjWRtTMYHG2NR9URArdJAKCD+ctPnng5jmk7OFTQw7LupIOchwCdEnGf 6yk1nVslMLO+K0spBjvOkGQ= =TQkO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.
Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the
Yeah, its a big conspiracy
If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any
So if nobody explicitly tells you not to jump in a jet engine in full throttle, that means you should do it, right? Stop acting like a kid. Read the original post. Just read it once.
change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so.
And you have the freedom to make a better discussion. Its unbelievable that you are either playing dumb or ignoring this to cause noise, which I dont understand why. I cant understand that its not crystal clear that this 120 messages in a thread is pure mess. Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 01:04 -0200, Druid wrote:
No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.
Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the
Yeah, its a big conspiracy
If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any
So if nobody explicitly tells you not to jump in a jet engine in full throttle, that means you should do it, right? Stop acting like a kid. Read the original post. Just read it once.
change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so.
And you have the freedom to make a better discussion. Its unbelievable that you are either playing dumb or ignoring this to cause noise, which I dont understand why. I cant understand that its not crystal clear that this 120 messages in a thread is pure mess.
Marcio
And I can't understand why you presume to assume it is okay to speak for the rest of us. I've been watching this altercation between you and Carlos and you both are free to speak your opinions however you see fit. But I find it offensive that you have seen fit to say "all have agreed" and that speaks volumes that you have assumed to speak on my behalf. Please, express your opinions and statements as your own, not as mine. Some of us think that this has been a good and interesting debate and do not consider this as a mess. And some think the opposite. However, you are free to have the opposite opinion. But please, please... do not speak on my behalf again. Your constant bickering with Carlos is what has made this thread grow even longer. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
And I can't understand why you presume to assume it is okay to speak for the rest of us. I've been watching this altercation between you and Carlos and you both are free to speak your opinions however you see fit.
Bryen, Give me a break, give all of us a break. Stop this popularity contest, and rebel student attitude, mr yuppie/anarchist/hippie revolution. The point here is simple, some people misunderstood the topic, others pointed it, now just because people like you and others have too much ego and you just cant say you are wrong and move on, you come with this attitude "oh dont criticise me, oh dont speak for me, oh Im so free, oh I wont stop because you cant tell me what to do, lalalalala".
But I find it offensive that you have seen fit to say "all have agreed" and that speaks volumes that you have assumed to speak on my behalf. Please, express your opinions and statements as your own, not as mine.
Big cup of grow up for you both.
Some of us think that this has been a good and interesting debate and do not consider this as a mess. And some think the opposite. However, you
Its a mess in the exact measure that the topic drift in complete offtopic and the guy from the original post will not even be able to find the infomation, and he will be frustrated having to search tru all this mess of offtopic. I know I would. There are two things there are facts, and you cant claim they arent: i) this thread is a mess ii) the original topic was about redesigning the control center not yast, its written in the first email. Discussing if this is or is not the topic is like discussing if the water is wet, or if the sky is blue
are free to have the opposite opinion. But please, please... do not speak on my behalf again. Your constant bickering with Carlos is what has made this thread grow even longer.
Protest just for the sake of protest is silly. Stop this "oh I defend the freedom and ideals and love and mankind development". The point here is not human rights, censoring and freespeech, so stop the drama. And since I know you will ask in another mail whats the point, I will answer: the point here is having people use a bit of common sense to make things move, instead of having their huge ego in the way, just because somebody called his/her attention, or because one cant admit he is wrong or one cant pass one answer in a thread, just because he needs deeply to show off how l33t/old-school/long-time-linux-user/uber-admin in the list. And lots of people did exactly that in this thread, and yes it is a big mess, and by now its almost a waste of time. At the beginning it went offttopic discussing the design of a how yast would be re-written. Then after some show-offfs of people showing how this should be done, it went to remote access, translation of manuals to french, metadiscussing if the topic is about design or not, then about defining what is design. Now that people pointed out its way offtopic, you started with the new topic of saying you can speak whatever you want, just because you are not sensible enough to see its destroying the topic. I cant see whats next... And I will not reply, because I see some people would like this shit to go on forever, because you dont give a damn about the damn redesign. You only give a damn about your cool factor, your "internet image", and defending the rights of people to say anything. Too bad nobody gives a damn about getting things done or make opensuse is better. Its always about me, me and me, and my ego, and doing whatever I tell people to do, because oh I am so good. And yeah, you can say Im rude. Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Druid wrote:
And yeah, you can say Im rude.
Marcio
I don't think anyone's really been rude, though there has been a bit of an expectations mismatch. It really _is_ about just the control center UI (that's been pretty clear), but the discussion brought up some topics around yast which weren't to the straight and narrow point. So, apart from a few (light) bruises, I consider that nothing's lost; any time you get feedback from passionate users you're doing great (people in proprietary s/w shops go to great pains and spend much to get half the user feedback we get in here). Correspondingly, I think it's very reasonable for us to go something like "oh, okay, so the community has something to say about YaST so let's make that another thread". And on the other end, "oh whoops, ok you guys meant the UI only. K, I'll hop on that other thread". Now, back to the control center. Here's an idea: the use case is, someone just installed suse, heard much about the control center, and wants to dive in and use it for task X, say setting permissions. In windows, this was called "user management" and in debian it was called (say) "access control". So, they wade around the entries a bit, opening the various modules until they find what they're looking for. Now, how about if the various modules were "tagged", so searching for either "user" or "permissions" or "access" would bring up the relevant module? Bad? Good? Take-me-out-back-and-shoot-me-with-my-own-tagging-paradigm? JA - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHSst3Fcf72sjD2+QRAtXiAJ0XbVFwJS7UtgDKR0R/A/BVYRRZ9gCgo7tv ekZ0ayb6ImPvISx4n1TXOGI= =/Xck -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Druid wrote:
No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really. Im sorry, but that's your opinion. I (and others) think different, and trying to convince me not to give my opinion on YaST is adding to the
Yeah, its a big conspiracy
Consisting of you ;-)
If they (SUSE) say that they are not interested in nothing but UI redesign, then I'll shut up. Or perhaps not, because I don't want any
So if nobody explicitly tells you not to jump in a jet engine in full throttle, that means you should do it, right? Stop acting like a kid. Read the original post. Just read it once.
I did. It called for "a radical new design". Anybody who has ever written software would evaluate that to mean a complete replacement of the code, except for a few low-level functions which are several function-calls beneath a mouse-click.
change in Yast's UI, and I have the freedom to say so.
And you have the freedom to make a better discussion. Its unbelievable that you are either playing dumb or ignoring this to cause noise, which I dont understand why. I cant understand that its not crystal clear that this 120 messages in a thread is pure mess.
blah blah blah.
Marcio
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Druid wrote:
Well, we are precisely talking about how YaST should be rewritten.
Thats the problem. Thats exactly what this topic is not about. Its you that misinterpreted it.
That's what they asked for,
No, I think we had all agreed that no, not really.
and that's what they are getting - and if the route
They are getting because people misread the OP. Again, I thought we have been through that some posts ago in this very same thread. Now its ok to misread the thread, but insisting on that after it was pointed the issue is pointless.
we are taking is not to the liking of Novell/SuSE people, it is Novell/SuSE people who should say so - not you, and not me.
SUSE people are tired of the silly/endless discussions in this freakshow list that happens from time to time, please believe me. We all are. Or at least most of the people are.
Translation: Marco is sick of it.
Im just pointing again for the 4th or 5th time the bizarre topic driftness that happened in this topic. Please, collaborate cutting down the noise. Right now this thread with hundred something emails is unreadable and unuseful, it has nothing to do with the original idea.
It's all pertinent to the topic (other that the guy wondering about USB mice and the kernal...WTF was he thinking?)
Regards
Marcio
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jdd wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Obviously you're ignoring the original post in which the words "radical new design" were used to characterize the scope of changes.
He didn't say "changing the appearance of the UI"
for me, "design" is exactly "changing the appearance of the UI"
Then your English comprehension could use some improvement. [That's not a slam, it's just a comment] "radical new design" implies drastic, sweeping changes of the entire code, most likely involving throwing out all of the old code and replacing it with entirely new code. In the context of software, how is a trivial change in the appearance of the UI a "radical new" anything? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 24, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Benji Weber wrote:
On 24/11/2007, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
It amounts to nothing more than wasted effort, when there are more important things to work on. It's good you pointed that out, because it's certainly not possible for different people to work on different things at the same time, and of course everyone is perfectly skilled to work on the things you consider important.
With the list of problems in 10.3 that are posted to this list, it's quite obvious that there aren't enough developers taking care to make sure that the packages are actually RIGHT in the first place. So the proposal is to take people OFF of getting the software working, so that perfectly good software can be totally overhauled, rather than just adding a few tweaks.
That doesn't make ANY sense, unless you're someone who's addicted to "new New NEW!!!!!" all the time.
But in the business community especially, that just plain old won't cut it.
When the broken stuff is fixed THEN worry about doing a complete rewrite of YaST. YaST isn't broken... all it needs is a little added functionality here and there...but NO CHANGES to what is already working.
YaST is CURRENTLY DEBUGGED. What's the point of doing a whole re-write, and then having to debug it again (which if I remember correctly, took about a year)
-- Benjamin Weber
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OK, well, we should wait years until the majority of the bugs are fixed in the OS and THEN add new features? I don't see many issues on the mailing list except for those caused by users trying to install bleeding-edge, unstable features on their 10.3 system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel. Checking for changes could be done in seconds.
Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel.
So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies). Downloading in parallel only speeds up communication when the different files being downloaded are on completely different PHYSICAL disk drives. That's not very well likely for the update files on a repository.
Checking for changes could be done in seconds.
It's possible that there could be some optimizations there... but I doubt it... checking for updates involves a large amount of data to download -- or else risk that a foul-up on one check means that you never see that package as having an update until the NEXT update AFTER THAT comes around. I'll stick with the fool-proof way of getting all the version/update info every time. It's not THAT long of a wait.
Kind regards Philippe
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On Nov 24, 2007 10:31 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis00@hotpop.com> wrote:
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel.
So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies).
Downloading in parallel only speeds up communication when the different files being downloaded are on completely different PHYSICAL disk drives. That's not very well likely for the update files on a repository.
I doubt very much that we are disk limited during the startup of YOU or Yast-Software-Management. Those both take a couple minutes to initiate (from my office with a T-1 connection). During that time they seem to be interrogating one repository at a time in a serial fashion. Doing that in parallel does seem like it could improve things. The bigger issue is I suspect these 2 modules were not the focus of the desired redesign. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote: Checking for changes could be done in seconds. I'll stick with the fool-proof way of getting all
Philippe Landau wrote: the version/update info every time. It's not THAT long of a wait.
josuseshi:/home/josef # time zypper lu <snip> real 34m22.809s user 1m7.656s sys 0m5.856s - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHSE1kFcf72sjD2+QRAtYUAJ4j4JOVNOx+I317G6QpESPF8SKLFACfYvMS 5TmG8ZmCutXD13FlaUzXGt4= =aP8d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel.
So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies). Downloading several files at the same time is not a challenge. If you want to go down to hardware level, much is done with
Aaron Kulkis wrote: the help of RAM :-)
Downloading in parallel only speeds up communication when the different files being downloaded are on completely different PHYSICAL disk drives. That's not very well likely for the update files on a repository.
Checking for changes could be done in seconds.
It's possible that there could be some optimizations there... but I doubt it... checking for updates involves a large amount of data to download -- or else risk that a foul-up on one check means that you never see that package as having an update until the NEXT update AFTER THAT comes around.
