Re: Re: [SLE] unsubscription

Moussa Fall

7 Oct 2004 7 Oct '04

07:49

I have the same problem. Tried everything but failed to unsubscribe. There should be a way that the admin manually unsubscribe people who wish to leave the list.

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The 2004-10-06 at 16:17 -0400, Allen wrote:

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Well, when you sign up you are given an Email that tells you HOW to get away from the list.

Now and then some people complain that they try (correctly), but don't get unsubscribed. Then, they write to the admin, and they get no answer... so they mail the list.

I can not corroborate this - except that getting an answer from the admin is becoming very dificult. Sometimes I have had to go to the feedback form to get a response.

-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

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Paul W. Abrahams

7 Oct 7 Oct

18:01

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

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I have the same problem. Tried everything but failed to unsubscribe. There should be a way that the admin manually unsubscribe people who wish to leave

On Thursday 07 October 2004 3:49 am, Moussa Fall wrote: the list. Here's the message at the bottom of every post:

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Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

The problem is that the default headers do *not* give the unsubscription address. At a minimum, the message on the first line should be changed to "Check the full headers for your unsubscription address." There are several ways to see the full headers, of course. But if someone can devise a one-liner that is more explicit, that would be great! The guiding principle is that the unsubscription procedure should be easy to figure out even for someone who has only very rudimentary knowledge of Linux. The rejoinder to "you should have known" comments is "you should have said". Paul Abrahams

Patrick Shanahan

18:15

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

* Paul W. Abrahams [10-07-04 13:04]:

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Here's the message at the bottom of every post:

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Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

The problem is that the default headers do *not* give the unsubscription address.

You need to qualify that statement. *Your* *default* headers do not.

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At a minimum, the message on the first line should be changed to "Check the full headers for your unsubscription address."

Agreed, but there are noob's who would not/could not/don't care/don't understand even this.

...

There are several ways to see the full headers, of course. But if someone can devise a one-liner that is more explicit, that would be great!

The guiding principle is that the unsubscription procedure should be easy to figure out even for someone who has only very rudimentary knowledge of Linux. The rejoinder to "you should have known" comments is "you should have said".

You *did* and supposedly everyone who has *subscribed* to this list, receive an email advising you the path to obtain help and to unsub upon your acknowledgement of your subscription. I can repost the one I rec'd some years ago, if you are interested, but you rec'd the same. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

Paul W. Abrahams

19:00

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

On Thursday 07 October 2004 2:15 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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The problem is that the default headers do *not* give the unsubscription address.

You need to qualify that statement. *Your* *default* headers do not.

I'd say the default headers are the ones that you get if you use Konqueror or Mozilla "out of the box", which is how most people use them. We're talking about unsophisticated users here, not aficionados like you, Patrick. (That's a compliment, by the way!)

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You *did* and supposedly everyone who has *subscribed* to this list, receive an email advising you the path to obtain help and to unsub upon your acknowledgement of your subscription. I can repost the one I rec'd some years ago, if you are interested, but you rec'd the same.

Oh, I know well enough how to unsubscribe. The problem is those folks who can't figure it out and so plague the list with their fruitless attempts at it. It seems to me that a fundamental principle of user-interface design is that you accept people as they are instead of how you think they ought to be. So I'd frame the question like this: the existing unsubscription instructions clearly fail to enlighten everyone who is seeking enlightenment. So is there a way to redo either the instructions or their placement so that those who are mystified will be mystified no longer? Paul

Anders Johansson

19:07

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

On Thursday, 7 October 2004 21.00, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

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On Thursday 07 October 2004 2:15 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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The problem is that the default headers do *not* give the unsubscription address.

You need to qualify that statement. *Your* *default* headers do not.

I'd say the default headers are the ones that you get if you use Konqueror or Mozilla "out of the box", which is how most people use them.

konqueror?

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We're talking about unsophisticated users here, not aficionados like you, Patrick. (That's a compliment, by the way!)

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You *did* and supposedly everyone who has *subscribed* to this list, receive an email advising you the path to obtain help and to unsub upon your acknowledgement of your subscription. I can repost the one I rec'd some years ago, if you are interested, but you rec'd the same.

Oh, I know well enough how to unsubscribe. The problem is those folks who can't figure it out and so plague the list with their fruitless attempts at it.

It seems to me that a fundamental principle of user-interface design is that you accept people as they are instead of how you think they ought to be.

