Re: [opensuse] RE: Stability of systemd
Bruce Ferrell said the following on 06/16/2013 10:52 AM:
[...] I said Linux since '93. I've worked with *IX since about '80. Back
On 06/16/2013 07:23 AM, Anton Aylward wrote: then mostly DecUnix and SunOS and I dID see the switch over from the BSD model to sysV. It did take some getting used to but sysV was based on transparency... And the shift was CLEARLY and FULLY documented... No, "well, ya gotta know" garbage.
Are you trying to imply that there's a lack of documentation on systemd? That is not the case. The "well, ya gotta know" is really just another way of saying RTFM. And yes, it information dense. More so than most other man pages and design documentation. That makes it easy to miss stuff - I have. Much of what Cristian has pointed out - what I presume you mean by that "well, ya gotta know" reference is in there, we've just missed it, or the openSuse packagers/developers decided to configure it differently - blame them not systemd. Unlike many other things about Linux and UNIX Lennart has made sure that the designs were put forward and discussed and experimented with before being made public. I see that 'live' as I watch it going on even now in [systemd-devl]
snippage of kernel level stuff<
So why am I using Linux rather then BSD? Because of systemd!
While the concepts may be laudable, the implementation needs more careful thought... And THAT seems to be missing.
How come it works so easily for me? Because I'm willing to adapt and learn and find out they WHY when things don' go the way I expect. All to often the 'don't go the way I expect' say more about my expectations than any flaw in the code.
How come it doesn't work for me on a clean install?
Dunno, I wasn't peering over your shoulder when you did that install. I'm sure I could figure out how to do a 'clean install' of 12.3 and make it fail and blame systemd when the real problem is yast or the bios or something I've selected. I skipped 12.1 and as I say I've installed a variety of systemd based version of Linux on a variety of hardware. I've documented the issues I've had and, apart from some hardware issues and the usuall hassle with xorg.conf which this forum has helped with, .... it works. The xorg.conf hassle was hassle whichever package In tried!
The thing is, I suspect, that I'm wiling to accept that Lennart and Cristian are smarter than me, a lot smarter, and I'm willing to accept their way and learn from them rather than insist that my way is the right way. I've seen to many changes in *NIX over the years and its been a proving ground for many great ideas, which is one reason it has come to dominate despite the lack of Big Advertising behind it.
Lennert and Christain may be smarter than me... Not necessarily proven, and irrelevant BUT there seem to be a LOT of people who are having problems with Lennerts "inventions/concepts".
What I see they have in commin is that they think he's in the wrong, are 'anti". Those that accept and 'get on with it' either don't have problems or seem to be able, as I have done, overcome them. So there's a psychological factor here. I know its psychological because I'm anti-Windows and I can't get much of it to work whereas those who are pro-windows and anti-Linux never seem to have the problems with Windows that I do ... -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 6/16/2013 1:58 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Bruce Ferrell said the following on 06/16/2013 10:52 AM:
[...] I said Linux since '93. I've worked with *IX since about '80. Back
On 06/16/2013 07:23 AM, Anton Aylward wrote: then mostly DecUnix and SunOS and I dID see the switch over from the BSD model to sysV. It did take some getting used to but sysV was based on transparency... And the shift was CLEARLY and FULLY documented... No, "well, ya gotta know" garbage.
Are you trying to imply that there's a lack of documentation on systemd?
That is not the case.
The "well, ya gotta know" is really just another way of saying RTFM. And yes, it information dense. More so than most other man pages and design documentation. That makes it easy to miss stuff - I have. Much of what Cristian has pointed out - what I presume you mean by that "well, ya gotta know" reference is in there, we've just missed it, or the openSuse packagers/developers decided to configure it differently - blame them not systemd.
Unlike many other things about Linux and UNIX Lennart has made sure that the designs were put forward and discussed and experimented with before being made public. I see that 'live' as I watch it going on even now in [systemd-devl]
snippage of kernel level stuff<
So why am I using Linux rather then BSD? Because of systemd!
While the concepts may be laudable, the implementation needs more careful thought... And THAT seems to be missing.
How come it works so easily for me? Because I'm willing to adapt and learn and find out they WHY when things don' go the way I expect. All to often the 'don't go the way I expect' say more about my expectations than any flaw in the code.
How come it doesn't work for me on a clean install?
Dunno, I wasn't peering over your shoulder when you did that install.
I'm sure I could figure out how to do a 'clean install' of 12.3 and make it fail and blame systemd when the real problem is yast or the bios or something I've selected.
I skipped 12.1 and as I say I've installed a variety of systemd based version of Linux on a variety of hardware. I've documented the issues I've had and, apart from some hardware issues and the usuall hassle with xorg.conf which this forum has helped with, .... it works. The xorg.conf hassle was hassle whichever package In tried!
The thing is, I suspect, that I'm wiling to accept that Lennart and Cristian are smarter than me, a lot smarter, and I'm willing to accept their way and learn from them rather than insist that my way is the right way. I've seen to many changes in *NIX over the years and its been a proving ground for many great ideas, which is one reason it has come to dominate despite the lack of Big Advertising behind it.
Lennert and Christain may be smarter than me... Not necessarily proven, and irrelevant BUT there seem to be a LOT of people who are having problems with Lennerts "inventions/concepts".
What I see they have in commin is that they think he's in the wrong, are 'anti". Those that accept and 'get on with it' either don't have problems or seem to be able, as I have done, overcome them.
So there's a psychological factor here.
I know its psychological because I'm anti-Windows and I can't get much of it to work whereas those who are pro-windows and anti-Linux never seem to have the problems with Windows that I do ...
There is a nice lady I know who works in an office with a coffee pod machine on her floor. She goes to another floor to find water and a microwave to make tea. Other people on her floor ask her why she does that, they have tea pods that fit the pod machine, or you can also use the machine to dispense hot water for your own tea bag. That answer doesn't actually work because the machine still has coffee oils and residue and it makes the tea taste bad. Then they say "Well, why don't you just drink coffee?" That's you right now. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (2)
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Anton Aylward -
Brian K. White