On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

If you go to "panel settings", you can click'n'drag the icons to place them where you want them

Are they going to "fix" this so that you can just move them around like in KDE3? Seems like an unncessary step IMO. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Are they going to "fix" this so that you can just move them around like in KDE3? Seems like an unncessary step IMO.

I hope not

I haven't used kde3 in quite some time now, but as I recall, you have to find the small little tiny arrow next to the icon, click it, select "move" from the popup menu, and then you can move it around.

Actually, you can just click/hold and move them. If you drag the vertical seperator over to give you room, you can move them around as you see fit. Nice and easy.

I prefer the kde4 method. Once in "panel settings", you can move all the icons around without additional steps, and there are no problems in finding miniscule arrows (very hard for people who are unaccustomed to precise mouse manoeuvres)

Right-click->panel settings && move the icon && click somewhere else => done

It's not that much extra work, if any at all. And if you want to move more than one icon around, it's less work.

Several extra steps, and more work overall. One more small thing that makes KDE4 less useful than KDE3. Oh well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 02:04:55 schrieb Larry Stotler:

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Several extra steps, and more work overall. One more small thing that makes KDE4 less useful than KDE3. Oh well.

So how often do you re-arrange your icons on the panel?

Did you file a request for "middle-click" to move icons? Not every device/mouse might have a middle-click so it cannot be the only way and left- click is already taken and too easy to be used if one just wanted to click something, i.e. not robust enough.

Are there no things in KDE4 that are useful and not in KDE3?

Yes, there are "no things in KDE4 that are useful" compared to KDE3. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 10:09:52 schrieb Basil Chupin:

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...

Are there no things in KDE4 that are useful and not in KDE3?

Yes, there are "no things in KDE4 that are useful" compared to KDE3.

Thanks a lot! That kind of absolute statement is all that is needed to show that you can only be wrong.

Why am I wrong? You asked a question and I answered it.

You did not even add the "for me".

Why should I do that? Your question did not have a criterion that I should also include the names of all the people who either thought that KDE4 had or had not "useful" "things" compared to KDE3.

Thanks again for making it that easy to point out the context of your arguments.

How so? What arguments? All I did was answer your question (above) and now you conclude that I am engaged in some - in your mind - "arguments". Ciao. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ne... wrote:

Folks, it would be nice if we could return to technical discussion and stop the personal attacks. This list is not a right but a privilege. It would be nice if we not give our hosts cause to rebuke us.

Thanks, ne...

Awww, come on, don't be a party pooper. (Occasionally one needs to let off some steam all in good fun. There is nothing ever said in these fora which are aimed at hurting a person -- unless the person is a total dickhead :-) .) Ciao. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

dick_turpin wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Awww, come on, don't be a party pooper. (Occasionally one needs to let off some steam all in good fun. There is nothing ever said in these fora which are aimed at hurting a person -- unless the person is a total dickhead :-) .)

dickhead? was you talking to me? ;-)

No 'cause you are Dick *Turpin* -- but have you been talking to a follower of Freud? :-) Ciao. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Well, I'm done with this particular thread. Since I have evidently earned a reputation of "defending" Fred (even though I had pointed out that he could've done a better job with the way he started this thread nor do I mind defending Fred actually) and that I am a KDE4 hater(even though I have gone out of my way to help point out where KDE4 is lacking compared to KDE3 and have encouraged discussion of what needs to be improved in KDE4). KDE4 promised so many things like using less resources(which I have shown is NOT the case when using openSUSE 11.0 because of the fact that KDE3 is forced to make use of KDE4's qt4 libraries which means that you are using both and that is using more resources) and the KDE4's out of the box experience has been centered on making it "pretty" and "glitzy" and is basically the KDE community's way of making their own Vista Aero and OS X Aqua clone. When I look at an upgrade, I want to see how it will benefit me and what I do. I've been repeatedly told that I need to upgrade my hardware and that the current version of openSUSE is designed for new mainstream hardware and not for older machines. Until such time as something like kdepersonalizer is offered at default startup so that I can turn off all the eyecandy and other things I don't want and don't use, and until it has most of the features of KDE3 that I actually use and so I don't have to spend a large amount of time configuring it so I can actually use it, I will stick with KDE3. I would like to see KDE4 deliver on it's promises, but so far it hasn't. I applaud the devs for their hard work for trying to improve KDE4. But KDE4 with 11.0 was not up to SuSE's standards, and I sincerely hope that it will be for 11.1. 11.0 was worth the upgrade if nothing else for the package manager. What will 11.1 offer other than newer versions of programs like openoffice or this or that other than an improved version of KDE4? Due to 11.0's stability, I will probably stay with it for a while. Honestly, I had a SuSE 9.2 system for a long time before I finally moved it to 10.2(which is where it still is). Sometimes upgrades as worthwhile and sometime they aren't. IMO, the even point releases have been the best so far. 10.0(brought back official ppc support), 10.2, 11.0. 10.1 had the broken package manager and broken old world mac support(which was kernel related) and 10.3's package system was probably the slowest I've ever seen out of SuSE(and I've been using it since v5.3 on a Pentium 100/32MB system). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 11:14:06 schrieb ne...:

...

Folks, it would be nice if we could return to technical discussion and stop the personal attacks. This list is not a right but a privilege. It would be nice if we not give our hosts cause to rebuke us.

I'd appreciate that very much! And I promise to ignore the trolls next time, yet please do tell those as well that this is a technical mailinglist for asking polite questions and not some list to tel the world how crap xy is because it lacks z, even more so if those claims are wrong. Sorry to those that are better than me at ignoring trolls!

Hold on. This is hypocritical. You started most of the personal attacks by posting this:

Sven Burmeister to opensuse Am Samstag, 8. November 2008 16:37:27 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

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There's no way to arrange icons on the taskbar where the user wants them! This is worse then just an annoyance! And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

Since then, this entire thread has degraded until it's not even worth reading. Nobody said Fred was in the right for the way he submitted his post. However, it is a valid concern. What's next, when a Windows user complains that something doesn't work the way XP or Vista does, we tell him to get lost? That's not what this community is about. It's here to air our issues and differences and to help other users. Yes, Fred was incorrect because there IS a way to do what he complained about, but the "new" way is nowhere near as easy and usefull as the "old" way. Some people obviously like the direction that KDE4 has taken. Some haven't. I'd call for a split, but we don't see to have a community of people willing to take over KDE3 and continue it. Since, I'm not a programmer, I can't do it. But if there were those who step up, then I probably would support them. KDE4 has not delivered IMO(which is an opinion by the way). It would have been nice if it had, but it hasn't, as of the last Beta4 LiveCD that I tried. It's closer. But, I don;t have time right now to list what is different and what needs to be done. It takes too long to turn off all the eye candy, which is why I added a request to return kpersonalizer to the startup of KDE so it's easier to turn off the eye-candy for those of us who don't care for it and/or don't have the hardware to make it worthwhile. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 17:01:46 schrieb peter nikolic:

There are so many things missing in KDE4.xxx it needs to be reduced in status to PRE alpha not good at all .

^This

and before people start crying i have been using Linux almost since day ONE so i DO know what i am talking about ..

disqualifies that^. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Larry Stotler [11-10-08 19:39]:

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 8. November 2008 16:37:27 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

...

There's no way to arrange icons on the taskbar where the user wants them! This is worse then just an annoyance!

And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

And another useless and unneccessary comment. Just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

I believe that the comment probably relates to carping here rather than announcing a bug/enhancement report, which is the only way to advise those doing the work that you would like something different. Apparently no amount of conversation is going to convice that making noise here will accomplish programming changes :^(. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 03:39:46 schrieb Larry Stotler:

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 9:35 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

I believe that the comment probably relates to carping here rather than announcing a bug/enhancement report, which is the only way to advise those doing the work that you would like something different.

And while I can agree with that, and that this should probably been worded a little on fred's part and probably should be in factory, suggesting a move to WinDoZe is acinine to say the least

In no way, it is the solution to his attitude. Context, please! And this kind of attitude in respect to a community that offers him software for free should be nowhere, not here, not on factory, not at another distro's list.

