On 09/05/2015 12:56 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On September 5, 2015 9:23:12 AM PDT, Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> wrote:

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On 09/05/2015 03:18 PM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

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Here: Linux 3.16.7-21-desktop, openSUSE 13.2 (Harlequin) (x86_64) KDE 4.14.9 Intel i7, 16G memory

Maybe KDE is just built for blazing fast computers.

Nope. It works fast on my old clunks, so that can't be the case. ;-)

+10 -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I have noticed that at times when my computer has been running 24/7 for a few weeks things might slow down. Sometimes it's just one application, Firefox seems to choke if you've had LOTS of tabs open and close over a long period, or Bluefish will choke after opening and closing a few dozen pages. If it's just an application I close and reopen. However, if it's the whole system a reboot clears the baffles quite nicely. I think the issue is that bits and pieces of "stuff" get stuck and not properly deleted when you close. Over time these bits and pieces build up and cause issues. Closing the program causing the issue or a reboot does a better job of cleaning up. I recently tried to get into my computer from out of town with Teamviewer to get a file I needed. When I got home my system was a disaster. Nothing worked. Try to start a program and go to a movie. Maybe it would be open when you got back. The hard drive light was on steady. A reboot and all is well. If your system seems slow, check your hard drive light. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 09:40 AM, Xen wrote:

hanks for the link to Bluefish. It looks quite alright, I guess it is flaunted on the web as being awesome. It suffers from a bit of the same design flaws as Quassel, but it looks like a potent editor. Thank you!.

You are quick to condemn, but you don't give details on what those design flaws are. If being written for GTK/GTK+ is a 'design flaw' in your opinion, then come out and make that clear. Cut out the innuendo and cynicism. Lets have some facts. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 09:08 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

I have noticed that at times when my computer has been running 24/7 for a few weeks things might slow down. Sometimes it's just one application, Firefox seems to choke if you've had LOTS of tabs open and close over a long period, or Bluefish will choke after opening and closing a few dozen pages. If it's just an application I close and reopen. However, if it's the whole system a reboot clears the baffles quite nicely.

I think the issue is that bits and pieces of "stuff" get stuck and not properly deleted when you close. Over time these bits and pieces build up and cause issues. Closing the program causing the issue or a reboot does a better job of cleaning up.

I have a theory here. The old V7 UNIX had fixed size internal tables for the number of process, the number of open files, the number of i-nodes and stuff like that. If you ran out of entries then that was that. Modern Linux 9and other modern version of UNIX and its derivatives) make use of dynamically generated tables. So when you have Firefox with a gazzilion tabs and each tab being a web page with umpty references to the 'net for style sheets, scripts, and images, all that get to demand a lot of system resources. FF may limit the number active at once but the table entries stic around. The tools that look at the number of open files, for example, on a VM system with dynamic libraries may need thousands of open file table entries. So how are those handled? Do those tables ever get shrunk? I doubt it. I suspect that much of the kernel works by either pointer or index, and rearranging those tables dynamically would upset cross references between them. So while shutting down FF may free up resources, those expanded tables are still in use. FF's own internals might be 'clear' on a restart. The 'efficiency' of the kernel relies on things like pointers. I can't see that being changed. Attempts at 'object reference' and LISP like tagging as OS kernels have been tried and generally either are not efficient or not flexible enough to replace the way the Linux works. Unless you want to use a microkernel and OSX, perhaps. Yes, rebooting will cause all these tables to be 'reduced in size' and obsolete entries cleared. While this might account for the slowness of 'mature' systems that lots of static apps like Firefox, I don't see it being the soruce of Xen's slowdown. =============================== I'm not a Linux kernel hacker; I'm basing this on when I was a kernel hacked years ago for BSD VM on a VAX and System V dynamic memory and table management that I worked with, and what I've read more recently about the Linux kernel. It seems an adequate explanation of what Billie describes. I don't imagine it accounts for all perceived application level delays. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 03:43 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/06/2015 07:21 AM, Xen wrote:

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"Works fast" then, doesn't say much.