You mean design to the lowest common denominator?

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So I'd frame the question like this: the existing unsubscription instructions clearly fail to enlighten everyone who is seeking enlightenment. So is there a way to redo either the instructions or their placement so that those who are mystified will be mystified no longer?

When you subscribe you get a mail from the list manager. You don't have to scroll to see the line "To unsubscribe, send a message to:" followed by the unsubscription address. Anyone who reads that will know how to do it. The people who can't unsubscribe cannot possibly have read it. So how do you design instructions for people who won't read instructions? That's a bit Zen, isn't it?

Ken Schneider

21:51

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

On Thu, 2004-10-07 at 15:00, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

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On Thursday 07 October 2004 2:15 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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I'd say the default headers are the ones that you get if you use Konqueror or Mozilla "out of the box", which is how most people use them. We're talking about unsophisticated users here, not aficionados like you, Patrick. (That's a compliment, by the way!)

...

Oh, I know well enough how to unsubscribe. The problem is those folks who can't figure it out and so plague the list with their fruitless attempts at it.

It seems to me that a fundamental principle of user-interface design is that you accept people as they are instead of how you think they ought to be. So I'd frame the question like this: the existing unsubscription instructions clearly fail to enlighten everyone who is seeking enlightenment. So is there a way to redo either the instructions or their placement so that those who are mystified will be mystified no longer?

I suppose they could use all caps on the subscription ack email pointing to NOT delete the email message so people will have it for future reference. Or perhaps those same people that "don't have a clue" about how to unsubscribe just failed to read the email welcoming them to list with all of the information on how to unsubscribe. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989 SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please*

Patrick Shanahan

21:54

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

* Paul W. Abrahams [10-07-04 14:01]:

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We're talking about unsophisticated users here, not aficionados like you, Patrick. (That's a compliment, by the way!)

Sarcasm noted.

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Oh, I know well enough how to unsubscribe. The problem is those folks who can't figure it out and so plague the list with their fruitless attempts at it.

Are you suggesting that the confirmation email does not explain this action?

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It seems to me that a fundamental principle of user-interface design is that you accept people as they are instead of how you think they ought to be.

So we should believe that no-one can read or comprehend. That does not leave a remote avenue to educate or explain the requested action.

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So I'd frame the question like this: the existing unsubscription instructions clearly fail to enlighten everyone who is seeking enlightenment.

The original confirmation email that everyone receives on successful subscription to this forum does *clearly* explain, not fail.

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So is there a way to redo either the instructions or their placement so that those who are mystified will be mystified no longer?

Perhaps another acknowledgement that the confirmation email has been read and understood, but I doubt that it would make any difference. partial quote of the confirmation email: --- Administrative commands for the suse-linux-e list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, send a message to: Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list: -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

Gene Holmerud

21:49

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

The header that Opera displayed for the message from Patrick includes the following: [quote]Mailing-List: contact suse-linux-e-help@suse.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: mailto:suse-linux-e-help@suse.com list-unsubscribe: mailto:suse-linux-e-unsubscribe-geneous=cox.net@suse.com list-post: mailto:suse-linux-e@suse.com ]unquote] I used the address in the "list-unsubscribe" field (without the "mailto:") and received a confirmation message from "the ezmlm program", which I will reply to. Farewell, Gene On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:15:08 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Paul W. Abrahams [10-07-04 13:04]:

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Here's the message at the bottom of every post:

...
Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

The problem is that the default headers do *not* give the unsubscription address.

You need to qualify that statement. *Your* *default* headers do not.

...
At a minimum, the message on the first line should be changed to "Check the full headers for your unsubscription address."

Agreed, but there are noob's who would not/could not/don't care/don't understand even this.

...
There are several ways to see the full headers, of course. But if someone can devise a one-liner that is more explicit, that would be great!

The guiding principle is that the unsubscription procedure should be easy to figure out even for someone who has only very rudimentary knowledge of Linux. The rejoinder to "you should have known" comments is "you should have said".

You *did* and supposedly everyone who has *subscribed* to this list, receive an email advising you the path to obtain help and to unsub upon your acknowledgement of your subscription. I can repost the one I rec'd some years ago, if you are interested, but you rec'd the same.

-- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Paul W. Abrahams

22:07

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

On Thursday 07 October 2004 5:49 pm, Gene Holmerud wrote:

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The header that Opera displayed for the message from Patrick includes the following:

[quote]Mailing-List: contact suse-linux-e-help@suse.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: mailto:suse-linux-e-help@suse.com list-unsubscribe: mailto:suse-linux-e-unsubscribe-geneous=cox.net@suse.com list-post: mailto:suse-linux-e@suse.com ]unquote]

I used the address in the "list-unsubscribe" field (without the "mailto:") and received a confirmation message from "the ezmlm program", which I will reply to.

Apparently the default depends on which browser you're using. I didn't realize that Opera defaults to more complete headers than Konqueror. Paul

Anders Johansson

22:16

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

On Friday, 8 October 2004 00.07, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

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Apparently the default depends on which browser you're using. I didn't realize that Opera defaults to more complete headers than Konqueror.

If you are using konqueror for reading mail, then you are using web mail, n'est-ce pas? So the defaults would be in your web mail app

Paul W. Abrahams

23:32

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

On Thursday 07 October 2004 6:16 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Friday, 8 October 2004 00.07, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

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Apparently the default depends on which browser you're using. I didn't realize that Opera defaults to more complete headers than Konqueror.

If you are using konqueror for reading mail, then you are using web mail, n'est-ce pas? So the defaults would be in your web mail app

Sorry, I misspoke. I'm using kmail. Paul

Gene Holmerud

10 Oct 10 Oct

02:27

New subject: Fwd: Re: [SLE] unsubscription

So much for following instructions. 48+ hrs later, I'm still getting posts! ------- Forwarded message ------- From: Gene Holmerud To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] unsubscription Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 14:49:03 -0700

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The header that Opera displayed for the message from Patrick includes the following:

[quote]Mailing-List: contact suse-linux-e-help@suse.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: mailto:suse-linux-e-help@suse.com list-unsubscribe: mailto:suse-linux-e-unsubscribe-geneous=cox.net@suse.com list-post: mailto:suse-linux-e@suse.com ]unquote]

I used the address in the "list-unsubscribe" field (without the "mailto:") and received a confirmation message from "the ezmlm program", which I will reply to.

Farewell, Gene

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:15:08 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Paul W. Abrahams [10-07-04 13:04]:

...
Here's the message at the bottom of every post:

...
Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

The problem is that the default headers do *not* give the unsubscription address.

You need to qualify that statement. *Your* *default* headers do not.

...
At a minimum, the message on the first line should be changed to "Check the full headers for your unsubscription address."

Agreed, but there are noob's who would not/could not/don't care/don't understand even this.

...
There are several ways to see the full headers, of course. But if someone can devise a one-liner that is more explicit, that would be great!

The guiding principle is that the unsubscription procedure should be easy to figure out even for someone who has only very rudimentary knowledge of Linux. The rejoinder to "you should have known" comments is "you should have said".

You *did* and supposedly everyone who has *subscribed* to this list, receive an email advising you the path to obtain help and to unsub upon your acknowledgement of your subscription. I can repost the one I rec'd some years ago, if you are interested, but you rec'd the same.

-- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Ken Schneider

03:35

New subject: Fwd: Re: [SLE] unsubscription

On Sat, 2004-10-09 at 22:27, Gene Holmerud wrote:

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So much for following instructions. 48+ hrs later, I'm still getting posts!

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list-unsubscribe:

If you send an empty email to the following address you should get a confirmation email and just reply to it. suse-linux-e-unsubscribe-geneous=cox.net@suse.com -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989 SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please*

Carlos E. R.

8 Oct 8 Oct

00:16

New subject: [SLE] unsubscription

The Thursday 2004-10-07 at 13:15 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Paul W. Abrahams [10-07-04 13:04]:

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At a minimum, the message on the first line should be changed to "Check the full headers for your unsubscription address."

Agreed, but there are noob's who would not/could not/don't care/don't understand even this.

You are both missing the point I mentioned, and that at least two other people confirmed on this thread: even following the correct procedure (seemingly), some people can not unsubscribe. Thus, they require manual action, ie, human help; they email the admin, get no response, and finally, they email the list. This doesn't always happen, but it does happen. But I do know that reaching the list admin is sometimes very dificult: as I said, at least once I have had to go to the feedback web page to get a human person to respond (not to unsubscribe, in my case). -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

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participants (7)

Anders Johansson
Carlos E. R.
Gene Holmerud
Ken Schneider
Moussa Fall
Patrick Shanahan
Paul W. Abrahams