[opensuse] Brasero crashes attempting to burn a DVD
...As the subject. Annexed is the log: another very annoying problem! Regards, -- Marco Calistri opensuse 13.2 (Harlequin) 64 bit - Kernel 3.17.2-5.g5caf82d-default Gnome 3.14.1 Intel® Core™ i5-2410M CPU @ 2.30GHz × 4 - Intel® Sandybridge Mobile
On 07/12/14 01:18, Marco Calistri wrote:
...As the subject.
Annexed is the log: another very annoying problem!
Regards,
Why don't you use k3b instead? Easy to use. Never had a problem with k3b (except for a very short period some years ago). BC -- Using openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4.14.3 & kernel 3.17.4-3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 07/12/2014 02:44, Basil Chupin ha scritto:
On 07/12/14 01:18, Marco Calistri wrote:
...As the subject.
Annexed is the log: another very annoying problem!
Regards,
Why don't you use k3b instead? Easy to use. Never had a problem with k3b (except for a very short period some years ago).
BC
Is it k3b still available? I resolved the problem by running ffmpeg on console to convert a wmv video into avi then DeveDe to create an ISO of such avi to burn on DVD: a bit slow method but worked perfectly! Regards, -- Marco Calistri opensuse 13.2 (Harlequin) 64 bit - Kernel 3.17.2-5.g5caf82d-default Gnome 3.14.1 Intel® Core™ i5-2410M CPU @ 2.30GHz × 4 - Intel® Sandybridge Mobile -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-08 02:22, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 07/12/2014 02:44, Basil Chupin ha scritto:
On 07/12/14 01:18, Marco Calistri wrote:
...As the subject.
Annexed is the log: another very annoying problem!
Why don't you use k3b instead? Easy to use. Never had a problem with k3b (except for a very short period some years ago).
Is it k3b still available?
Of course it is. Why would it be not available?
I resolved the problem by running ffmpeg on console to convert a wmv video into avi then DeveDe to create an ISO of such avi to burn on DVD: a bit slow method but worked perfectly!
Ah, so you were asking brasero to do some type of multimedia conversion on the fly, not a simple data to iso burning? You didn't say anything about that. Now I notice in the log things related to conversions. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Il 08/12/2014 02:36, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-08 02:22, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 07/12/2014 02:44, Basil Chupin ha scritto:
On 07/12/14 01:18, Marco Calistri wrote:
...As the subject.
Annexed is the log: another very annoying problem!
Why don't you use k3b instead? Easy to use. Never had a problem with k3b (except for a very short period some years ago).
Is it k3b still available?
Of course it is. Why would it be not available?
I resolved the problem by running ffmpeg on console to convert a wmv video into avi then DeveDe to create an ISO of such avi to burn on DVD: a bit slow method but worked perfectly!
Ah, so you were asking brasero to do some type of multimedia conversion on the fly, not a simple data to iso burning? You didn't say anything about that. Now I notice in the log things related to conversions.
I've found and installed k3b, now I have two choice: 1) do as I did previously using manual conversion + devede 2) trying k3b Brasero is definitely broken and it is not broken just on openeSUSE as my research over the Web has demonstrated: Ubuntu,Arch,Fedora... all suffering from same error related to this: ** (brasero:3023): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files sequential) W blank Wonder how a broken package went included into a final distribution, aren't there testers/checkers of the bundled software? Regards, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 09:06]:
Brasero is definitely broken and it is not broken just on openeSUSE as my research over the Web has demonstrated: Ubuntu,Arch,Fedora... all suffering from same error related to this:
** (brasero:3023): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files sequential) W blank
Wonder how a broken package went included into a final distribution, aren't there testers/checkers of the bundled software?
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 09:06]:
Brasero is definitely broken and it is not broken just on openeSUSE as my research over the Web has demonstrated: Ubuntu,Arch,Fedora... all suffering from same error related to this:
** (brasero:3023): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files sequential) W blank
Wonder how a broken package went included into a final distribution, aren't there testers/checkers of the bundled software?
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me? I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/ Cheers, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/12/2014 18:23, Marco Calistri a écrit :
I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/
tested for sure, but not on your computer :-( everybody can be a tester is he accept to try factory (at least at free time) :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 15:27, jdd ha scritto:
Le 08/12/2014 18:23, Marco Calistri a écrit :
I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/
tested for sure, but not on your computer :-(
everybody can be a tester is he accept to try factory (at least at free time)
:-) jdd
..Is Brasero working on your computer? Answer valid only if you have tested Brasero on openSUSE-13.2 Gnome 3.14.1 (I bet at least 75 over 100 users will complain about the fact that Brasero is broken and not just on openSUSE!) Cheers, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/12/2014 18:55, Marco Calistri a écrit :
Il 08/12/2014 15:27, jdd ha scritto:
..Is Brasero working on your computer?
Answer valid only if you have tested Brasero on openSUSE-13.2 Gnome 3.14.1
not mine, I use kde4/k3b :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 12:24]:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto: [...]
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
Yes, YOU
I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/
Ah, but you are. We are all testers. Our contribution to the overall effort is to report problems and inconsistencies we find using software someone else has expended effort and time to our benefit. Our payment and/or contribution is that effort we make to increase the quality of the end product. It is NOT a free society, are you not benefiting from the "donated" work of other, do you not expect to make some small return? There will be no openSUSE nor any other FOSS, if this small return is not made. You cannot be just: A simple dumb user existing as a burden on "others". Your expectations are as I was told at a very young age, "Shit in one hand and wish in the other, see which gets full first". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 15:39, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 12:24]:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto: [...]
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
Yes, YOU
I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/
Ah, but you are. We are all testers. Our contribution to the overall effort is to report problems and inconsistencies we find using software someone else has expended effort and time to our benefit. Our payment and/or contribution is that effort we make to increase the quality of the end product. It is NOT a free society, are you not benefiting from the "donated" work of other, do you not expect to make some small return?
There will be no openSUSE nor any other FOSS, if this small return is not made.
You cannot be just: A simple dumb user existing as a burden on "others". Your expectations are as I was told at a very young age, "Shit in one hand and wish in the other, see which gets full first".