I'll stick with the fool-proof way of getting all the version/update info every time. It's not THAT long of a wait. It is, as Clayton states too:
Clayton wrote:
If you have the patience to actually start it up. It takes forever to refresh the repositories each and every time I launch the software install component. I give up on it long before it ever finishes.. After about 10 minutes I kill it and launch Smart. Less than a minute to refresh, and I am using the same repositories.
Bob Ewart detailed how checking for changes could be done in seconds, like in other distributions:
I agree with all the comments on fixing the software updater. That really needs work. The other day, download.opensuse.org was timing out for most of the morning(EST). According to a comment on the repositories page, this is supposed to be a re-director to a local repository. It should never be down. Maybe the initial interchange with a repository should be a simple date stamp of the latest change. That way downloading large lists could be avoided. I got a kick out of the installation script for the MS fonts. It checks a number of sites and picks the fastest one to respond.
Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel. So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one
Philippe Landau wrote: track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies). Downloading several files at the same time is not a challenge. If you want to go down to hardware level, much is done with
Aaron Kulkis wrote: the help of RAM :-)
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place. And if the server's bandwidth is being used up, so that you only have, say, a 30 kb/sec stream coming in, doing two files in parallel isn't going to give you a larger stream...especially since you're STILL sharing the bandwidth with everyone else on the server. But now, ALL OF YOU are adding even more disk-drive induced slow-downs. Parallelism does not always yield increases in speed, and in this case, it actually HINDERS performance, because there's no parallel hardware, and there's usually not any unused time on the hardware at the bottleneck of the process (disk drives are almost always the bottleneck in any fileserving situation) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place.
Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place.
Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity.
Doesn't Smart download in parallel (both when updating the repositories and when downloading RPMs)? It sure seems like it does on my computer... and I certainly do not have any problems with a read write head bouncing all over the place. I download multiple files at the same time with BitTorrent... no problems. I download multiple files at the same time via my web browser... no problems. I thought the whole point of a multitasking OS was to do things in parallel... not serially.... including downloads. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Clayton wrote:
Doesn't Smart download in parallel (both when updating the repositories and when downloading RPMs)? It sure seems like it does on my computer... and I certainly do not have any problems with a read write head bouncing all over the place. I download multiple files at the same time with BitTorrent... no problems. I download multiple files at the same time via my web browser... no problems. I thought the whole point of a multitasking OS was to do things in parallel... not serially.... including downloads.
the problem is downloading multiple files from *multiples servers*, if from the same server, it's unproductive jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
the problem is downloading multiple files from *multiples servers*, if from the same server, it's unproductive
OK, I can see that.... Wow, we've drifted far from the original topic. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 25, 2007, at 12:45 AM, Clayton wrote:
the problem is downloading multiple files from *multiples servers*, if from the same server, it's unproductive
OK, I can see that....
Wow, we've drifted far from the original topic.
C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I agree. Perhaps if ya'll want to talk about speeding up software updater you can start a new thread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Clayton wrote:
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place. Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity.
Doesn't Smart download in parallel (both when updating the repositories and when downloading RPMs)? It sure seems like it does on my computer... and I certainly do not have any problems with a read write head bouncing all over the place. I download multiple files at the same time with BitTorrent... no problems. I download multiple
Bit torrent seeks out NUMEROUS servers grab parts of each file (in no particular order even). Bit Torrent is the complete OPPOSITE of downloading multiple files from a SINGLE server's hard drive (or striped RAID)
files at the same time via my web browser... no problems. I thought the whole point of a multitasking OS was to do things in parallel... not serially.... including downloads.
Yes, there IS that point...but it ONLY WORKS when the resources are in parallel ***OR*** the non-duplicated resources have less than a 50% duty-cycle in single tasking. During downloads of files residing on the same filesystem from a single server, NEITHER condition is met, and so in that instance, attempts at parallelization actually hinder performance. Remember, all computers are physical devices. If you fail to do an analysis of what is happening at the physical level, then your analysis is likely to be the complete opposite of reality. This is especially true concerning any operation involving disk drives. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place.
Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity.
So you think the repository is going to keep the ENTIRE database of files in RAM??? If not, then we're back to multi-millisecond delays for each and every seek performed by a disk drive read/write head. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 02:20:29 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place.
Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity.
So you think the repository is going to keep the ENTIRE database of files in RAM??? If not, then we're back to multi-millisecond delays for each and every seek performed by a disk drive read/write head.
Aaron, giving so much attention to words and so little to numbers is annoying. The "ENTIRE database" ie. zypp.db is some 50 MB to 150 MB, depends on number of repositories. If that has no place in RAM it is for sure time to buy some. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 25 November 2007 02:20:29 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:47:27 am Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Your missing my point... downloading several files in parallel off of the same server IS SLOWER because you introduce a TREMENDOUS overhead of bouncing the read/write head all over the place. Hmm. It seems like experience of someone running OS from the swap. Buying more RAM, can reduce hard disk activity. So you think the repository is going to keep the ENTIRE database of files in RAM??? If not, then we're back to multi-millisecond delays for each and every seek performed by a disk drive read/write head.
Aaron,
giving so much attention to words and so little to numbers is annoying.
Part of being a good engineer is paying attention to EVERYTHING. In this case, the numbers are immaterial.
The "ENTIRE database" ie. zypp.db is some 50 MB to 150 MB, depends on number of repositories. If that has no place in RAM it is for sure time to buy some.
And you can assure that, while RPMs and other files are being downloaded from it the repository will preferentially keep zypp.db in memory (i.e. not get swapped out to disk), by what method exactly? The Linux kernal can (and will) swap out memory used by any process EXCEPT init. The typical repository holds FAR more files than can fit in the physical RAM of anything smaller than high end compute servers. Generic motherboards for 64-bit CPUs aren't holding any more than 8MB when all the slots are filled.... and many don't even enough for that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 10:31 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel.
So, have the repository's disk-drive head bouncing back and forth between multiple files, rather than staying on one track until it's done... no, that does NOT speed up communication speed..it slows it down further (and even with striping (RAID 1), the principle still applies).
Downloading in parallel only speeds up communication when the different files being downloaded are on completely different PHYSICAL disk drives. That's not very well likely for the update files on a repository.
Checking for changes could be done in seconds.
It's possible that there could be some optimizations there... but I doubt it... checking for updates involves a large amount of data to download -- or else risk that a foul-up on one check means that you never see that package as having an update until the NEXT update AFTER THAT comes around.
I'll stick with the fool-proof way of getting all the version/update info every time. It's not THAT long of a wait.
I think there's a compromise available here. "It's not THAT long of a wait" depends on the amount of repositories you have enabled, and how big those repositories are. For example, when I enable Packman repository, updater check runs significantly longer. I think the way to compromise here is to add an additional option. Mark certain repositories as being "checkable for updates." If I'm using updater, then only repositories that are enabled and marked as updateable would be checked. Otherwise, if it is only marked enabled, then you only get the full gamut when you go into software management.
-- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:21:37 am Bryen wrote:
I think the way to compromise here is to add an additional option. Mark certain repositories as being "checkable for updates." If I'm using updater, then only repositories that are enabled and marked as updateable would be checked. Otherwise, if it is only marked enabled, then you only get the full gamut when you go into software management.
Well, it seems that it works that way right now. If Automatic Refresh is enabled for specific repository, it will check for updates every time, even if that repository doesn't change. You can check that with CD/DVD. It works. If Automatic Refresh is disabled than one has to tell Refresh Now in order to have them refreshed, but then all repositories are refreshed, not only enabled. I have disabled Automatic Refresh for all except Update repository, and then when there is indication that there is newer version that has for me interesting changes, than run Refresh Now. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 12:14 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:21:37 am Bryen wrote:
I think the way to compromise here is to add an additional option. Mark certain repositories as being "checkable for updates." If I'm using updater, then only repositories that are enabled and marked as updateable would be checked. Otherwise, if it is only marked enabled, then you only get the full gamut when you go into software management.
Well, it seems that it works that way right now.
If Automatic Refresh is enabled for specific repository, it will check for updates every time, even if that repository doesn't change. You can check that with CD/DVD. It works.
If Automatic Refresh is disabled than one has to tell Refresh Now in order to have them refreshed, but then all repositories are refreshed, not only enabled.
I have disabled Automatic Refresh for all except Update repository, and then when there is indication that there is newer version that has for me interesting changes, than run Refresh Now.
-- Regards, Rajko. Hmm..
Ok then I revise my proposal. :-) Instead of the aforementioned compromised which apparently already existed unbeknownst to some of us, I propose a word change tweak to make that more clearer than "Automatic Refresh." :-) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 November 2007 07:14:31 pm Bryen wrote:
Hmm..
Ok then I revise my proposal. :-) Instead of the aforementioned compromised which apparently already existed unbeknownst to some of us, I propose a word change tweak to make that more clearer than "Automatic Refresh." :-)
Here we come to the one of problems with current YaST administration suite of programs. While it is quite intuitive what 2 word expression means, it is not clear when that automatic refresh is applied. It could be on every repository access, periodically, after some time that repository is not accessed. The last is default for zypper and I know from bugzilla that period is 10 minutes. For YaST Software Management I would have to check. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
My $.02: Yast does not need redesigned from scratch. Every application has issues, and every newbie programmer wants to start over from scratch. When they finish, they want to start over again. "The grass is always greener on the other side" (stateside saying). Add that to every newbie programmer wants to write "the perfect programming language", and you know how to spot youthful exuberance. Let them get away with it, and you have an example of poor management. I've seen this approach NOT be a total failure/fiasco once in my 30 years as a programmer (and even that time was questionable, as the company went broke before going to market with the re-write). Yes, I do realize this is flame bait, but only from those lacking programming experience. Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 24/11/2007, Chris Worley <worleys@gmail.com> wrote:
My $.02:
Yast does not need redesigned from scratch.
Every application has issues, and every newbie programmer wants to start over from scratch. When they finish, they want to start over again. "The grass is always greener on the other side" (stateside saying). Add that to every newbie programmer wants to write "the perfect programming language", and you know how to spot youthful exuberance.
And if you, (or anyone else) had actually bothered to read the proposal you would realise that this is a proposal for redesigning the UI for the control centre, just a shell which lets people choose a YaST module. A re-write of yast or changing the package management system, or moving to a web UI etc were not even mentioned. This might be as simple as picking an off-the-shelf browser such as system-settings or its gnome equivalent, or writing a very simple application. The primary concern has been how to organise and show the existing YaST modules so that people can find what they're looking for easily. This isn't about re-writing YaST. This hasn't stopped lots of people on the list from creating completely off-topic discussion though. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Benji Weber wrote:
On 24/11/2007, Chris Worley <worleys@gmail.com> wrote:
My $.02:
Yast does not need redesigned from scratch.
Every application has issues, and every newbie programmer wants to start over from scratch. When they finish, they want to start over again. "The grass is always greener on the other side" (stateside saying). Add that to every newbie programmer wants to write "the perfect programming language", and you know how to spot youthful exuberance.
And if you, (or anyone else) had actually bothered to read the proposal you would realise that this is a proposal for redesigning the UI for the control centre, just a shell which lets people choose a
The original post said "Radical redesign" That implies a hell of a lot more than just a cosmetic change of the UI.
YaST module. A re-write of yast or changing the package management system, or moving to a web UI etc were not even mentioned. This might be as simple as picking an off-the-shelf browser such as system-settings or its gnome equivalent, or writing a very simple application.
