-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 18 May 2003 12:42, Christopher Mahmood wrote:

* Nick Zentena (zentena@hophead.dyndns.org) [030517 09:04]:

...

It's this. When you sent your message to the list it gets forward to all the list members. Well this one changed his email and all the people emailing his old one are getting this email.

Yes, but autoreplies and bounces should only go to the sender from, not any addresses listed in the headers. In the correct case the chucker would just get unsubscribed from the list and no one would know. If we set a reply-to-list these might end up on the list.

Anyway, I'll get the full headers from this post

--

-ckm

Hmmm...I didn't know this would be somewhat important to you like that Christopher. I got 3 more today (3 of the same exact thing though, not 3 different addre4sses), but since I didn't take it as being a big deal, I deleted them...sorry. I don't suppose theres a way I might can find them again and send them/it to you too? John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yFvMH5oDXyLKXKQRAqpjAKCiEIOuRpKZ50ZWWbD3C+hwPqFeMwCgn7bq ElOvr+Z8Z3fkoECwWrmLLQI= =FYRR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Saturday 17 May 2003 13:33, Curtis Rey wrote:

On Saturday 17 May 2003 02:15, John wrote:

...

Heya gang,

This came in my mailbox, and I have no clue what the heck it is or where it came from, and yet it's got the subject header that I did to ask Curtis those silly questions. Anyone have an idea why I got this or where it came from? I thought I'd been pretty good about keeping this email address *only* on this mailing list and one other place...have I just lost the battle and need to begin worryin' about spam now? (I can always create another email address, my ISP allows me 5, so it's no big deal) Here's what I got:

Ya, I got two of those. One the last time I posted to answer the guys post about X and the other when replying to those silly questions.

What gives. I misconfig server or something more dubious?

It looks like someone subscribed with an old address that has been changed. The user should have unsubscribed from his old address and subscribed with his new one. More irritating than anything else. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 8.1 Kernel 2.4.19 KDE 3.1.1 Kmail 1.5.1 For SuSE Mondo/Mindi backup support go to http://www.mikenjane.net/~mike 11:50am up 7 days, 14:44, 7 users, load average: 1.95, 1.89, 1.83

* Ted Harding; on 18 May, 2003 wrote:

This is not as weird as it looks.

The English section is a translation of the Turkish section which precedes it; the fact that you may be seeing "weird" characters is simply due to the fact that the message was sent with iso-8859-9 (Turkish) encoding, whereas you are probably reading them with iso-8859-1 encoding; to see them as they are meant to be seen you would need to switch your email reader into "Turkish" encoding (and you would also need to link this to Turkish fonts).

Correct

As to what the message is about, it looks like an error-bounce back to you (as originator of the message) to the effect that whoever "username@turk.net" may be (pity it does not say what "username" is) is now at "username@tnn.net" -- presumably one of the people that the SuSE list tries to deliver to -- and while they have obligingly delivered it this time, they are asking you (actually SuSE) to change the address to the new form as soon as possible.

Correct. As Turkish I can even guess who the mail is for. :-) Turk.net is one of the 5 big ISPs in Turkey and recently they have changed their name just type www.turk.net and it will say their new address is www.tnn.net. So actually the mailing participant who has a email address with the turk.net domain has to unsubscribe and then resubscibe wit the tnn.net domain. -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx

* John (yonaton@tds.net) [030519 15:40]:

Okay, I'll take your word for it, heh, but why did *I* get it and no one else (at least I haven't heard from anyone else getting it, and I got 3 copies of the same exact thing)?

A lot of people got them but everyone else did the correct thing and told ml-admin@suse.com (or postmaster@suse.com or LISTNAME-owner or sysadmin@suse.com etc.) so I could take care of it instead of talking about it on the list where it doesn't. -- -ckm

The 03.05.19 at 19:24, John wrote:

Well excuse the hell out of me! I didn't *know* what to do or what it was or why I got them, and asked here about it and not one answer said anything about what you just said *should* have been done.

