[opensuse] What can be done with raw (.NEF) photographs?

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Carlos E. R.

12 Sep 2015 12 Sep '15

01:06

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I got a new camera as a present, a Nikon D3200. Nice :-) I was, I think, an experienced amateur photographer, using film. I developed them, in B/W. Colour I didn't have the setup, complex and expensive. When digital photography came, I considered it low quality compared to what could be acchieved with chemical photography, as high resolution cameras were really expensive. Eventually I stopped doing photographs, as chemical photography about disapeared. I only got a 12Mpixel pocket camera about 2010, a Samsung. I'm happy with it. So now I have a fairly decent camera, 24 Mpixels and reasonably good optics (reviewers say it is an entry level camera, though). Linux recognizes my camera out of the box. I have it set to store both raw and jpeg files for each photos. I notice that shotwell prefers to display .NEF photos, and sometimes creates jpeg files from them. I think it calls the process "developing". It can be done by the camera or by shotwell. You see, what I need to learn first is what can be done with raw (.NEF) photos, concepts, and what software is appropriate in Linux. For the first and second items, I need the FM of RTFM ;-) , so if you know of good reads, please share ;-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlXzXlsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VBCACfW4Rf+1Rx6eliaDGk3uQhSXMi G6cAn0FKsAivA3SsmVwg3rnIMA1nsI2q =z9eC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Daniel Bauer

12 Sep 12 Sep

10:50

Am 12.09.2015 um 01:06 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

I have it set to store both raw and jpeg files for each photos.

That's what I do, too.

...

I notice that shotwell prefers to display .NEF photos, and sometimes creates jpeg files from them. I think it calls the process "developing". It can be done by the camera or by shotwell.

The camera "develops" the received information according to the settings of the camera (like effects, black-and-white, enhanced colors, sharpening, correction of lens distortion, what ever...) and saves it as the jpg-version. This is a processed version.

...

You see, what I need to learn first is what can be done with raw (.NEF) photos, concepts,

Raw files contain all the information your camera could save with it's chip, not applying any processing. Even if you set your camera to, say, black and white, the raw file will still have all the color information, uncompressed, with no loss. This is *much* more information than the jpg has. From raw you can easily correct many things. For example there is information in the dark parts that just remain black in the jpg, or light parts that remain white. You can even construct "hdr"-images (within limits) from raw. Imagine a raw as a negative. Later, "in the drakroom" you choose the gradation of the photo paper, the contrasts, you develop one part more than the other... all this you can do with raw, but not with jpg. On the other hand very often the cameras are so intelligent that they produce quite optimal jpg's, especially if you have set it to highest quality and largest size. So for many images it might not be necessary to go thru the raw process, because the cameras result is already good enough. I always convert jpg's to png for further working. Jpg looses information on every save due to compressing, png doesn't. and what software is appropriate in Linux. In fact I gave up "developing" raw's in Linux. The results didn't convince me or it was too complicated to achieve good results. So I use the camera manufacturers program on a Windows in Virtual Box. Except for the Sony, who's software is - to say it nice - crap. There I use DxO Optics, also on Win XP. If you have a virtual Win I'd give a try to Nikon's software that came with your camera. It's probably the easiest way to get used to the raw process. Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion. Lots of people "develop" raws purely on linux and are happy with it and it's about two years since I last went thru the linux raw programs: many thing might have bettered meanwhile. I guess all these programs have their websites, forums, mailing lists... Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona http://www.daniel-bauer.com room in Barcelona: https://www.airbnb.es/rooms/2416137 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:22

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-12 10:50, Daniel Bauer wrote:

...

The camera "develops" the received information according to the settings of the camera (like effects, black-and-white, enhanced colors, sharpening, correction of lens distortion, what ever...) and saves it as the jpg-version. This is a processed version.

Aha.

...

...
You see, what I need to learn first is what can be done with raw (.NEF) photos, concepts,

Raw files contain all the information your camera could save with it's chip, not applying any processing. Even if you set your camera to, say, black and white, the raw file will still have all the color information, uncompressed, with no loss.

That's good... so that you can rectify the choices. Those in software, that is, not aperture, speed, iso, focus... Wait! There is a camera somewhere that can correct focus. I understand it has several layers of sensors, or that it senses the direction of the photons, and thus can reconstruct the focus, too. Very strange.