The primary concern has been how to organise and show the existing YaST modules so that people can find what they're looking for easily. This isn't about re-writing YaST.
The original post said it was. We've all been arguing that the changes SHOULD BE RESTRICTED to cosmetic changes.
This hasn't stopped lots of people on the list from creating completely off-topic discussion though.
You need to go back and read the original post.
-- Benjamin Weber
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 24, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Benji Weber wrote:
My $.02:
Yast does not need redesigned from scratch.
Every application has issues, and every newbie programmer wants to start over from scratch. When they finish, they want to start over again. "The grass is always greener on the other side" (stateside saying). Add that to every newbie programmer wants to write "the perfect programming language", and you know how to spot youthful exuberance. And if you, (or anyone else) had actually bothered to read the
On 24/11/2007, Chris Worley <worleys@gmail.com> wrote: proposal you would realise that this is a proposal for redesigning the UI for the control centre, just a shell which lets people choose a
The original post said "Radical redesign"
That implies a hell of a lot more than just a cosmetic change of the UI.
YaST module. A re-write of yast or changing the package management system, or moving to a web UI etc were not even mentioned. This might be as simple as picking an off-the-shelf browser such as system-settings or its gnome equivalent, or writing a very simple application. The primary concern has been how to organise and show the existing YaST modules so that people can find what they're looking for easily. This isn't about re-writing YaST.
The original post said it was. We've all been arguing that the changes SHOULD BE RESTRICTED to cosmetic changes.
This hasn't stopped lots of people on the list from creating completely off-topic discussion though.
You need to go back and read the original post.
-- Benjamin Weber
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I disagree. The original post meant a rewrite of the UI. The wiki page pays attention to a rewrite of the UI. It's a rewrite of the UI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 21:56 -0600, Kevin Dupuy wrote:
I disagree. The original post meant a rewrite of the UI. The wiki page pays attention to a rewrite of the UI. It's a rewrite of the UI.
He may have meant that, but he did not /write/ that. For me, a radical redesign means that everything is to be changed, not just the UI. The UI was not mentioned. He could have said "a radical UI redesign" - but he didn't. In fact, I don't care about the UI redesign, it is fine as it is. I know my way about it, I don't want to learn a new interface. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSWbMtTMYHG2NR9URAuCnAKCGf40076eeX9wACzX4+KIwNhBTjgCggqt1 UY1zwjicwWgwjsD5Nf+ix2I= =llsc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 13:12 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 21:56 -0600, Kevin Dupuy wrote:
I disagree. The original post meant a rewrite of the UI. The wiki page pays attention to a rewrite of the UI. It's a rewrite of the UI.
He may have meant that, but he did not /write/ that. For me, a radical redesign means that everything is to be changed, not just the UI. The UI was not mentioned.
He could have said "a radical UI redesign" - but he didn't.
In fact, I don't care about the UI redesign, it is fine as it is. I know my way about it, I don't want to learn a new interface.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
I agree with Carlos, not just for the wording of the original post but because of the intent of the survey in and of itself. If you look at the wiki page, on the Problem paragraph, it becomes clear that the issue is an attempt to reduce user confusion and bug reporting. For Yast developers, they may have assumed that the problem is because of the current look and feel and that it needed to be changed somehow. In fact, what has happened is that instead of complaining about the look and feel, we've said "No, the look and feel is just fine. It is ....(fill in the blank)... that is the problem." That's far more valuable feedback for the survey than you may think. I'll restate my earlier posting here. A survey is about finding out what people think/perceive and whether those thoughts/perceptions were similar to what the surveyor thought/perceived. This survey has taken on an entirely different animal than what appears to have been intended in the literal translation of the original post. Nevertheless, you can't say that it is wrong. In my nearly 2 months here, this is the first time I've seen such vigorous debate about Yast, and that has to be a good thing no matter what. I am certain that the Yast developers completely appreciate what has transformed here. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 07:24:55 am Bryen wrote:
For Yast developers, they may have assumed that the problem is because of the current look and feel and that it needed to be changed somehow. In fact, what has happened is that instead of complaining about the look and feel, we've said "No, the look and feel is just fine. It is ....(fill in the blank)... that is the problem." That's far more valuable feedback for the survey than you may think.
I'll restate my earlier posting here. A survey is about finding out what people think/perceive and whether those thoughts/perceptions were similar to what the surveyor thought/perceived. This survey has taken on an entirely different animal than what appears to have been intended in the literal translation of the original post. Nevertheless, you can't say that it is wrong. In my nearly 2 months here, this is the first time I've seen such vigorous debate about Yast, and that has to be a good thing no matter what.
Sincerely, where do you read survey ;-) It is call for proposals/ideas how to organize YaST Control Center for early 21st century. There are other calls for module improvement ideas, proposals and testing. For instance last proposal for printing module: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-ux/2007-11/msg00025.html and from list you can see http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-ux/2007-11/date.html Ops, there is discussion on User eXperience list about "Redesign of YaST Control Center" too. I think that is time for most of people discussing YaST here to subscribe to opensuse-ux+subscribe@opensuse.org , create additional folder 'ux' in mail client, create filter that will send incoming mails to that folder, and take part in discussions there. That is right place. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 08:19 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 25 November 2007 07:24:55 am Bryen wrote:
For Yast developers, they may have assumed that the problem is because of the current look and feel and that it needed to be changed somehow. In fact, what has happened is that instead of complaining about the look and feel, we've said "No, the look and feel is just fine. It is ....(fill in the blank)... that is the problem." That's far more valuable feedback for the survey than you may think.
I'll restate my earlier posting here. A survey is about finding out what people think/perceive and whether those thoughts/perceptions were similar to what the surveyor thought/perceived. This survey has taken on an entirely different animal than what appears to have been intended in the literal translation of the original post. Nevertheless, you can't say that it is wrong. In my nearly 2 months here, this is the first time I've seen such vigorous debate about Yast, and that has to be a good thing no matter what.
Sincerely, where do you read survey ;-)
You don't have to see the word "survey" to be intelligent enough to understand it is implied. Here's the definition of "survey": "to take a general or comprehensive view of or appraise, as a situation, area of study, etc." That's exactly what this thread is. But I know you were just saying that in jest because I have seen your writings in the past and know you are intelligent enough to have known it was a survey. Thanks for adding some jocularity to the thread. :-) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 01:01:18PM +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
How do you propose that YAST improve network communication speed? Downloading in parallel. Checking for changes could be done in seconds.
Actually the check just retrieves the repomd.xml (a 1kb file) and sees if it changed. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 23 Nov, 2007 at 18:06:22 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
On Friday 23 November 2007 03:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see.
Indeed, thanks for that.
All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories. And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day?
Agreed.
I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake, but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it.
Me too, though 'better' *is* kind of a subjective experience I guess :) In other subthreads there are discussions on a variety of aspects. My take on a couple of them: [architecture] I agree that a server/client sort of thing might be nice. There was some discussion about ssh -X vs. NX and 'going https://' To me the speed of ssh vs. NX seems irrelevant. If we're talking about server/client - then the traffic would mainly consist of 'control-messages' anyway, right? server> "here are the options" client> "do this" server> "ok" vs: server> "bitmap bitmap bitmap" client> "mouse click on coordinates such and such" server> "pixel pixel pixel" So what's needed is a networked YaST *protocol*, encapsulated in strong encryption, rather than a way of transporting a locally generated gui somewhere else (or rather; a remotely generated gui transported to 'here'). https:// ? please don't: Next thing you know it, I'm going to need javascript or mono or something, in order to administrate remote boxes... <brrr....> Cross-platform? Thanks, but no thanks: I have no desire to see linux core administration at the mercy of windows-viruses. Functionality? Well, if the server knows something that my local YaST-console doesn't, there should be an option to download and install that module from the server. [gui-layout] I'm a big fan of tree structures, and the "left-pane shows navigation, right pane shows content" way of things. I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST does a very good job. However, since there are more ways than one to represent the various administrative tasks, it might be nice to have different tree *types*, selectable. On the other end of the spectrum we have the, no offense, 'gnome-menu' type of layout; Everything is one window, with icons spread out, and a scroll-bar that you have to manipulate. I don't like it. There, I said it. MO /jon -- YMMV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 24 Nov, 2007 at 09:18:16 +0100, Jon Clausen wrote:
[gui-layout] I'm a big fan of tree structures, and the "left-pane shows navigation, right pane shows content" way of things.
I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST does a very good job.
actually, let me rephrase that; I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST is a good example. /jon -- YMMV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jon Clausen wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov, 2007 at 09:18:16 +0100, Jon Clausen wrote:
[gui-layout] I'm a big fan of tree structures, and the "left-pane shows navigation, right pane shows content" way of things.
I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST does a very good job.
actually, let me rephrase that;
I think the sysconfig editor tree-structure in the ncurses YaST is a good example.
/jon
Please do not change the ability to access YaST from a terminal. When I installed 10.3 on a Intel quad system, the installation locked up at the very end and rebooting didn't help. I had to boot into level 3 and run all the updates from the terminal. Now this system is running fine. Maybe it's time for a 10.3.1 release. There are a number of places in the KDE control center which require administrator access. It would be nice if those things could be accessed from YaST. One place to do all the administrator tasks. I agree with all the comments on fixing the software updater. That really needs work. The other day, download.opensuse.org was timing out for most of the morning(EST). According to a comment on the repositories page, this is supposed to be a re-director to a local repository. It should never be down. Maybe the initial interchange with a repository should be a simple date stamp of the latest change. That way downloading large lists could be avoided. I got a kick out of the installation script for the MS fonts. It checks a number of sites and picks the fastest one to respond. I've been on SuSE since Caldera went down. I've tried many other distributions over the years. YaST is the main reason that I keep coming back. -- Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
two things * I like the way YaST *install* shows the summary of the computer configuration (in two moments, one for each config, before and after the reboot): that is one page with titles as links to the module * I never understood why a network card is *not* a hardware? and a third (as usual): * we are not obliged to use the same mockup as Mandriva or Ubuntu... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Thomas. Thanks for asking us about what we'd like to see.
All I really want is for YAST to be faster, especially at downloading updates from repositories. And why does it have to download a whole new list if I used it earlier in the day?
I'm not convinced I WANT a radical new design. I don't, as a rule, care all that much for change for change's sake, but if you give me a better Yast, I'll learn it.
I second this. I would like to be able to tell it to update or not to update the repositories at the time when I start the software installation module, and have an option to tell it to skip certain updates. I know this all can be done, but since it is localized in a separate module, it can be quite inconvenient. A couple of simple user interface issues. It should follow the configuration of Konqueror (or whatever is appropriate in Gnome, if the user is using gnome) with respect of single/dobule click to open the files. I much prefer to use double click to open files, and that's how everything but YaST is configured. So I end up starting 2 copies of the same modules sometimes. Also, YaST should have an option to select a language different from the user's locale. I work in the Ukrainian locale so that I can use Ukrainian language easily, but I much prefer my user interface in English. The current YaST translations into Ukrainian are nearly incomprehensible (or at least incomprehensible to someone who learned to use SuSE when it was all Enlglish, and does all her computer work in English). KDE settings allow me to choose the language applications use, and YaST should have that option, too. Myrosia -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 19:13 -0000, Myrosia Dzikovska wrote:
I second this. I would like to be able to tell it to update or not to update the repositories at the time when I start the software installation module, and have an option to tell it to skip certain updates. I know this all can be done, but since it is localized in a separate module, it can be quite inconvenient.