...Please let me be just the "warning led" blinking on any broken thing I am able to find. Regards, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 12:59]:
Il 08/12/2014 15:39, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 12:24]:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto: [...]
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
Yes, YOU
I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/
Ah, but you are. We are all testers. Our contribution to the overall effort is to report problems and inconsistencies we find using software someone else has expended effort and time to our benefit. Our payment and/or contribution is that effort we make to increase the quality of the end product. It is NOT a free society, are you not benefiting from the "donated" work of other, do you not expect to make some small return?
There will be no openSUSE nor any other FOSS, if this small return is not made.
You cannot be just: A simple dumb user existing as a burden on "others". Your expectations are as I was told at a very young age, "Shit in one hand and wish in the other, see which gets full first".
...Please let me be just the "warning led" blinking on any broken thing I am able to find.
IOW, you wish to make *no* effort, but just to keep complaining about the efforts or lack of efforts of others. Welcome aboard the welfare train. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 16:08, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 12:59]:
Il 08/12/2014 15:39, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
* Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> [12-08-14 12:24]:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto: [...]
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
Yes, YOU
I'm not tester, developer nor maintainer, I'm a simple and dumb user and I expect the software bundled into the release being at least tested :-/
Ah, but you are. We are all testers. Our contribution to the overall effort is to report problems and inconsistencies we find using software someone else has expended effort and time to our benefit. Our payment and/or contribution is that effort we make to increase the quality of the end product. It is NOT a free society, are you not benefiting from the "donated" work of other, do you not expect to make some small return?
There will be no openSUSE nor any other FOSS, if this small return is not made.
You cannot be just: A simple dumb user existing as a burden on "others". Your expectations are as I was told at a very young age, "Shit in one hand and wish in the other, see which gets full first".
...Please let me be just the "warning led" blinking on any broken thing I am able to find.
IOW, you wish to make *no* effort, but just to keep complaining about the efforts or lack of efforts of others. Welcome aboard the welfare train.
Exactly, I wont to make any effort, just complaining; is there something which hurt you about this? I'm sorry because my scope was not to hurt anybody. Cheers, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/12/2014 19:28, Marco Calistri a écrit :
Exactly, I wont to make any effort, just complaining; is there something which hurt you about this?
not really, it's pretty common :-)
I'm sorry because my scope was not to hurt anybody.
you can ask to a reimbursement of what you paid to have the software :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* jdd <jdd@dodin.org> [12-08-14 13:36]:
Le 08/12/2014 19:28, Marco Calistri a écrit :
Exactly, I wont to make any effort, just complaining; is there something which hurt you about this?
not really, it's pretty common :-)
I'm sorry because my scope was not to hurt anybody.
you can ask to a reimbursement of what you paid to have the software :-)
Probably "demand" would better fit. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 16:35, jdd ha scritto:
Le 08/12/2014 19:28, Marco Calistri a écrit :
Exactly, I wont to make any effort, just complaining; is there something which hurt you about this?
not really, it's pretty common :-)
I'm sorry because my scope was not to hurt anybody.
you can ask to a reimbursement of what you paid to have the software :-)
jdd
I already requested but I only accept PayPal ;-) Regards, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/12/14 17:39, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
Your expectations are as I was told at a very young age, "Shit in one hand and wish in the other, see which gets full first".
ROFL! - -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.16.6-2-desktop Distro: openSUSE 13.2 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.3 Uptime: 06:00am up 14:08, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.05 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlSF6XYACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU6DMwCfWKni0i2gYxTIavrIqImB0Su5 M3AAn2lj/KzwieGVN/Bvd7mBoig38wp8 =oBuR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-12-08 18:23, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
I'm not tester,
Yes, you are. We all are. :-) That's what openSUSE, Linux and most opensource is about, everybody helps. There is nobody that is paid to test, so unless the users test things, nobody will. So, the next step now is that you, as the only person here that has experimented this problem, report it officially in Bugzilla. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlSGTxoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wb4gCeL53TqOhLepe0ihnRDcOqeMGc xNQAn3TE31dOivjkatNs1hjj3UIm0FHP =f9iG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/08/2014 08:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2014-12-08 18:23, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
I'm not tester,
Yes, you are. We all are. :-)
That's what openSUSE, Linux and most opensource is about, everybody helps. There is nobody that is paid to test, so unless the users test things, nobody will.
So, the next step now is that you, as the only person here that has experimented this problem, report it officially in Bugzilla.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlSGTxoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wb4gCeL53TqOhLepe0ihnRDcOqeMGc xNQAn3TE31dOivjkatNs1hjj3UIm0FHP =f9iG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few! --doug code and ship it without -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
You can probably be assured that in at least one ideal environment all the apps worked. Do they work as shipped with openSUSE? That often requires hands on testing and we are the testers. I maintain some packages because I use them. I test them very intentionally because I need them to work. I maintain some other packages because I stepped up to the plate when someone asked. I'm sure a couple of those I haven't tested post the 13.1 release. If no one else is using them they could well be totally broken. Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 02:50, Doug wrote:
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
There are some paid programmers, on some projects, not all. But not paid testers, as far as I know. Programmers, specially volunteers, do some testing on their machines, I suppose. But that doesn't mean they have a bunch of machines to do testing on every change they do. With software that handles hardware (the burner), it is possible that it works on the machines they have and don't on some other machine. And after all, only one person has complained of problems, and I guess he doesn't want to contribute by reporting, so it will never be solved. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Il 09/12/2014 00:23, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-09 02:50, Doug wrote:
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
There are some paid programmers, on some projects, not all. But not paid testers, as far as I know.
Programmers, specially volunteers, do some testing on their machines, I suppose. But that doesn't mean they have a bunch of machines to do testing on every change they do. With software that handles hardware (the burner), it is possible that it works on the machines they have and don't on some other machine.
And after all, only one person has complained of problems, and I guess he doesn't want to contribute by reporting, so it will never be solved.
