All, I've read that Ubuntu is going to use Upstart ( http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ ). I'm wondering how openSuSE is thinking about Upstart? If openSuSE and/or other distributions are staying with sysv init or moving to upstart? (Some in the sysv camp and others in upstart camp). Will it break the LSB? Regards, Joop. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2006-10-20 23:56:27 +0200, Joop Boonen wrote:
I've read that Ubuntu is going to use Upstart ( http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ ).
I'm wondering how openSuSE is thinking about Upstart? If openSuSE and/or other distributions are staying with sysv init or moving to upstart? (Some in the sysv camp and others in upstart camp). Will it break the LSB?
i have packages for testing (but be warned it replaces your systemV init!) otherwise we of course look how it developes. darix p.s.: http://software.opensuse.org/download/home:/darix/ -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I've read that Ubuntu is going to use Upstart ( http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ ).
I'm wondering how openSuSE is thinking about Upstart? If openSuSE and/or
There have been _so many_ sysvinit replacements, and init-ng is just one of the other ones talked about more-or-less. No switch since. Unlikely to happen without thorough evaluation.
other distributions are staying with sysv init or moving to upstart? (Some in the sysv camp and others in upstart camp). Will it break the LSB?
Regards,
Joop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-`J' -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2006-10-21 01:14:00 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
I've read that Ubuntu is going to use Upstart ( http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ ).
I'm wondering how openSuSE is thinking about Upstart? If openSuSE and/or
There have been _so many_ sysvinit replacements, and init-ng is just one of the other ones talked about more-or-less. No switch since. Unlikely to happen without thorough evaluation.
init-ng looks like fun (package at the same place.) the problem when testing init systems is the amount of work. you need to port major parts of your old init scripts to the new system. so you can properly compare both. any volunteers? darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Oct 21, 2006 at 02:01:18AM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
On 2006-10-21 01:14:00 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
I've read that Ubuntu is going to use Upstart ( http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ ).
I'm wondering how openSuSE is thinking about Upstart? If openSuSE and/or
There have been _so many_ sysvinit replacements, and init-ng is just one of the other ones talked about more-or-less. No switch since. Unlikely to happen without thorough evaluation.
init-ng looks like fun (package at the same place.)
the problem when testing init systems is the amount of work. you need to port major parts of your old init scripts to the new system. so you can properly compare both.
I think we have enough own speedups already ;) upstart however seems a new methodology on approaching the concept overall. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2006-10-21 at 11:01 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Sat, Oct 21, 2006 at 02:01:18AM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
On 2006-10-21 01:14:00 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
I've read that Ubuntu is going to use Upstart ( http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ ).
I'm wondering how openSuSE is thinking about Upstart? If openSuSE and/or
There have been _so many_ sysvinit replacements, and init-ng is just one of the other ones talked about more-or-less. No switch since. Unlikely to happen without thorough evaluation.
init-ng looks like fun (package at the same place.)
the problem when testing init systems is the amount of work. you need to port major parts of your old init scripts to the new system. so you can properly compare both.
I think we have enough own speedups already ;)
upstart however seems a new methodology on approaching the concept overall.
Is there a particular reason to re-invent the wheel? -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Kenneth Schneider a écrit :
Is there a particular reason to re-invent the wheel?
if not, airplanes whould never have been invented :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2006-10-21 at 10:36 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
Is there a particular reason to re-invent the wheel?
Have you ever seen the wheels used by stone age man? Can you imagine four of those under a BMW? If you get something better out of it, some things can do with a bit of reinventing The ubuntu people had a list of requirements for init that wasn't met by the current implementation. This was their reason for switching to the new one. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2006-10-21 at 17:05 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Sat, 2006-10-21 at 10:36 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
Is there a particular reason to re-invent the wheel?
Have you ever seen the wheels used by stone age man? Can you imagine four of those under a BMW?
No. I guess I am not as old as you are. :-)
If you get something better out of it, some things can do with a bit of reinventing
This is not re-inventing, it is fine tuning. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
If you get something better out of it, some things can do with a bit of reinventing
This is not re-inventing, it is fine tuning.
Finetuning means modifying init, not creating a new one. That's a distinction. -`J' -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2006-10-21 at 17:30 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
If you get something better out of it, some things can do with a bit of reinventing
This is not re-inventing, it is fine tuning.
Finetuning means modifying init, not creating a new one. That's a distinction.
Exactly. Just like the wheels of a BMW aren't made of stone or wood. They have been reinvented. Sometimes that's necessary, because what was before wasn't good enough --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 10/21/06, Anders Johansson <ajohansson@novell.com> wrote:
Exactly. Just like the wheels of a BMW aren't made of stone or wood. They have been reinvented. Sometimes that's necessary, because what was before wasn't good enough
I can only agree. "Why reinvent the wheel" is one of the most tired and overused questions I know of. The wheel has been reimplemented again and again and again... why should not software be allowed that? Claes --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 21 October 2006 09:44, Claes at work wrote:
On 10/21/06, Anders Johansson <ajohansson@novell.com> wrote:
Exactly. Just like the wheels of a BMW aren't made of stone or wood. They have been reinvented. Sometimes that's necessary, because what was before wasn't good enough
I can only agree. "Why reinvent the wheel" is one of the most tired and overused questions I know of.
Right up there with this chestnut: "If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we <your fondest wish here>?" RRS --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
"If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we <your fondest wish here>?"
a woman :-) god -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
If you get something better out of it, some things can do with a bit of reinventing
This is not re-inventing, it is fine tuning.
Finetuning means modifying init, not creating a new one. That's a distinction.
