Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
Thank you for replying, Vincenzo -- I hope you are right. I ask to be proven wrong. I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed. I did finally figure out how to put the taskbar panel on the right edge of the screen. It's not a control panel option: Instead, I have to click on the taskbar directly. If I am missing something, please tell me. I've been a big fan of Linux for the last ten years. This is the first time that a new version has left me seriously disappointed. --- On Fri, 2/19/10, barravince@gmail.com <barravince@gmail.com> wrote:
From: barravince@gmail.com <barravince@gmail.com> Subject: R: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: "Charles Obler" <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:22 AM Hi, All the functionality that you have "missed" are simply configurable trough the kde control panel. And you can't say That opensuse is worst than previouses versions, zypper is faster than ever, the boot time I think is one of fasters by the others distributions, you are saying only empty words. Remember that there is a community that can help you in a lot of ways, just moderate the terms.
Vincenzo Vincenzo Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message----- From: Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:11:31 To: <opensuse@opensuse.org> Subject: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality. It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users. Tell me I'm wrong!
Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4. Something has gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE. Here are some of the things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in 11.2:
Shortcut keys: * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2. * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops. Function not available in 11.2.
Desktop: * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color. In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome. * in 10.2, my screensavers work. In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.
USB Memory: * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory. In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin. Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.
KDE Version: * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version. In fact, it doesn't even display KDE! Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!
Internet: * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!
In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7. I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this. Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?
I still have an open mind. I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality. Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH! It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux! For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.
Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line option. After all, only "geeks" use it! This regression really makes me sick. What are they thinking, over at KDE?! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:40, Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed.
Don't make the mistake a few others here have made. KDE4 is *NOT* KDE3.5 plus bug fixes. It is conceptually different than KDE3. Good or bad, that's what it is. it works differently, it uses newer/different desktop management tools and concepts. If you insist on making KDE4 look and behave click/keypress identical to KDE3.5, you're setting yourself up for major pain and trouble. Learn the KDE4 "way" of doing things (it won't take much time... most of it (but not all just yet) is pretty intuitive)... sometimes the same functionality you are used to from KDE3 is there, and it works the same, sometimes it's there, but in a different place. Where it's missing, we open bug reports (example., showing image MetaData).... and they do actually get worked on and fixed :-) As long as you approach it this way, you will get used to it pretty quick, and start to see that the KDE guys are actually making KDE a lot better... and going back to KDE3 will feel like a big step back. It' snot 100% there yet, but it's getting really close. If you try to make KDE4 into KDE3, it won't work... you'll have problems at every turn... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind. However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws. It should be possible to adopt elements of the new concept one by one, while retaining and deprecating the old concept. This is especially true when the old concept is working just fine! Spring the new concept on us all at once, while pulling the old concept out from under our feet is not the Linux style -- is it? And there's no excuse for eliminating functionality! When developers start doing that, I suspect them of playing Big Brother -- e.g., deciding in our behalf that using the mouse is more "progressive" than using the keyboard, or deciding in our behalf that we really don't need the wonderful software we have been using on a daily basis for years, simply because the software is "not GUI enough"! If the new concepts are good, there is no need to force-feed them to us. Taking away our options is what the "communists" at Microsoft do! --- On Fri, 2/19/10, C <smaug42@gmail.com> wrote:
From: C <smaug42@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:50 AM On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:40, Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed.
Don't make the mistake a few others here have made. KDE4 is *NOT* KDE3.5 plus bug fixes. It is conceptually different than KDE3. Good or bad, that's what it is. it works differently, it uses newer/different desktop management tools and concepts. If you insist on making KDE4 look and behave click/keypress identical to KDE3.5, you're setting yourself up for major pain and trouble.
Learn the KDE4 "way" of doing things (it won't take much time... most of it (but not all just yet) is pretty intuitive)... sometimes the same functionality you are used to from KDE3 is there, and it works the same, sometimes it's there, but in a different place. Where it's missing, we open bug reports (example., showing image MetaData).... and they do actually get worked on and fixed :-)
As long as you approach it this way, you will get used to it pretty quick, and start to see that the KDE guys are actually making KDE a lot better... and going back to KDE3 will feel like a big step back. It' snot 100% there yet, but it's getting really close.
If you try to make KDE4 into KDE3, it won't work... you'll have problems at every turn...
C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind. However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws. It should be possible to adopt elements of the new concept one by one, while retaining and deprecating the old concept. This is especially true when the old concept is working just fine! Spring the new concept on us all at once, while pulling the old concept out from under our feet is not the Linux style -- is it?
Charles, I'm not very KDE knowledgeable, but the last thing I would complain about is that they are moving too fast!! After all 11.0 was the first KDE 4 preview release and its just a few months from end-of-life. Would you rather it took 10 years to transition from KDE3 to KDE4. 11.3 will likely be the first OS release that doesn't have KDE3.5 support. That's over 2 years of transition time. I think that is long enough. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:39, Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind. However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws.