Let's start the following survey?: Is Brasero running on your openSUSE-13.2? Let's wait for the result after a week or so, I bet 75 over 100 users will complain about Brasero is broken! Regards, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/12/2014 13:27, Marco Calistri a écrit :
Let's start the following survey?:
let's start by the beginning. What do you want brasero to do? I just wrote a data dvd (mp4 files) and I'm listening to them right now... let me say other things: * I usually use k3b, but notice brasero seems simpler * I have to write Blu-Ray disks, so I do not use cdrtools, but the brand original cdrecord from joerg shilling (found in the obs), so when installing brasero I had to quote "break brasero not installing cdrtools", but brasero found cdrecord without problem the write tool is cdrecord, with mkisofs and growisofs. k3b or brasero are only GUI, I use them only because it's easier to guess the data size versus the disk size. jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 15:39, jdd wrote:
* I usually use k3b, but notice brasero seems simpler
Too simple. I don't see any way to choose options such as joliet or not, for instance.
* I have to write Blu-Ray disks, so I do not use cdrtools, but the brand original cdrecord from joerg shilling (found in the obs), so when installing brasero I had to quote "break brasero not installing cdrtools", but brasero found cdrecord without problem
That would be a packaging bug somewhere. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 2014-12-09 13:27, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 09/12/2014 00:23, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
Is Brasero running on your openSUSE-13.2?
I don't _use_ 13.2. I'm not even sure I have any blank CDs. DVDs, yes. And I still don't know clearly what type of CD it is. Something with multimedia, I believe.
Let's wait for the result after a week or so, I bet 75 over 100 users will complain about Brasero is broken!
They would have already, 13.2 has been out for more than a month. If brasero has a simulation mode, I might try that, in a virtual system. [...] Done. In vmware player. There is no simulation mode, there is no configuration at all that I can see, no choices. I created a data project, click "burn", and it created an image. It said that unless I plugged in a real platter, it would not burn it, just create the image. And it did fine, no crashes. So... good. Unless you specify in detail what type of project I have to create, what types of files and what to do with them... I can not do further testing. But I'm not going to /use/ brasero. It is exceedingly simple, no configurable at all. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Il 09/12/2014 13:22, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-09 13:27, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 09/12/2014 00:23, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
Is Brasero running on your openSUSE-13.2?
I don't _use_ 13.2.
Mine was a general proposal not direct.
I'm not even sure I have any blank CDs. DVDs, yes. And I still don't know clearly what type of CD it is. Something with multimedia, I believe.
Let's wait for the result after a week or so, I bet 75 over 100 users will complain about Brasero is broken!
They would have already, 13.2 has been out for more than a month.
Yes
If brasero has a simulation mode, I might try that, in a virtual system. [...] Done. In vmware player. There is no simulation mode, there is no configuration at all that I can see, no choices. I created a data project, click "burn", and it created an image. It said that unless I plugged in a real platter, it would not burn it, just create the image. And it did fine, no crashes.
So... good.
In my case I have to make a file format conversion before burning and it is a WMV or AVI video into CD/DVD format
Unless you specify in detail what type of project I have to create, what types of files and what to do with them... I can not do further testing.
But I'm not going to /use/ brasero. It is exceedingly simple, no configurable at all.
When Brasero works it doesn't need configuration at all, it works straightaway! Regards, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 17:57, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 09/12/2014 13:22, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
When Brasero works it doesn't need configuration at all, it works straightaway!
Well, that's the reason I don't use it, that it is not configurable and that it lacks features. Many people feel the same, and use k3b instead. That's what most people here test and use. I have tried to emulate a burn of two avi files. I get: "name....avi" does not have a suitable type for video projects. Please only add files with video content Close. Which is probably because I don't have packman in the test machine. Guessing. So that's the end of my testing. As I don't use brasero, I can not really test it. You do use it, you found a problem, but you do not want to report... so the issue will never be solved. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Le 09/12/2014 18:39, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
"name....avi" does not have a suitable type for video projects. Please only add files with video content
looks normal, video dvd needs mpg video, preferably in VOB format (as done by devede or dvstyler for avi file, write data dvd I don't see any interest to have dvd video built on the fly, too much risk of failures jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 18:45, jdd wrote:
Le 09/12/2014 18:39, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
"name....avi" does not have a suitable type for video projects. Please only add files with video content
looks normal, video dvd needs mpg video, preferably in VOB format (as done by devede or dvstyler
for avi file, write data dvd
I don't see any interest to have dvd video built on the fly, too much risk of failures
Dunno, if the application claims it supports that feature, it has to work. But brasero claiming that an avi file does not contain video, when it obviously does, it is absurd. Say that the codec is not included for legal reasons, so that avi video can not be handled. When I try to play the same video from 'mc', it opens "totem", which then says "The playback of this movie requires a MPEG-4 Video decoder plugin which is not installed.", which is a reasonably correct error message. And another bug: when I try to see the help, it fails: «Totem could not display the help contents. The specified location is not supported» Anyway, brasero in 13.1 fails to create that media cd, too, on that same avi file (but totem plays it fine, as packman is properly installed here). Another avi file, though, causes no complain on brasero. It claims that it is going to create s svcd, then crashes with segmentation fault: ** (brasero:16844): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files Segmentation fault cer@Telcontar:~> That's on 13.1. I try again that file that "attempted" to work on 13.1, on 13.2. Here it refuses, probably because I don't have packman in 13.2 (under vmplayer) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Le 09/12/2014 20:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
But brasero claiming that an avi file does not contain video, when it obviously does,
avi is a container and can have nearly any video codec, but should have video :-). But if the codec is not installed, how one can know it's really video and not any data with extension. remember linux do not really like indetifying files by extnsion :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 20:49, jdd wrote:
Le 09/12/2014 20:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
But brasero claiming that an avi file does not contain video, when it obviously does,
avi is a container and can have nearly any video codec, but should have video :-). But if the codec is not installed, how one can know it's really video and not any data with extension. remember linux do not really like indetifying files by extnsion :-(
In 13.1 they are all installed, and Brasero segfaults. The command "file" identifies perfectly the file types, without needing any codec. You can look inside the avi container and identify the needed codecs without breaking any patent, I believe (mediainfo or equivalent). Which a different thing from displaying the contents of the file. In fact, brasero knows and displays the duration of the video files, so it does know things about them. No, it is simply bad coding. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 12/09/2014 02:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, if the application claims it supports that feature, it has to work.