Exactly. Just like the wheels of a BMW aren't made of stone or wood. They have been reinvented. Sometimes that's necessary, because what was before wasn't good enough
This probably invites a long and irrelevant conversation, but BMW wheels weren't reinvented, but are the end result of a long process of "fine tuning" based upon very old improvements. The most significant improvements were the substitution of new materials for old, pneumatic tyres, disc brakes and the whole suspension. A mix of replacements and additions. No reinvention there, whatever the marketing people say. I too have a strong objection to clichéd metaphors. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 October 2006 04:11, Administrator wrote:
If you get something better out of it, some things can do with a bit of reinventing
This is not re-inventing, it is fine tuning.
Finetuning means modifying init, not creating a new one. That's a distinction.
Exactly. Just like the wheels of a BMW aren't made of stone or wood. They have been reinvented. Sometimes that's necessary, because what was before wasn't good enough
This probably invites a long and irrelevant conversation, but BMW wheels weren't reinvented, but are the end result of a long process of "fine tuning" based upon very old improvements. The most significant improvements were the substitution of new materials for old, pneumatic tyres, disc brakes and the whole suspension. A mix of replacements and additions. No reinvention there, whatever the marketing people say.
I too have a strong objection to clich�d metaphors.
Problem with any word including "reinvent" is that it is often used in more than single meaning. Here we see attempts to use "reinvent" in logical and metaphorical meaning. Logical: Reinventing should mean inventing again. It is by word construction similar to reapplying, reinserting, redoing etc. Invent can't be used in that way, as it means final action and can't be applied again on subject. Once wheel was invented, you have it. To reinvent it, you have to forget that wheel exists. But than, if you have no knowledge about wheel, you can say that you invented it, but not reinvented. So there is no logical meaning for "reinvent". Metaphorical: Reinventing should mean improving something. Marketeers are paid to invent bombastic, catch phrases, that not necessarily have anything to do with logic. Metaphor exist as expression form and trying to find, or object, word usage in it's logical meaning is pointless. -- Regards, Rajko M. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M a écrit :
Metaphorical: Reinventing should mean improving something.
no. It's doing the samething by a different method with no improvement also one people may think he's inventing something (may be a script), but other people know this script already exists, so, for him, this is reinventing... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 October 2006 10:25, jdd wrote:
Rajko M a écrit :
Metaphorical: Reinventing should mean improving something.
Add this to meaning.
It's doing the samething by a different method with no improvement.
And, sorry,
also one people may think he's inventing something (may be a script), but other people know this script already exists, so, for him, this is reinventing... for him that would be inventing.
-- Regards, Rajko M. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 October 2006 17:25, jdd wrote:
Rajko M a écrit :
Metaphorical: Reinventing should mean improving something.
no. It's doing the samething by a different method with no improvement
It doesn't even have to be a different method The problem is just that in software, people talk about "reinventing the wheel", when what's really happening is just a reimplementation. But the imagery doesn't always apply. For example, grub vs. lilo, "why reinvent the wheel, we already have a boot loader". Sure we do, but the people behind grub had such a vastly different idea of what a boot loader should be, that to make lilo fit it would mean rewriting the whole thing. Sorting algorithms is another example. "Why reinvent the wheel, we already have a sorting algorithm. Well, yes we do, but merge sort is O(log n) and radix bucket sort is O(log log n). Sometimes what was before just wasn't good enough, and it needs to be "reinvented" (or at least reimplemented)
also one people may think he's inventing something (may be a script), but other people know this script already exists, so, for him, this is reinventing...
For him it would be inventing, until someone enlightens him --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 October 2006 11:11, Administrator wrote:
This probably invites a long and irrelevant conversation, but BMW wheels weren't reinvented, but are the end result of a long process of "fine tuning" based upon very old improvements. The most significant improvements were the substitution of new materials for old, pneumatic tyres, disc brakes and the whole suspension. A mix of replacements and additions. No reinvention there, whatever the marketing people say.
If you read what I wrote, the comparison wasn't against other car wheels, it was with the wheels used by the original inventors of the wheel, i.e. stone age man. I also didn't write that the "reinventing" was done by BMW, so your objection doesn't really apply. But car wheels most definitely were reinvented in the same sense software is (by which is really meant 'reimplemented') --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 October 2006 19:47, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Sunday 22 October 2006 11:11, Administrator wrote:
This probably invites a long and irrelevant conversation, but BMW wheels weren't reinvented, but are the end result of a long process of "fine tuning" based upon very old improvements. The most significant improvements were the substitution of new materials for old, pneumatic tyres, disc brakes and the whole suspension. A mix of replacements and additions. No reinvention there, whatever the marketing people say.
If you read what I wrote, the comparison wasn't against other car wheels, it was with the wheels used by the original inventors of the wheel, i.e. stone age man. I also didn't write that the "reinventing" was done by BMW, so your objection doesn't really apply.
But car wheels most definitely were reinvented in the same sense software is (by which is really meant 'reimplemented')
ehm - arn't gasoline-operated cars stone-age, anyway? So: no need to reinvent, reimplement or reanything the wheel! (In many cases it would even be better to "ex-invent".) But while throwing in my 2 cents here it comes to my mind that the OT-List already *is* invented and would perfectly suit for threads like this without any improvements. Fine-tuning would only have to be applied to the "TO:" in the mail header: *that* would be a real improvement :-)) ;-) Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (13)
-
Administrator -
Anders Johansson -
Anders Johansson -
Claes＠work -
Daniel Bauer -
Jan Engelhardt -
jdd -
Joop Boonen -
Kenneth Schneider -
Marcus Meissner -
Marcus Rueckert -
Rajko M -
Randall R Schulz