I did, but you didn't notice. Perhaps you do not thread the mail and don't see all the answers posted. ;-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 20 May 2003 04:28, oguzeren wrote:

Hi,

My ISP changed its name from turk.net to tnn.net this weekend, without informing its clients. I'm sorry for bounce-mails you rceived.

I resubscribed the list as you see, but not sure if i could succeed in unsubscribing old account yet. I confirmed my unsubscription request using my old address in the From field, but maybe the mail server replaces this with the new one, and i didn't receive a reply to confirmation.

I sent this also to the list owner.

Regards,

No need to apologize, it's just one of those 'twilight Zone' thngs that happens, heh. John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+yk9AH5oDXyLKXKQRAlVvAJ9pNFKYRgie1dUWv0eQZI5Qf2b4jgCeLC5m zadfwDrMhfItkvqqfVR9uAM= =ttKA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

The 03.05.19 at 20:07, Christopher Mahmood wrote:

The information you were sent when you subscribed (and asked politely to read) told you how to contact the list owner when you encounter problems with the list.

:-) Suggestion: On another list I moderate I post the rules once every month. perhaps you could do that here - post that text :-?

This isn't just some BOFH power trip contrary to what you are probably thinking. Occasionally very broken mail servers (or malicious jackasses) start resending list mail back through the lists after removing all of the headers that would allow the software to detect the mail loop. That's not what this was but it easily could have been.

Mmm... technical question: our posts get to list with our "from". If there is an error, "we" get posted back. Now, Is that the correct behavior by the "receiver side", or should it bounce to the envelope? Or should it detect it is a mailing list and do something else? I'm not talking about changing the "from" for the list, I just want to know what the other side should do :-)

The last serious mail loop we had caused almost 10 million messages to be sent in a matter of hours; if one of the subscribers on that list (it wasn't SLE) had bothered to email one of the correct contact addresses it would have been stopped in a matter of minutes instead of hours.

Ugh! That reminds me that the Spanish help test is not totally equivalent to the English one, some little things are missing. Anyway, that list is way more tolerant that this one: we have top posting, don't' trim messages, thread hijacking, html... you name it, but almost nobody complains, no flames ;-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

* Carlos E. R. (robin1.listas@tiscali.es) [030520 03:20]:

Suggestion: On another list I moderate I post the rules once every month. perhaps you could do that here - post that text :-?

I don't know if that will help.

Mmm... technical question: our posts get to list with our "from". If there is an error, "we" get posted back. Now, Is that the correct behavior by the "receiver side", or should it bounce to the envelope? Or should it detect it is a mailing list and do something else?

Always bounce to the envelope address. If it's an autoresponse, it's best to use a null sender from as well.

That reminds me that the Spanish help test is not totally equivalent to the English one, some little things are missing.

Well, my Spanish isn't really good enough to write those so I'm kind of dependent on volunteers (hint ;)).

Anyway, that list is way more tolerant that this one: we have top posting, don't' trim messages, thread hijacking, html... you name it, but almost nobody complains, no flames ;-)

Yeah, it seems to be a very civilized, friendly bunch. Of course, there are only about 600 people subscribed and a reasonable amount of traffic. -- -ckm

* Carlos E. R. (robin1.listas@tiscali.es) [030520 15:31]:

...

Always bounce to the envelope address. If it's an autoresponse, it's best to use a null sender from as well.

I see, that way loops are avoided. But sometimes, the envelope address is invented, as is my case (I don't have a permanent IP number).

The envelope (sender) from must be valid or everything breaks. You lose bounces, mailinglists won't work, and a lot sites won't even accept your mail anymore. tiscali.es seems real enough.

What would happened then? That could be the reasoning behind bouncing to the originator.

The originator is the envelope (sender) from, not the header from.

...

Well, my Spanish isn't really good enough to write those so I'm kind of dependent on volunteers (hint ;)).

