Subject: Re: [SLE] End to SuSE LICENSING confusions!

On 4/14/05, Anders Norrbring wrote:

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The Software is a collective work of Novell. You may make and use [snip] Hence, as my english tells me, I cannot sell SuSE, but can distribute it to my heart's content!!!

Sure it means exactly that. But the last few days mailings has been regarding beta and release candidates.

That agreement forbids you to share the code even with your wife.

My be very true, but what's on the torrents dosn't looks even remotely like a beta or gama! Its plain simple SuSE 9.3 Prof. edition.

Sure it looks like a final. The latest release candidate in a testing series automatically turns into the "GOLD version", which is the one that goes to mastering the distribution disks. No matter what you file sharers say, the bottom line is that the torrent in question appeared on the net BEFORE the release of the SuSE Pro 9.3, that alone makes the distribution chain illegal since the sources has been disclosed by a person that is bound by the SuSE/Novell testing agreement which in rather harsh terms explains what's legal and not. Spreading the material is NOT legal. Personally I can't see the point in the discussion at all, what's the damn problem in waiting for the release? One day or one week more or less doesn't kill you or your system. Geeeez. Anders Norrbring

On Thursday 14 Apr 2005 13:29, Greg Whynott wrote:

Seems to me you are the only one getting excited over this, relax.

No, I think he has a valid point. Why not wait a week and then buy the box, so you know for sure you've got the final version? -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD!

On Thursday 14 April 2005 09:36, Greg Whynott wrote:

ps- no more posts from me on this tread. sorry for any 'flame' action on my part.

Thanks. Will you also promise not to top-post anymore?

On Thursday April 14 2005 7:25 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:

On Thursday 14 Apr 2005 13:29, Greg Whynott wrote:

No, I think he has a valid point. Why not wait a week and then buy the box, so you know for sure you've got the final version?

I agree. Anyway my order for 9.3 from SUSE shipped today. Some people just will not live by the rules, no matter how easy it is to do. Rich -- Rich Matson Reno, Nv. USA

Kevanf1 [Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:07:29 +0100]:

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Quoting signatures shows the use of a broken MUA.

Lost sales??? About a month after the official release Linux Magazine will probably have the full 9.3 on a cover DVD.

Dream on. For that they would have to get our permission which they won't. The current edition of Linux Magazine has the 9.2 DVD, guess when they will get the permission for the 9.3 DVD. Philipp -- Philipp Thomas SUSE LINUX Products GmbH

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:07:49 +0100 Terence McCarthy wrote:

I don't think I am alone in believing that "free as in freedom" means the same as "free as in free beer".

Arggghhh! Trying to cook and and at the same time reply to the list I've really got it wrong! I meant: "I don't think I am alone in believing that "free as in freedom" IS NOT the same as "free as in free beer". Sorry, (and the couple of pints of 5.2% Titanic's "Captain Smith" real ale didn't help!). Terence (embarrassed and suited up)

On Friday 15 April 2005 00:21, Kevanf1 wrote:

But on this subject, how come Linux Format had 9.2 on a cover disc on their Christmas edition of the magazine? It wasn't all that long after 9.2 had been officially released.

That wasn't the distribution, it was the Live CD. You could get that from ftp.suse.com even before then

On Thursday 14 April 2005 08:29, Greg Whynott wrote:

Seems to me you are the only one getting excited over this, relax.

greg

He may be the only person voicing an opinion on behalf of the SUSE developers; however, he is --probably-- NOT the only one who feels that way. We all need to have more respect for the developers and honor their licenses, contracts, etc. Sure, some people were given copies of the release candidate prior to the official release date. Although as Anders pointed out, those persons are usually beta-testers and/or writing reviews, and they're given the software under specific conditions, such as for magazine reviews. When you disrespect software developers they stop developing/releasing the software you so eagerly desire. BitTorrent anyone??? Just MHO Christopher Shanahan

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Personally I can't see the point in the discussion at all, what's the damn problem in waiting for the release? One day or one week more or less doesn't kill you or your system. Geeeez.

Anders Norrbring

i'm not here to rub this in anybody's face, God knows i've been sweatin' over this and even lost some sleep. in the end however, after a direct telephone converstation with a suse.de rep, i was told that he doesn't believe my torrent is illegal, just unfortunate since he's afraid it will cost suse sales. i can see two sides to that argument -- is it loss of sales because i'm giving it away to so many or an increase in sales because those that get familiar with suse are more likely to buy it later? we could probably debate that for the rest of our lives and never come to an agreement -- but the issue at hand is whether or not it's illegal and the opinion that matters, suse's, tells me it's not. there has been some discussion that it's the timing of my torrent that's in question -- i just double-checked forum postings and my web site file dates and my torrent went live the 10th of april, US Central, which was well AFTER people had started reporting having received their packages in other parts of the world. after very little digging at all, for example, i found this posting on the german list -- http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux/2005-Apr/0513.html . far as i know it's not illegal for someone like this to then freely share it with people in other countries. since my torrent went live after these reports there's absolutely nothing whatsoever to substantively suggest that mine are dubious in origin. i'm sorry some of you feel such disdain for me -- and that's your perogative. i'm an enthusiast, not a terrorist or punk hacker, who was and is excited about any release of my favorite linux. i just received email notifcation that my boxed set has shipped. i'm looking forward to comparing the torrent iso content with my own cds so i can verify them and act, or not, as appropriate. no hard feelings, i hope we can put this to rest now, thanks.