Counterpoint: your 'slow" doesn't say much.

So lets not get into a simple pizzing match. Let start by looking at configurations & settings.

I can perfectly define "slow" for you. In my case of alt-f2 it means: //taking time between opening the application, allowing user input, and consequently being able to process that user input such that user input is missed and disregarded, and not makes it to the application for proper processing//. So you see it is not subjective. You can test this and reproduce this (normally). And just saying: It is quite a possible feat to humanly introduce keypresses in the time between Alt-F2 and the thing allowing user input; and also between the thing allowing user input and being able to act on it. I have demonstrated this in many cases now to myself. While you may continue to claim it is a fault in my configuration, it is perfectly clear that from a real programming standpoint you can ensure that these keypresses are never lost. And this is simply not the case. That's all I'm saying. That is what "slow" means from a practical standpoint in this case. My configuration and settings, btw, are OpenSUSE's. And even if you were to find a configuration that by luck didn't introduce these faults, the faults are still there in the software. I could design them out, I could. But I can't. I won't. Not here not now. Well. Blame game, right? If I were not blaming people, I would be blaming myself for not doing the work that would have changed this before I ran into this. Something like that. Take responsibility for your life and the things you run into. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 04:37 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

If you're not willing to play with the settings and making it do what you want then Linux isn't for you.

I don't diddle with my installations of Linux. I install and use. Simple as that. AND, you know what. I don't have the issues I read about on the lists all day! My old granpappy used to tell me, "If'n it ain't broke, don't fix it." -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 04:21 AM, Xen wrote:

I believe in my case, if you are of the same opinion as mr. Anton Aylward, you might be accepting certain delays in certain types of interaction because you might not even be using those types of interaction.

"Works fast" then, doesn't say much.

Ok, fair enough. Alt-F2 ---> Window appears, sub quarter second. Type letters in window ---Window repaints with matching entries, Again sub quarter second. I literally can't count the seconds with the old standby one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two method, because as soon as "one" is out of my mouth the screen has repainted. PS: See my post about the Wrench... -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 11:45 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/06/2015 03:41 PM, John Andersen wrote:

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On 09/06/2015 04:21 AM, Xen wrote:

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I believe in my case, if you are of the same opinion as mr. Anton Aylward, you might be accepting certain delays in certain types of interaction because you might not even be using those types of interaction.

"Works fast" then, doesn't say much.

Ok, fair enough.

Alt-F2 ---> Window appears, sub quarter second.

LOL! probably sub "1/5th second" :-)

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Type letters in window ---Window repaints with matching entries, Again sub quarter second.

it takes me less than a quarter of a second to move from mouse to keyboard.

And what does that have to do with anything? "I takes me less than 1/5 of a second to make my heart beat. Whoa!".

You know what, John? When I looked at that I found I had already disabled al those 'network delay' items. Perhaps that's why mine was so fast. I suspect that I do such things 'by reflex' without being conscious of it.

You also didn't suggest any of that to me. Like the wench in NetworkManager applet, it is not really clear that the configuration is to be found there... You apparently have spent the time (or have had the time and experience) to LEARN these things but they are not readily apparent. When I first saw the wench in NM-applet I just thought it was a decoration, and I still do. You know why? Because they don't look like buttons until you hover over them. How is that for misleading a user?...

But of course Xen is not willing to do the test on other ways of starting Kwrite, CLI, menu etc, so we don't have anything to compare this with.