Dunno either. I recall one marketing manager deciding to revise the published spec & docco to remove all reference to a feature that didn't work and declare it "unsupported". Easier, I suppose, that figuring out what is wrong and fixing it. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-10 14:16, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/09/2014 02:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, if the application claims it supports that feature, it has to work.
Dunno either. I recall one marketing manager deciding to revise the published spec & docco to remove all reference to a feature that didn't work and declare it "unsupported".
Easier, I suppose, that figuring out what is wrong and fixing it.
1984 -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 12/10/2014 10:41 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-12-10 14:16, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/09/2014 02:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, if the application claims it supports that feature, it has to work.
Dunno either. I recall one marketing manager deciding to revise the published spec & docco to remove all reference to a feature that didn't work and declare it "unsupported".
Easier, I suppose, that figuring out what is wrong and fixing it.
1984
No, this was in the 1990s ... :-) -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-10 18:32, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/10/2014 10:41 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-12-10 14:16, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/09/2014 02:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, if the application claims it supports that feature, it has to work.
Dunno either. I recall one marketing manager deciding to revise the published spec & docco to remove all reference to a feature that didn't work and declare it "unsupported".
Easier, I suppose, that figuring out what is wrong and fixing it.
1984
No, this was in the 1990s ... :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four Orwell. ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On December 10, 2014 8:16:26 AM EST, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 12/09/2014 02:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Dunno, if the application claims it supports that feature, it has to work.
Dunno either. I recall one marketing manager deciding to revise the published spec & docco to remove all reference to a feature that didn't work and declare it "unsupported".
Easier, I suppose, that figuring out what is wrong and fixing it.
When I bought my Honda it only unlocked the drivers door when it was parked (at the end of a trip). The manual said both the driver and passenger door would unlock automatically. When I took it to the dealership to complain, they said they would get the manual fixed asap. :( Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 09/12/2014 15:39, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-09 17:57, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 09/12/2014 13:22, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
When Brasero works it doesn't need configuration at all, it works straightaway!
Well, that's the reason I don't use it, that it is not configurable and that it lacks features. Many people feel the same, and use k3b instead. That's what most people here test and use.
I have tried to emulate a burn of two avi files. I get:
"name....avi" does not have a suitable type for video projects. Please only add files with video content Close.
Which is probably because I don't have packman in the test machine. Guessing.
So that's the end of my testing. As I don't use brasero, I can not really test it. You do use it, you found a problem, but you do not want to report... so the issue will never be solved.
Carlos, Congratulations (sincerely) for your spirit and dedication! I dislike however anybody which answer things like: "Oh but why you don't use Xfactor or Ymatrix instead to use Wformatter?" If I (or someone else) have a problem with one specific application he most likely wants to solve _that_ _application_ and not simply desist and use another one. I had Brasero working for the last three or more editions of openSUSE and on 13.2 it *appears* to be broken, for this reason I reported the occurrence on this list but this does not mean that I wish to involve myself in finding a solution, I supposed the log I attached would of some utility to the application maintainer or to the programmer, may be I'm wrong. If Brasero doesn't work on 13.2, I will use other methods to create my DVDs but if I were the application maintainer or programmer, I certainly will go to check if really something is broken or not. Ok, I wont to keep boring people with this matter then I will stop here. Thanks to the participants. Take care, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 01:28 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:
If I (or someone else) have a problem with one specific application he most likely wants to solve _that_ _application_ and not simply desist and use another one.
Possibly; possibly not. Analysts and consultants often shift the question from "what are you trying to do?" (which isn't working) to "what are you trying to achieve?" In my DatabaseOfDotSigQuotes, which, thanks to religious objectors being overly sensitive to what other, famous, people are quoted as saying, Henne has told me not to use here, I find People who won't quit making the same mistake over and over are what we call conservatives. - Richard Ford, in his novel Independence Day I'm sure the "light a candle rather than complain about the darkness" school of philosophers Gets Things Done. I'm also sure that any quotation I can come up with, including the "top posting" and "ascii ribbon" ones I use here now will upset _someone_. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 19:28, Marco Calistri wrote:
Carlos,
Congratulations (sincerely) for your spirit and dedication!
Welcome :-)
I had Brasero working for the last three or more editions of openSUSE and on 13.2 it *appears* to be broken, for this reason I reported the occurrence on this list but this does not mean that I wish to involve myself in finding a solution, I supposed the log I attached would of some utility to the application maintainer or to the programmer, may be I'm wrong.
Likely not. My guess is that he doesn't even read here, or he would have commented something. And if he did read your post, he would insist that you report officially, in Bugzilla. Mail reports are routinely ignored, 95% of the times. That's how it works... I'm not saying that it is good or bad, simply that this is the way it works. http://en.opensuse.org/Report_bugs But, guessing, if your mix of packages includes packman versions, you may have to tell them instead. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Il 09/12/2014 16:52, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-09 19:28, Marco Calistri wrote:
Carlos,
Congratulations (sincerely) for your spirit and dedication!
Welcome :-)
I had Brasero working for the last three or more editions of openSUSE and on 13.2 it *appears* to be broken, for this reason I reported the occurrence on this list but this does not mean that I wish to involve myself in finding a solution, I supposed the log I attached would of some utility to the application maintainer or to the programmer, may be I'm wrong.
Likely not. My guess is that he doesn't even read here, or he would have commented something. And if he did read your post, he would insist that you report officially, in Bugzilla. Mail reports are routinely ignored, 95% of the times.
That's how it works... I'm not saying that it is good or bad, simply that this is the way it works.
http://en.opensuse.org/Report_bugs
But, guessing, if your mix of packages includes packman versions, you may have to tell them instead.
Cheers, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/12/2014 17:57, Marco Calistri a écrit :
In my case I have to make a file format conversion before burning and it is a WMV or AVI video into CD/DVD format
did you do that with braero or other program?
