harryc wrote:

...

In fact this discussion shows we mostly lack of link between active members of all sorts.

I agree with this concept, but still fail to see how a seperate webforum is going to get us there.

if we have such sort of collective mean of discussion, I see no more necessity to have a new/other forum, we could keep the existing one. and redirect to the "collaborative forum page" any people jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

harryc wrote:

What would this collaborative forum page look like? Links to each mailing list, forum, and a descritption of each? Don't you already have that here? http://www.opensuse.org/Communicate

yes, but spread by language (this will probably happen soon anyway) and inforced by a reciproqual confidence now all enquiries are redirected to the suse-e mailing list, which is _very_ high traffic and so not so well suited for it's nedds jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

Lørdag 28 januar 2006 15:30, skrev houghi: snip

Due to this I went and looked at the page http://www.opensuse.org/Communicate and saw it was a bit of a mess, especially the comunity part, so I cleaned it up and what did I find? There already IS a suse forum, although in Polish only. snip

houghi

I made some changes, cause we can't have the Novell forum at the top. That forum in it's current state will scare any newbie running to the hills. I also belive it's better to have the different languages clearly marked. Iz

Lørdag 28 januar 2006 18:59, skrev jdd:

...

...

http://www.opensuse.org/Communicate and saw it was a bit of a mess, especially the comunity part, so I cleaned it up

please don't always tag as "international" the english links. this may be in fact true, but others languages forums are also international (at least french, spanish, portugeses and sorry for the ones I forget)

:-)

jdd

Alright, edit done. Even if I would say that english is "The" internet language. That being said I would prefer that my native (Norwegian) tounge were the most used language, I don't see that happening any time soon :P Iz

Kenneth Schneider wrote:

On Sat, 2006-01-28 at 07:36 -0500, harryc wrote:

...

Dear list, I've read every single thread/post on this topic, and as a SUSE webforum user and moderator I have this to say. It is apparent to me that many of you have never used a webforum or have used one (that is not designed and run correctly) and have subsequently given up on them. A well managed and designed webforum is both a technical haven for idea exchange and a place for anyone (I don't care if you are an expert or a newbie) to come and get assistance with a problem or to chat up the latest topic. Both of the major unofficial SUSE webforums do a great job in this respect and pull community members together without regard to who they are or their experience level. I'd respectfully ask that you each give us a week of browsing/posting before you deliver any decision as to our effectiveness.

A link would be nice for the un-informed. When I use http://Suseforums.net I get a message that "This domain has been registered for one of our customers".

As I stated, the forum is currently down for a server upgrade, but I will commit to posting to this list once it is back up. Here is the link; http://www.suseforums.net/ Harryc --

Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

On the list, today, you stated this - I've had no idea for about a week or so now, and thought perhaps the owners sold the domain.

That is not through any fault here is it? I joined this mailing list today.

It has happened alot recently with linux, and floss in general, forums, and its one of the reasons I support an "official" forum - one that will not be sold off and be dismantled.

This seems like kind of an alarmist reaction (to no facts associated with suseforums.net) rather than a valid argument for a single webforum. There is no intention that I am aware of to close the current forum. Harryc --

Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

No, but I mention this as an issue because there was nothing in the forum that I saw posted about it. At about 10am one day I started seeing "account suspended", which looked like someone hadn't paid the bill :)

Not a big problem or anything, but it has been down a bit, and not many know whats going on. Might have been a good idea to atleast have sent out an administrative email (which is a capability of the forum, admins sending an email to all active users).

Did you ever have a service (like your electricity) turned off without notice? Well, that's what happenned here. The hosting provider threw a switch and asked questions later. And no it was not because of 'not paying a bill'. It was because of over-utilization on the shared server. There was no time to notify anyone. Obviously if there was time we would have done so. Ok?

Considering the issues that can't be discussed at an official forum anyways, I feel its more a supplemental forum, and introduction for users thats easy to find. When they start asking... other... questions, they would end up elsewhere for that information. However, should anything unexpected happen to an unofficial forum, the owners/admins/mods would be able to make a post on the official forum stating the situation.

So, I see the idea of an official forum as a complimentary addition to the existing community.