WTF do you want me to test? The actual startup time of Kwrite, starting from the thought being conceived in my mind, to the actual showing of that application? Or just the actual time for the application to boot up? You didn't even specify that? Is it only to suggest me different ways of doing something as soon as you have the data? You don't think I would be a better judge of that?. I already told you: going from GUI to CLI takes (took) long (now somewhat shorter now that I have changed 2 settings in the window switcher/desktop effects that caused it to 'bug'). Do you have any idea how long it takes to find out all those things? Why shouldn't there be a good default? You call this "learned dependency". Well, if we go all the way, why not let every person design all his software he uses himself? Configuration (settings) is not all that radically different from a hard-coded setting in a source file, which is not all that different from a hard-coded routine in a source file. The whole idea of programming is to make it easier for users. One programmer can serve a million people. If you then say those million people should all perform some identical work that the developer was not keen enough to do himself, but which a million people might obviously want and need to do themselves now that the one developer hasn't done it, that's not learned dependency, that is misunderstanding the concept of source development and the ratio of developers to users you normally have. I come across bad defaults all the time and some of them are indeed not changable through a common user interface, but require either hacking CSS files (for instance) or changing source code. Now I am not against changing source code but my time is limited and I cannot change all the source of all the applications I use. The whole idea of there being a concerted effort at developing these things is to ensure that our time as a human race is better spent, with not every single user having to redo everything that another has done before him. You can have one developer doing it right, it may cost him 2 hours. You can have a million users having to do it right, it may cost each of them 1 hour with a lesser result. Now instead of spending 2 hours in total, you have spent a million hours in total for more or about the same result. That is the ...let's call it the tragic of Linux. A commercial entity does not have the luxury of treating users like that, because users are real human beings and they might complain (like I am) or they might go elsewhere (like some do). Or a competitor might spring up who sees how badly the other, existing entity is doing his software. Or her software. And he sees a market gap and enters it, quite successfully obviously, if all goes right, because there was a real market demand for better software. In the linux world, users are seen as development crutches for filing bug reports. So that the developers again, have to do less. It's a lazyness this. Constantly telling someone else to do your work for you. And then you project it onto me (and others) by saying that I am lazy. Do you know how much freaking time it costs to change all these things? When most of the time the way to do it is not apparent at all. You have to "learn" the idiosynchratic ways of doing it. So the first few years of using Linux you spend on learning how to make it do what you want. After that you can finally use it to do real work. That's a pretty steep "learning curve". That's a pretty large investment.

He just wants to bitch, he doesn't actually want to do anything. He just wants to say that the design is wrong. But without suggesting HOW or WHY its wrong.

I have told you and now we found out. The default configuration of that Krunner is such that it introduces faults because the design of the software is such that if the search population takes too long, keypresses will be lost. That is a BUG. Not necessarily a configuration fault. On the other hand, if the configuration introduces the bug, maybe it shouldn't be the default configuration?. Again, it's just Windows style. Offer everything and then the user has to deselect what he doesn't want. Same thing. Same old thing. But you're not given a tour on how to deselect those things, or anything. You are presented with a non-intuitive GUI where the way to change things are usually not apparently or terribly limited.

He just wants to bitch.

I think that's what you are doing. You are bitching about me. You only suggested common alternatives that any sensible person (like myself) would already have tried. I have tried Gecko->search I have tried Gecko->applications->submenu->kwrite. I have tried Konsole->"kwrite" The only thing I haven't tried is that third party sidebar tool you mention. So, blame me for it?. You can't spend all that time on basically everything. I only have 24h in a day of which I need to sleep about 8. What would you have gained from estimates as to how long stuff would take? I would not be asking (bitching?) about Krunner if those other alternatives were faster. In that case I would be asking (bitching? :P) about those other alternatives. No my friend, the one most bitching is just you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oh, stop being such an idiot. The whole idea of Unix or Linux distributions is to make it easier for people. Some of you are trying to make it work for end-users And then the dinosaurs like you (I don't know if you're from any older era, but still) try to defeat those efforts by arguing that no matter how much has been done, /it should never be easy on an end user/. There is some notion that it should always be hard, for no reason whatsoever. Try to look into those reasons for a change. You'll see there are not any. It is just a weird cultural notion coming from some weird notion mired in Calvinism. "Life has to be hard". Yeah. On 09/07/2015 06:25 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

But all this, ranting, explanation, wants, ...., is *only* on you. That developer owes you *only* exactly what you paid him. You don't even know who he is or have taken the time to try to find out to discuss what you see as his "failings" in developing that he might change to your tastes.