It's been close to 2 years - an eternity in Linux development... a very rocky and rough two years, but still.. that has not been a case of springing KDE4 on us all in one step. Has it been gradual... depends on how you look at it. Stepping from 10.2 to 11.2... certainly not, but if you've kept up with the releases, it's been pretty sequential. I'll say again... KDE4 is *NOT* KDE3 with patches and bug fixes... it's is a whole new WM with a new concept in how a WM works. It's a rewrite to take advantage of QT4. It's a chance for the devs to take an unmanageable mess on the code side and rebuild it. This rebuild means that while some code and concepts are carried over, not all are. Some parts are totally rewritten... which means that they only provide the basics and the most essential bits to begin with and the feature we need/want are added back as time progresses,and we comment on and raise bug reports.
It should be possible to adopt elements of the new concept one by one, while retaining and deprecating the old concept.
Only if it's an evolution of a product. If it's a re-think of how it works, it certainly cannot. To use a path we are probably all familiar with, look at the WM changes when Microsoft stepped from Win3.1 to Win95. That was not an adoption of new concepts one by one.. that was a complete re-think. And now just to attempt to put off the twits on this list.. no, I am not saying Microsoft is the example we are following... it's just an example to illustrate the point... nothing more.
This is especially true when the old concept is working just fine!
Was it? Or is it familiar like an old shoe with holes in it? Once you start using KDE4, and you get your mind around the differences, you will see where the devs are taking it... and it seems to be in a nice direction. Yah there's splashy bits.. some people like them.. others don't. They can be toggled on or off really easily. Those same splashy bits were available in KDE3 (albeit not turned on by default), but the moaners on the list conveniently ignore that fact.
And there's no excuse for eliminating functionality!
As has been stated here over and over.. the functionality is not eliminated so much as it has not been put back in yet. They are working on it... and very fast too.
When developers start doing that, I suspect them of playing Big Brother
Then talk to them. I've done just that. I've gone to LinuxTag in Berlin for example.. stopped at the KDE booth and talked to the devs who were there. It's an interesting conversation.... they aren't playing Big Brother.. they are just a bunch of people who have an idea they are trying to build on - most of them are doing this in their spare time... evenings and weekends... not as a paid developer. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> [02-19-10 14:43]:
I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind. However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws.
Your posting style is adverse to the published list standards. Please adjust! A *gradual* transition is not possible as KDE4 is a completely new product, not using KDE3 code. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> [02-19-10 15:46]:
* Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> [02-19-10 14:43]:
I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind. However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws.
Your posting style is adverse to the published list standards. Please adjust!
sorry: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
A *gradual* transition is not possible as KDE4 is a completely new product, not using KDE3 code.
-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/02/19 11:39 (GMT-0800) Charles Obler composed:
And there's no excuse for eliminating functionality!
Technically, that's not what happens in a new distro, even though it often seems so. As time passes and development continues, new/"better" ways of doing things get implemented here and there, and as a byproduct of this, testing the new stuff on old hardware traverses a range from easy, to harder, to impossible, as that hardware ages and fewer and fewer developers have working bits they can test on. Eventually support for some old hardware and features necessarily falls away. It can't be helped, unless you have the hardware and knowledge to do it yourself. At some point, if you can't, you'll have to either give up using the old hardware, or give up "upgrades". With KDE3 there was no functionality removed. What happened was the KDE devs decided KDE3 was too complex and difficult to maintain, and so abandoned it _entirely_. Instead of starting a new project that was neither difficult nor too complex to maintain, they started a new project from scratch, the equivalent of 100% being removed by just discarding KDE3 and all its features _entirely_. Since the new project was done from scratch, with plans to change and/or exclude functionality from KDE3, it should have taken an _entirely_ new name. Instead, the new project was cloaked with the KDE name, ensuring that distros and users would be minimally likely not to adopt it when upgrade the distro time came along. Not only was it cloaked with the familiar name, its alpha and beta releases were cloaked with version numbers that disguised its character as alpha (4.0, 4.1) and beta (4.2, 4.3) software, which speeded its uptake, and KDE3's discard, by the distro packagers. It seems 4.4 has been designated substantially complete, meaning most of what was originally planned, and approximate equivalence to the abandoned or competing products, has been achieved. This is a description of the characteristics most would normally consider to constitute a 1.0 release. Since 11.2 doesn't include 4.4, it does constitute somewhat of a regression for at least some significant portion of KDE3 users. I deal with it by not upgrading from 11.0, which I know is not a good option for those using hardware it doesn't support. -- "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Fri, 19 Feb 2010, Felix Miata wrote:
Since the new project [= KDE4 (dnh)] was done from scratch, with plans to change and/or exclude functionality from KDE3, it should have taken an _entirely_ new name. Instead, the new project was cloaked with the KDE name, ensuring that distros and users would be minimally likely not to adopt it when upgrade the distro time came along. Not only was it cloaked with the familiar name, its alpha and beta releases were cloaked with version numbers that disguised its character as alpha (4.0, 4.1) and beta (4.2, 4.3) software, which speeded its uptake, and KDE3's discard, by the distro packagers.