Hint taken, I'll have a try - but I'm not fast at that :-)

Thanks, -- -ckm

On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 11:30:32PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I see, that way loops are avoided. But sometimes, the envelope address is invented, as is my case (I don't have a permanent IP number). What would happened then? That could be the reasoning behind bouncing to the originator.

You can't post from an invented envelope address. Envelope address in your post must be exactly the same address you are subscribed with. Otherwise your post will be just rejected. On the contrary, From: address in your post can be anything. Regards, -Kastus

On Thursday 22 May 2003 02.54, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Ok. Who sets the envelope address, postfix? (certainly not the mail client).

By default the email client. At one point I hacked kmail to set any envelope sender you want, while using a completely different header From:. By default in kmail, envelope sender and header From: are the same. But your mail server can be set to rewrite it. /usr/sbin/sendmail has a -f parameter to set the envelope sender

On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 07:44:57PM -0700 or thereabouts, Kastus wrote:

On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 02:54:59AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Ok. Who sets the envelope address, postfix? (certainly not the mail client).

Surprise, it's MUA. I'm not sure how to do it in pine, but in mutt you set the following variable:

envelope_from

Type: boolean Default: no

Mutt is very powerful, allowing one complete control over just about every aspect of your email... I like to call it Pine on steroids.. <g> I don't use the envelope_from, but rather use from hooks in the .muttrc file, so that for different groups I am on, it automatically selects the proper name in From: for that group. Mutt allows control over your envelope sender, which can be different from my From: as it is in my case. Many mail lists will subscribe users via the envelope only, as this list does, using ezmlm. So I can use a time dated From: address different from my envelope address (which I subscribed with) as above.

When set, mutt will try to derive the message's envelope sender from the "From:" header. Note that this information is passed to sendmail command using the "-f" command line switch, so don't set this option if you are using that switch in $sendmail yourself, or if the sendmail on your machine doesn't support that command line switch.

I use qmail on my servers, which will allow me to use its version of sendmail, or I just use qmail-inject with variables, called from Mutt, which allow me even further control over my email, and can use environmental variables to change ID's, etc... very effective against spam. -- Gary Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

The 03.05.21 at 19:44, Kastus wrote:

...

Ok. Who sets the envelope address, postfix? (certainly not the mail client).

Surprise, it's MUA. I'm not sure how to do it in pine, but in mutt you set the following variable:

I guess I should read again the email howto O:-) Ok, I have set up my other PC (suse 7.3, sendmail, named telperion), with sendmail started as: telperion:~ # sendmail -bD -q30m -om -X sendmail.log And from my main computer (suse 8.1, postfix, named nimrodel) I sent an email using pine and this same alias as on this list. As it is the first time I look at such a verbose log, I'll post it here for clarification - I don't know which one is the envelope from, although I think it is the "Return-Path" one. (some lines removed to reduce clutter) +++ Log Start ========================= 02368 >>> 220 telperion.valinor ESMTP Sendmail 8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:07:14 +0200 02368 <<< EHLO nimrodel.valinor 02368 >>> 250-telperion.valinor Hello nimrodel.valinor [192.168.100.2], pleased to meet you 02368 >>> 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES 02368 >>> 250-8BITMIME 02368 >>> 250-SIZE 02368 >>> 250-DSN 02368 >>> 250-ONEX 02368 >>> 250-ETRN 02368 >>> 250-XUSR 02368 >>> 250 HELP 02368 <<< MAIL FROM: SIZE=779 02369 >>> 250 2.1.0 ... Sender ok 02369 <<< RCPT TO: 02369 >>> 250 2.1.5 ... Recipient ok 02369 <<< DATA 02369 >>> 354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself 02369 <<< Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 02369 <<< by nimrodel.valinor (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2586330AD4 02369 <<< for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:08:00 +0200 (CEST) [... Cut: Data repeated below ] 02369 <<< . 02369 >>> 250 2.0.0 h4MA7E502369 Message accepted for delivery 02370 === EXEC procmail -f robin1.listas@tiscali.es -a -d cer 02370 >>> Return-Path: 02370 >>> Received: from nimrodel.valinor (nimrodel.valinor [192.168.100.2]) 02370 >>> by telperion.valinor (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h4MA7E502369 02370 >>> for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:07:15 +0200 02370 >>> Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 02370 >>> by nimrodel.valinor (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2586330AD4 02370 >>> for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:08:00 +0200 (CEST) 02370 >>> Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 02370 >>> by nimrodel.valinor (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4331230A7E 02370 >>> for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 12:07:59 +0200 (CEST) 02370 >>> Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:07:59 +0200 (CEST) 02370 >>> From: "Carlos E. R." 02370 >>> X-X-Sender: cer@nimrodel.valinor 02370 >>> To: cer@telperion.valinor 02370 >>> Subject: probando otra vez log del sendmail 02370 >>> Message-ID: 02370 >>> MIME-Version: 1.0 02370 >>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 02370 >>> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 02370 >>> 02370 >>> 02370 >>> 02370 >>> 02370 >>> 02370 >>> -- 02370 >>> Cheers, 02370 >>> Carlos Robinson 02370 >>> 02368 <<< QUIT 02368 >>> 221 2.0.0 telperion.valinor closing connection 02370 <<< [EOF] ============================ Log End++- So, is this "02370 >>> Return-Path: " the envelope header? Or is it the "X-X-Sender: cer@nimrodel.valinor"? -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The 03.05.22 at 13:11, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