...

Apparently no amount of conversation is going to convice that making noise here will accomplish programming changes :^(.

True, but some of us have managed to make some progress in making KDE4 as useful as KDE3. As it stands now, I still have seen no reason to "upgrade" to KDE4. It really just doesn't offer any real benefit to me.

If people don't like KDE4, that's fine, but that's not what this is about. His attittude is unbearable and now he has to live with the consequences and reactions to it. As I wrote in another answer, instead of asking, he accuses, including capital letters, which is just a continuation of his previous "communication" on this list. With his attitude he discredited himself. Everyone asking politly gets a polite answer, those bluntly accusing, even more so if they are wrong about it, are told that their attitude lacks respect. Repeat offenders just show their ignorance and hence get that kind of hints. He is one of them. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 8. November 2008 16:37:27 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

...

There's no way to arrange icons on the taskbar where the user wants them! This is worse then just an annoyance! And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

And another useless and unneccessary comment. Just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

I ignore him.....some people aren't worth the time to respond to and he's one of them. I did find the answer to my question, albeit it's not obvious nor the way KDE has worked for so long. Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 05:14:54 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

...

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Sven Burmeister

wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 8. November 2008 16:37:27 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

...

There's no way to arrange icons on the taskbar where the user wants them! This is worse then just an annoyance!

And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

And another useless and unneccessary comment. Just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

I ignore him.....some people aren't worth the time to respond to and he's one of them. I did find the answer to my question, albeit it's not obvious nor the way KDE has worked for so long.

Which is exactly what I meant. Your ignorance to learn results in a behaviour aka whining against KDE that is unbearable.

Then stop being a martyr and do your self a favour by stopping reading this mail list.

Instead of asking how to move the icons, you claim/accuse that it is not possible, write in capital letters aka shouting and use an exclamation mark. Perfect example of why Iam right!

Oi! What is this with the exclamation mark - "I am right!" ? Are you also 'shouting'? Talking about a kettle calling the pot black.

And on top of that, it is just another post of that kind and not your first one.

Ce? -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 09:56:06 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

...

Which is exactly what I meant. Your ignorance to learn results in a behaviour aka whining against KDE that is unbearable.

Then stop being a martyr and do your self a favour by stopping reading this mail list.

Why should I stop reading the list because of some people that do not know how to behave and do not understand that how they act is what they get back?

What is good for the gander is good for the goose. Stop whingeing and complaining and just read what other people are writing. They have the same right to write crap as you have - and have the same right to complain about the crap you write.

Defending people with that attitude sheds a certain light on you,

Aaaah, so you are now another Freud (who, BTW, was a charlatan, only interested in making money from the rich patients he "treated") and have formed a "profile" on me, right?

but hey.

"But hey" what?

...

...

Instead of asking how to move the icons, you claim/accuse that it is not possible, write in capital letters aka shouting and use an exclamation mark. Perfect example of why Iam right!

Oi! What is this with the exclamation mark - "I am right!" ?

...

Are you also 'shouting'?

Talking about a kettle calling the pot black.

Please read/inform yourself before posting. Shouting is capital letters. The structure of the sentence should have told you that.

Sheesh! Read what you wrote in the first instance. If you cannot express yourself in English then PLEASE do us all a favour and do not post here. PLEASE.

...

...

And on top of that, it is just another post of that kind and not your first one.

Ce?

Reading helps.

Knowing English and grammar would also help in your case. I am not stating this with disrespect but with the hope that (certain) people will realise that the language barrier is very important in fora like this one, which IS specifically designed for English users, and if your English is not your native language, or you have a good grasp of English, then DON'T start shit-fights when you cannot properly express yourself in English - to do so only creates unnecessary problems. Ciao. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 01:38:42 schrieb Larry Stotler:

...

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Sven Burmeister

wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 8. November 2008 16:37:27 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

...

There's no way to arrange icons on the taskbar where the user wants them! This is worse then just an annoyance!

And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

And another useless and unneccessary comment. Just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

Please read before posting, otherwise your acusements sound silly.