Has it ever been different with KDE? I don't know about KDE2, but it was the same with KDE1 and KDE3 (as close as I followed). And the "really" useful minor version has been the last of that major version. I observe a pattern: 1.0.x a mess 1.1.0 still unuseable 1.1.1 useable (with not too great pains/shortcomings) 1.1.2 useful (i.e. people like(d) it, and last 1.x). 2.0.x a mess (I tried that even ... *shudder*) ... 3.0.x a mess ... 3.3.x ? (ISTR it might have been "useable" already) 3.4.x useable(?) 3.5.x useful (and last 3.x) 4.0.x a mess ... 4.3.x still messy (as far as I gathered here and on the german ML) 4.4.x useable(? here and next door ('-de') it sounds like it is ;) 4.5.x will probably be useful (and the last 4.x??) 5.0.0 I'm betting it'll be a big mess ;P And it'll be forked at the point KDE 4.x get's useful (and 4.x will go out of support or very soon after) Any takers? Care to fill in missing data? Corrections? Comments? BTW: yes, it's a rather "strict" definition of useable and useful. The latter implies "stable" too, i.e. no(!) random crashes of a "core"-app (like the WM/the plasma stuff, Dolphin, Konqueror, KMail, ...) e.g. because of a fritzed config when the user plays with the configuration (via the GUI(s), manually sabotaged config-files are excused ;). That still happen(s|ed) with at least 4.3.x AFAIR. And Gnome (and Gtk) seem to be more continually developed, even the switch from Gnome1/gtk1 to Gnome2/gtk2 went smoother (concerning features) than, say KDE1 -> KDE2. But, then again, you see requirements like 'gtk2 >= 2.10' or 'gtk2 >= 2.24' (or whatever) in the packages. Or worse[0]. So, you get to choose your poison when you choose a big desktop environment like KDE or Gnome. Apart from that fact that you may not like "the other" desktop (for whatever reasons like "just the feel"). Or dislike both (like me) and choose XFCE, LXDE or WindowMaker (like me) or sawfish or [insert about 50 other WM's names here] ... Or combine a simple WM with glitz, fluff and apps and tools (like a "panel") from another WM ... Use Dolphin as your default Gnome filemanager! k3b under WindowMaker, the Gnome-panel with sawfish ... The XFCE filemanager in KDE4 ... KMail or Evolution under aewm++ ... Whatever works _for you_! :) -dnh, not using KDE since 1.1.2 nor Gnome, I use KDE apps though. Still use the KDE1 kmix[1] on the old box, k3b (of KDE4.4 I think) on the new box with oS 11.2. And Gnome apps. Oh, and I have looked at KDE4. Just to know what I (don't) "miss". [0] I've more than once come across gtk/gnome apps not explicitly requiring 'gtk2 >= 2.16' (but, say, only 2.10) in configure while using functions that were introduced with version 2.16. Conversely, I've compiled packages cleanly and working against a glib/gtk2 supposedly "too old" (by changing the require in 'configure'). That's preferable and understandable though. "Better safe than sorry", the devs just didn't/couldn't easily test/lookup when each and every function was introduced and just required the oldest version known to work/or tested (or probably developed against). I do that too. [1] $ ps -eo cmd | grep '[k]mix' kmix -r 1 It claims to be 'KMix 1.01' in it's "About KMix"-dialog $ rpm -q --queryformat '%{installtime:date}\n' -f `which kmix` Sun 09 Jul 2000 08:48:59 AM CEST *cough* ;) -- / "Just say no to unnecessary complexity that just \ \ doesn't buy you anything." -- Linus Torvalds / -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dne So 20. února 2010 02:04:36 Felix Miata napsal(a):
With KDE3 there was no functionality removed. What happened was the KDE devs decided KDE3 was too complex and difficult to maintain, and so abandoned it _entirely_. Instead of starting a new project that was neither difficult nor too complex to maintain, they started a new project from scratch, the equivalent of 100% being removed by just discarding KDE3 and all its features _entirely_.
In some parallel universe maybe. In this universe the KDE3 codebase was ported to Qt4. Some components were obsolete, in too bad shape or otherwise found not worth the effort of porting and have been written from scratch instead. Some of the components were also redesigned in the process and the fact that the desktop shell was one of these and that it took for it much longer to stabilize than expected made this highly visible, but it certainly wasn't all of the components, not even close. For example the window manager in KDE4.0 was just an improvement of the KDE3.5 version with minimal regressions. Just because the KDE3->KDE4 transitions went worse than expected does not mean people need to make up far-fetched theories. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/02/20 12:42 (GMT+0100) Lubos Lunak composed:
Just because the KDE3->KDE4 transitions went worse than expected does not mean people need to make up far-fetched theories.