And having the "abort" button really work, and instantly. It is impossible to abort YOU in mid-download-repos-phase, unless you kill it - which means you later have to find the run/pid file and remove it manually.
Also, YaST should have an option to select a language different from the user's locale. I work in the Ukrainian locale so that I can use Ukrainian language easily, but I much prefer my user interface in English. The current YaST translations into Ukrainian are nearly incomprehensible (or at least incomprehensible to someone who learned to use SuSE when it was all Enlglish, and does all her computer work in English). KDE settings allow me to choose the language applications use, and YaST should have that option, too.
Perhaps you can do that from the command line. My root locale is english, so I can fire up yast in Spanish this way: nimrodel:~ # LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 KDE_LANG=es_ES yast2 I actually have a "spanish" script to callup any program in Spanish: #!/bin/sh LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 DICTIONARY=espanol KDE_LANG=es_ES $* So, you would have to define "LANG=POSIX", I think, to get Yast in English. nimrodel:~ # locale LANG=POSIX LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" LC_TIME="POSIX" LC_COLLATE="POSIX" LC_MONETARY="POSIX" LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" LC_PAPER="POSIX" LC_NAME="POSIX" LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" LC_ALL= - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSIYWtTMYHG2NR9URAjIiAJ0aj1tw6IDP64Ls7aUaIpHP63rzYQCfWulA Q3jay3TFZjmr+AUVt8NwsH0= =zYS2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
And having the "abort" button really work, and instantly. It is impossible to abort YOU in mid-download-repos-phase, unless you kill it - which means you later have to find the run/pid file and remove it manually.
Oh, yes - meant to mention this, too.
Perhaps you can do that from the command line.
My root locale is english, so I can fire up yast in Spanish this way:
nimrodel:~ # LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 KDE_LANG=es_ES yast2
I actually have a "spanish" script to callup any program in Spanish:
#!/bin/sh LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 DICTIONARY=espanol KDE_LANG=es_ES $*
Doesn't work for me :( I tried several options (POSIX, C, en_US, setting all the variables as you suggested) and YaST still starts up in Ukrainian. I don't want to run in English locale and have have to start individual programs from the command line to get Ukrainian, though, because then copy and paste begins to behave badly. And I use too many applications where Ukrainian input and output are important, including those that sometimes get started automatically (like OpenOffice when I double-click on a file). If I have to start everything from the command line, this will become too much of a hassle. YaST is the only one that has problems with language settings, though - other applications either respect KDE settings, or have their own language setting that I can adjust. Myrosia -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 20:31 -0000, Myrosia Dzikovska wrote:
nimrodel:~ # LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 KDE_LANG=es_ES yast2
I actually have a "spanish" script to callup any program in Spanish:
#!/bin/sh LANG=es_ES.UTF-8 LC_ALL=es_ES.UTF-8 DICTIONARY=espanol KDE_LANG=es_ES $*
Doesn't work for me :( I tried several options (POSIX, C, en_US, setting all the variables as you suggested) and YaST still starts up in Ukrainian. I don't want to run in English locale and have have to start individual programs from the command line to get Ukrainian, though, because then copy and paste begins to behave badly. And I use too many applications where Ukrainian input and output are important, including those that sometimes get started automatically (like OpenOffice when I double-click on a file). If I have to start everything from the command line, this will become too much of a hassle. YaST is the only one that has problems with language settings, though - other applications either respect KDE settings, or have their own language setting that I can adjust.
I have no problem changing Yast's language from the command line. That's weird. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSKtotTMYHG2NR9URAq74AJ4kasg6CFIHEDuTserBQ3TTyrPg4gCfaZe/ nS4DYFJ9sHEV244cO4AmISM= =tAD8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Myrosia Dzikovska wrote:
I second this. I would like to be able to tell it to update or not to update the repositories at the time when I start the software
better on. YaST shouldn't update at all without notice. It should first load and ask for the software to install. at that time only it should ask shall I update? and after that ask ? there is a new version, do you want it? and if not still install (at least as long as there are the corretc package available), insist to update if there are nor more the registered packages online. It's specially boresome to wait for YaST updating when You have the package already available from the dvd jdd (NB: that is it could also update silently in the background when online) -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
Why? The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Keep it how it is! It works. Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken. If you were a shop keeper, and there was a leak in your roof, or maybe a pipe, would you waste time replacing the plate glass in the display window? I've never seen anyone in the user base is complaining ON ANY FORUM about YAST as it currently exists. The "Problems" on the wiki page below are nothing more than issues of cosmetics (appearance) and organization of the YAST "functionality tree"..neither of which should require a major overhaul of YAST, only a few minor tweaks.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
All the mockups there have LESS functionality than the current YAST system. There's no way that your new control center is going to have just as much functionality as the current yast without requiring the window to be larger than the desktop, or to resort to minimizing the size of icons and labels, such as in the 3rd and 4th illustrations. YUCK!
Thanks, Thomas
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Aaron Kulkis schrieb:
The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Keep it how it is! It works.
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.
Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season. Cheers /J -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Keep it how it is! It works.
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.
Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.
I couldn't agree more. YaST works, and it is a major strength of openSUSE ando ne of the prime reasons I still use openSUSE. Cosmetic changes especially going the "Gnome way of doing things" is a really bad idea... really bad. We already have two different interfaces in YaST (instead of being consistent and GUI agnostic) now due to tinkering in something that wasn't broken to begin with. Please don't tinker any more! Focus on the badly broken and deficient things first. Then when those things are working, and ONLY then, should anyone start playing with the look and feel of existing and fully functional/working components. Look at what a disaster the online update system has been. It is dramatically improving, but it still has a VERY long way to go to be something usable compared to competing distributions. Focus the developer time and energies on things like that. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Focus on the badly broken and deficient things first. [...] Look at what a disaster the online update system has been. It is dramatically improving, but it still has a VERY long way to go to be something usable compared to competing distributions. Focus the developer time and energies on things like that. In some respects it is better then in other distros. Update offers contain an explanation of what changed. There is more information available. But software is spread over too many repositories. And often is hard to find at all. For example, i still did not find: bluefish, stellarium, kbackup. It would also help if repositories contained more pointers,
Clayton wrote: like for Kompozer/Composer which is in SeaMonkey. And it could help setting up the most popular repositories. "Provides" could be checked by default. General update option could be made more obvious. Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Focus on the badly broken and deficient things first. [...] Look at what a disaster the online update system has been. It is dramatically improving, but it still has a VERY long way to go to be something usable compared to competing distributions. Focus the developer time and energies on things like that. In some respects it is better then in other distros. Update offers contain an explanation of what changed.
If you have the patience to actually start it up. It takes forever to refresh the repositories each and every time I launch the software install component. I give up on it long before it ever finishes.. After about 10 minutes I kill it and launch Smart. Less than a minute to refresh, and I am using the same repositories. That is not better than other distributions. That is not better than any other mainstream distribution. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 24 November 2007 02:27:29 am Jan Tiggy wrote: ...
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.
Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.
Hi Jan, No one wants to develop something new without good reason, specially not Novell that is paying for this. YaST is old tool, and it was changed from time to time to adjust layout and functionality to new demands. This version is few years old and it was example how to do it when it was created, but now there are better solutions and YaST has to go forward. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 02:27:29 am Jan Tiggy wrote: ...
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken. Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.
Hi Jan,
No one wants to develop something new without good reason, specially not Novell that is paying for this.
YaST is old tool, and it was changed from time to time to adjust layout and functionality to new demands. This version is few years old and it was example how to do it when it was created, but now there are better solutions and YaST has to go forward.
Been following this discussion and some of its diversions with interest. Some thoughts.... a) I think that currently Yast as a overall design is sound and really needs little change. Where some things are kept needs some tweaking, but to change references like NISS to something like 'centralised user management' is probably inappropriate and likely to create as much confusion as it is to enlighten. b) A good idea would be links to a local (at least for networking, if your networking is broken and you want more info, an externally networked resource is not got to be entirely helpful) html version of the documentation and where appropriate HowTos from the modules as with swat. c) Probably the thing which needs most revision is the software management side. I seem to remember with 8.x and 9.x fairly detailed information on a particular package was available before one installed it. Now we have a scenario where we get a massive and slow update of local information resources (which makes this process rather painful), that does not include such info. From a company (Novell) that has access to some of the most efficient database synchronisation technologies around, this is somewhat unbelievable, and needs fixing. d) Though there is some doubt on the attribution of the quote below... I think one needs to be aware that there is validity in the point made...change for changes sake is a dangerous trap... [...] but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation." (Caius Petronius Arbiter (Roman Administrator). c.60 A.D.) - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHSpzSasN0sSnLmgIRArhiAJoDsLhcZd9FXVM5wfIps78IPMTzBgCgwSn5 ejSzavxDy6lXwJJW05Wwmt0= =3G0T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 26 November 2007 04:15:47 am G T Smith wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 24 November 2007 02:27:29 am Jan Tiggy wrote: ...
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.
Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.
Hi Jan,
No one wants to develop something new without good reason, specially not Novell that is paying for this.
YaST is old tool, and it was changed from time to time to adjust layout and functionality to new demands. This version is few years old and it was example how to do it when it was created, but now there are better solutions and YaST has to go forward.
Been following this discussion and some of its diversions with interest.
Some thoughts....
a) I think that currently Yast as a overall design is sound and really needs little change. Where some things are kept needs some tweaking, but to change references like NISS to something like 'centralised user management' is probably inappropriate and likely to create as much confusion as it is to enlighten.
Sure.
b) A good idea would be links to a local (at least for networking, if your networking is broken and you want more info, an externally networked resource is not got to be entirely helpful) html version of the documentation and where appropriate HowTos from the modules as with swat.
It is logical to have basic network off line, and basic system setup in the book.
c) Probably the thing which needs most revision is the software management side. I seem to remember with 8.x and 9.x fairly detailed information on a particular package was available before one installed it.
Now we have a scenario where we get a massive and slow update of local information resources (which makes this process rather painful), that does not include such info. From a company (Novell) that has access to some of the most efficient database synchronisation technologies around, this is somewhat unbelievable, and needs fixing.
So far I know they are looking to provide package information before package is installed, but that is not trivial for repositories that are not static. Simply they don't want to rush and slow down package management.
d) Though there is some doubt on the attribution of the quote below... I think one needs to be aware that there is validity in the point made...change for changes sake is a dangerous trap...
[...] but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation." (Caius Petronius Arbiter (Roman Administrator). c.60 A.D.)
Since Roman times life is not changed that much :-)
=========================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.
Bjarne Stroustrup ===========================================================================
http://en.opensuse.org/Famous_quotes -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 24, 2007, at 2:27 AM, Jan Tiggy wrote:
Aaron Kulkis schrieb:
The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Keep it how it is! It works.
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.
Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.
Cheers /J -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
But, you see, this is the reason there is more than one developer at SUSE ;). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 2:27 AM, Jan Tiggy wrote:
Aaron Kulkis schrieb:
The current design is perfectly good, and as close to flawless as it can be for what it is supposed to do.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Keep it how it is! It works.
Why waste time on unnecessary development (which will then have bugs), when the SuSE team *COULD* be using that same time, energy, and attention working on things that are currently broken.
Full ACK! Let it be guys and maybe focus on bugs for a season.
Cheers /J -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
But, you see, this is the reason there is more than one developer at SUSE ;).