Which is where all the problems start.............. There is no such word in English as "acusements". I think that you meant, "accusations". If so, then have a good look at the ?/English dictionary before posting a message/response here so that those who do know English understand what you are talking about. Otherwise what you write "sound silly". If you don't feel like checking out a ?/English dictionary then stay with a mail list which is not specifically designed for English-speaking people but one which caters for the language with which you are more comfortable. Ciao. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 09:49:25 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

...

Please read before posting, otherwise your acusements sound silly.

Which is where all the problems start..............

Punctuation?

What does "Punctuation" hae anything to do with anything? Please explain.

...

There is no such word in English as "acusements".

I think that you meant, "accusations".

If so, then have a good look at the ?/English dictionary before posting a message/response here so that those who do know English understand what you are talking about.

Right, you do not understand an English text because of some wrong words. Hm, that's unusual but fair enough, yet that means that there is hardly any English music you understand,

Ce? I ask again, Ce? What does this have anything to do with me understanding "English music"? *Music*, of all things. I understand English, French, Italian, Russian, German, American, Canadian, Australian, Indonesian, Chinese, and other nations' music.

hardly any mailinglists etc. because hardly any of those contain only perfect English.

Well, I can tell you outright, without any prejudice, that the Spanish and the German (and whatever other mailing lists are available - I haven't checked, sorry) certainly do not contain perfect English - if the users use English at all to begin with. So, what is your point?

This also shows the background and intention of your post. A bit too obvious if you wanted to get at me.

I don't want "to get at [you]". You're doing it yourself.

Otherwise what you write "sound silly".

Grammar?

What about it? I am simply quoting what you wrote. Aaaah, I should have written in the quote of what you wrote, "sound [sic] silly". Does this make it more acceptable?

...

If you don't feel like checking out a ?/English dictionary then stay with a mail list which is not specifically designed for English-speaking people but one which caters for the language with which you are more comfortable.

Anything better than that? Apart from showing that you like being nitpicker and failed the topic?

"Failed the topic". Which topic?

But nice to see that you "whining about KDE4 people" stick together.

What the heck are you talking about?!

(for those that don't know what I'm talking about, please read "[opensuse] Bye bye SuSE?")

<Sigh> You mean that you actually managed to read all of that thread -- and after all that managed to come to the wrong conclusion? Well done! Ciao. -- Understanding only begins with the act of perception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 11 November 2008, Sven Burmeister wrote:

But nice to see that you "whining about KDE4 people" stick together. (for those that don't know what I'm talking about, please read "[opensuse] Bye bye SuSE?")

Sven

why don't you just stop bieng a sour puss and get a life ye gads talk about taking it to the limits pete. -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 11. November 2008 16:15:36 schrieb Kai Ponte:

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And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

Wow, now there's a friendly statement, NOT!

What happened - wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

I know many who rearrange icons on the taskbar. I have my preferences for where I like them and put icon where needed.

Fed up with the same people not asking but accusing. Not you. Of course it's possible, it has been for a long time. So if one does not know why, one asks, that's all, yet too much to ask of those. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Monday 10 November 2008 04:21:49 pm Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 8. November 2008 16:37:27 schrieb Fred A. Miller:

...

There's no way to arrange icons on the taskbar where the user wants them! This is worse then just an annoyance! And another perfect example of your inconpetence. Please use Windows.

Wow, now there's a friendly statement, NOT!

What happened - wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

I know many who rearrange icons on the taskbar. I have my preferences for where I like them and put icon where needed.

The problem with kde 4.* is that it's not intuitive and somethings could be called "hidden," plus the setup isn't anything like kde 3.5. YES, there are some improvements, like once you give the root password for Yast, it's remembered for that session....something 3.5 never did but should have. Presently, 4.1.* is slower than 11.0 with 3.5 OR 4.0 by quite a bit and there are plenty of video problems to go with it. Even typing in Thunderbird will occasionally "stop and go," meaning the text you type is delayed on screen. This laptop is a dual-core and I'm using the 64-bit release of 11.1...it SHOULD be a lot snappier than it is, and certainly not have any video/audio problems since 11.0 ran so well on it. Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org