When Brasero works it doesn't need configuration at all, it works straightaway!
to do so you only need cdrecord :-) what is the complete work you try to achieve? is the target a dvd video or simply video files on a dvd? I do not anymore build video dvd (not speaking of video cd's), because now every reader reads as well video files and specially mp4. I do only mp4 on disks and flv for the web jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 09/12/2014 15:50, jdd ha scritto:
Le 09/12/2014 17:57, Marco Calistri a écrit :
In my case I have to make a file format conversion before burning and it is a WMV or AVI video into CD/DVD format
did you do that with braero or other program?
When Brasero works it doesn't need configuration at all, it works straightaway!
to do so you only need cdrecord :-)
what is the complete work you try to achieve? is the target a dvd video or simply video files on a dvd?
DVD or even CD video of recorded video by the smartphone
I do not anymore build video dvd (not speaking of video cd's), because now every reader reads as well video files and specially mp4. I do only mp4 on disks and flv for the web
jdd
My home theater accept only DVD format :-( -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/12/2014 19:32, Marco Calistri a écrit :
My home theater accept only DVD format :-(
ok, time to change (joke) what you can say is what differences are there between what worked and do not work anymore. At what step? something we can reproduce :-) thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/08/2014 08:50 PM, Doug wrote:
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
Indeed, and I've managed many. Programmers test their own code to do what they think they have written. Sometimes they find that what they wrote isn't what they thought they wrote, but on the whole programmers are useless at doing meaningful testing of their own code. They are too attached to it to see it for what it really is. I knew one programmer who wrote terrible code -- he enjoyed debugging it! So I took him off programming and had him debug everyone else's code. I insisted that if they wrote such great code he wouldn’t find any bugs and so if he did they had to pay him $0.50 per bug. Their egos caused them to agree t that. Fools! He made about $100 the first week, about $50 the second and settled down to about $10 each week for the rest of the project. Read that: THE REST OF THE PROJECT. These programmers who "put their money where their ego was" still managed to produce about 20 bugs per week! (that was about 1 bug per day per person.) I recall reading that IBM reckoned that there were about 200 bugs in each release of MVS. And each "fix" of one generation introduced more, even as it fixed those, so the number remained about constant. We see that certainly in Microsoft releases. And you'd think there is a learning process, but no, the way the 'system' works the experienced programmers get promoted. I did. The programmers' attachment to their own code that blinds them to its defects, both in the design and in the coding, is well known and long established.. You can fin it in Weinberg's "The Psychology of Computer Programming" from 1971 and he references some studies on this going back to the early 1960s. Most references on programming teams make it very clear that the people who write the code and the people who test is should NOT be the same. Some recommend, as I found, separate and competitive teams. Its not that programmers don't test their own work, its that they are blind to many of the mistakes they make. Heck so are writers, that why they have copy editors. Now if only my spelling checker were smart enough ... -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 03:25, Anton Aylward wrote:
He made about $100 the first week, about $50 the second and settled down to about $10 each week for the rest of the project.
:-) I read a report time ago about a company, British, I think, that guaranteed perfect code. For small but critical components of larger projects (not guis or applications). It takes them a year and a half designing, before they even wrote a single line of code. Then much less "coding". I think that they managed what they claimed, and charged a terrible amount for it. I think that if the client finds a bug there are penalties. And apparently there are not. Typically clients find disagreements in what they get and what they expected, specially on the human interface, but those are not bugs. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-12-09 03:25, Anton Aylward wrote:
He made about $100 the first week, about $50 the second and settled down to about $10 each week for the rest of the project.
:-)
I read a report time ago about a company, British, I think, that guaranteed perfect code.
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can _prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 10:46 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can_prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha. ................
- btw - Tools : some must be fantastic-good : IIRC was it Yast was converted into Ruby code by robot-translator ? .......... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
ellanios82 wrote:
On 12/09/2014 10:46 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can_prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha. ................
- btw - Tools : some must be fantastic-good : IIRC was it Yast was converted into Ruby code by robot-translator ?
I believe some automated code-generation was used yes. In my experience automatically generated code is largely unmaintainable. Once upon a time, I took over an application that was auto-generated in Ada. It was terrible and we rewrote it in assembler. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 16:33, Per Jessen wrote:
ellanios82 wrote:
- btw - Tools : some must be fantastic-good : IIRC was it Yast was converted into Ruby code by robot-translator ?
I believe some automated code-generation was used yes.
Yes. When they found a problem in the resulting code, instead of editing it, they edited the translator and made another run of the whole translation. This cycle they repeated many times till they were unable to find problems on the result - problem that were not also present in the original code, that is, but problems due to the translation, that is. Thus I hope that the ruby code is good enough for human writers now ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 12/09/2014 10:33 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
ellanios82 wrote:
On 12/09/2014 10:46 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can_prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha. ................
- btw - Tools : some must be fantastic-good : IIRC was it Yast was converted into Ruby code by robot-translator ?
I believe some automated code-generation was used yes. In my experience automatically generated code is largely unmaintainable. Once upon a time, I took over an application that was auto-generated in Ada. It was terrible and we rewrote it in assembler.
I would not say unmaintainable. Look, for example, at the code produced by YACC and LEX. Its all based around regular expressions. As someone said, YACC is like a Swiss Army Knife! Anything that can be reduced to pattern recognition can be done with YACC, and anything that can be reduced to tokenization to LEX. But the output 'tables' are unmaintainable as separate entities. The thing is though, you don't maintain them as separate entities, you maintain the source code. The same could be said for the code produced by RubyOnRails, only its dynamic and you never get to see it. The reason I think this is a poor argument, Per, is that a compiler is an automated too for producing assembly code. You might think of it as the distillation of many experts, an 'expert system' or a highly focused 'artificial intelligence' that knows only one thing: code generation. The output of modern compilers is a long way from the template compiler that came with V6 UNIX back in the mid 1970s! But then modern Complex Instruction Set computers such as the x86 architecture offer so much that is beyond the ken of mere mortals to make full use of. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/09/2014 10:33 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
ellanios82 wrote:
On 12/09/2014 10:46 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can_prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha. ................