Allen wrote:

On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 10:13:35AM -0500, mb1-knetdome wrote:

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i'm not here to rub this in anybody's face, God knows i've been sweatin' over this and even lost some sleep. in the end however, after a direct telephone converstation with a suse.de rep, i was told that he doesn't believe my torrent is illegal, just unfortunate since he's afraid it will cost suse sales. i can see two sides to that argument -- is it loss of sales because i'm giving it away to so many or an increase in sales because those that get familiar with suse are more likely to buy it later? we could probably debate that for the rest of our lives and never come to an agreement -- but the issue at hand is whether or not it's illegal and the opinion that matters, suse's, tells me it's not.

How about you do what I do? Just buy like 5 copies of SUSE, and give THOSE away. You don't make them lose sales this way, and if I can afford it being a broke ass college student who works a total of two days a week max making almost no money, then anyone flipping burgers should be able to handle it. I have payments to make on billsand I have money going out on other things but I make time to buy SUSE. I have 7 copies here of SUSE, all legal.

<STUFF DELETED> I suppose you meant purchased rather than legal. I think many would see a bulk purchase like that as costly for them, however, it's a drop in the ocean and Linux companies don't make much in selling their distros, they make it in follow-up services where just about all computer companies make their money these days, except for the one headed by a CEO who has Kermit the frog's voice and they use extortion to $ell their permanently broken $tuff. Don't forget that recently SuSE had been contemplating going community just like RedHat with Fedora, perhaps for the same reason. I support SuSE, Mandriva (Mandrake as was) and Codeweavers by purchasing their products, hoping that it may just encourage them financially to keep producing. The distros also know that the widest availability of their products will pay dividends as people can get them for free, get to like them, spread the word and introduce them at their places of work, the return is business revenues that far outstrip private purchases. In some shops with IBM mainframes, guys who knew nothing about Linux have downloaded and installed SuSE on Zseries as their first taste of Linux, recalling one guy who came up to me with a kernel patch and asked what to do with it as he needed the functionality and there I sat at an NT box patching and building a kernel on a Zseries running SuSE with KDE, just like sitting at my PC. We had the RAF placing an order for a hardware upgrade because they needed some more oomph to expand the Linux work their were doing on the mainframe, puzzled, our salesperson asked by email what the RAF was doing with Linux and on a mainframe at that, I puffed up my chest, smiled and emailed her and all the other recipients the details and the SuSE URL so they could visit and see for themselves just what the RAF were doing with Linux on our mainframe. I'd encourage anyone to get to a local Novell Linux conference, the food is good and you come away with a sense that these guys are not only very serious and knowledgeable, but they have a terrific business sense, product portfolio and a strategy to match, it's a day you'll enjoy and remember, even the fact that their software tools on CD won't install (on 9.1 Pro at least) won't dampen the overall impact. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Keen licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM Mainframes and Sun Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux for all Computing Tasks

On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 08:53:37PM +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Thursday 14 April 2005 13:43, Mayank Jain wrote:

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1) You receive no consideration

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Hence, as my english tells me, I cannot sell SuSE, but can distribute it to my heart's content!!!

My English isn't really sure what to tell me

Consideration \Con*sid`er*a"tion\ [snip] 7. (Law) The cause which moves a contracting party to enter into an agreement; the material cause of a contract; the price of a stripulation; compensation; equivalent. --Bouvier.

Legalese is such a strange language. It seems to mean that if you had a reason to do it, you can't do it.

Well, sort of. "Consideration" is a specific legal term, and it basically means "payment". It's called "consideration" rather than "payment" because it covers normal monetary payment, plus payment in kind, etc. Basically, if you receive something (money/services/preferential terms on other contracts/etc.) in return for supplying SuSE, then you are deemed to be receiving a "consideration". HTH. (Oh, and IANAL so ICBW and YMMV. None of this should be taken as legal advice... :-) -- David Smith Work Email: Dave.Smith@st.com STMicroelectronics Home Email: David.Smith@ds-electronics.co.uk Bristol, England GPG Key: 0xF13192F2

On Thursday 14 April 2005 14:50, Anders Johansson wrote:

I don't think a wife who demands that her husband show her some consideration wants him to show her the money :)

You've never been married, I take it. -- Homepage http://scottj.org XFce desktop environment http://www.xfce.org Goodies for the XFce desktop http://xfce-goodies.berlios.de GPG public key ID: 811B00AB