Well, unfortunately, they're not getting enough basic bug-fixes done to warrant devoting man-hours towards starting up a whole new project to replace something that already works, and only needs a few extensions.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list. If someone can't figure out Yast I have two suggestions: a) Return your computer to where you bought it. They are probably to stupid to own one anyway. b) Stick with Windows. Your computer on training wheels. Besides, Billy will be more than glad to trash your computer for you. The examples on the page looked a whole lot like KDE System Settings with more functionality. If that's what your shooting for, just add modules to System Settings. Yast is, hands down, the best control center for any distro I have looked at.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control
Center.
Two thoughts: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. K. I. S. S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list.
I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing!
If someone can't figure out Yast I have two suggestions:
a) Return your computer to where you bought it. They are probably to stupid to own one anyway. b) Stick with Windows. Your computer on training wheels. Besides, Billy will be more than glad to trash your computer for you.
Do you know how much we all hate it when people tell users who are a little confused with Linux to just "run back to Windows"?
The examples on the page looked a whole lot like KDE System Settings with more functionality. If that's what your shooting for, just add modules to System Settings.
That is an idea, but it still doesn't help the 'figuring out which module to use' part.
Yast is, hands down, the best control center for any distro I have looked at.
I agree.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control
Center.
Two thoughts:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Here's the thing: YaST isn't broken, since YaST is basically just a container for launching the YaST modules. ON that note, a bunch of icons in a window is perfect! But, a new user might not know where to go to do certain things. This is what is being discussed.
K. I. S. S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list.
I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing!
SuSE 9.0 was the first time I ever worked on anything other than DOS/Windows. On the other hand I had used about everything from about DOS 3/Windows 1 up through Win ME then XP. My first PC was an 8088XT. My first computer was a TI 99/4A then a CoCo. What the heck is so confusing about "Software" in the left panel and "Software Management", "Online Update", etc in the right. OR, "Hardware" in left panel and "TV Card", Mouse", Keyboard", etc in the right. When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there. It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.
If someone can't figure out Yast I have two suggestions:
a) Return your computer to where you bought it. They are probably to stupid to own one anyway. b) Stick with Windows. Your computer on training wheels. Besides, Billy will be more than glad to trash your computer for you.
Do you know how much we all hate it when people tell users who are a little confused with Linux to just "run back to Windows"?
I stand by it. If someone is so stupid they can't figure out what YaST>Hardware>Mouse does they are probably to stupid to run a computer in the first place. Either take it back to the store where they bought it or let Windows hold their hand.
The examples on the page looked a whole lot like KDE System Settings with more functionality. If that's what your shooting for, just add modules to System Settings.
That is an idea, but it still doesn't help the 'figuring out which module to use' part.
Yast is, hands down, the best control center for any distro I have looked at.
I agree.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control
Center.
Two thoughts:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Here's the thing: YaST isn't broken, since YaST is basically just a container for launching the YaST modules. ON that note, a bunch of icons in a window is perfect! But, a new user might not know where to go to do certain things. This is what is being discussed.
See above. YaST, as a container, is NOT broken. It doesn't need fixing. What could anyone do better than showing an icon that is a picture of what the module you are opening works on and giving it a name that reflects the thing. If the icon is a mouse and it says "Mouse Model" beside it I sorta figure it does something to the mouse. Or, if it's a TV set and says "TV Card" beside it I would expect it to have something to do with configuring my TV Card. I would be surprised as hell if it had something to do with the network management.
K. I. S. S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 17:59 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list.
I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing!
SuSE 9.0 was the first time I ever worked on anything other than DOS/Windows. On the other hand I had used about everything from about DOS 3/Windows 1 up through Win ME then XP. My first PC was an 8088XT. My first computer was a TI 99/4A then a CoCo.
What the heck is so confusing about "Software" in the left panel and "Software Management", "Online Update", etc in the right. OR, "Hardware" in left panel and "TV Card", Mouse", Keyboard", etc in the right.
When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there.
It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before? Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up: "Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server." Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11/24/2007 Bryen wrote:
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.
When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there. The "help" stuff does need a little work. Never said it didn't. But
As has been pointed out by some people the thread was about YaST, the container, NOT the modules within. YaST>Network Services IS self explanatory. If you add in the ">NIS Server" it is still self explanatory. It deals with the NIS Server settings, NOT your video settings. As I said in my post: that's a module issue and not a container issue. Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings. FYI: I have no earthly idea what an "NIS Server" is. I don't need it and don't use it. If I needed to know what was needed I would start with Google and the SuSE pages, OR I would know what was needed because it was something I needed to use. In the three, or so, years I've been using Linux full time I haven't needed to make any changes in that particular module. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:50 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 11/24/2007 Bryen wrote:
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.
As has been pointed out by some people the thread was about YaST, the container, NOT the modules within. YaST>Network Services IS self explanatory. If you add in the ">NIS Server" it is still self explanatory. It deals with the NIS Server settings, NOT your video settings.
When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there. The "help" stuff does need a little work. Never said it didn't. But
As I said in my post: that's a module issue and not a container issue.
Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings.
FYI: I have no earthly idea what an "NIS Server" is. I don't need it and don't use it. If I needed to know what was needed I would start with Google and the SuSE pages, OR I would know what was needed because it was something I needed to use. In the three, or so, years I've been using Linux full time I haven't needed to make any changes in that particular module.
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:18:28 Bryen wrote:
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.
I wouldn't call that an architectural change. I'd be very surprised if that feature required more than 10 lines of code (not counting the text itself, of course) Tooltips are built into qt and don't require any substantial redesign to use Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 03:26 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:18:28 Bryen wrote:
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.
I wouldn't call that an architectural change. I'd be very surprised if that feature required more than 10 lines of code (not counting the text itself, of course)
Tooltips are built into qt and don't require any substantial redesign to use
Anders
-- Madness takes its toll
Madness just took its toll :-) Okay I stand corrected. It was a bad choice of words on my part. But I was trying to emphasize the fact that help/information doesn't have to be defined as only a module's responsibility and not a feature of the control center itself. Somehow, clearly, I erred in my choice of words. But I hope the gist of what i meant was conveyed. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:31:41 Bryen wrote:
Okay I stand corrected. It was a bad choice of words on my part. But I was trying to emphasize the fact that help/information doesn't have to be defined as only a module's responsibility and not a feature of the control center itself. Somehow, clearly, I erred in my choice of words. But I hope the gist of what i meant was conveyed.
Well, in a way I disagree. The design of YaST is to be modular. Everything about a module should (must?) come from the module itself. This is the only way it can be extended in a sane way. Imagine if a third party developer writes a yast module, and then has to wait for a core update for things to become active The concept of help texts is a design thing, but from what little I've seen of yast scripting, there is nothing preventing a module from providing help texts, however large. They can even open extra windows, if the help text doesn't fit in a side bar The tooltip popup in the centre itself will probably require a change in yast core though Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Sunday 25 November 2007 03:26:41 Anders Johansson ste napísal:
On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:18:28 Bryen wrote:
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.
I wouldn't call that an architectural change. I'd be very surprised if that feature required more than 10 lines of code (not counting the text itself, of course)
Tooltips are built into qt and don't require any substantial redesign to use
The point is that providing a useful tooltips is a huge effort - we need to write a sane paragraph for every out of our 70+ modules. This means, writing, proofreading, correcting and translating. It's sane to discuss a move like this beforehand. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 26 November 2007 16:46:22 Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The point is that providing a useful tooltips is a huge effort - we need to write a sane paragraph for every out of our 70+ modules. This means, writing, proofreading, correcting and translating.
It's sane to discuss a move like this beforehand.
Of course. But the code change must be minimal, and the actual tool tips could be added gradually. Nothing says everything must be put in there from day one. Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 18:34 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 26 November 2007 16:46:22 Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The point is that providing a useful tooltips is a huge effort - we need to write a sane paragraph for every out of our 70+ modules. This means, writing, proofreading, correcting and translating.
It's sane to discuss a move like this beforehand.
Of course. But the code change must be minimal, and the actual tool tips could be added gradually. Nothing says everything must be put in there from day one.
not sure if it makes sense, but couldn't it use the RPM descriptions? AFAIK most modules are in separate packages, so it should be easy to have that automatically generated, provided the .spec file descriptions are good enough -- Rodrigo Moya <rodrigo@novell.com> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11/24/2007 Bryen wrote:
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.
Absolutely right. And, not a bad idea. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 20:40 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 11/24/2007 Bryen wrote:
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.
Absolutely right.
And, not a bad idea.
This function exists in GNOME's Main-Menu. For example, when hovering over the OpenOffice icon, I get "Create and edit graphics and text in letters, reports, documents and web pages by using Writer." Simple easy to use, very self explanatory. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:50 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 11/24/2007 Bryen wrote:
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services. As has been pointed out by some people the thread was about YaST, the container, NOT the modules within. YaST>Network Services IS self explanatory. If you add in the ">NIS Server" it is still self explanatory. It deals with the NIS Server settings, NOT your video settings.
When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there. The "help" stuff does need a little work. Never said it didn't. But
As I said in my post: that's a module issue and not a container issue.
Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings.
FYI: I have no earthly idea what an "NIS Server" is. I don't need it and don't use it. If I needed to know what was needed I would start with Google and the SuSE pages, OR I would know what was needed because it was something I needed to use. In the three, or so, years I've been using Linux full time I haven't needed to make any changes in that particular module.
Ahh but the suggestions that were posted much earlier in the thread were "container" related and not module related. The ability to hover your mouse anywhere in YAST Control Center and get a pop up box that tells you a brief description of this or that module. That would be an architectural design of the container itself.
A small extension to YaST for that wouldn't be bad, as long as it's just extending the current YaST code base, rather than the proposal to do a wholesale replacement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 19:50 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
As has been pointed out by some people the thread was about YaST, the container, NOT the modules within. YaST>Network Services IS self explanatory. If you add in the ">NIS Server" it is still self explanatory. It deals with the NIS Server settings, NOT your video settings.
...
Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings.
As it is something that is "inside" the network configuration, it is easy to wonder whether one needs a NIS server or not - and there is almost no help there to clarify the doubts. It might be something we didn't heard of before, and be interesting to have - or perhaps not. Some modules are very intuitive or provide good help, and some have almost no help or is it useless. A seasoned administrator will know what NIS is for and maybe know how to set it up from the CLI, so he will not miss help from yast. But for the rest of us mere mortals, for whom yast existence is often a blessing, that scarceness of help with some modules is disconcerting, and we would be very gratified if improved. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSNx2tTMYHG2NR9URAmodAKCReZLnJG/Z4CuFXCljjORMaFW9agCfeaYU c9bd9XsemSjgk5Xv704mwMk= =1c+l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh wrote:
Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings.
FYI: I have no earthly idea what an "NIS Server" is. I don't need it and don't use it.
if you don't know what it is you can't know if you don't need it!!! I just had to help somebody that wanted to have the multiuser roaming profile he had with windows, guess what he had to do? is the module's name was: "centralized user accounts", may be you could think this is usefull, even for your small home network (may be not :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
Somehow, I have wonder why someone that didn't know what an "NIS Server" is would be trying to change settings.
FYI: I have no earthly idea what an "NIS Server" is. I don't need it and don't use it.
if you don't know what it is you can't know if you don't need it!!!