It wasn't me that made it up. In the two or so years since KDE 4.0 release I've seen it written many times, in *buntu, Fedora, Mandriva, here and other forums, that 4 was a complete ground up new creation. Yours is the first mention I've seen of conversion from existing QT3 code to QT4 rather than scratch write using QT4. It's now even harder to believe the conversion has gone so badly. I don't remember KDE 3.1 (the first I kept up 24/7) being anywhere near as difficult to use as KDE 4.1. -- "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dne So 20. února 2010 13:02:52 Felix Miata napsal(a):
On 2010/02/20 12:42 (GMT+0100) Lubos Lunak composed:
Just because the KDE3->KDE4 transitions went worse than expected does not mean people need to make up far-fetched theories.
It wasn't me that made it up.
Well, I actually managed not to address you specifically.
In the two or so years since KDE 4.0 release I've seen it written many times, in *buntu, Fedora, Mandriva, here and other forums, that 4 was a complete ground up new creation. Yours is the first mention I've seen of conversion from existing QT3 code to QT4 rather than scratch write using QT4.
Nobody crazy enough to start rewriting as huge codebase as KDE3 was from scratch would have managed to write that codebase first.
It's now even harder to believe the conversion has gone so badly. I don't remember KDE 3.1 (the first I kept up 24/7) being anywhere near as difficult to use as KDE 4.1.
That is because KDE3.0 would have been basically KDE2.3 if it wasn't for the porting to Qt3. There were no major architectural changes like with KDE4 or KDE2 (which started to be accepted by the majority of people only after 2.2.0 if I remember correctly). Introducing KDE4 should be compared to e.g. introducing Linux 2.6 or GNOME2, which also faced quite some problems as far as I remember. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 8:04 PM On 2010/02/19 11:39 (GMT-0800) Charles Obler composed:
And there's no excuse for eliminating functionality!
Technically, that's not what happens in a new distro, even though it often seems so. As time passes and development continues, new/"better" ways of doing things get implemented here and there, and as a byproduct of this, testing the new stuff on old hardware traverses a range from easy, to harder, to impossible, as that hardware ages and fewer and fewer developers have working bits they can test on. Eventually support for some old hardware and features necessarily falls away. It can't be helped, unless you have the hardware and knowledge to do it yourself. At some point, if you can't, you'll have to either give up using the old hardware, or give up "upgrades".
With KDE3 there was no functionality removed. What happened was the KDE devs decided KDE3 was too complex and difficult to maintain, and so abandoned it _entirely_. Instead of starting a new project that was neither difficult nor too complex to maintain, they started a new project from scratch, the equivalent of 100% being removed by just discarding KDE3 and all its features _entirely_.
Since the new project was done from scratch, with plans to change and/or exclude functionality from KDE3, it should have taken an _entirely_ new name. Instead, the new project was cloaked with the KDE name, ensuring that distros and users would be minimally likely not to adopt it when upgrade the distro time came along. Not only was it cloaked with the familiar name, its alpha and beta releases were cloaked with version numbers that disguised its character as alpha (4.0, 4.1) and beta (4.2, 4.3) software, which speeded its uptake, and KDE3's discard, by the distro packagers.
It seems 4.4 has been designated substantially complete, meaning most of what was originally planned, and approximate equivalence to the abandoned or competing products, has been achieved. This is a description of the characteristics most would normally consider to constitute a 1.0 release.
Since 11.2 doesn't include 4.4, it does constitute somewhat of a regression for at least some significant portion of KDE3 users. I deal with it by not upgrading from 11.0, which I know is not a good option for those using hardware it doesn't support. -- "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams, 2nd US President
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Thank you, Felix, for the KDE 4 history. Now that I know more about the history, I'm reconciled to KDE 4. In fact, I say some nice things about it, in my next post. Would it have been better for the KDE team to put the new product under a whole new name? Then we could have had three highly developed DE's to choose from, along with Xfce, EDE and Étoilé -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_X_Window_System_desktop_environme... If these other DE's can survive a while longer, why not KDE 3.5? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 20 February 2010 02:04:36 Felix Miata wrote:
With KDE3 there was no functionality removed. What happened was the KDE devs decided KDE3 was too complex and difficult to maintain, and so abandoned it _entirely_. Instead of starting a new project that was neither difficult nor too complex to maintain, they started a new project from scratch, the equivalent of 100% being removed by just discarding KDE3 and all its features _entirely_.