Maybe it's a she, who knows. But likely not, a she would not be such a moron. Usually not, at least. And then there are topics of "How to get more women into openSUSE". For what you care, I represent a million silent users. So these millions of users only owe that developer what they paid him. That comes closer to the mark. Now we understand something. Now we see that there are some who are trying to make it work for those millions of users. We also see that the developer is not getting paid. We also, apparently, see that, because of this lack of proper compensation (from whatever channel that would derive, such as employment or entrepeneurship) that the developers are apparently trying to offload their work on their users, since that would be a form of return payment "I do this work, if you help me do it". We also see that the experience of being "employed" by some OSS project might lead to a form of bitterness because it involves a lot of sacrifice. What I see most in open source is bitterness. Bitterness at Microsoft, bitterness at a commercial world. Sacrifice always leads to bitterness and open source developers are expected to sacrifice. They are expected to work long hours for no compensation other than the status they get from having done the work. It is called "contribution". By paying this effort and time and energy you are supposed to get something back, which is?... Maybe a sense of belonging, but the payment you receive back is mostly very minimal. It is for ideology. It is for belief. It is towards some bigger goal. You can perfectly sacrifice yourself for a bigger goal. You see some of the "within-group" disputes that you also see in e.g. Christianity and Islam. There are several mostly incompatible licenses in the Open Source World. There is GPL, there is BSD, there is Apache, they are all different things and they don't harmonize very well, from what I've heard or seen. It is the same with e.g. Islam: there is Shi'ism (Shia Islam) and Sunnism (Sunni Islam) -- factions within a factioned world. With such an antagonistic mindset (e.g. with Open Source) it is not strange to see internal disputes within the larger faction. Boy, now I said something! I am too close to the fire here. So, from this bitterness, comes a notion that everyone who wants to join, has to put in the effort. They call it the do'ocracy. You can only be a member if you put in the same work everyone is putting in. That everyone applies to "developers" but in this case everyone who wants to use/work with Open Source also becomes one of them. There are really no users in open source. It is a developer community, not a user community. Now I have no issue with developing, after all I've been a programmer since young age. But it kinda disrupts and even destroys the balance between users and developers because the end result is, as I've said, that time is getting to be spent very inefficiently because developers don't care to apply any finish. The result of this, by the way, is that their work ends up being worth only a fraction of what it would have been worth had they put in all the effort and went the last miles. I consider Open Source to be a failure in the sense that it does not extend, nor will it ever extend, to users. It only extends to developers. But here's the catch: I can only develop for it if I'm able to use it first.

Welcome to OSS.

I've had more inviting welcomes in my life. OSS must be one of the most unwelcoming places I have ever visited.

...

No my friend, the one most bitching is just you.

The only "bitching" going on here lies within your voluminous posts

Even calling them voluminous is a statement of bitching. All you can do is bitch. Everyone who disagrees with anything as you're used to doing it in open source, you can only bitch about it. It's the negativity you've built up by working for it. It comes out whenever anyone opens your closet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> [09-07-15 13:26]:

Oh, stop being such an idiot.

Thankyou [...]

For what you care, I represent a million silent users.

Well, no matter *what* you *try* to represent, you are correct about one thing. You *will* be silent forevermore. :0: * ^From.*list@xenhideout.nl /dev/null -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/08/2015 02:09 PM, Xen wrote:

When someone is not a yea-sayer and a yes-nodder you start calling him a troll in your attempt to troll him.

no - you just a troll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 09:41 PM, John Andersen wrote:

I literally can't count the seconds with the old standby one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two method, because as soon as "one" is out of my mouth the screen has repainted.

Of course, yes, but it is not about absolute time in that sense, it is about the time that the tool offers in which you can 'mess up' the tool. Even if it was a milisecond and that milisecond offered you a window in which to type a key and it would not register that key (particularly of the thing was already accepting input, but nonetheless, equally) you could get 'spurious' (I know it means something else) -- you would get spurious (rare) errors now and then because occassionally that flaw would get triggered. Right now I can get the tool to crash by pressing alt-f2 often enough :P. I have to start "krunner" to get it back again :P. Lol, crash testing. Thanks for your patience and all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org