Hi Jon, jonno@printsters.com wrote:

Who said S.u.S.E. is going to change its logo? I hope it doesn't; little salamander thing is what drew me to S.u.S.E. in the first place! Since, I have discovered more important strengths, obviously.

I'm glad to hear that. BTW: Actually, it's a chameleon... LenZ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lenz Grimmer S.u.S.E. GmbH <A HREF="mailto:grimmer@suse.de">mailto:grimmer@suse.de</A> Gebhardtstrasse 2 <A HREF="http://www.suse.de"><A HREF="http://www.suse.de</A">http://www.suse.de</A</A>> 90762 Fuerth, Germany - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Paul, If you noticed this was from an aol.com user. In general, they can't read :))) Happy 4th July, Why are we working today?? Lach - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

At 03:21 PM 7/3/98 +0100, you wrote:

Paul,

If you noticed this was from an aol.com user. In general, they can't read

:)))

Happy 4th July, Why are we working today??

Lach

July 4th is a holiday in the US but not in other parts of the world :) -- Arun Khan - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Hi! Trying to kill the keyboard, satan3@home.com produced:

...

how do people who can't read use email? SRRecords@aol.com wrote:

Note the host and you'll have your answer.

Wait till webtv people appear here. :-( <RANTING> Each time you found an absolute LOW POINT, your faith in the infinity of human stupidity *will* be restored. At least that person was kind enough to _ask_ **nicely**, which is kind of hard if all you can do is point'n'drool. (And people wonder why some are not absolutely excited of giving Linux to these people, knowing fully well who's gonna get all the questions ... ) </RANTING> -Wolfgang -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

My mother uses aol, as does a friend of mine. Aol users are not web-savvy people, it is simply a fact, not a condemnation. You have some resentment toward this list apparently. I would suggest that this probably isn't the appropriate place for you to erect your self-righteous soapbox and tell us all how petty and arrogant we are. Unsubscribing would probably make more sense if that's how you feel. Kristian Farren wrote:

Do you really think your that better than somebody just because of the f*****g ISP you choose? As somebody new to Linux I got to say that all off you who flood this mailing list with the "read the MAN,you moron", response do absolutely nothing to further the cause of a true alternate to the Microsoft juggernaut. I mean if you really feel that good about your self, well that's fine but keep it to yourself. Some of the posts on this list kind of remind me of grade school; you know how there is always that kid who's parents are smarter or richer or whatever?

Kristian Farren kf@wa.net

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

...

...

Wait till webtv people appear here. :-(

<RANTING>

Each time you found an absolute LOW POINT, your faith in the infinity of human stupidity *will* be restored. At least that person was kind enough to _ask_ **nicely**, which is kind of hard if all you can do is point'n'drool.

(And people wonder why some are not absolutely excited of giving Linux to these people, knowing fully well who's gonna get all the questions ... )

-- ==================================================================== Michael Lankton <A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org"><A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A">http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A</A>> ==================================================================== - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

I'd like to apologize for writing the e-mail that I sent to this group on 4/3, I guess I was venting after a having a lousy day at work. Whatever the reason was I had no right to be so rude, I am not rude in real life so I certainly should not be a vulgarian just because I sit here insulated behind a monitor and keyboard. What ever flames that were directed toward me were richly deserved. I think that this group is a great resource for those of us who are new to linux, and hope to learn from it as I continue in my knowledge of linux Kristian Farren kf@wa.net - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

As someone who belongs to alot of lists, and gets alot of mail, I think I see both sides. Linux has a factor to it you don't find with Windows users as much, it is a do it yourself, inquisitive attitude. I also think there is a lot of impatience. Part of where the impatience comes from, and the RTFM, comments is because alot of people just don't, sad as it sounds, _bother_ to RTFM and it simply is a rite of initiation. I think people lose patience when people as stuff where they are being asked the same basic questions over and over again, when if the person posting had taken a little initiative (something you don't need as much with Windows and Macs) they could have solved their own problem without having to keep posting and reposting the same stuff. I think you'll find, that this list is one of the better ones, and _most_ linux lists are awesome in providing aid for the newbie and the experienced user, but you have to at least _LOOK_ like you have a frigging clue. If you don't...and the guy that posted that stuff about 'how do I unsubscribe?' when the answer was right at the bottom of the page, is basically just BEGGING to be flamed. It's unavoidable. You will see that if you do your homework many of these problems almost solve themselves, and if you ask a question, that shows you at least _tried_ to solve your own problem, you will most likely not be slammed with the RTFM. As someone who can be impatient, I have said some things I shouldn't have on this list from time to time. Don't take it personally, when someone goes RTFM. It's not an insult, it's just a helpful pointer. Take care, and good luck learning Linux. -M One is most dishonest towards one's God; he is not _permitted_ to sin. On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Kristian Farren wrote:

Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 23:51:36 -0700 From: Kristian Farren <kf@wa.net> Subject: Re: [S.u.S.E. Linux] Aol

Do you really think your that better than somebody just because of the f*****g ISP you choose? As somebody new to Linux I got to say that all off you who flood this mailing list with the "read the MAN,you moron", response do absolutely nothing to further the cause of a true alternate to the Microsoft juggernaut. I mean if you really feel that good about your self, well that's fine but keep it to yourself. Some of the posts on this list kind of remind me of grade school; you know how there is always that kid who's parents are smarter or richer or whatever?

Kristian Farren kf@wa.net

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

...

...

Wait till webtv people appear here. :-(

<RANTING>

Each time you found an absolute LOW POINT, your faith in the infinity of human stupidity *will* be restored. At least that person was kind enough to _ask_ **nicely**, which is kind of hard if all you can do is point'n'drool.

(And people wonder why some are not absolutely excited of giving Linux to these people, knowing fully well who's gonna get all the questions ... )

- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998, TEX wrote: snipped

I wanted to anyway. When I came to linux it took a while to be convinced that all the answers are in the howtos and man pages. It also took some time to learn how to read the man pages effectivly. (dweebspeak) Now I only is unclear. I used to get so po'd when someone said "read the manpage" now I too sometimes say things I probably shouldn't like RTFM.. Just keep reading and after awhile the veil will be lifted..

Actually, despite, some of the occasional RTFM comments, that seems to be mostly at questions that seem obvious or are posted repeatedly. I actually think many--no, _most_ people enjoy being of assistance, especially on the SuSE list. I just get annoyed when people don't bother to try to get what's going on and then start whining and bitching about linux and how it so hard to use. It can have a learning curve, but I think if you have what it takes and really want to give it a go, then it gives you the tools to do so. As you can tell, I'm not a part of the 'let's win over the Windows people crowd'. I just don't believe any one os is for everybody, and I wonder if some people are even suited to using linux. ( that's not meant to be a snotty comment, I just mean, it seems to depend on the user, whether they are willing to do the work to go through the learning process, as as we can see, for some people it does _not_ come easy, regardless of how we found it.) -M One is most dishonest towards one's God; he is not _permitted_ to sin. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998, Michael Lankton wrote:

I started using linux before I started using OSF1 at school, so linux was my first unix. I found it very frustrating at first, to the point of getting pissed, and I found that the questions I posed on irc weren't getting answered in a way that I could understand, and I just couldn't follow the documentation sometimes. I think this goaded me into a "by God, I'm gonna get this if it kills me" mentality. I uninstalled linux, went to Barnes and Noble, bought "Running Linux" and "Linux in a Nutshell" (both of which are available through SuSE btw). I sat down and read Running Linux from cover to cover, reinstalled linux, and parked Linux in a Nutshell on my desktop. After that, I had infinitely fewer questions, and the ones I did have were easily answered on irc because I was now able to communicate exactly what my problem was, as well as having better knowledge of my system. RTFM is applicable most of them time, but this list exists for those with knowledge to share it with those who need it, so rarely will you get rtfm as an answer on this list.