(Disclaimer: I've been a KDE developer since the 2.x days and was deeply involved in the KDE 4 process). Felix, you are confusing the KDE desktop shell with what is now known as the KDE Software Compilation - the complete suite of software built with KDE. It is true that parts of the desktop shell - in KDE 3, the panels and desktop background provided by kicker and kdesktop - was completely replaced by the Plasma Desktop. The applications, the window manager, and the libraries that make up the platform were ported from KDE 3, rationalised in some places and extended in others. Don't take everything you read in forums and lists as gospel... Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
(Disclaimer: I've been a KDE developer since the 2.x days and was deeply involved in the KDE 4 process).
Just out of curiousity Will, how much thought was given to how these changes would affect the current KDE3.x installed base? I've been at a loss to understand some of the new ideas beind KDE4 and how they are supposed to make things better. (probably because in my case they make things work - as an old Workplace Shell user I always liked KDE's clean and trim interface) I fully understand that you guys wanted to remove some of the clutter from the system, but is it really a majority of devs and users who want the new features like effects and all that other stuff? It just seems like there's been a push to replace missing KDE3 stuff that's probably slowed down the new stuff. Not trying to start a flame, just trying to understand why the drastic changes were decided upon. Thanx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 25 of February 2010, Larry Stotler wrote:
Just out of curiousity Will, how much thought was given to how these changes would affect the current KDE3.x installed base? I've been at a loss to understand some of the new ideas beind KDE4 and how they are supposed to make things better. (probably because in my case they make things work - as an old Workplace Shell user I always liked KDE's clean and trim interface)
I fully understand that you guys wanted to remove some of the clutter from the system, but is it really a majority of devs and users who want the new features like effects and all that other stuff?
That, ultimately, doesn't matter. It is the majority of devs who do the work. Wishing for something makes things happen only if you are lucky and it's not possible for everybody to be lucky all the time.
It just seems like there's been a push to replace missing KDE3 stuff that's probably slowed down the new stuff.
Not trying to start a flame, just trying to understand why the drastic changes were decided upon. Thanx
Because there was nobody to work on the old code that was rotten. In fact, it was the people maintaining that code at the end of the KDE3 cycle who decided to do the changes. So if you want the old KDE3, just use it, but take it as it is - with nobody caring about it enough to do any serious work. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 25 February 2010 05:20:28 am Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 20 February 2010 02:04:36 Felix Miata wrote:
With KDE3 there was no functionality removed. What happened was the KDE devs decided KDE3 was too complex and difficult to maintain, and so abandoned it _entirely_. Instead of starting a new project that was neither difficult nor too complex to maintain, they started a new project from scratch, the equivalent of 100% being removed by just discarding KDE3 and all its features _entirely_.
(Disclaimer: I've been a KDE developer since the 2.x days and was deeply involved in the KDE 4 process).
Felix, you are confusing the KDE desktop shell with what is now known as the KDE Software Compilation - the complete suite of software built with KDE.
It is true that parts of the desktop shell - in KDE 3, the panels and desktop background provided by kicker and kdesktop - was completely replaced by the Plasma Desktop.
The applications, the window manager, and the libraries that make up the platform were ported from KDE 3, rationalised in some places and extended in others.
Don't take everything you read in forums and lists as gospel...
Will
That is pretty much at odds with what we have been told all along. We have always been told it was a complete DO-OVER. Something that shared the name only. Any time users begged for something like Kong file manager after seeing early Dolphin all we got was Dolphin in Kong clothing. The real Kong was body snatched, and just sort of disappeared. We were given this Night of the Living dead Zombie Dolphin walking around instead. We begged for multiple desktops that worked as before, but ended up with activities that even wood stakes thru the heart couldn't kill. After sufficient bitching was brought to bare, most things have by now a pretty functional KDE environment again. But: Its been almost 3 years. No advances in KDE have been made while this rebuild was in progress. (discounting look and feel). It may be easier to maintain going forward. But three years of progress have been lost. Previously we were told it could never go back to the way it was because the old way was a mess and couldn't be salvaged. Now you tell us that the same code base was there all along, and still is?! -- __________________________________________________________ Somebody stoled my tag line, so now I have this rental... JSA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 07:33 -0800, jsa wrote:
On Thursday 25 February 2010 05:20:28 am Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 20 February 2010 02:04:36 Felix Miata wrote: (Disclaimer: I've been a KDE developer since the 2.x days and was deeply involved in the KDE 4 process). Felix, you are confusing the KDE desktop shell with what is now known as the KDE Software Compilation - the complete suite of software built with KDE. It is true that parts of the desktop shell - in KDE 3, the panels and desktop background provided by kicker and kdesktop - was completely replaced by the Plasma Desktop. The applications, the window manager, and the libraries that make up the platform were ported from KDE 3, rationalised in some places and extended in others. Don't take everything you read in forums and lists as gospel... That is pretty much at odds with what we have been told all along.
Okay. I don't know who "we" are - but perhaps this should simply be taken as an indication that "you" are tuned in to the wrong people/sources. Beware ridiculous grossly-simplified BLOG entries & articles. I recommend <http://www.lwn.net>
But: Its been almost 3 years. No advances in KDE have been made while this rebuild was in progress. (discounting look and feel). It may be easier to maintain going forward. But three years of progress have been lost.