I see where you are going with this. Considering the high integrity with which we operate the forum in question, I'd hate to be associated with 'the site to go to for other help'. IMHO, that is not a reputation we'd like to have, and frankly don't deserve. If the 'new' site is not run by Novell, then what is the problem with giving 'other' type of help? Again, I think more is better when it comes to any way that we can help the commuity, so in the case of adding another forum I have no fundamenal objection and I agree with you. I'd be interested in seeing a blueprint for this forum, and I particularly like this webring concept, although admittedly I don't technically know how it would work. Harryc --

Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

"Other" meaning can't legally be discussed on an official forum, as in media playback and such. I dont exactly see how that would effect any reputation, since that information is already on the forum.

But that's the point. If the forum is not run by Novell, what makes it 'official' legally?

Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

The fact that its hosted on a Novell owned-server, ie: forums.opensuse.org. As is my understanding, it would be administered by Novell, but daily operations would be handled by the community (as has been the general consensus with volunteers on the list).

Ok, I missed that discussion. If it's on a Novell owned-server I can see where the forums hands would be tied. Harryc --

* houghi [01-28-06 09:41]:

Just a question. Why are there two forums already there? Why not just one and join your forces? Either you say that you should not devide forums and then one is enough, or you think there is a need for more then one forum. and that could then be 2, 3, 5, 20.

Please read the thread instead of just posing questions. This has been answered several times previous. There *was* one forum and it split due to differences of opinion related to management. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

houghi wrote:

Just a question. Why are there two forums already there? Why not just one and join your forces? Either you say that you should not devide forums and then one is enough, or you think there is a need for more then one forum. and that could then be 2, 3, 5, 20.

houghi

I think there is plenty of room in the community for more than 2,3, 5 forums. Variety is good here. In fact it could be argued that only having one forum is akin to having all of your eggs in one basket. What happens if the forum goes down? In addition, what happens if a member doesn't agree with how the 'one' forum is run, or isn't getting the right answers there? Where does he go then? What makes folks here so sure this 'one' forum would be the ultimate answer to any members support dreams? I am not in a position to comment on the split of the current forums. you'd have to talk to the forums Admins. Harryc --

harryc wrote:

I think there is plenty of room in the community for more than 2,3, 5 forums. Variety is good here.

so it's good to have a central point to go where, for example, the forum admins could explain what make they forum different :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

harryc wrote:

Here's my perception of what your idea might look like

no, it's absolutely not that. sorry to have been misunderstood. we, at opensuse.org, are often asked by users where can they ask questions. we redirect them to the communicate page. As was said today, this page is a mess... It was seen that the actual mailing lists could not support all the burden, like the one seen on others distributions sites. You see yourself that your own forum was overloaded. so the first idea was to create our own one. not every body (mostly on the experienced side) like the phpBB like forum, so the discussion. but, discussing, ideas come :-) and so we looked at the already existing forums. The problem is that we have no real contact with them, not beeing users we not even know who are the users and the admins. here my think that the main problem is there. we must know better each others. Forums moderators can greatly benefit from power users knowledge and opensuse staff (both Novell and community members) can benefit from the forums moderators knowledge. so my proposal to share these knowledge, learn from each others, learn also to trust each others. This mean some time spend discussing here or on a similar list, closed one (or of limited subject). for that we needs to meet each others. I was really very surprised to see that nor you nor Damian was subscribers of the present list, for now the central opensuse point. We had some difficulties (small but real) to contact you. this should no more happen. for example, your server problem could have been solved best (by temporary hosting, for example) or advertised by the other members (wait a little, the problemm is transient). :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

harryc wrote:

I agree that nothing but good can come from idea exchange here.

for sure :-) You know

one of the most frustrating things as a forum mod is not knowing the answer to (or where to go to get it) for some of the higher end technical problems prersented in the forums.

frankly, I made _years_ before beeing able to use bugzilla :-). Now I can do quite easily and I'm puzzled to see the Novell devs answering (or asking for details) _minutes_ after the post :-). I had also a year ago an experience with a very high traffic news group (1000 - one thousand) post a day :-! on my ISP site, with two or 3 corps only to anwer (and some good will guys). I noticed that these corps posted with they own real e-mail, and, very politely, asked questions. relevant questions, of course (I was off the net for 3 months :-(), I was answered very well, cared of... on an other such forum (much less populated, but open) I could ask the real admin of my ISP server and have answers. this if very rewarding :-) but in our problem, we could go even further. I'm sure, time giving, you have a friendlyness with the moderators of your forum. Houghi, Jensen, Eberhart, Sonja, I never met, but through this list I feel confident with them (and I hope they do with me :-) I we could have such a relationship with forum admins, I'm sure the problems we are writing on would be much simpler :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:

harryc wrote:

...