Michael, you're right. You don't see much here, of the RFTM variety, but I think the original poster, who complained about what she/he percieved as insulting arrogance towards newbies, was probably speaking of linux in general, not just the SuSE list. And to an extent, I see what they mean. People use strong words on these groups, myself included, and all I meant was 'chill out' and don't take it personally, and get beyond it. I even saw some guy call Linus himself a 'pinhead' on some list the other day in response to a kernel issue. In general, on many lists, you *DO* see the occasional RTFM---I just say screw it. Go beyond it. Linux is a great os, but one won't be coddled. I learned pretty much as you did. Though, even with books, it took me a while to figure out which books to buy, as some can be a bit technical and others are TOO newbie oriented and either don't get beyond unix basics, or are outgrown so fast you wonder if it's worth the cost. -M - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

I have followed essentially the same approach. I had zero experience with Unix up to this point--only Windows95. I went to the bookstore and snatched up four or five books on Unix and Linux. This was in March. I now have two computers running Linux, one of them a DEC Alpha, with SuSE and Redhat, and the latest kernels. Last month I figured out how to network them together, setting up a nameserver, etc. Next, I want to set up a raid array... My point, if I have one, is that this stuff isn't impossible. Difficult at times, sometimes maddening, but usually with a little help you can get it done. You can't accomplish anything by whining about how obscure Linux is, and "why can't it be like M$," and "how come some of them words are in German," etc. You have to make an honest effort--but if you fail, somone will usually help you. I also would like to say God Bless the LDP. N.B. I'm using Netscape 4.04 to read my mail--until I get IP marquerading and Postillion set up--and it seems like when I reply to a newsgroup, it fires off a copy of the message to the original poster. There is no indication of this behaviour in the "To:" field. So, if one of you gets a personal email in addition to the newsgroup post, please let me know so I can try to debug it. Adios, Robb. Michael Lankton wrote:

I started using linux before I started using OSF1 at school, so linux was my first unix. I found it very frustrating at first, to the point of getting pissed, and I found that the questions I posed on irc weren't getting answered in a way that I could understand, and I just couldn't follow the documentation sometimes. I think this goaded me into a "by God, I'm gonna get this if it kills me" mentality. I uninstalled linux, went to Barnes and Noble, bought "Running Linux" and "Linux in a Nutshell" (both of which are available through SuSE btw). I sat down and read Running Linux from cover to cover, reinstalled linux, and parked Linux in a Nutshell on my desktop. After that, I had infinitely fewer questions, and the ones I did have were easily answered on irc because I was now able to communicate exactly what my problem was, as well as having better knowledge of my system. RTFM is applicable most of them time, but this list exists for those with knowledge to share it with those who need it, so rarely will you get rtfm as an answer on this list.

-- Robb Romans So I shot 'em down One by one Southwest Texas State University Then I left 'em 'long the rails www.swt.edu/~rr44607 I only use my gun Whenever kindness fails -- Robert Earl Keen - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Hi! Trying to kill the keyboard, kf@wa.net produced:

Do you really think your that better than somebody just because of the f*****g ISP you choose?

No. But I am 'old' on the net, remembering the time before AOL had internet connection. "aol!" has become synonymous with 'Me too!'. (Posts consisting of 100+ lines of quoted text, with just a "Me too" tagged to the end). AOLlers stomped out on the net like hungry fireants, in force, too many without knowledge of the .netiquette, often behaving like an elephant in a chinese porcellain shop. They got their name. Nowadays AOL is tamer, especially when compared to other places and ISPs. Still, AOL has it's name. It's like coming from the bad part of town, with the difference that you *can* choose providers, but not always where you live. If someone gets messages from this list, they all have that little snippet at the end how to remove yourself off the list. Now, in true 'AOL'-Fashion, that person just replied, instead of reading the message bottom. Heck, it was only 21 lines of message, footer included ... so it was 'typical AOL'.

As somebody new to Linux I got to say that all off you who flood this mailing list with the "read the MAN,you moron",

Without 'you moron', if you please. What good is it to copy and paste the man pages, pray tell?

response do absolutely nothing to further the cause of a true alternate to the Microsoft juggernaut.

At least here you get the info you need. Try that next time with NT (and I know you use it) when you need to know something about a program.

I mean if you really feel that good about your self, well that's fine but keep it to yourself. Some of the posts on this list kind of remind me of grade school; you know how there is always that kid who's parents are smarter or richer or whatever?

BTW, tell your *browser* not to wrap your lines into alternating long and short snippets, that looks ugly and is harder to read than neccessary. As for the 'smarter or richer or whatever', I feel it's more useful to point people towards information (so that they may learn where to look for it) instead of predigesting it for them. It's like giving a hungry man a fish instead of a fishing net. Oh, you DID see the <RANTING> and </RANTING>, didn't you? If you did not, blame your browser. <!-- Darn browsers don't show everything! *grumble* --> -Wolfgang -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e