But with an unmaintainable code base you'd have zero progress anyway.
Previously we were told it could never go back to the way it was because the old way was a mess and couldn't be salvaged. Now you tell us that the same code base was there all along, and still is?!
Dude! There is considerable distance between "same" and "complete do over". Your interpretation of events is extremely polar. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 3/3/2010 1:02 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 07:33 -0800, jsa wrote:
On Thursday 25 February 2010 05:20:28 am Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 20 February 2010 02:04:36 Felix Miata wrote: (Disclaimer: I've been a KDE developer since the 2.x days and was deeply involved in the KDE 4 process). Felix, you are confusing the KDE desktop shell with what is now known as the KDE Software Compilation - the complete suite of software built with KDE. It is true that parts of the desktop shell - in KDE 3, the panels and desktop background provided by kicker and kdesktop - was completely replaced by the Plasma Desktop. The applications, the window manager, and the libraries that make up the platform were ported from KDE 3, rationalised in some places and extended in others. Don't take everything you read in forums and lists as gospel... That is pretty much at odds with what we have been told all along.
Okay. I don't know who "we" are - but perhaps this should simply be taken as an indication that "you" are tuned in to the wrong people/sources.
Beware ridiculous grossly-simplified BLOG entries & articles.
I recommend <http://www.lwn.net>
Well I was going with stuff on this list and kde.org. I see no particular reason to lend any more credence to your link than any of the other sources.
But: Its been almost 3 years. No advances in KDE have been made while this rebuild was in progress. (discounting look and feel). It may be easier to maintain going forward. But three years of progress have been lost.
But with an unmaintainable code base you'd have zero progress anyway.
To the extent it was unmaintainable, true. However it was maintainable and being maintained right up to the point someone decided it wasn't. New updates were coming out all along. New applications were also being added to run under KDE every month. Then it all stopped. But lets not obsess with water under the bridge. (Actually we have all passed a lot of water since then)... Lets not miss the key point here... The main point is Will is telling us now that, No, not only was KDE3 NOT unmaintainable, but rather that the vast majority of the code base is intact and still in operation. Clearly we all see the visual aspects of the UI has changed. But not more significantly than those changes possible with themes. But many applications simply disappeared, others to huge efforts by Dotan filing mountains of bug reports to get them up and running and Will leaning on the developers. Why did this happen if the major portion of the code base was intact? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 03 March 2010 23:02:54 John Andersen wrote:
But many applications simply disappeared, others to huge efforts by Dotan filing mountains of bug reports to get them up and running and Will leaning on the developers.
Why did this happen if the major portion of the code base was intact?
Mainly because all code had to be ported, even if only trivially, to cope with the source-incompatible changes between Qt 3 and Qt 4. Where that hasn't happened, the app remains KDE 3 only. But there are other factors influencing an applications' lifecycle. Where and how does this happen? OTOMH I can think of four concentric 'territories' that to the outsider probably all look like 'KDE': 1) KDE Platform - kdelibs and runtime components - all ported (or replaced, if you were a libkicker user) by core KDE people. A lot of reorganisation took place to separate the pure platform needed to make an app using KDE from the KDE workspaces, that run 'a KDE session'. 2) KDE Main Modules - these are the other kde* modules[1] found under [2] that comprise KDE SC as officially released by kde.org - all ported (the last was kdepim ported for KDE 4.1 in mid 2008) 3) KDE Extragear - Name coming from the cogwheel metaphor, these modules use KDE developement infrastructure, but do not follow the official KDE release schedule. Applications living here have a greater or lesser degree of autonomy, ranging from small apps that are useful, but non-essential (this is a poorly defined term), to massive subprojects like Amarok with their own code repositories, list infrastructure, culture and even fund-raising mechanisms. 4) Apps 'built with' KDE - Developed outside kde.org's systems, for example sourceforge or gitorious, and just make use of the KDE platform because it solves a lot of problems for them. This includes high profile yet independent apps like KMyMoney[3] or Krusader[4]. All of these areas are subject to the ebb and flow of developer interest and fashion, giving them more and less resources for a port or new development. Only the KDE Platform can expect to receive a guaranteed amount of developer attention. In reality the majority of the code in all the above areas is important enough to somebody or some company that it is maintained and further developed, so that statement is not as dramatic as it sounds. However, a small number of apps in main modules, like kweather in kdetoys, have been ported to KDE 4 in name but drift along in stasis. Other parts of the code (eg KDE PIM) are being so heavily worked on to the extent that (hopefully temporary) regressions in released code are necessary while the foundations for new development are poured. Others really have been abandoned, for example kwifimanager's author contacted me to say he was ceasing development and assigning remaining feature requests to me because he felt that NetworkManager, for which I develop the KDE client, made his app obsolete. These cases are painful for these apps' users At this point you will ask, "We use and depend on this software, so why don't the developers make feature stability the highest priority and develop their extensions in a branch until they are ready?". My answer to this is that is that resources are always limited, and development takes place for a reason. For proprietary software, it's probably to sell a newer version. In Free Software, this can also be true (see all SLE* features) but for community- developed software it's often because the developer has an idea of a better application and develops for the satisfaction in realising this. This 'itch- scratchability' is effectively the wages that pays for the majority of the code in your openSUSE repositories, and if you take that away, progress stops. It's up to