Here's my perception of what your idea might look like

no, it's absolutely not that. sorry to have been misunderstood.

we, at opensuse.org, are often asked by users where can they ask questions. we redirect them to the communicate page. As was said today, this page is a mess...

Yes, unfortunately it is. But we're working our way slowly through the community and I'm sure we'll be able to come up with something better structured and easier to understand in some weeks' or months' time.

It was seen that the actual mailing lists could not support all the burden, like the one seen on others distributions sites. You see yourself that your own forum was overloaded. so the first idea was to create our own one. not every body (mostly on the experienced side) like the phpBB like forum, so the discussion.

Yes but we don't need to discuss it further, we need web forums.

but, discussing, ideas come :-) and so we looked at the already existing forums. The problem is that we have no real contact with them, not beeing users we not even know who are the users and the admins. here my think that the main problem is there. we must know better each others.

Exactly, that is a big issue. The admins and at least part of the moderators of all those (open)SUSE forums must be at least on this list, as it is the central communication channel for everything around the openSUSE community. Yes, I really mean "must". We need to have at least one communication channel where everyone who's active in the community can be contacted, asked for opinion, asked for advice. If it ends up in being too high-traffic, we can still think about solutions (and it would be a sign that we are a very active and healthy community indeed). What we are actually doing right now is to put the pieces together. SUSE has a community since quite some time but the problem is that because SUSE was rather closed and/or private to parts of the community (at least, nothing comparable to what is happening right now), most parts of that community didn't have a binding link between them. IMO, that link is this list. This email really made me realize that what we're lacking at the moment is not web forums or an open build service. Right now, we need to get everyone involved and push into the same direction (more or less, at least). IMHO we really need to have a single communication channel for everything around community (i.e. this mailing-list). Everyone who is actively involved in the openSUSE community should be subscribed here. It is highly beneficial to everyone, also because we need to know ourselves better, know what people are doing, what exists, what's lacking, etc... IMO the various aspects and channels of the community are: - - mailing-lists - - web forums - - IRC (#opensuse and #suse on freenode) - - bugzilla - - community packagers (packman, suser-*, ulb, ...) and hosting (Eberhard, others) - - the opensuse wiki + some other community wikis and "unofficial" sites (how they call themselves) - - Novell's staff involved into Linux (openSUSE staff, SUSE staff, Ximian, ......) - - planetsuse.org Now, not everyone should be subscribed on this list, but at least some people from every "part" of the community, as cited above.

Forum moderators can greatly benefit from power users knowledge and opensuse staff (both Novell and community members) can benefit from the forums moderators knowledge.

Exactly. Forum moderators benefit from direct contact with Novell/SUSE staff, packagers (community+SUSE), as well as some other folks who are very active in the SUSE community since years. On the other hand, the others can also benefit from web forum moderators because you guys (and IRC) are the most exposed to beginners, and your experience and feedback is most valuable.

so my proposal to share these knowledge, learn from each others, learn also to trust each others. This mean some time spend discussing here or on a similar list, closed one (or of limited subject). for that we needs to meet each others.

Yes, exactly.

I was really very surprised to see that nor you nor Damian was subscribers of the present list, for now the central opensuse point. We had some difficulties (small but real) to contact you. this should no more happen.

Indeed, that _must_ not happen. Now we have the chance, at last, to really build up a community and that also means that we have to talk to each other, be in contact. At least that's my understanding of it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's just me, but well... that's how other similar communities work (KDE, GNOME, Fedora, Debian, ...) ;) Now, it's really a pity that so many active people in the community are not subscribed here, not reading this, not giving their feedback... The initial kickoff had to come from Novell+SUSE, but now it's starting to be up to us, the community, to make things happen. We can't always say "Novell has to do this, has to do that", we have to get our act together. Novell/SUSE is putting more and more into our own hands, and it's up to us to work together, organize ourselfs as a real, linked community and just do it, not always sit and wait. IMO it's on this list that it has to happen. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD2/LPr3NMWliFcXcRAq5xAJ9Yb1HduNbdaB70j1DN2nk1tCsB0wCggsO2 tBTlQji6U/6hm/Uhw39dv2g= =Wh1t -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

martin mcleod wrote:

Yes, well said as always, Pascal

Regards,

33_hertz ( mod @ www.suseforums.net- soon back online with a dedicated server ) and list member from the beginning :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Pascal, I know you by reputation and I respect your words, they make sense. The one thing that bothered me in an earlier email was when jdd mentioned that "We had some difficulties (small but real) to contact you." I'd like to point out it is relatively easy to contact staff or Admins at any number of forums. You simply need to know where to look. For example, at suselinuxsupport.de, you just need to go to the member search, then select the pulldown for moderators (or admins) at the bottom of the screen and click go. Email links are right there. If you click on their member name you can usually see a selection to send them a personal message as well. Hopefully you'll teach us some tricks for mailing lists ;). http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?act=members Harryc --

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Please don't hassle. The "step of today" was: we REALLY have started now to communicate with two existing english-spoken forums and one german-spoken forum, and my guess is: it was all in harmony. So the presence has a solid chance to build a good future.

Cheers -e

has·sle n. 1. An argument or a fight. 2. Trouble; bother. I really don't think I was involved in either activity, but ok. Lets celebrate the step. Harryc --

Hi, On Sat, 28 Jan 2006, martin mcleod wrote:

Yes, well said as always, Pascal

Very much seconded. In my guess, the strongest aspect in Pascal's voice is: we have to "glue" the existing, and not to "organize" something new. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Johannes Kastl wrote:

On 01/29/2006 01:33 AM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

In my guess, the strongest aspect in Pascal's voice is: we have to "glue" the existing, and not to "organize" something new.

Start opensuse-moderators? As opensuse@opensuse.org hast too much traffic, maybe mods and admins of the forums would like to post there?

Probably a good idea, but the moderators should decide it. So let's try to gather them here first. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, linux_learner wrote:

On 1/29/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Johannes Kastl wrote:

...

On 01/29/2006 01:33 AM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

...

In my guess, the strongest aspect in Pascal's voice is: we have to "glue" the existing, and not to "organize" something new.

Start opensuse-moderators? As opensuse@opensuse.org hast too much traffic, maybe mods and admins of the forums would like to post there?

Probably a good idea, but the moderators should decide it. So let's try to gather them here first. ;-))

i am a mod from suselinuxsupport and have been discussing this at length with pascal. we agree that we need to intigrate. the question is; what is the best way?

Good to hear this. It shows we are on the road. ;-))

there are many complexities surrounding the issue. from legalities to community. all these need to be ironed out before things can proceed. move to quickly and it will fail. no matter how we proceed, someone's feeling are going to get hurt.

Noone's feeling should get hurt. SUSE is just "collecting" the existing community and not building a concurrent new one. From many official statements I see a good "respect" about what has "grown in the wild" already.

perhaps a way is to have the different forums and projects focus on certain areas. maybe one on documentation, one on development, one on community (chit chat and chill out), one on technical support, and so on.

The user is the one to decide this, and in my guess it would be very hard to guide a new user with his first problem here or there by categories. So the existing forums should not run concurrent, but coexisting with a good communication. If practice would show some day that moderator XX at forum YY is by far the best expert for theme ZZ, all the other moderators could give a hint in their personal forum. That should be sufficient. So it would be a very good effort to get a tight communication between all the existing forum moderators, and I hope this is almost a null-task already now. ;-)) I would like to see Novell/SUSE to invite all the existing forum moderators to a special "forum coordination meeting" during FOSDEM, paying journey and hotel (but not food). ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, martin mcleod wrote:

(but not food). ;-))--

This is how us hard-working mods are to be rewarded? With starvation? :-D

No; but _IF_ it happens, you will get such a mental food that any physical food would be wasted. ;-)) I do not want to cut any goodies Novell/SUSE eventually could spend, but the goal is to coordinate some "already living" individuals (i.e, "having food"), and not to push a Frankenstein monster into life. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi Martin, On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, martin mcleod wrote:

Hi Eberhard. Glad to hear it. ;-))

BTW, www.suseforums.net is now back in business, thanks to the Admins doing some overtime at the weekend. We're now on a dedicated server and look forward to more new members.

Good news. I will instantly register now at your forum. Logged in. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On 01/30/2006 02:42 AM martin mcleod wrote:

BTW, www.suseforums.net is now back in business, thanks to the Admins doing some overtime at the weekend. We're now on a dedicated server and look forward to more new members.