I just had to help somebody that wanted to have the multiuser roaming profile he had with windows, guess what he had to do?
is the module's name was: "centralized user accounts", may be you could think this is usefull, even for your small home network (may be not :-)
But NIS in itself is not "centralized user accounts" it's nothing more than "centralized user passwords and pathname of home directory" This is, in the words of Shakespeare, much ado about nothing. Most users (especially the most clueless) are of the "if it isn't broken, I'm not going to screw with it" mindset. If their desktop installation isn't broken, they're not going to go looking for things to screw around with. The only people who WILL screw around with something like NIS settings are the types who are also curious enough to use Google to figure out what in the world they're getting into. And besides, the only way bad NIS settings will cause problems is if there are is AT LEAST one NIS slave server set up AND ALSO at least one NIS master server set up. If there is no NIS master, then the NIS slave just looks for information in /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow. If an NIS master is set up without an NIS slave, then it doesn't do anything. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11/25/2007 jdd wrote:
if you don't know what it is you can't know if you don't need it!!!
I just had to help somebody that wanted to have the multiuser roaming profile he had with windows, guess what he had to do?
is the module's name was: "centralized user accounts", may be you could think this is usefull, even for your small home network (may be not :-)
jdd
OK, toss me a challenge. *<[:oD Quote from http://www.linux-nis.org/nis/: [ Google is my friend ] The Network Information Service (NIS) provides a simple network lookup service consisting of databases and processes. Now I know a little bit about it. In our particular home network it wouldn't be usefull. I can see where it could be in different circumstances I'm not so sure that "Centralized User Accounts" would have told me any more than "NIS Server" did. I'm sure that IF I had ever found a need for it either would have been fine. My first inclination when finding I need something, but don't really know what it is, is to start using Google and/or Wikipedia. After a time I can usually track something down that will tell me what I need. Then another search will usually turn up the process of getting it and setting it up. The fun is in the hunt. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 07:26:26 am Billie Walsh wrote:
OK, toss me a challenge. *<[:oD
Quote from http://www.linux-nis.org/nis/: [ Google is my friend ] The Network Information Service (NIS) provides a simple network lookup service consisting of databases and processes.
Now I know a little bit about it. In our particular home network it wouldn't be usefull. I can see where it could be in different circumstances
I'm not so sure that "Centralized User Accounts" would have told me any more than "NIS Server" did. I'm sure that IF I had ever found a need for it either would have been fine. My first inclination when finding I need something, but don't really know what it is, is to start using Google and/or Wikipedia. After a time I can usually track something down that will tell me what I need. Then another search will usually turn up the process of getting it and setting it up. The fun is in the hunt.
From this you can see advantage to have link http://www.linux-nis.org/nis/ included in help, It would save you Google search, and make sure that you get relevant web page, not some other page that talks about NIS. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
From this you can see advantage to have link http://www.linux-nis.org/nis/
nis was only an example in fact there are several kind of users/users needs: * fresh computer user, not knowing anything: it is no more disturbed by Linux than by Windows, he don't understand nothing. However I just discovered than, at least in France, there are no more any Linux books in supermarkets (neither "Linux for dummies"), and given there is no more a manual for opensuse (in french), this is weird, because any vista user can find many. * windows user, probably the many. This one needs to know what Linux module is similar to he's already known windows one * unix user (are there anymore?? may be students). I don't think they have problems with yast, or if there is a problem this is knowing that yast exists :-)) * other distro's users. I had to use last week a control center exacltly the same as the one proposed in the mockups. I couldn't find my way at all!! too many similar modules thus my proposal of (may be as popups) infos/summary about real module setup (for example, for NIS: 10 users on the server "Harvest"). Kde control center (V3) is not that good neither jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
From this you can see advantage to have link http://www.linux-nis.org/nis/
nis was only an example
in fact there are several kind of users/users needs:
* fresh computer user, not knowing anything: it is no more disturbed by Linux than by Windows, he don't understand nothing. However I just discovered than, at least in France, there are no more any Linux books in supermarkets (neither "Linux for dummies"), and given there is no more a manual for opensuse (in french), this is weird, because any vista user can find many.
There is very little in the way of "Linux For Dummies" in the USofA also. In fact there is virtually NOTHING in any national chain dealing with Linux. [ There might be something in places like Barnes and Noble, etc. ] CompUSA used to carry some Linux distros [ Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake ] and other software but doesn't any longer. A few of the smaller local stores have dabbles in Linux, but not seriously.
* windows user, probably the many. This one needs to know what Linux module is similar to he's already known windows one
IMHO, many of the newbies to Linux will be basic home users fed up with Microsoft. [ that was my case ] Users that use e-mail, surf the web and need other basic software. A lot will be using laptops so will need wifi and other laptop essentials. [ why does my desktop have the "Plugged in" icon in the systray? ( rhetorical question - no need to reply ) ] Marc Chamberlin mentioned "Wizards". I don't know if they are an answer or not [ probably not ] but you have to admit that they are an efficient way for someone that is completely ignorant to get help setting something up. [ Ignorance CAN be cured with education - Stupidity just goes on forever ] The "wizard" holds the hand of the newbie and walks them through the steps. Power users can elect to not use them. [ The OpenSuSE installation program is basically a wizard. It asks questions and installs based on the users answers. ] Once they have done it a time or two they would be able to do it without the wizard. Think of it as a teaching tool. [ Let the flames begin *<[:oD It's cold outside and I could use the heat ]
* unix user (are there anymore?? may be students). I don't think they have problems with yast, or if there is a problem this is knowing that yast exists :-))
* other distro's users. I had to use last week a control center exacltly the same as the one proposed in the mockups. I couldn't find my way at all!! too many similar modules thus my proposal of (may be as popups) infos/summary about real module setup (for example, for NIS: 10 users on the server "Harvest"). Kde control center (V3) is not that good neither
If you have played around with Kubuntu the proposals for YaST look just like "System Settings". It is prettier to look at than YaST if that's all your looking for. Doesn't necessarily make it any better.
jdd
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On Saturday 24 November 2007 07:04:46 pm Bryen wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 17:59 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
What the heck is so confusing about "Software" in the left panel and "Software Management", "Online Update", etc in the right. OR, "Hardware" in left panel and "TV Card", Mouse", Keyboard", etc in the right.
When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there.
It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
This is the case where should be applied: "Don't touch what you don't understand." Though, you know kids, they never listen this particular advice.
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
For this is applicable sentence from kernel help that is repeated often for exotic options: "If you don't know what this means, you don't need it." This is accompanied with URL where you can pick up more information what particular option means and decide whether you need it or not.
Again, how is this self-explanatory?
It is not, and it should be pulled out of sight of normal home based desktop users. Those who need it should be able to find where it is hidden. For instance "Advanced Network Services" with tooltip help "Configuration of services that are seldom, if at all, used in home network."
That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.
That is one of reasons to start thread "Redesign of YaST Control Center", to pick up ideas how to organize existing stuff, where to put extra explanations, where to put modules. There will be no web interface, inclusion of new external services, as some others mentioned, at least not right now. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 20:21 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
This is the case where should be applied: "Don't touch what you don't understand." Though, you know kids, they never listen this particular advice.
No, such a thing has no place in Yast.
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
For this is applicable sentence from kernel help that is repeated often for exotic options: "If you don't know what this means, you don't need it." This is accompanied with URL where you can pick up more information what particular option means and decide whether you need it or not.
But to find that in the kernel you have to "go inside". Yast is a tool that makes administrators out of users: it must explain, it must be easy, it must be accessible and non dangerous. It can be as easy as firing up the browser pointed at the relevant page of the suse administration or reference manual that explains what a NIS server is, or what setting up a printer involves, at the click of mouse on a help button. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSN8MtTMYHG2NR9URAvvlAJ4gSqNqFRlSHNg3/9Zbx6nMs6HeLQCfco/a qiXCvKkcYf7uwezD4xzTkdM= =N0tZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Saturday 2007-11-24 at 20:21 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
This is the case where should be applied: "Don't touch what you don't understand." Though, you know kids, they never listen this particular advice.
No, such a thing has no place in Yast.
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
For this is applicable sentence from kernel help that is repeated often for exotic options: "If you don't know what this means, you don't need it." This is accompanied with URL where you can pick up more information what particular option means and decide whether you need it or not.
But to find that in the kernel you have to "go inside". Yast is a tool that makes administrators out of users: it must explain, it must be easy, it must be accessible and non dangerous.
FORTUNATELY, if someone is in a home environment, and just decide to create an NIS master or an NIS slave, without the other, there will be no ill effect (other than a few extra disk-head seeks on boot up, and a little bit of memory wasted on a server that doesn't need to be running) So, as far as danger is concerned, the current YaST implementation of the NIS module is *NOT* dangerous.
It can be as easy as firing up the browser pointed at the relevant page of the suse administration or reference manual that explains what a NIS server is, or what setting up a printer involves, at the click of mouse on a help button.
That could be nice -- just fork off a browser. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 25 November 2007 03:21:26 Rajko M. wrote:
This is the case where should be applied: "Don't touch what you don't understand."
That's more or less the popup you get when you start the partitioner from within yast. That's the only module I'm aware of where you can actually make irreversible changes to destroy your system -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bryen wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 17:59 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design. I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list. I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing! SuSE 9.0 was the first time I ever worked on anything other than DOS/Windows. On the other hand I had used about everything from about DOS 3/Windows 1 up through Win ME then XP. My first PC was an 8088XT. My first computer was a TI 99/4A then a CoCo.
What the heck is so confusing about "Software" in the left panel and "Software Management", "Online Update", etc in the right. OR, "Hardware" in left panel and "TV Card", Mouse", Keyboard", etc in the right.
When you open a module in YaST you get hints in the left panel to what needs to be put in the right panel. IMHO, these could use a little touching up but they are there.
It appears to me that just about everything in YaST is pretty much self explanatory.
Okay... so, as an example, in Yast > Network Services > NIS Server. How does that become self-explanatory to someone who has never heard of NIS before?
Where would YOU put NIS server? And what would you call it that would *NOT* frustrate the living hell out of people who DO know what an NIS server is, (and probably looking specifically for "NIS") If need be, it could be expanded to the full name "Network Information Server" The WORST that can happen for someone who doesn't know what NIS is this -- they open up the module, and then they either decide to play with it, or they say, "that's not what I want" and close it. The only cure for ignorance is education -- once they know what NIS is, then it's no longer a problem ... and before they know what NIS is, no amount of handholding is going to make up for the fact that they are ignorant (i.e. they LACK the knowledge) of what NIS is.
Even further... Click on Help in the NIS Server module and the following message comes up:
"Select whether to configure the NIS server as a master or a slave or not to configure a NIS server."
Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.
On that point, you're correct. But that doesn't call for a major re-write -- it calls for well-written text to pop up when a user clicks on the HELP button.
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Aaron Kulkis wrote:
If need be, it could be expanded to the full name "Network Information Server"
may be. it's also possible to use any better fitted name and have (NIS) at the end. problem is: many people want to do things hey have *seen* on a windows corporate computer. They are often ready to learn, but don't know nothing about Linux jargon. This (NIS) example is good for me, because I just had this very question asked last week: how can I have with openSUSE the centralized user system I have on windows (said like this by the asker). of course I just had to say 'NIS', formerly "yellow pages", but I'm sure other people have the question when I'm not here to answer :-) the question is way more difficult in non english/german/russian country, no manual available I just had to found a french manual for 10.2. There are nearly no more french Linux book and the few remaining are completely obsolete. I have to find my 7.2 (I missed a 9.3 french one) french manuals and print, thanks to my lazer printer, the smaller 10.1 pdf french manual (very difficult to find, it is not in rpm form) this is why the ycc should have a "newbie menu" with common, non computer specific wording (as an option, of course) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
If need be, it could be expanded to the full name "Network Information Server"
may be. it's also possible to use any better fitted name and have (NIS) at the end.
problem is: many people want to do things hey have *seen* on a windows corporate computer. They are often ready to learn, but don't know nothing about Linux jargon.