02368 <<< MAIL FROM: SIZE=779

...

So, is this "02370 >>> Return-Path: " the envelope header? Or is it the "X-X-Sender: cer@nimrodel.valinor"?

Neither. Both those are in the DATA section of the email. The line I snipped above is the envelope sender

But the "Return-Path" does not appear in the received data, it seems to be added by the receiver sendmail, probably created from the "MAIL FROM:" line precisely. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The 03.05.19 at 17:46, John wrote:

Okay, I'll take your word for it, heh, but why did *I* get it and no one else (at least I haven't heard from anyone else getting it, and I got 3 copies of the same exact thing)?

Maybe you were the intended victim X'-) No, we did as well. Don't you remember I told you you should inform the list owner? This kind of thing happens now and then. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The 03.05.20 at 11:01, John wrote:

...

Maybe you were the intended victim X'-)

No, we did as well. Don't you remember I told you you should inform the list owner? This kind of thing happens now and then.

Sorry Carlos, I really don't remember (haven't been able to get my Adderall in 3 weeks, and this ADD is screwin' with me real bad). But if you did tell me, I'll go apologize to ckt.

Maybe I told you too tersely as well, it was a bit of a hint. Er... perhaps I'm intruding, but what is ADD? Not being english my first language, acronyms are difficult. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 20 May 2003 16:20, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The 03.05.20 at 11:01, John wrote:

...

...

Maybe you were the intended victim X'-)

No, we did as well. Don't you remember I told you you should inform the list owner? This kind of thing happens now and then.

Sorry Carlos, I really don't remember (haven't been able to get my Adderall in 3 weeks, and this ADD is screwin' with me real bad). But if you did tell me, I'll go apologize to ckt.

Maybe I told you too tersely as well, it was a bit of a hint.

Er... perhaps I'm intruding, but what is ADD? Not being english my first language, acronyms are difficult.

-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

No intrusion at all (not to me it isn't, heh). It's not? You do pretty darn good for it not being your second language! (better than me I've noticed, LOL) ADD/ADHD= Attention Deficit Disorder/Attention Deficit-Hyperactive Disorder It'll be much easier if you look it up now that you know what it stands for, instead of me trying to explain what it is/does (it'd take me a year and I don't want to clog up the list more than I have already, heh, and this isn't meant to sound smart-assy or anything, just that it really would be easier for you to look it up on yahoo or google I think). Take care and be good, John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+y70SH5oDXyLKXKQRAoYaAKCw7FH2JkFXVFEh6PW78p6oi/9I8ACgqsyO uav0aTm2ugtec+jjz6gBpyY= =Nbub -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----