...

This is *much* more information than the jpg has. From raw you can easily correct many things. For example there is information in the dark parts that just remain black in the jpg, or light parts that remain white. You can even construct "hdr"-images (within limits) from raw. Imagine a raw as a negative. Later, "in the drakroom" you choose the gradation of the photo paper, the contrasts, you develop one part more than the other... all this you can do with raw, but not with jpg.

I saw a program, back in 1991, that took astronomical tiff photos and made visible details that the eye could not see in them. It was quite slow, so I started to redo it in Pascal. Those sensors came coupled with a thermoelectric cooling device (Peltier cell), to keep them as cold as possible. If you do a total dark photo, there is some luminiscence in a corner due to the integrated circuit heat, which is used to do the reading. So a trick is to substract a dark photo from the real photo. I believe this is also possible with my camera. Perhaps. I saw a mention of a dust removal technique in the camera menu, but it requires some specific software from them, not the one they put in the CD. It is extra.

...

On the other hand very often the cameras are so intelligent that they produce quite optimal jpg's, especially if you have set it to highest quality and largest size. So for many images it might not be necessary to go thru the raw process, because the cameras result is already good enough.

I thought so, yes.

...

I always convert jpg's to png for further working. Jpg looses information on every save due to compressing, png doesn't.

True. I wonder why cameras do not offer that choice.

...

...
and what software is appropriate in Linux.

In fact I gave up "developing" raw's in Linux. The results didn't convince me or it was too complicated to achieve good results. So I use the camera manufacturers program on a Windows in Virtual Box. Except for the Sony, who's software is - to say it nice - crap. There I use DxO Optics, also on Win XP.

I still have to install it in Windows. Perhaps I'm lucky and it runs under Wine. I don't have virtualization in the laptop; on the desktop I do, but I don't have a valid Windows 7 (or later) license for it.

...

If you have a virtual Win I'd give a try to Nikon's software that came with your camera. It's probably the easiest way to get used to the raw process.

Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion. Lots of people "develop" raws purely on linux and are happy with it and it's about two years since I last went thru the linux raw programs: many thing might have bettered meanwhile. I guess all these programs have their websites, forums, mailing lists...

:-)) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlX0e4oACgkQja8UbcUWM1xH0gD/YBYOXf2P+dfiWbHQWJJRlZs0 E+t0ghxm26h/QQ4AppoA/jrc3nMZLniFPQAF9CHh+scDruB9xfL6TnHEvHox+mtS =kanh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

21:39

On 09/12/2015 03:22 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
...
On the other hand very often the cameras are so intelligent that they produce quite optimal jpg's, especially if you have set it to highest quality and largest size. So for many images it might not be necessary to go thru the raw process, because the cameras result is already good enough.

...

I thought so, yes.

*sigh* The issue isn't "good" or bad" but which interpretation. If you read some of the online articles about RAW processing you'll see the variations that can be done with the the same RAW but very different end results. All "good" photographs but all different. Working with RAW and something like darktable - which yes, Daniel, has come a long way in the last couple of years (but perhaps not in the direction YOU specifically want, but isn't that always the case with software?) I've masked end enahnced and made so-so images into something displayable. And the camera's limited algorithms simply can't do that! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David Haller

13 Sep 13 Sep

07:24

Hello, On Sat, 12 Sep 2015, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

That's good... so that you can rectify the choices. Those in software, that is, not aperture, speed, iso, focus... Wait! There is a camera somewhere that can correct focus. I understand it has several layers of sensors, or that it senses the direction of the photons, and thus can reconstruct the focus, too. Very strange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_field HTH, -dnh -- If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people He gave it to -- Dorothy Parker -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

12 Sep 12 Sep

21:31

On 09/12/2015 04:50 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

...

The camera "develops" the received information according to the settings of the camera (like effects, black-and-white, enhanced colors, sharpening, correction of lens distortion, what ever...) and saves it as the jpg-version. This is a processed version.