I don't think the solution is to replace well-established Unix terminology with Windows Jargon. That only leads to more confusion.
This (NIS) example is good for me, because I just had this very question asked last week: how can I have with openSUSE the centralized user system I have on windows (said like this by the asker).
of course I just had to say 'NIS', formerly "yellow pages", but I'm sure other people have the question when I'm not here to answer :-)
the question is way more difficult in non english/german/russian country, no manual available
That's a problem of documentation about NIS, no matter what you want to call it.
I just had to found a french manual for 10.2. There are nearly no more french Linux book and the few remaining are completely obsolete. I have to find my 7.2 (I missed a 9.3 french one) french manuals and print, thanks to my lazer printer, the smaller 10.1 pdf french manual (very difficult to find, it is not in rpm form)
this is why the ycc should have a "newbie menu" with common, non computer specific wording (as an option, of course)
I like that. At intermediate setting, both the 'newbie' and the real labels could be used. And in expert mode, only real labels are used. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:04 -0600, Bryen wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 17:59 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.
I'm with Billy on this thought train. YAST has been the flagship of distros since 6.1, the concept is solid as a rock. Its bullet proof, ---not idiot proof---, and should stay that way. The printed start-up guide is where explaining stuff belongs, not in the control center. In any industry, you go into the control center for two reasons: 1) you are on a guided-tour; or 2) you are ready to go to work and control something. If 2), then you better know something about what you are fixin' to do! I would not mess with the basic functionality...perhaps provide a side-bar type "lookup" dictionary if needed? It's easy enough to run the existing "help" systems in a separate window...isn't it? So why bother... Tom in NM
-- ---Bryen---
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On Sunday 25 November 2007 09:01, Tom Patton wrote:
...
I'm with Billy on this thought train. YAST has been the flagship of distros since 6.1, the concept is solid as a rock. Its bullet proof, ---not idiot proof---, and should stay that way.
Besides, when you build idiot-proof systems, nature just evolves more cunning idiots.
...
Tom in NM
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tom Patton wrote:
The printed start-up guide is where explaining stuff belongs, not in the control center.
don't forget YaST help is localized, not the manuals. people not reading english nor german have no printed manual jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 25, 2007, at 11:01 AM, Tom Patton wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:04 -0600, Bryen wrote:
On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 17:59 -0600, Billie Walsh wrote:
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Again, how is this self-explanatory? That's the point some of us are trying to make. There should be at least a brief explanation to the purpose of a module's services.
I'm with Billy on this thought train. YAST has been the flagship of distros since 6.1, the concept is solid as a rock. Its bullet proof, ---not idiot proof---, and should stay that way.
The printed start-up guide is where explaining stuff belongs, not in the control center.
In any industry, you go into the control center for two reasons: 1) you are on a guided-tour; or 2) you are ready to go to work and control something. If 2), then you better know something about what you are fixin' to do!
I would not mess with the basic functionality...perhaps provide a side-bar type "lookup" dictionary if needed? It's easy enough to run the existing "help" systems in a separate window...isn't it? So why bother...
Tom in NM
-- ---Bryen---
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There's one problem: The users are idiots. (I mean that in a nice way :)) Any new user to SUSE is going to feel like an idiot trying to figure out something (I did) and the more idiot proof the desktop can become the better, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kevin Dupuy wrote:
On Nov 24, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
I agree with everyone else. It doesn't need a "complete" redesign. A few tweaks maybe, but not a whole new design. It's functional. It works. And even a NOOB can figure out what the heck does what. I did with my first install of SuSE 9.0, AND without asking any mailing list.
I don't know how competent you were with a computer with SUSE 9.0. I remember using 9.0, and (the QT based YaST, anyway) was exactly the same. The number of YaST modules has gone up, the things YaST can do has gone up, and for a new user it can be very confusing!
COMPUTERS are confusing. When I was in college, it was, at the time, conceptually possible for one person to *thoroughly* understand EVERYTHING on a typical high-end computer...even a Cray supercomputer. That was in the 1980's. These days, just a single GPU or Sound Card is more complex than an entire Gould or CCI supermini computer capable of running 1000+ users simultaneously with decent response times. Plop someone new to computers down in front of a Windows machine, and they will be JUST AS CONFUSED. This is why most local senior-citizens centers offer CLASSES on subjects as narrow as just starting up a computer, browsing the web, and sending/receiving e-mail.
If someone can't figure out Yast I have two suggestions:
a) Return your computer to where you bought it. They are probably to stupid to own one anyway. b) Stick with Windows. Your computer on training wheels. Besides, Billy will be more than glad to trash your computer for you.
Do you know how much we all hate it when people tell users who are a little confused with Linux to just "run back to Windows"?
Some people just aren't ready to act independantly, and will only be able to switch AFTER their place of employment has switched over to Unix. Remember... 50% of the population has an IQ *BELOW* 100.
The examples on the page looked a whole lot like KDE System Settings with more functionality. If that's what your shooting for, just add modules to System Settings.
That is an idea, but it still doesn't help the 'figuring out which module to use' part.
Yast is, hands down, the best control center for any distro I have looked at.
I agree.
In fact, it compares favorably to the equivalent tools in HP-UX, AIX and Solaris.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control
Center.
Two thoughts:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Here's the thing: YaST isn't broken, since YaST is basically just a container for launching the YaST modules. ON that note, a bunch of icons in a window is perfect! But, a new user might not know where to go to do certain things. This is what is being discussed.
Right...all that needs to be done is to tweak and/or widen the tree, rather than "a radical new design" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center I had a look at the pages and in the section Hardware I'm missing the graphics tablets. In fact, it is hidden deep in the "Graphics Card and Monitor" section ... It should have it's own entry point in the hardware
Hi all, Thomas Goettlicher wrote: section regardless whatever Yast module is started finally to configure it. The same is valid for the mouse. Graphics tablet and mouse belong to the hardware like printer and scanner and that it ended up in the "Graphics Card and Monitor" section is driven by the fact that it is configured by the x11 module, but not driven from any usability viewpoint. Rgds, Stephan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 24, 2007, at 8:07 AM, Stephan Hegel wrote:
Hi all,
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center I had a look at the pages and in the section Hardware I'm missing the graphics tablets. In fact, it is hidden deep in the "Graphics Card and Monitor" section ... It should have it's own entry point in the hardware
Thomas Goettlicher wrote: section regardless whatever Yast module is started finally to configure it.
The same is valid for the mouse.
Graphics tablet and mouse belong to the hardware like printer and scanner and that it ended up in the "Graphics Card and Monitor" section is driven by the fact that it is configured by the x11 module, but not driven from any usability viewpoint.
Rgds, Stephan.
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I agree. Perhaps an idea is to split up SaX2 into launching all the functionality from separate modules, like differant ones for "Mouse", "Keyboard", "Display Configuration", "Tablet". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 23 November 2007 12:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Am I the only one who read this last paragraph? I see a lot of discussion on this list, but on the wiki page - where they actually requested the ideas - I see absolutely no updates since the start of the discussion Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-11-25 at 03:32 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Friday 23 November 2007 12:17:40 Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Am I the only one who read this last paragraph? I see a lot of discussion on this list, but on the wiki page - where they actually requested the ideas - I see absolutely no updates since the start of the discussion
I find better suited a mail list for a discussion than a wiki page. First you have to log in. Then, when you type your piece and save it, you are told of a conflict, and when you solve it you enter another one while it is saved... Or you write something and it is changed later by somebody else. No, a wiki is a different culture altogether. Perhaps in the discussion link of the wiki. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSOJdtTMYHG2NR9URAgalAJ0Tx6vGtdRo/QDbQgXfawaS8WDlwgCdEcc6 h0DlHL6jKCNn5oMvyTLRBiE= =yRru -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Anders Johansson wrote:
here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Am I the only one who read this last paragraph? I see a lot of discussion on this list, but on the wiki page - where they actually requested the ideas - I see absolutely no updates since the start of the discussion
I did and don't think it's necessary to update the wiki before having reached some sort of agrement on the list. for example, this "redesign" (as proposed by the mokups) is already used in others distros (don't remember if it's Mandriva or ubuntu) and I had to use it last week *and it's a mess, impossible to use* original (install time) YaST summary is much better, giving not only the module name but the acrual setup summary, so if you don't understand the module name, you may understand the setting (for example, if you don't understand the "repository setup" name, knowing that it's on "download.opensuse.org" may help you) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thanks for that many postings (>150!!) and the discussion with valuable ideas. I will collect these proposals from your mails and will add them to the wiki page. Please add your future ideas directly to the wiki page, as I don't want them to get dusty in the list archives. There was a little bit confusion about the concern of my original posting. Please apologize my unclear wording. The issue was about organizing the modules based on the problems faced with having a lot of yast modules. The term "Radical Redesign" meant that we not just want to rearrange the modules in new sections or to hide modules within the sections but to find a radical _new way to organize_ a vast amount of modules. Please refer to the mentioned wiki page to further clarify the purpose of this thread as it already contains notes from previous discussions and some ideas as a pointer. Looking forward to your contribution at: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center Thanks Thomas --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Nov 23, 2007 3:17 AM, Thomas Goettlicher <thomas.goettlicher@suse.de> wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
--- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
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Hello, It would be nice to have a module that pertains to only managing YaST modules, ie: adding, removing, and enabling, disabling modules. Although you can do this already through the package manager I think it takes some time for people to realize that there are other YaST modules that they can install to manage software on their system. Thanks, - Jake
Hi everyone, thanks for all your comments on the YaST Control Center redesign so far. Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish The main thought beyond that idea is to increase the size of the modules when the user has used it. Similar to tag clouds, modules that are used often become bigger and therefore * easier to detect * easier to open because the size the user needs to hit with his mouse was increased. The different size would also serve as a kind of "Recently Used" reminder. The "HowTo Guide" link will lead to a HowTo/Troubleshooting Wiki. This should serve as a replacement for "help". This makes sense, because studies show, that due to bad experiences users don't expect any help beyond a help button. The use of similar icons in the service section represents modules that are not installed yet. I would like to get your comments on that idea. Please note, that the categorization and the modules were picked by chance. The important thing is the idea, that is behind that. And maybe it is worth to give it a try as it is something no control center has yet. Even Apple doesn't have such kind of thing :-) Best regards, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish
Unless I've missed something profound, that just looks like an eye candy change, not "a radical and innovative redesign". Also for me personally, it's visually unattractive. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dave Howorth wrote:
Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish
Unless I've missed something profound, that just looks like an eye candy change, not "a radical and innovative redesign". Also for me personally, it's visually unattractive.
Agree. I think tags are a good idea, but a tag _cloud_ might not work as well. I would say that the main benefit from using tags would be to make it easier to find what you're looking for if you don't know what YaST calls it, not to find a new way to represent the modules visually. - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHTX98Fcf72sjD2+QRAkMCAJ0feWPIHZKRfa2zUKi3aTsE/b7c0gCdHcAm kdhj91I02ZlUPAvBj/Xhhlo= =EWRo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 28 November 2007 15:13:21 Dave Howorth wrote:
Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish
Unless I've missed something profound, that just looks like an eye candy change, not "a radical and innovative redesign". Also for me personally, it's visually unattractive.