- btw - Tools : some must be fantastic-good : IIRC was it Yast was converted into Ruby code by robot-translator ?
I believe some automated code-generation was used yes. In my experience automatically generated code is largely unmaintainable. Once upon a time, I took over an application that was auto-generated in Ada. It was terrible and we rewrote it in assembler.
I would not say unmaintainable.
Look, for example, at the code produced by YACC and LEX.
That is very, very different. The code generated by yacc and lex does not need maintainance. You change the input and rerun the generation.
The thing is though, you don't maintain them as separate entities, you maintain the source code.
Precisely.
The reason I think this is a poor argument, Per, is that a compiler is an automated too for producing assembly code.
Usually automated code-generation is a one-way street driven once. I don't think you can put compiler generated assembler in that category. The generated code does not need maintenance, only the source. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.0°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 12:33 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Usually automated code-generation is a one-way street driven once. I don't think you can put compiler generated assembler in that category. The generated code does not need maintenance, only the source.
Now lets generalize that. That last statement applies to not just the input to a compiler but the input to YACC, LEX, RoR and many many other things. Yes, there is a problem if you don't have source, but that applies with most vendor products, doesn’t it? *YOU* can't fix it because you only have the output of the 'generator'. It doesn’t matter if that is automatically generated Ada, automatically generated Ruby, automatically generated output of YACC or LEX, or machine code from a compiler. Its "not for human readability". And hence it is an unmaintainable by humans form. Yes, by definition its a one-way process. Source code of any form will have implied semantics in naming as well as comments. No way can a 'reverse compiler' regenerate those :-) Hopefully the source is kept :-) "Driven once" -- well I'm not sure about that. many developers do CPLG development, incremental building of function, some even test each bit as they add it. The examples in most programming books build and add. So no, I disagree with "once". -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 03:46 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can _prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha.
I have; as I said, NASA for Deep Space projects. Its not so much cumbersome as overwhelming as it has to consider so many interfaces and surfaces and more. That escalates with the (N+1)th power of something or other and size is a key part of that. Its one reason that so much of the NASA deep space code is so small. The explosion of code volume and 'function' and 'eye candy' we have in many Linux projects, especially GUIs, is part of the problem. The old 1970s UNIX idea of small programs that did one very specific thing and means of combining them was an attempt to fight the way commercial programming was going at that time with systems like CICS. Sadly the 'enhancements' from Berkeley such as VI[1]and the evolution of the original small and fast Bourne shell into BASH are part of a code explosion. Lets not even start on the GUIs like Gnome and KDE whose combinatorial complexity is unmeasurable! Some of that 'candy' is driven my feature-driven marketing, but some of it is just human nature. The discipline involved in that kind of "Code? Why that's the last thing I'll do" sort of careful analysis and design, and then hand it over to testing and have them humiliate you, and lets face it, testing is no where near as much fun as coding, well that kind of discipline takes enormous motivation. [1] See for example Rob Pike's 1983 presentation at USENIX "Cat -v considered harmful" http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v/ -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-09 09:46, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I read a report time ago about a company, British, I think, that guaranteed perfect code.
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can _prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha.
Yes, that's what this company did, for crucial things such as credit card authentication. And apparently making money. Probably they spent months discussing the specs, too... And having lawyers going over it for weeks :-p The article was in the ieee spectrum some years ago, but I don't remember how many nor the title of the article, magazine section, or company name (only that it was British), which is a pity or I'd find a link to reliable data and not foggy memories :-} -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-12-09 09:46, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I read a report time ago about a company, British, I think, that guaranteed perfect code.
There tools such as formal programming, but I have not heard of anyone actually making productive use of it. It's too cumbersome, but in theory you can _prove_ that your code does exactly what it is specified to do. Now we just hope you have a perfect spec to write to, hahaha.
Yes, that's what this company did, for crucial things such as credit card authentication. And apparently making money.
We're straying off-topic, my final comment - I studied formal programming very briefly in the early 90s, back then it was more thought to be of use for anywhere where human life would depend on the software being correct, e.g. nuclear plant operations, train or plane ditto. ISTR recall a book by Anne Kaldewaij on formal methods. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/08/2014 10:09 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-12-09 03:25, Anton Aylward wrote:
He made about $100 the first week, about $50 the second and settled down to about $10 each week for the rest of the project.
:-)
I read a report time ago about a company, British, I think, that guaranteed perfect code. For small but critical components of larger projects (not guis or applications). It takes them a year and a half designing, before they even wrote a single line of code. Then much less "coding". I think that they managed what they claimed, and charged a terrible amount for it. I think that if the client finds a bug there are penalties. And apparently there are not.
Yes, this type of "Code? Why that's the last thing I'll do" approach to ultra reliable software engineering is not unknown among those willing to pay for it. Its why some dedicated aerospace projects such as the NASA deep space probes use this technique. You'll also not the "small". Keeping it small limits the number of interactions. There are a few very fundamental principles of ultra reliable software design and keeping "interfaces" and "surfaces" small is among them. Applying this to other projects need not be expensive; its the learning curve that is expensive. Some military aerospace projects have used this but on the whole too many military items use OTS. We've all seen the reports of the US navy ship that ran Windows and was dead in the water when it crashed. I've tried googling but can't find it .... Perhaps you recall the cartoon of the over-the-shoulder shot of pilot in a a plane cockpit approaching the runway and the display has the windows error message "restart, retry abort". No, that cannot be allowed to happen. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/12/2014 03:25, Anton Aylward a écrit :
The programmers' attachment to their own code that blinds them to its defects,
it's not special to programmers. It's much more difficult to find spelling errors in his own text than on the others one :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 02:23 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 09/12/2014 03:25, Anton Aylward a écrit :
The programmers' attachment to their own code that blinds them to its defects,
it's not special to programmers. It's much more difficult to find spelling errors in his own text than on the others one :-)
ROTFLMAO! Don't I know it! -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2014-12-08 at 21:25 -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:50 PM, Doug wrote:
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
Indeed, and I've managed many. Programmers test their own code to do what they think they have written. Sometimes they find that what they wrote isn't what they thought they wrote, but on the whole programmers are useless at doing meaningful testing of their own code. They are too attached to it to see it for what it really is.