This is why I have my cameras set to RAW and not RAW+JPG. I don't WANT the camera's idea of how the raw image should be processed. I don't like its decisions. The same raw information can be processed many different way and this is one of the marketing hooks. but which is the "right" way? You might change your mind later. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Peter Ragosch

10:52

Am Sat, 12 Sep 2015 01:06:03 +0200 (CEST) schrieb "Carlos E. R." :

...

You see, what I need to learn first is what can be done with raw (.NEF) photos, concepts, and what software is appropriate in Linux. For the first and second items, I need the FM of RTFM ;-) , so if you know of good reads, please share ;-)

The raw format (digital negativ) can be taken as equal to analog negative. In opposite to JPEG the NEF is a lossless format. By using the digital negativ you can e.g.: - change the white balance - change the colour space - the colour depth is 12 to 16 bit, while JPEG is always limited to 8 bit Some Software under Linux: UFRaw - Convert camera RAW images to standard image files. lightzone - raw converter rawtherapee - an advanced cross-platform program for developing raw photos. darktable - a digital photography workflow application. gimp (with ufraw plug-in) - an image manipulation and paint program. Hope that helps for first start. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Kind Regards Peter Ragosch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Bob Williams

11:05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/09/15 09:52, Peter Ragosch wrote:

...

Some Software under Linux: UFRaw - Convert camera RAW images to standard image files. lightzone - raw converter rawtherapee - an advanced cross-platform program for developing raw photos. darktable - a digital photography workflow application. gimp (with ufraw plug-in) - an image manipulation and paint program.

Hope that helps for first start.

And if you don't mind paying money, Corel AfterShot Pro is good. Similar to Darktable, but I find the interface easier to navigate, and it comes with a useful help file. http://www.aftershotpro.com/en/products/aftershot-pro/ - -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.16.7-7-desktop Distro: openSUSE 13.2 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.3 Uptime: 06:00am up 7:55, 3 users, load average: 0.16, 0.05, 0.06 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXz6ucACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU7kswCgk7PdtkDAPKekOHs0LbcO5KTV 7yAAn3Zo0F+fSaeofbaajehKZKn7DQj+ =+OL4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:00

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-12 11:05, Bob Williams wrote:

...

And if you don't mind paying money, Corel AfterShot Pro is good. Similar to Darktable, but I find the interface easier to navigate, and it comes with a useful help file.

http://www.aftershotpro.com/en/products/aftershot-pro/

Well, I do mind about money ;-) But thanks :-) The camera comes with some software for Windows which I have not even installed yet. I have to have a look at what it does. I think it also comes with some courses :-? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlX0dlcACgkQja8UbcUWM1zWvQD7B/WksjnI9r5J4zds6g+9oAFm 1ShQH5Uok6tmMCZ/aMcA+wRnQxBTxKQsG2lzjXgZop2vtIx2EHLU20Ukhnvt8uBs =mbAS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:58

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-12 10:52, Peter Ragosch wrote:

...

Am Sat, 12 Sep 2015 01:06:03 +0200 (CEST) schrieb "Carlos E. R." :

...
You see, what I need to learn first is what can be done with raw (.NEF) photos, concepts, and what software is appropriate in Linux. For the first and second items, I need the FM of RTFM ;-) , so if you know of good reads, please share ;-)

The raw format (digital negativ) can be taken as equal to analog negative. In opposite to JPEG the NEF is a lossless format.

Yes, that's what I'm learning.

...

By using the digital negativ you can e.g.: - change the white balance - change the colour space - the colour depth is 12 to 16 bit, while JPEG is always limited to 8 bit

Aha.

...

Some Software under Linux: UFRaw - Convert camera RAW images to standard image files. lightzone - raw converter rawtherapee - an advanced cross-platform program for developing raw photos. darktable - a digital photography workflow application. gimp (with ufraw plug-in) - an image manipulation and paint program.

Hope that helps for first start.

Thanks. What about reads, anyone? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlX0decACgkQja8UbcUWM1zgTgEAkkOxnYuhn9pNAP6lpxtoFEH5 kDwmMRr8/siwWBiFgksA/jLgfrY/t4mqMn/tCx9IsVM83BWe2MO+mH5tqSUfhQao =Wpgy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Anton Aylward
Bob Williams
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Daniel Bauer
David Haller
Peter Ragosch