distributions and others at the contributor<->user interface to smooth out the bumps, which we do to the best of our abilities. This process of evolution and revolution is happening all over the place and on different scales, from the switch from Qt 3 to Qt 4, to the KDE 3 to 4 era, to the replacement of the KDE 3 desktop with Plasma, to the dismantling and rebuilding of KAddressBook around Akonadi. Keep in mind that these processes are common to all software, and happen even though the majority of the code and all the investment it represents is still present. I would argue that mass extinctions of applications have not taken place. Will (who has gone on for far too long again) [1] The term 'module' is a relic from the times when KDE used CVS to manage its source code. It is a unit of source code organisation [2] http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE/ [3] http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/index-home.html [4] http://www.krusader.org/ -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 09:49, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
application and develops for the satisfaction in realising this. This 'itch- scratchability' is effectively the wages that pays for the majority of the code in your openSUSE repositories, and if you take that away, progress stops.
This is a very important bit that those who wail and moan about "losing" KDE3 seem to forget. We (the users of KDE3 and now KDE4) are not paying the salaries of those developing this DE. We are benefiting - for free - from the various developer's efforts.... from their proverbial itch scratching... development that is often done on their own free time. Stamping our feet and demanding that a developer or set of developers continue working on a project that they no longer are interested in is a waste of effort unless we are that person's manager, and they are employed by us... as far as I know that's not the case here :-) Instead of fighting the evolution of our favorite DE (whichever that may be) it's a lot better to help out where we can. If you're not a software developer, then write some documentation (a lot of people complaining here on the list grouse about not being able to read about how to use "new feature X" in the documentation but do zero about it). Anyway, nice detailed explanation Wil. Thanks. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 19/02/10 22:40, Charles Obler wrote:
Thank you for replying, Vincenzo --
I hope you are right. I ask to be proven wrong.
I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed. I did finally figure out how to put the taskbar panel on the right edge of the screen. It's not a control panel option: Instead, I have to click on the taskbar directly.
If I am missing something, please tell me. I've been a big fan of Linux for the last ten years. This is the first time that a new version has left me seriously disappointed.
--- On Fri, 2/19/10, barravince@gmail.com <barravince@gmail.com> wrote:
From: barravince@gmail.com <barravince@gmail.com> Subject: R: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: "Charles Obler" <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:22 AM Hi, All the functionality that you have "missed" are simply configurable trough the kde control panel. And you can't say That opensuse is worst than previouses versions, zypper is faster than ever, the boot time I think is one of fasters by the others distributions, you are saying only empty words. Remember that there is a community that can help you in a lot of ways, just moderate the terms.
Vincenzo Vincenzo Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
Oh dear, oh dear :-( . This is something about which I posted, in this forum, a message as a response to Rajko only a few days ago. Replying to a PRIVATE message and quoting it in a PUBLIC forum is NOT what is considered to be "netiquette". It is a *NO-NO*. *Period*. Not negotiable. And so what is it that our 'resident mail police' are going to do about it? One can only speculate.... BC -----Original Message-----
From: Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:11:31 To: <opensuse@opensuse.org> Subject: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality. It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users. Tell me I'm wrong!
Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4. Something has gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE. Here are some of the things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in 11.2:
Shortcut keys: * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2. * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops. Function not available in 11.2.
Desktop: * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color. In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome. * in 10.2, my screensavers work. In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.
USB Memory: * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory. In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin. Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.
KDE Version: * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version. In fact, it doesn't even display KDE! Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!
Internet: * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!
In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7. I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this. Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?
I still have an open mind. I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality. Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH! It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux! For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.
Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line option. After all, only "geeks" use it! This regression really makes me sick. What are they thinking, over at KDE?!
-- A hole has been found in the nudist camp wall. Police are looking into it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I have made the mistake in the past of replying to the person when I meant to reply to the group. My initial post os addressed to the entire group. Subsequent discussion of that problem should be public, so that others can benefit from the suggestions offered. This is not a place for private conversations. Private conversations have a potential for abuse. I have no interest in private discussion. ALL of my replies that go beyond mere friendly acknowledgement are and will be public. --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:
From: Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 7:26 AM Oh dear, oh dear :-( .
This is something about which I posted, in this forum, a message as a response to Rajko only a few days ago.