I knew one programmer who wrote terrible code
True, the person that test, should not be the one who wrote it. <grin> otoh, don't blame programmers for all that is black, dark and evil. At a major telcom-equipment-provider, their where some managers, that were able to sell concrete-life-jackets (with ISO-certification). And knowingly. On the way back to the office we were asked how we were able to get around unrealistic promises. Specifications (IF ANY EXISTED) that changed weekly (if not daily) But most of the time you had to code based on some scribled notes from a meeting. And when you asked about an estimated time of delivery, they were angry that it was not already finished. So bottom line, programmers are almost human... :-) </grin> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 02:54 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote: /snip/
So bottom line, programmers are almost human... :-) </grin>
You're right. I happen to know a rather attractive one, even. I won't mention her name. . . . --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 02:54 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:
<grin> otoh, don't blame programmers for all that is black, dark and evil. At a major telcom-equipment-provider, their where some managers, that were able to sell concrete-life-jackets (with ISO-certification). And knowingly. On the way back to the office we were asked how we were able to get around unrealistic promises. Specifications (IF ANY EXISTED) that changed weekly (if not daily) But most of the time you had to code based on some scribled notes from a meeting. And when you asked about an estimated time of delivery, they were angry that it was not already finished.
So bottom line, programmers are almost human... :-) </grin>
That's one reason I got out of commercial programming. One time delivering what they had actually asked for because I had a back-channel to the customer had me physically assaulted by the marketing manager. That programmers are not given the tools, opportunity and motivation to "Get Things Right" is a management decision, and its often driven by marketing and featureitis. Project managers fear scope creep more than anything. BTDT. I've had young programmers on technical forums take a 'well if you're so smart why don't you code it yourself' attitude. There's a reason, and its not about incompetence. Trying to do an excellent job in a commercial setting is sometimes just too frustrating. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:50 PM, Doug wrote:
I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
Indeed, and I've managed many. Programmers test their own code to do what they think they have written. Sometimes they find that what they wrote isn't what they thought they wrote, but on the whole programmers are useless at doing meaningful testing of their own code. They are too attached to it to see it for what it really is.
It's more a case of - programmers test their code to see that it works, testers test the code to see where it breaks. It's all about one's perspective. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 03:43 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
It's more a case of - programmers test their code to see that it works, testers test the code to see where it breaks. It's all about one's perspective.
Yes, that's a good observation. You've put my line about programmers testing to do what they think they wrote in a much better context. Thank you! -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/09/2014 03:43 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
It's more a case of - programmers test their code to see that it works, testers test the code to see where it breaks. It's all about one's perspective.
Even so, a tester can't test everything. Back when I was at IBM, the first time, I tested desktop systems, to ensure everything worked properly. If I ever came across a problem, I added it to my list of things to be checked next time around. However, I find I often push things beyond common use. As an example I recently came across a problem with a WiFi access point. I have had this AP for almost 3 years and it worked well with both IPv4 and IPv6. A few months ago, I added a 2nd SSID for guests, which used a VLAN and only connected users to the Internet. That worked well with IPv4. A couple of weeks ago, I decided to add IPv6 to it. I soon discovered that IPv6 would fail as devices were getting router advertisements from both the main and guest subnets. After some testing, I discovered that the access point was allowing a lot of broadcasts & multicasts from the native LAN to the 2nd SSID. I would imagine that the original tester only verified VLANs and additional SSIDs worked with IPv4 and not IPv6. I've also spent the past few days educating the support person on how VLANs worked. He seemed to think it was normal for native LAN traffic to appear on a VLAN. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-12-10 14:39, James Knott wrote:
After some testing, I discovered that the access point was allowing a lot of broadcasts & multicasts from the native LAN to the 2nd SSID. I would imagine that the original tester only verified VLANs and additional SSIDs worked with IPv4 and not IPv6.
I received some networking training not long ago, this decade, some hundreds hours, and ipv6 was largely ignored. So that it is not well tested is not surprising, it is not even understood. Many think that it is not coming. It will be somebody else's problem, and perhaps we can sell new hardware when it does, and training and support. Many ISPs do not support it. Mine does not. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 12/10/2014 10:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-12-10 14:39, James Knott wrote:
After some testing, I discovered that the access point was allowing a lot of broadcasts & multicasts from the native LAN to the 2nd SSID. I would imagine that the original tester only verified VLANs and additional SSIDs worked with IPv4 and not IPv6. I received some networking training not long ago, this decade, some hundreds hours, and ipv6 was largely ignored. So that it is not well tested is not surprising, it is not even understood.
Many think that it is not coming. It will be somebody else's problem, and perhaps we can sell new hardware when it does, and training and support.
Many ISPs do not support it. Mine does not.
Your network training was inadequate. Anyone going for Cisco CCNA over the past couple of years would have extensive coverage of it. Even with the older program, it was covered. Regardless, my testing also showed IPv4 broadcasts crossing from the native to VLAN and that is something that's not ever supposed to happen. So, it's not an IPv6 problem, it's a defective VLAN implementation that in turn caused a problem for IPv6. If someone had actually monitored the VLAN traffic, they would have seen the problem, IPv6 or not. As for IPv6 adoption, the big problem is those who think IPv4 can be extended with hacks and ignore the problems those hacks cause. Some also seem to think NAT provides a better firewall, which is absolute nonsense. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/10/2014 11:51 AM, James Knott wrote:
Regardless, my testing also showed IPv4 broadcasts crossing from the native to VLAN and that is something that's not ever supposed to happen.
There are still people out there who are thinking that VLAN desperation is a security measure, that its the same as having two physically separate switches. There's no convincing some people, even when presenting them with evidence. "The book says ..." so it must be so. Through my university time and well into my career I was correcting textbooks; even the profs that wrote the books told us to make corrections in their own work. Not just misprints or errors&omissions but later thought and revision. Heck I've even see differing values for Planc's constant! -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/10/2014 12:31 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 12/10/2014 11:51 AM, James Knott wrote:
Regardless, my testing also showed IPv4 broadcasts crossing from the native to VLAN and that is something that's not ever supposed to happen. There are still people out there who are thinking that VLAN desperation is a security measure, that its the same as having two physically separate switches.