Nice to hear. Could you start a discussion like Henne did in Linux-Club? Hear what your users have to say and think about this? And if you do, could you post a link? Thanks, OJ -- I think a nerd is a person who uses the telephone to talk to other people about telephones. And a computer nerd therefore is somebody who uses a computer in order to use a computer. (Douglas Adams in "Triumph of the Nerds")

Hi, On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, houghi wrote:

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 01:05:43AM +0000, martin mcleod wrote:

...

(but not food). ;-))--

This is how us hard-working mods are to be rewarded? With starvation? :-D

If food is only 'solids' then there won't be a problem. Pleanty of luiquid stuff in Brussels. If by foof you also mean beer, then it is a very bad deal. :-)

Belgian beer is no beer. It has a taste of medicine or fruit or anything else strange (I have tasted only 3 types yet) - a real "german tradition" beer only has to contain "Hopfen & Malz", nothing else. We have a "Reinheits-Gebot" (pureness requirement) in Germany per law for beer (showing that our politicians indeed know what they talk about on this matter), and I really can tell you: each mouthfull has double volume if I can trust the german "Reinheits-Gebot". Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, martin mcleod wrote:

On 1/30/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Belgian beer is no beer.

It has a taste of medicine or fruit or anything else strange (I have tasted only 3 types yet) - a real "german tradition" beer only has to contain "Hopfen & Malz", nothing else. We have a "Reinheits-Gebot" (pureness requirement) in Germany per law for beer (showing that our politicians indeed know what they talk about on this matter), and I really can tell you: each mouthfull has double volume if I can trust the german "Reinheits-Gebot".

Hahaha. If the beer I was given at the Holstein Brewery in Hamburg a few

...

years ago is anything to go by, you are correct. That stuff was potent.

EVERY german beer has to contain only "Hopfen & Malz". Every additional chemicals are forbidden, by law. ;-)) So you can be sure the Holsten beer has brought you to a 100% "legal state". ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, martin mcleod wrote:

On 1/30/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

... I did not see anything from you here... Maybe you saved some Holsten, and now you have opened 'em? Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 03:16:29AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Belgian beer is no beer.

It has a taste of medicine or fruit or anything else strange (I have tasted only 3 types yet) - a real "german tradition" beer only has to contain "Hopfen & Malz", nothing else.

Traditional, yes. Although there are some exeptions.

We have a "Reinheits-Gebot" (pureness requirement) in Germany per law for beer (showing that our politicians indeed know what they talk about on this matter), and I really can tell you: each mouthfull has double volume if I can trust the german "Reinheits-Gebot".

The "Reinheits-Gebot" is not a law anymore. Several breweries in Germany do not brew by the "Reinheits-Gebot" anymore. The law has been overruled by a European law. So that trust of yours is now more marketing then reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot Most German breweries continued to comply with the Biergesetz, often claiming compliance with the Reinheitsgebot even when it is patently incorrect (for example, for wheat beers, which were prohibited by the Reinheitsgebot), using this compliance as a valuable marketing tool. and When it was in effect, the law drew criticism from foreign brewers as a form of protectionism that allowed West Germany to prohibit non-compliant imports, even high-quality beers from countries such as Belgium and the United Kingdom with their own long brewing traditions. And last but not least http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/reinheit.htm Let's do the conversation about this over some lemonade at FOSDEM. Can we get a devroom for this? houghi -- There was an old man of the port Whose prick was remarkably short. When he got into bed, The old woman said, "This isn't a prick; it's a wart!"

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

So it would be a very good effort to get a tight communication between all the existing forum moderators, and I hope this is almost a null-task already now. ;-))

remains to know how best. if we talk only of _foums_ (not mailing-lists, news or wikis), should be a forum, because it's what they are confidents with

I would like to see Novell/SUSE to invite all the existing forum moderators to a special "forum coordination meeting" during FOSDEM, paying journey and hotel (but not food). ;-))

good idea, but quite difficult for foreign languages forums :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html

On 01/30/2006 09:43 AM jdd wrote:

don't you think that for _forum_ moderators, we should use a _forum_

seems like they don't like mailing lists :-(

It was more like a joke, but: Yes. I think many of them dont like mailinglists. But to coordinate the building of a forum, it is better to use the existing infrastructure, and not build up a forum to discuss building up a forum. When forum.opensuse.org exists, then there should be a subforum only/mainly for moderators. OJ -- "...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." (By Matt Welsh)