Replying to a PRIVATE message and quoting it in a PUBLIC forum is NOT what is considered to be "netiquette". It is a *NO-NO*. *Period*. Not negotiable.
And so what is it that our 'resident mail police' are going to do about it? One can only speculate....
BC
From: Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:11:31 To: <opensuse@opensuse.org> Subject: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality. It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users. Tell me I'm wrong!
Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4. Something has gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE. Here are some of the things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in 11.2:
Shortcut keys: * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2. * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops. Function not available in 11.2.
Desktop: * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color. In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome. * in 10.2, my screensavers work. In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.
USB Memory: * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory. In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin. Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.
KDE Version: * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version. In fact, it doesn't even display KDE! Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!
Internet: * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!
In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7. I found this hard to believe -- but now
"upgraded", I can see why some people might do
Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?
I still have an open mind. I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality. Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH! It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux! For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.
Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line option. After all, only "geeks" use it! This regression really makes me sick. What are
-----Original Message----- that I've this. they
thinking, over at KDE?!
-- A hole has been found in the nudist camp wall. Police are looking into it.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Charles Obler wrote:
I have made the mistake in the past of replying to the person when I meant to reply to the group.
Yes, that can happen. Assuming that everyone sending a private answer to you made the same mistake is not valid, though.
My initial post os addressed to the entire group. Subsequent discussion of that problem should be public, so that others can benefit from the suggestions offered.
Then add a disclaimer to (all of) your post(s) that you do not want private answers and will ignore them.
This is not a place for private conversations. Private conversations have a potential for abuse. I have no interest in private discussion. ALL of my replies that go beyond mere friendly acknowledgement are and will be public.
See above. Then ignore them. Or, if you want to make comments on the answer to the public, remove all references to the original author. Or send the answer to him and request him to forward it to the list. Citing (fully quoted) private email in a public forum is a no-go.... Pit -- Dr. Peter "Pit" Suetterlin http://www.astro.su.se/~pit Institute for Solar Physics Tel.: +34 922 405 590 (Spain) P.Suetterlin@royac.iac.es +46 8 5537 8507 (Sweden) Peter.Suetterlin@astro.su.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Viernes, 19 de Febrero de 2010 13:26:54 Basil Chupin escribió:
On 19/02/10 22:40, Charles Obler wrote:
Thank you for replying, Vincenzo --
I hope you are right. I ask to be proven wrong.
I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed. I did finally figure out how to put the taskbar panel on the right edge of the screen. It's not a control panel option: Instead, I have to click on the taskbar directly.
If I am missing something, please tell me. I've been a big fan of Linux for the last ten years. This is the first time that a new version has left me seriously disappointed.
--- On Fri, 2/19/10, barravince@gmail.com <barravince@gmail.com> wrote:
From: barravince@gmail.com <barravince@gmail.com> Subject: R: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: "Charles Obler" <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:22 AM Hi, All the functionality that you have "missed" are simply configurable trough the kde control panel. And you can't say That opensuse is worst than previouses versions, zypper is faster than ever, the boot time I think is one of fasters by the others distributions, you are saying only empty words. Remember that there is a community that can help you in a lot of ways, just moderate the terms.
Vincenzo Vincenzo Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
Oh dear, oh dear :-( .
This is something about which I posted, in this forum, a message as a response to Rajko only a few days ago.
Replying to a PRIVATE message and quoting it in a PUBLIC forum is NOT what is considered to be "netiquette". It is a *NO-NO*. *Period*. Not negotiable.
Yeah!! People should learn netiquette priot to bump to KDE 4.x :-) Your email usage statistics will rise up to the sky so is worth it (YMMV). OTOH this KDE 3.x vs KDE 4.x has special rules, you should try to cover those little things like shortcuts and so on reading the lists archives where you keep only the general rant about KDE direction in the messages.. Welcome to the Shocked KDE 4.x users group!!
And so what is it that our 'resident mail police' are going to do about it? One can only speculate....
BC
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Obler <joyinstruggle@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:11:31 To: <opensuse@opensuse.org> Subject: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality. It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users. Tell me I'm wrong!
Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4. Something has gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE. Here are some of the things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in 11.2:
Shortcut keys: * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2. * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops. Function not available in 11.2.
Desktop: * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons. Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color. In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome. * in 10.2, my screensavers work. In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.
USB Memory: * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory. In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin. Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.
KDE Version: * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version. In fact, it doesn't even display KDE! Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!
Internet: * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!
In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7. I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this. Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?
I still have an open mind. I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality. Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH! It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux! For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.
Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line option. After all, only "geeks" use it! This regression really makes me sick. What are they thinking, over at KDE?!
Most people know C is not so high level.... ...Everybody else just got assembler overdose -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (15)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Angel -
Basil Chupin -
C -
Charles Obler -
David Haller -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
John Andersen -
jsa
-
Larry Stotler -
Lubos Lunak -
Patrick Shanahan -
Pit Suetterlin -
Will Stephenson