+1 I also don't see the point: modules i use often, like software install, should be at the first spot* in the section, and guess what: if i used the module 100 times before, i'm able to find it again. * that doesn't mean that it should change the order, just to kill this idea upfront :-) i hate content that changes, except i made the change. Just make it possible to change the order of the icons. -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch@suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish
The main thought beyond that idea is to increase the size of the modules when the user has used it. Similar to tag clouds, modules that are used often become bigger and therefore * easier to detect * easier to open because the size the user needs to hit with his mouse was increased. The different size would also serve as a kind of "Recently Used" reminder. I'm not really convinced about the appearance: it looks a bit cluttered with the small and big icons and small and big text. Personal impression, of course.
I would give, e.g. the hardware section a structure with a few often used icons on the left and a "more" button to the right which allows to make more hardware visiable and activate/promote more hardware to appear on the left as a icon. And the user should be also able to hide unused icons/hardware behind the "more" button. Rearranging the icons by the user would be nice too. Kind regards, Stephan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi everyone,
thanks for all your comments on the YaST Control Center redesign so far.
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish
The main thought beyond that idea is to increase the size of the modules when the user has used it. Similar to tag clouds, modules that are used often become bigger and therefore * easier to detect * easier to open because the size the user needs to hit with his mouse was increased. The different size would also serve as a kind of "Recently Used" reminder.
The "HowTo Guide" link will lead to a HowTo/Troubleshooting Wiki. This should serve as a replacement for "help". This makes sense, because studies show, that due to bad experiences users don't expect any help beyond a help button.
The use of similar icons in the service section represents modules that are not installed yet.
I would like to get your comments on that idea. Please note, that the categorization and the modules were picked by chance. The important thing is the idea, that is behind that. And maybe it is worth to give it a try as it is something no control center has yet. Even Apple doesn't have such kind of thing :-)
Best regards,
Martin
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign
Well, lets see.............. The different module icons are arranged horizontal rather than vertical. It shows module icons for more than one grouping at a time. Hmmmmm???????? YUP! That's pretty radical alright. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi everyone,
thanks for all your comments on the YaST Control Center redesign so far.
Please find another suggestion for a radical and innovative redesign on: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center#Tagcloudish
The main thought beyond that idea is to increase the size of the modules when the user has used it. Similar to tag clouds, modules that are used often become bigger and therefore * easier to detect * easier to open because the size the user needs to hit with his mouse was increased. The different size would also serve as a kind of "Recently Used" reminder.
The "HowTo Guide" link will lead to a HowTo/Troubleshooting Wiki. This should serve as a replacement for "help". This makes sense, because studies show, that due to bad experiences users don't expect any help beyond a help button.
The use of similar icons in the service section represents modules that are not installed yet.
I would like to get your comments on that idea. Please note, that the categorization and the modules were picked by chance. The important thing is the idea, that is behind that. And maybe it is worth to give it a try as it is something no control center has yet. Even Apple doesn't have such kind of thing :-)
Best regards,
Martin
Needed to sleep on this ... My first impression is that it is more likely to create some confusion as it does not focus the user on the tools available to do a paricular task too well... As the number of subviews increased the possibility of user confusion is likely to increase.... I would be more inclined to retain the scrollable sidebar but revamp the the main view to either contains a line of selected tabs at top (or bottom) as secondary selection tool and retain the main window as a list or display of icons. This gives a 2D onscreen focus control. The navigation for the user would be to use side bar and top tab to select (or focus) on a view, but the internal navigation organisation could be a lattice as suggested elsewhere. ... this should be extensible that could allow users to customise a personal view.... The "howto" link could zoom in and out on the the required level of documentation .... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHTouAasN0sSnLmgIRAjRrAJ9bdWKTWTnwxhe/z2j/Ei6O021eDACgk4TH yP8OMeASSiJ8uoRL4l7u+MQ= =xFFP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi G T,
this should be extensible that could allow users to customise a personal view....
That sounds interesting. I will try to keep that in mind :-)
The "howto" link could zoom in and out on the the required level of documentation ....
I am not sure, whether I got your point. How do you determine the required level of documentation? Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi G T,
this should be extensible that could allow users to customise a personal view....
That sounds interesting. I will try to keep that in mind :-)
The "howto" link could zoom in and out on the the required level of documentation ....
I am not sure, whether I got your point. How do you determine the required level of documentation?
Cu,
Martin
More a level of scope... Most people will first ask questions in the following order.. later when they become familiar with a particular module they may only be asking the last question... What does it do? How do I use it? OK I know what is does and how to use it, but what does this mean? or I want to do X?. So a dialogue like... Select icon button label status -> More info click one button label status -> How to .... Display message box with basic info click two button label status -> man | Reference Info .... Howto window opened click three button label status -> greyed|inactive man or reference window opened I know dynamic button labelling is possible in Java.. do not know whether it can be done in QT... (definitely possible with MFC...)... There is a question on whether it should be possible for expert users to go directly to the last question (and how this would work), and whether three clicks is acceptable. Whether windows should be closed after selection, external, or hierarchical is a probably something that can be decided after people have tried options out... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHTsVCasN0sSnLmgIRAvpqAKCwfeUd7PMMZ9yoV8sD6tO5dml1OQCdGbaq yuTRi8oIGIJO45juZyFbkNM= =0f1c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
G T Smith wrote:
What does it do? How do I use it? OK I know what is does and how to use it, but what does this mean? or I want to do X?.
what is sure, we need more info about the various modules right on the wiki. This is way OT here, but what is in scope is than YaST is moving so fast the manual can't follow. I hope the present survey will give results worth at least 5 years (or 5 distro version) and we will be able to document YaST fully (on a user point of view) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:
G T Smith wrote:
What does it do? How do I use it? OK I know what is does and how to use it, but what does this mean? or I want to do X?.
what is sure, we need more info about the various modules right on the wiki.
This is way OT here, but what is in scope is than YaST is moving so fast the manual can't follow.
I hope the present survey will give results worth at least 5 years (or 5 distro version) and we will be able to document YaST fully (on a user point of view)
No disagreement in general on your point here. Knowing the questions that are likely to asked is not probably useful if the answers dont exist, but having a question framework could be useful in framing what answers are required...
jdd
- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHTuyCasN0sSnLmgIRAnyIAJ4sNvWvLOtIr0i4t/zkQSB+fXwsCwCgr7Rp M/FFTWAHXP4Ej+dSo/LQW/o= =fEff -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi everyone, I have read all your emails now. Many thanks for the valuable discussion and the huge amount of good ideas. I have added them to the wikipage: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center Please feel free to add ideas, rearrange the sections or to draw mockups. Thanks a lot! Thomas On Fri, 2007-11-23 at 12:17 +0100, Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
we want to redesign the YaST Control Center. Therefore we are looking for a radical new design.
This is your chance to share your ideas regarding YaST Control Center.
Please feel free to contribute with mockups and (unconventional) ideas here: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Thanks, Thomas
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-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have read all your emails now. Many thanks for the valuable discussion and the huge amount of good ideas. I have added them to the wikipage: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Please feel free to add ideas, rearrange the sections or to draw mockups.
really good work, thanks. I want to insist on one aspect : openSUSE (as probably any large scope Linux distribution) needs to be educational (help making people wiser). This is not only YaST related, but YaST and precisely it's control center is really the center of the openSUSE administration and so there should be a continual link between the openSUSE admin manual (on line or on disk) and the YaST Control Center and modules. That is why it's so important to have links from YCC to the openSUSE admin manual and reversely links in the openSUSE admin manual to YCC in this respect I like much the two level popups openoffice have (light popups or more complete ones). For example also, I just notice on ebay than now when keeping the mouse on a user link, a popup say "wait" then display the corresponding user page. The same thing for the modules icon should be really nice, nothing if only passing the mouse and a hole page if keeping the mouse on one. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 29 November 2007 12:56:34 jdd wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have read all your emails now. Many thanks for the valuable discussion and the huge amount of good ideas. I have added them to the wikipage: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Please feel free to add ideas, rearrange the sections or to draw mockups.
really good work, thanks.
I want to insist on one aspect : openSUSE (as probably any large scope Linux distribution) needs to be educational (help making people wiser).
<snip> A customer asked me previously if it was possible to see the actual commands that the control center was doing, e.g. when modifying volumes or creating a new VM setup for Xen, log the commands that are being performed in the background (when relevant) and optionally display these to the use if requested. It wouldn't be a huge change, I think, and would improve the user's knowledge of system administration. Cheers Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dňa Thursday 29 November 2007 14:39:51 Pete Connolly ste napísal:
On Thursday 29 November 2007 12:56:34 jdd wrote:
Thomas Goettlicher wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have read all your emails now. Many thanks for the valuable discussion and the huge amount of good ideas. I have added them to the wikipage: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/New_Control_Center
Please feel free to add ideas, rearrange the sections or to draw mockups.
really good work, thanks.
I want to insist on one aspect : openSUSE (as probably any large scope Linux distribution) needs to be educational (help making people wiser).
<snip>
A customer asked me previously if it was possible to see the actual commands that the control center was doing, e.g. when modifying volumes or creating a new VM setup for Xen, log the commands that are being performed in the background (when relevant) and optionally display these to the use if requested. It wouldn't be a huge change, I think, and would improve the user's knowledge of system administration.
It is a huge change, as there is quite a number of commands and you are interested in only some of them. Plus other challenges, like change of the configuration files should be logged too. All the information is available in y2log, but it's almost impossible to figure out the details from there. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 29 November 2007 13:45:41 Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Dňa Thursday 29 November 2007 14:39:51 Pete Connolly ste napísal:
A customer asked me previously if it was possible to see the actual commands that the control center was doing, e.g. when modifying volumes or creating a new VM setup for Xen, log the commands that are being performed in the background (when relevant) and optionally display these to the use if requested. It wouldn't be a huge change, I think, and would improve the user's knowledge of system administration.
It is a huge change, as there is quite a number of commands and you are interested in only some of them. Plus other challenges, like change of the configuration files should be logged too.
Aha, ok. I don't understand a lot of the internals of the control center.
All the information is available in y2log, but it's almost impossible to figure out the details from there.
I'd noticed that :) A good filtering method would be useful, or even just an enhanced filtering method in the misc/system log viewer - something that would isolate certain types of actions being taken. It's a pretty big log and I can't claim to understand what a large percentage of them are recording. We've probably moved away from the original discussion with this... Cheers Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (51)
-
Aaron Kulkis -
Anders Johansson -
Andrew Johnson -
Bart Whiteley -
Benji Weber -
Billie Walsh -
Bob Ewart -
Bryen -
Carlos E. R. -
Chris Worley -
Clayton -
Dave Howorth -
Druid -
François Pinard -
G T Smith -
Greg Freemyer -
Hans Witvliet -
Jake Conk -
James Knott -
Jan Tiggy -
Jason Craig -
jdd -
Jon Clausen -
Josef Assad -
K.R. Foley -
Ken Schneider -
Kevin Dupuy -
Ladislav Slezak -
LLLActive＠GMX.Net -
Marcus Meissner -
Martin Lasarsch -
Martin Schmidkunz -
Mike -
mourik jan c heupink -
Myrosia Dzikovska -
Patrick Shanahan -
Pete Connolly -
Philippe Landau -
Rajko M. -
Randall R Schulz -
Robert Smits -
Rodney Baker -
Rodrigo Moya -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Ruben Safir -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Stephan Hegel -
Steve Jeppesen -
Terje J. Hanssen -
Thomas Goettlicher -
Tom Patton