That would depend on what you mean by security. It does provide separation of subnets, so that, for example, access to a restricted network can be blocked by a firewall. But it does nothing to stop someone from running Wireshark to see the traffic or bringing in another managed switch to give access to the forbidden subnet/VLAN. Regardless, it is another barrier to overcome, which most users won't be able to breach. As for someone bringing in a switch, there is also some protection against that, in that the port can be shut down if STP is detected on it. That said, security is a many layered thing. It's like an onion, with multiple layers, none of which can be guaranteed to be absolutely secure, but when they all stack up, it becomes more and more difficult to breach. VLANs are just one layer of that onion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 23:50, Doug ha scritto:
On 12/08/2014 08:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2014-12-08 18:23, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 08/12/2014 12:37, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
Guess *you* didn't test it, therefore developers and packagers didn't realise it was broken. And this is a universal problem with all of FOSS.
Me?
I'm not tester,
Yes, you are. We all are. :-)
That's what openSUSE, Linux and most opensource is about, everybody helps. There is nobody that is paid to test, so unless the users test things, nobody will.
So, the next step now is that you, as the only person here that has experimented this problem, report it officially in Bugzilla.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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I don't think everything you said is true. Some of the Linux distros have paid programmers, and I'm sure that they must do some testing before they put an app out. Even programmers who donate their time must do some testing too.No programmer I ever knew would just write code and ship! And in a long engineering career, I've known quite a few!
--doug code and ship it without
+1! -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Il 08/12/2014 02:36, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-08 02:22, Marco Calistri wrote: <snip>
Brasero is definitely broken and it is not broken just on openeSUSE as my research over the Web has demonstrated: Ubuntu,Arch,Fedora... all suffering from same error related to this:
** (brasero:3023): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files sequential) W blank
Wonder how a broken package went included into a final distribution, aren't there testers/checkers of the bundled software?
openSUSE has autoQA that test lots of core functionality. Submissions to add new tests I'm sure are welcome, but if you need a DVD drive to test I don't think that is available in autoQA. Beyond that each package has a maintainer and each maintainer should perform basic tests for each package they maintain at a minimum. In addition, this last summer (2014), the pre-release "factory" distro had thousands of users so there should have been a lot of general purpose end user testing going on. The reality is that for little used apps testing is easier said than done, especially if one person is the maintainer for 100's of packages. Triply true if it is something in a dependency that changed and broke the higher level app. The build system itself will report any packages that won't build so that won't get into a release. The best thing any of us can do to ensure the quality of the releases is to keep a tumbleweed install running somewhere and test out the applications we want to ensure work in the next major release. Greg -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Il 08/12/2014 12:43, Greg Freemyer ha scritto:
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Marco Calistri <marco.calistri@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
Il 08/12/2014 02:36, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-08 02:22, Marco Calistri wrote: <snip>
Brasero is definitely broken and it is not broken just on openeSUSE as my research over the Web has demonstrated: Ubuntu,Arch,Fedora... all suffering from same error related to this:
** (brasero:3023): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files sequential) W blank
Wonder how a broken package went included into a final distribution, aren't there testers/checkers of the bundled software?
openSUSE has autoQA that test lots of core functionality. Submissions to add new tests I'm sure are welcome, but if you need a DVD drive to test I don't think that is available in autoQA.
Beyond that each package has a maintainer and each maintainer should perform basic tests for each package they maintain at a minimum.
In addition, this last summer (2014), the pre-release "factory" distro had thousands of users so there should have been a lot of general purpose end user testing going on.
The reality is that for little used apps testing is easier said than done, especially if one person is the maintainer for 100's of packages. Triply true if it is something in a dependency that changed and broke the higher level app. The build system itself will report any packages that won't build so that won't get into a release.
The best thing any of us can do to ensure the quality of the releases is to keep a tumbleweed install running somewhere and test out the applications we want to ensure work in the next major release.
Greg --
Greg, I appreciated a lot your answer, very detailed and professional. Hope that your last proposal being applied widely. Regards, -- Marco Calistri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/12/14 01:03, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 08/12/2014 02:36, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:
On 2014-12-08 02:22, Marco Calistri wrote:
Il 07/12/2014 02:44, Basil Chupin ha scritto:
On 07/12/14 01:18, Marco Calistri wrote:
...As the subject.
Annexed is the log: another very annoying problem! Why don't you use k3b instead? Easy to use. Never had a problem with k3b (except for a very short period some years ago). Is it k3b still available? Of course it is. Why would it be not available?
I resolved the problem by running ffmpeg on console to convert a wmv video into avi then DeveDe to create an ISO of such avi to burn on DVD: a bit slow method but worked perfectly! Ah, so you were asking brasero to do some type of multimedia conversion on the fly, not a simple data to iso burning? You didn't say anything about that. Now I notice in the log things related to conversions.
I've found and installed k3b, now I have two choice:
1) do as I did previously using manual conversion + devede
2) trying k3b
Look, stop with the "noise" :-) . Use k3b to burn your DVDs/CDs/ISOs/whatever - works perfectly for this sort of thing - and use 'manual' conversion/devede/whatever to do any conversions. Let life go on :-)
Brasero is definitely broken and it is not broken just on openeSUSE as my research over the Web has demonstrated: Ubuntu,Arch,Fedora... all suffering from same error related to this:
** (brasero:3023): WARNING **: Failed to inhibit the system from suspending: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files sequential) W blank
Wonder how a broken package went included into a final distribution, aren't there testers/checkers of the bundled software?
Regards,
BC -- Using openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4.14.3 & kernel 3.17.6-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (14)
-
Anton Aylward -
Basil Chupin -
Bob Williams -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Doug -
ellanios82 -
Greg Freemyer -
Hans Witvliet -
James Knott -
jdd -
Marco Calistri -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen