Hi, I'm trying to copy my home files from one computer to another using rsync. I had already copied some files from home to the new computer with a usb stick, and want to update the information to include all additions to files on the old computer to the new computer. The two computers are linked via cat5 through my my router. I'm going to switch my computer for a newer build, the one I'm using as the source is around 15 years old so I want to transfer all my stored data in /home in the old computer to /home in the new computer. I'm asking the list to look over the bash commands that I've researched to make sure I've got it right. $ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) then yes then enter pasword for user on the destination computer $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark Thanks, Mark
Am 07.03.23 um 17:11 schrieb Mark Misulich:
Hi, I'm trying to copy my home files from one computer to another using rsync. I had already copied some files from home to the new computer with a usb stick, and want to update the information to include all additions to files on the old computer to the new computer. The two computers are linked via cat5 through my my router. I'm going to switch my computer for a newer build, the one I'm using as the source is around 15 years old so I want to transfer all my stored data in /home in the old computer to /home in the new computer. I'm asking the list to look over the bash commands that I've researched to make sure I've got it right.
$ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) then yes then enter pasword for user on the destination computer $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
I use directly the rsync "-e ssh" command, so it's not necessary to first open an ssh session. Password of destination will be asked. rsync -av --progress -e ssh -z /oldhome/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/newhome/lxmark I added -z to compress file data during the transfer and --progress because I like to see what happens (...that something happens...) To my (limited) understanding - please anybody correct if I am wrong: When you first open an ssh session, you will then enter the rsync command within that session, which means that you work on the destination machine, thus your command should be reverse: rsync -av mark@old.ip.x.x/home/mark/ /home/lxmark (Wait for somebody to correct me or try with adding --dry-run to see what happens before executing) -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Málaga https://www.patreon.com/danielbauer https://www.daniel-bauer.com
Daniel Bauer wrote:
I use directly the rsync "-e ssh" command, so it's not necessary to first open an ssh session. Password of destination will be asked.
"-e ssh" is the default, you don't need to add it.
I added -z to compress file data during the transfer
For a local transfer on gigabit network, I don't think compression will give you much, it might even be worse. compression works well on compressable data over slower lines.
and --progress because I like to see what happens (...that something happens...)
+1 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Mark Misulich wrote:
$ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) then yes then enter pasword for user on the destination computer $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
Hi Mark, provided you have sshd running everywhere (usually it is the default), this ought to suffice: On the source machine: rsync -av --progress /home/mark/ lxmark@des.ti.na.tion:/home/lxmark --progress is just to see what is happening. You can do a dry-run with '-n' beforehand, to see what will be done. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-07 18:42, Per Jessen wrote:
Mark Misulich wrote:
$ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) then yes then enter pasword for user on the destination computer $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
Hi Mark, provided you have sshd running everywhere (usually it is the default), this ought to suffice:
On the source machine: rsync -av --progress /home/mark/ lxmark@des.ti.na.tion:/home/lxmark
--progress is just to see what is happening.
You can do a dry-run with '-n' beforehand, to see what will be done.
I normally use these options: OPTIONS="--archive --acls --xattrs --hard-links --sparse \ --stats --human-readable --checksum" rsync --del $OPTIONS /from/ /to This assumes running as root, so: rsync --del $OPTIONS /home/ root@destination.localnet/home I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose and makes any important message to flow up fast. If I could restrict that progress output (and only that) to a number of lines in the terminal, then that would be different. Instead I look with 'mc' at the destination directory. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Tue, 2023-03-07 at 19:06 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 18:42, Per Jessen wrote:
Mark Misulich wrote:
$ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) then yes then enter pasword for user on the destination computer $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
Hi Mark, provided you have sshd running everywhere (usually it is the default), this ought to suffice:
On the source machine: rsync -av --progress /home/mark/ lxmark@des.ti.na.tion:/home/lxmark
--progress is just to see what is happening.
You can do a dry-run with '-n' beforehand, to see what will be done.
I normally use these options:
OPTIONS="--archive --acls --xattrs --hard-links --sparse \ --stats --human-readable --checksum"
rsync --del $OPTIONS /from/ /to
This assumes running as root, so:
rsync --del $OPTIONS /home/ root@destination.localnet/home
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose and makes any important message to flow up fast. If I could restrict that progress output (and only that) to a number of lines in the terminal, then that would be different.
Instead I look with 'mc' at the destination directory.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi, thanks everyone for the tips and for looking over the bash commands. Something did go wrong, in the course of rsync writing files to the destination computer. I just found I had files written to home/lxmark, then home/lxmark/lxmark, then home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark, then home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark, then home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark, then home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark. I shut off the transfer when I found this. I copied home on the source computer onto a usb stick before I tried this, so I will be able to straighten it all out on the destination computer eventually. If anyone has any ideas why my computer adventure has gone awry, let me know so I can do better next time. Thanks, Mark
Mark, et al -- ...and then Mark Misulich said... % On Tue, 2023-03-07 at 19:06 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: % > On 2023-03-07 18:42, Per Jessen wrote: % > > Mark Misulich wrote: % > > % > > > $ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) You shouldn't have logged into the new machine ... % > > > then yes % > > > then enter pasword for user on the destination computer % > > > $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark ... if you're going to use this format; your command will push (presumably from old to new). If you want to log into the new machine and pull, it's rsync ... user@old:/home/user/ /home/user/ instead. % > > ... % > % > % > I normally use these options: % > % > OPTIONS="--archive --acls --xattrs --hard-links --sparse \ % > --stats --human-readable --checksum" I'm a -auSH guy myself :-) % > ... % Hi, % thanks everyone for the tips and for looking over the bash commands. % % Something did go wrong, in the course of rsync writing files to the % destination computer. I just found I had files written to home/lxmark, % then home/lxmark/lxmark, then home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark, then % home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark, then % home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark, then % home/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark/lxmark. I shut off the transfer % when I found this. 1) I suspect the problem is at least part your starting location; see my first part above. 2) You did properly specify /home/mark/ for the source but you then left off the trailing slash lxmark.../home/lxmark on the destination. It makes a difference :-) I can't guarantee that that's the whole problem, but in combination with #1 I bet so. % ... % % If anyone has any ideas why my computer adventure has gone awry, let me % know so I can do better next time. Try this ssh lxmark@old # rsync -auSH /home/lxmark/ lxmark@new:/home/lxmark/ or this ssh lxmark@new # rsync -auSH lxmark@old:/home/lxmark/ /home/lxmark/ (note that I'm just making up your $PS1 prompt; I don't know how your command line actually looks :-) and see. % % Thanks, % Mark HTH & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
On 2023-03-07 21:59, David Thorburn-Gundlach wrote:
Mark, et al --
...and then Mark Misulich said... % On Tue, 2023-03-07 at 19:06 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: % > On 2023-03-07 18:42, Per Jessen wrote: % > > Mark Misulich wrote:
...
% > > ... % > % > % > I normally use these options: % > % > OPTIONS="--archive --acls --xattrs --hard-links --sparse \ % > --stats --human-readable --checksum"
I'm a
-auSH
guy myself :-)
I like long options, they are easier to read and know what they do. So you use: --archive, -a archive mode; equals -rlptgoD (no -H,-A,-X) --update, -u skip files that are newer on the receiver --sparse, -S turn sequences of nulls into sparse blocks --hard-links, -H preserve hard links -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it: 20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines.
_one_ line per file is too verbose, huh. You sure are difficult to please. How about one line for every ten files? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-07 20:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines.
_one_ line per file is too verbose, huh. You sure are difficult to please. How about one line for every ten files?
I don't mind a million lines, if they go to another terminal. In the terminal where the command runs I only want to see the incidents and the stats. The program could use a split text view in the terminal: half of the terminal dedicated to "--progress" output solely, with its own history and page control, and another half of the display dedicated to the rest. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 20:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines.
_one_ line per file is too verbose, huh. You sure are difficult to please. How about one line for every ten files?
I don't mind a million lines, if they go to another terminal. In the terminal where the command runs I only want to see the incidents and the stats.
Okay, if you don't have a need to see the sync progressing, don't use that option. I had a need just this morning - I installed some new GigE cards and wanted to see that I was getting traffic sent the right way. Very useful for that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-08 13:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 20:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines.
_one_ line per file is too verbose, huh. You sure are difficult to please. How about one line for every ten files?
I don't mind a million lines, if they go to another terminal. In the terminal where the command runs I only want to see the incidents and the stats.
Okay, if you don't have a need to see the sync progressing, don't use that option.
I do want to see the progress, just not in the way they do it.
I had a need just this morning - I installed some new GigE cards and wanted to see that I was getting traffic sent the right way. Very useful for that.
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-08 13:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 20:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines.
_one_ line per file is too verbose, huh. You sure are difficult to please. How about one line for every ten files?
I don't mind a million lines, if they go to another terminal. In the terminal where the command runs I only want to see the incidents and the stats.
Okay, if you don't have a need to see the sync progressing, don't use that option.
I do want to see the progress, just not in the way they do it.
Time to scratch that itch :-)
I had a need just this morning - I installed some new GigE cards and wanted to see that I was getting traffic sent the right way. Very useful for that.
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-08 14:22, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-08 13:52, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 20:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-07 19:59, Per Jessen wrote: > Carlos E. R. wrote: > >> I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose > > Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of > completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it: > > 20202_20200312075000.ts > 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
One line per file makes thousands or millions of lines.
_one_ line per file is too verbose, huh. You sure are difficult to please. How about one line for every ten files?
I don't mind a million lines, if they go to another terminal. In the terminal where the command runs I only want to see the incidents and the stats.
Okay, if you don't have a need to see the sync progressing, don't use that option.
I do want to see the progress, just not in the way they do it.
Time to scratch that itch :-)
Way too complex. I may scratch the itch I have with "locate", so that the database stores file metadata (dates, permissions, size, etc). But I'm not going to scratch anything about rsync.
I had a need just this morning - I installed some new GigE cards and wanted to see that I was getting traffic sent the right way. Very useful for that.
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
Yeah, well, it should be installed by default. I think it is in the XFCE rescue image. Use Dolphin if you prefer :-P -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.7°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-08 19:35, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [03-08-23 14:29]:
On 2023-03-08 19:35, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
so now one must decide what they determine is an OFM, which is not defined as mc. so what does that provide for your argument? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-08 19:35, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-08 20:36, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-08 19:35, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
I did know — in fact, I was tempted to make a similar joke to David's — but a search on Wikipedia finds it. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OFM> OFM may refer to: Office of Foreign Missions, part of the US Department of State Officine Ferroviarie Meridionali, an Italian railway and rolling stock manufacturer OFM (South Africa), a radio station in Bloemfontein, South Africa Open flow microperfusion, a sampling method for clinical and preclinical drug development studies and biomarker research Office of the Fire Marshal of Ontario, a fire investigation agency in Ontario, Canada Oracle Fusion Middleware, a company Orange Factory Music, a music production team Order of Friars Minor, a Franciscan religious order Order of Friars Minor Capuchin, a Franciscan religious order Conventual Franciscans, a Franciscan religious order Orthodox file manager <====== It is the only entry related to computers, so it has to be it :-D -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Conventual Franciscans, a Franciscan religious order Orthodox file manager <======
It is the only entry related to computers, so it has to be it :-D
"Oracle Fusion Middleware" does not sound computer related to you? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.0°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 09:18, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Conventual Franciscans, a Franciscan religious order Orthodox file manager <======
It is the only entry related to computers, so it has to be it :-D
"Oracle Fusion Middleware" does not sound computer related to you? Hum, midleware seemed to me related to dishware :-D
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Wed, 08 Mar 2023 20:36:21 +0100 Per Jessen <per@jessen.ch> wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-08 19:35, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
To be fair (TBF) it gave me the address of the wikipedia disambiguation page (WDP? :) for the acronym and the last item on that list was the web page already mentioned (WPAM). But I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
Dave Howorth wrote:
To be fair (TBF) it gave me the address of the wikipedia disambiguation page (WDP? :) for the acronym and the last item on that list was the web page already mentioned (WPAM). But I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
Dave, I think _not_ knowing what an OFM is makes you an excellent candidate for an admin. When can you start? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Dave Howorth wrote:
...I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions). [1] http://silk.apana.org.au/fc.html -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
...I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions).
Sort of sounds a bit like "bash" - use all your favorite command line tools without knowing what an OFM is. :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 11:08, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
...I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions).
Sort of sounds a bit like "bash" - use all your favorite command line tools without knowing what an OFM is. :-)
It is just easier inside 'mc', for some jobs. For example, type a command, then [ctrl][enter] and the selected file name is copied to the command line. [ctrl][shift][enter] and it also copies the path. With spaces and other chars properly escaped. Or, you can write scripts that act on the selected files. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 11:08, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
...I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions).
Sort of sounds a bit like "bash" - use all your favorite command line tools without knowing what an OFM is. :-)
It is just easier inside 'mc', for some jobs.
For example, type a command, then [ctrl][enter] and the selected file name is copied to the command line. [ctrl][shift][enter] and it also copies the path. With spaces and other chars properly escaped.
You mean like : type a command, then "paste" (mouse) and the selected whatever is copied to the command line. Double click on the path, and it also selects/pastes the path.
Or, you can write scripts that act on the selected files.
No??! Really??! OMD! Okay, you've won, hands down, I can't beat that, I have to get one of these OFMs installed. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 13:10, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 11:08, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
...I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions).
Sort of sounds a bit like "bash" - use all your favorite command line tools without knowing what an OFM is. :-)
It is just easier inside 'mc', for some jobs.
For example, type a command, then [ctrl][enter] and the selected file name is copied to the command line. [ctrl][shift][enter] and it also copies the path. With spaces and other chars properly escaped.
You mean like :
type a command, then "paste" (mouse) and the selected whatever is copied to the command line. Double click on the path, and it also selects/pastes the path.
No, because if the filename contains spaces, for instance, the paste doesn't run. And ctrl-enter is actually faster.
Or, you can write scripts that act on the selected files.
No??! Really??! OMD!
Okay, you've won, hands down, I can't beat that, I have to get one of these OFMs installed.
:-DDD (Selecting a number of files is easier than copy-pasting their names in the CLI.) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 13:10, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 11:08, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
...I had no idea what it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions).
Sort of sounds a bit like "bash" - use all your favorite command line tools without knowing what an OFM is. :-)
It is just easier inside 'mc', for some jobs.
For example, type a command, then [ctrl][enter] and the selected file name is copied to the command line. [ctrl][shift][enter] and it also copies the path. With spaces and other chars properly escaped.
You mean like :
type a command, then "paste" (mouse) and the selected whatever is copied to the command line. Double click on the path, and it also selects/pastes the path.
No, because if the filename contains spaces, for instance, the paste doesn't run.
Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in. (having just selected the above, then I hit paste.) Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in. (2nd paste). Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 13:41, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 13:10, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 11:08, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
> ...I had no idea what > it was either. I don't use one and prefer command-line tools in > general, but then I claim I'm not an admin either :)
All the OFMs I've used provide an in your face shell prompt, no tricks required, except in MC & FCL[1] (& probably most OFMs), a required Ctrl-o to toggle off if not already off, its window(s) before <RETURN>, in order for shell completion and/or history to function. As further proof of OFM efficacy, FCL and some other OFMs require a GUI to run. Use all your favorite command line tools without leaving the OFM, whether in GUI (or not, with exceptions).
Sort of sounds a bit like "bash" - use all your favorite command line tools without knowing what an OFM is. :-)
It is just easier inside 'mc', for some jobs.
For example, type a command, then [ctrl][enter] and the selected file name is copied to the command line. [ctrl][shift][enter] and it also copies the path. With spaces and other chars properly escaped.
You mean like :
type a command, then "paste" (mouse) and the selected whatever is copied to the command line. Double click on the path, and it also selects/pastes the path.
No, because if the filename contains spaces, for instance, the paste doesn't run.
Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in.
(having just selected the above, then I hit paste.)
Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in.
(2nd paste). Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in.
Sigh... you are being obtuse. cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> touch "file with spaces" cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> ls SAM_5792-g2.JPG SAM_5794.JPG SAM_5796-cut.JPG SAM_5797.JPG SAM_5798.JPG SAM_5799.JPG Screenshot_20210220-192408.png SAM_5792.JPG SAM_5795.JPG SAM_5796.JPG SAM_5798-cut.JPG SAM_5799-cut.JPG Screenshot_20210220-192408.jpg file with spaces cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> ls -l file with spaces ls: cannot access 'file': No such file or directory ls: cannot access 'with': No such file or directory ls: cannot access 'spaces': No such file or directory cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> cer@Telcontar:~> mc tmp/Per/ Left File Command Options Right ┌<─ ~/tmp/Per ───────.[^]>┐┌<─ ...eros/Windows ─.[^]>┐ │.n Name │Size│Modify ti││.n Name │Size│Modify ti│ │/.. │-DIR│ 9 12:37││/.. │-DIR│ 21 2017│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 1M│ 16 2021││/Wind~s 10│ 63│ 23 2015│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 3M│ 16 2021││ Foxi~.exe│ 33M│ 10 2013│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 3M│ 16 2021││ NLW_~.zip│ 15M│ 20 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 3M│ 16 2021││ Noki~.exe│ 32M│ 27 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│887K│ 16 2021││ PDFC~.exe│ 17M│ 1 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 3M│ 16 2021││ Poed~.exe│ 4M│ 23 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 5M│ 16 2021││ TomT~.exe│ 19M│ 7 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│431K│ 16 2021││ mbam~.exe│ 16M│ 29 2014│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 6M│ 16 2021││ notas │ 58│ 2 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│127K│ 17 2021││ poEd~.zip│ 5M│ 23 2009│ │ SAM_~.JPG│ 6M│ 17 2021││ poed~.exe│ 3M│ 19 2009│ │ Scre~.jpg│155K│ 20 2021││ poed~.exe│ 4M│ 19 2009│ │*Scre~.png│195K│ 20 2021││ setu~.exe│ 51M│ 17 2010│ │ file~aces│ 0│ 9 13:45││ smpl~.exe│ 13M│ 2 2009│ │ │ │ ││@wins~.exe│ 40│ 29 2014│ │ │ │ ││@wins~.exe│ 45│ 29 2014│ │ │ │ ││@wins~.zip│ 46│ 29 2014│ │ │ │ ││ wiz5~.exe│549K│ 4 2009│ │ │ │ ││ │ │ │ │ │ │ ││ │ │ │ │ │ │ ││ │ │ │ │ │ │ ││ │ │ │ │ │ │ ││ │ │ │ │ │ │ ││ │ │ │ ├─────────────────────────┤├─────────────────────────┤ │ file with spaces ││UP--DIR │ └────── 969G/1952G (49%) ─┘└────── 969G/1952G (49%) ─┘ Hint: Want your plain shell? Press C-o, and get back t cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> file\ with\ spaces [^] <======= 1Help 2Menu 3View 4Edit 5Copy 6Re~ov 7Mkdir -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 13:41, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, because if the filename contains spaces, for instance, the paste doesn't run.
Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in.
(having just selected the above, then I hit paste.) (2nd paste).
Sigh... you are being obtuse.
Not at all. Maybe re-read what you wrote.
cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> touch "file with spaces" cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> ls SAM_5792-g2.JPG SAM_5794.JPG SAM_5796-cut.JPG SAM_5797.JPG SAM_5798.JPG SAM_5799.JPG Screenshot_20210220-192408.png SAM_5792.JPG SAM_5795.JPG SAM_5796.JPG SAM_5798-cut.JPG SAM_5799-cut.JPG Screenshot_20210220-192408.jpg file with spaces cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> ls -l file with spaces ls: cannot access 'file': No such file or directory ls: cannot access 'with': No such file or directory ls: cannot access 'spaces': No such file or directory
I see that too much exposure to the Obscure File Manager has impacted your knowledge of the Linux command line :-) Let me ask - why did you feel the need to use quotes for the 'touch', but not for the 'ls' ? Just to be able to demonstrate that whitespace is the default field separator on the Linux command line? If I do it: touch file with spaces ls -l file with spaces touch "file with spaces" ls -l "file with spaces" touch file\ with\ spaces ls -l file\ with\ spaces They all work just fine. (different results of course). However, I don't at all see what it has got to do with "because if the filename contains spaces, for instance, the paste doesn't run.". Above I pasted "file with spaces" five times, it worked fine. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 14:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 13:41, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, because if the filename contains spaces, for instance, the paste doesn't run.
Must be a failure on your machine. I mean, putting space in filenames is of course a failure by itself, but I have no problem pasting a text with spaces in.
(having just selected the above, then I hit paste.) (2nd paste).
Sigh... you are being obtuse.
Not at all. Maybe re-read what you wrote.
cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> touch "file with spaces" cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> ls SAM_5792-g2.JPG SAM_5794.JPG SAM_5796-cut.JPG SAM_5797.JPG SAM_5798.JPG SAM_5799.JPG Screenshot_20210220-192408.png SAM_5792.JPG SAM_5795.JPG SAM_5796.JPG SAM_5798-cut.JPG SAM_5799-cut.JPG Screenshot_20210220-192408.jpg file with spaces cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/Per> ls -l file with spaces ls: cannot access 'file': No such file or directory ls: cannot access 'with': No such file or directory ls: cannot access 'spaces': No such file or directory
I see that too much exposure to the Obscure File Manager has impacted your knowledge of the Linux command line :-)
Let me ask - why did you feel the need to use quotes for the 'touch', but not for the 'ls' ? Just to be able to demonstrate that whitespace is the default field separator on the Linux command line?
Because the point is that 'mc' automatically generates the escapes. You can not simply click and paste a filename in the CLI obtained from an "ls" listing, you have to manually do something so that whatever command works. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 14:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Let me ask - why did you feel the need to use quotes for the 'touch', but not for the 'ls' ? Just to be able to demonstrate that whitespace is the default field separator on the Linux command line?
Because the point is that 'mc' automatically generates the escapes.
You can not simply click and paste a filename in the CLI obtained from an "ls" listing, you have to manually do something so that whatever command works.
Not if you know how to use 'ls'. man ls. If you use "-Q" with ls, filenames are listed in quotes, copy&paste works very well. Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
* Per Jessen <per@jessen.ch> [03-09-23 11:32]:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 14:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Let me ask - why did you feel the need to use quotes for the 'touch', but not for the 'ls' ? Just to be able to demonstrate that whitespace is the default field separator on the Linux command line?
Because the point is that 'mc' automatically generates the escapes.
You can not simply click and paste a filename in the CLI obtained from an "ls" listing, you have to manually do something so that whatever command works.
Not if you know how to use 'ls'. man ls.
If you use "-Q" with ls, filenames are listed in quotes, copy&paste works very well.
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
well, I "come" from Commodore/DOS/cp\m/OS/2windos and never heard of "OFM", but was very aware of TC (but not a fan) and mc. but very little main-frame aside from sorting and printing production schedules for metal stamping parts. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified. People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them. I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those. I was blown away last century when I learned I could navigate compressed archives the same as ordinary directories to extract individual files, or directly edit the content of files they contain, even when they are on remote filesystems. And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Le 09/03/2023 à 18:35, Felix Miata a écrit :
And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure.
I use daily Dolphin in split mode (same as OFM) to keep source and destination (that is often a server) together. But when I have to browse a server from a ssh terminal, mc is a must. Imagine you have to find where a application was installed years ago? cd xxx, ll is a poor solution. Same if you have to copy some files from various filder to an other one. One can even install mc on an account without being root, as my main hosting account didn't want to install, it for me :-) https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/510104/installing-midnight-commande... jdd -- mon serveur usenet: dodin.fr.nf c'est quoi, usenet? http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Usenet.Usenet
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/03/2023 à 18:35, Felix Miata a écrit :
And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure.
I use daily Dolphin in split mode (same as OFM) to keep source and destination (that is often a server) together.
But when I have to browse a server from a ssh terminal, mc is a must.
I guess I have never had the need to browse a server :-)
Imagine you have to find where a application was installed years ago?
find? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.7°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified.
The nature of most discussions here. Still, only very slightly simplified. Sofar, we have one "love it", (I'm not sure where you fit in yourself?), one "have heard of it" (Liam) and otherwise "what?".
People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them.
Discussions of "love" and "how fast" reminds me of my highschool days. (no pun intended). Back then, nerds were busy working out if RPN calculators were faster than non-RPN ditto. The true nerds were busy booting up the mini-computer.
I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those.
As a sysadmin, I work in an environment that is virtually all text, frequently over remote VPNs. I.e. usually slow. I see zero use for any OFM - most often unavailable. I may be prejudiced, but for me, OFMs are primarily for hobbyists. In the office I certainly use Konqueror and Dolphin - for the usual office stuff. Spreadsheets, documents, PDFs, graphics, music, whathaveyou. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.5°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 18:58 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
...(I'm not sure where you fit in yourself?) ...
People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. ... I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those.
...I see zero use for any OFM - most often unavailable. I may be prejudiced, but for me, OFMs are primarily for hobbyists.
You see zero because you never took the time to discover, for whatever the reason. OTOH, from the above quotes it should be evident my position (using no GUI filemanager). When I login, three OFM instances start automatically (two in Konsole3), while no other kind of file manager. There are things in my routine I can't conceptualize doing in a reasonable time, if at all, without one. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 18:58 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
...(I'm not sure where you fit in yourself?) ...
People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. ... I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those.
...I see zero use for any OFM - most often unavailable. I may be prejudiced, but for me, OFMs are primarily for hobbyists.
You see zero because you never took the time to discover, for whatever the reason.
Why waste time looking for a solution when I have no problem?
OTOH, from the above quotes it should be evident my position (using no GUI filemanager).
Okay, so we have two votes for "love it". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 18:58, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified.
The nature of most discussions here.
Still, only very slightly simplified. Sofar, we have one "love it", (I'm not sure where you fit in yourself?), one "have heard of it" (Liam) and otherwise "what?".
People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them.
Discussions of "love" and "how fast" reminds me of my highschool days. (no pun intended). Back then, nerds were busy working out if RPN calculators were faster than non-RPN ditto. The true nerds were busy booting up the mini-computer.
copying files with 'mc' is comparable to using rsync. It is very useful for copying or moving, say, photos from one directory to another, without having to type names, and yet, not firing a GUI browser like Dolphin. And it does copy files faster than dolphin or almost any other GUI. dolphin, on the other hand, is better for copy/move when you need a preview of the photo or document in order to know if it has to be moved/copied. For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, scripts, config files... Good for browsing several directories and looking inside files for the information you need. It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be it copy, move, edit...
I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those.
As a sysadmin, I work in an environment that is virtually all text, frequently over remote VPNs. I.e. usually slow. I see zero use for any OFM - most often unavailable. I may be prejudiced, but for me, OFMs are primarily for hobbyists.
'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine.
In the office I certainly use Konqueror and Dolphin - for the usual office stuff. Spreadsheets, documents, PDFs, graphics, music, whathaveyou.
Of course. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
copying files with 'mc' is comparable to using rsync.
Okay, I'll take your word for it, although it makes me wonder why I can't just use rsync. For the last week or so, I have been moving a lot of files (thousands) around, between my old mythtv backends and my new ditto. Hours and hours of rsync trundling along in the background (nohup'ed) with a sensible bwlimit.
It is very useful for copying or moving, say, photos from one directory to another, without having to type names, and yet, not firing a GUI browser like Dolphin. And it does copy files faster than dolphin or almost any other GUI.
Amazing stuff.
For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, scripts, config files...
Aha, much like vi and less and other pagers. Cool.
Good for browsing several directories and looking inside files for the information you need. It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be it copy, move, edit...
Ah, like a find and grep.
'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine.
Oh, I've never questioned whether it works, only whether it is necessary. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-10 09:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
copying files with 'mc' is comparable to using rsync.
Okay, I'll take your word for it, although it makes me wonder why I can't just use rsync.
Because you have to concoct a long command line, so long I have to look into my file of recipes and paste it? :-) rsync has advantages for big copy jobs. Oh, mc can move instead of copy. For example, grafting a file or tree from one position to another position in the tree.
For the last week or so, I have been moving a lot of files (thousands) around, between my old mythtv backends and my new ditto. Hours and hours of rsync trundling along in the background (nohup'ed) with a sensible bwlimit.
Sure, for that I also use rsync. If it is just a command or two.
It is very useful for copying or moving, say, photos from one directory to another, without having to type names, and yet, not firing a GUI browser like Dolphin. And it does copy files faster than dolphin or almost any other GUI.
Amazing stuff.
You don't say :-)
For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, scripts, config files...
Aha, much like vi and less and other pagers. Cool.
Except that I hate vi. Otherwise, no typing, except for edit. You could use emacs and dired...
Good for browsing several directories and looking inside files for the information you need. It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be it copy, move, edit...
Ah, like a find and grep.
Nope. Find and grep produces a list of hits, then I have to open the files in another terminal with less (and pasting the file name, with quotes, so as not to disturb the list. with 'mc' is just F3.
'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine.
Oh, I've never questioned whether it works, only whether it is necessary.
Obviously you can do without. It is simply more comfortable and faster. That's not "necessary". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-10 09:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
copying files with 'mc' is comparable to using rsync.
Okay, I'll take your word for it, although it makes me wonder why I can't just use rsync.
Because you have to concoct a long command line, so long I have to look into my file of recipes and paste it? :-)
That sounds like a personal problem :-) I rarely need more than : rsync -av source dest.
rsync has advantages for big copy jobs.
Well, what else do you use rsync for? I know of two exceptions * when I need to update an executable that is in use. * when I need to update a file I don't have access to (without sudo).
Oh, mc can move instead of copy.
Really?? Wow.
For the last week or so, I have been moving a lot of files (thousands) around, between my old mythtv backends and my new ditto. Hours and hours of rsync trundling along in the background (nohup'ed) with a sensible bwlimit.
Sure, for that I also use rsync. If it is just a command or two.
More like twenty or thirty - I like to do them in batches of 100/200, to keep an eye on filesystems filling up. I have have just now finished emptying a 12Tb filesystem, so I can now resize that filesystem and reuse one of the drives (in a new backend).
For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, scripts, config files...
Aha, much like vi and less and other pagers. Cool.
Except that I hate vi.
YAPP - s/vi/favourite editor/
Good for browsing several directories and looking inside files for the information you need. It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be it copy, move, edit...
Ah, like a find and grep.
Nope.
Find and grep produces a list of hits,
which is then easily piped to whatever else you want to do.
then I have to open the files in another terminal with less (and pasting the file name, with quotes, so as not to disturb the list.
YAPP. I _never_ have do that. I sense that you are just not a fan of the command line and bash scripting.
'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine.
Oh, I've never questioned whether it works, only whether it is necessary.
Obviously you can do without. It is simply more comfortable and faster.
As we have determined in this context, that applies to at least 2 (two) individuals. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-10 20:11, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-10 09:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
copying files with 'mc' is comparable to using rsync.
Okay, I'll take your word for it, although it makes me wonder why I can't just use rsync.
Because you have to concoct a long command line, so long I have to look into my file of recipes and paste it? :-)
That sounds like a personal problem :-) I rarely need more than :
rsync -av source dest.
I use rsync --archive --acls --xattrs --hard-links --sparse \ --stats --human-readable --checksum \ source/ dest
rsync has advantages for big copy jobs.
Well, what else do you use rsync for? I know of two exceptions
Smaller jobs. I don't use rsync on small jobs, I use 'mc'.
* when I need to update an executable that is in use. * when I need to update a file I don't have access to (without sudo).
Oh, mc can move instead of copy.
Really?? Wow.
rsync can't.
For the last week or so, I have been moving a lot of files (thousands) around, between my old mythtv backends and my new ditto. Hours and hours of rsync trundling along in the background (nohup'ed) with a sensible bwlimit.
Sure, for that I also use rsync. If it is just a command or two.
More like twenty or thirty - I like to do them in batches of 100/200, to keep an eye on filesystems filling up. I have have just now finished emptying a 12Tb filesystem, so I can now resize that filesystem and reuse one of the drives (in a new backend).
I would then use a single job with 'mc', which can calculate the size of the job and I see if it fits or not, in advance.
For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, scripts, config files...
Aha, much like vi and less and other pagers. Cool.
Except that I hate vi.
YAPP - s/vi/favourite editor/
Typing is so much work... :-P
Good for browsing several directories and looking inside files for the information you need. It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be it copy, move, edit...
Ah, like a find and grep.
Nope.
Find and grep produces a list of hits,
which is then easily piped to whatever else you want to do.
Not really. I have to get the list, then view some of the files to decide which of them it is.
then I have to open the files in another terminal with less (and pasting the file name, with quotes, so as not to disturb the list.
YAPP. I _never_ have do that. I sense that you are just not a fan of the command line and bash scripting.
I use both, but why would I do that when there is already a tool for the job, named 'mc'? :-)
'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine.
Oh, I've never questioned whether it works, only whether it is necessary.
Obviously you can do without. It is simply more comfortable and faster.
As we have determined in this context, that applies to at least 2 (two) individuals.
As Liam said, we find impossible to understand that you can live without an OFM in your everyday life :-P -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oh, mc can move instead of copy.
Really?? Wow.
rsync can't.
Please, reading the manual is often advisable before offering opinions. The option is "--remove-source-files". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-11 12:40, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oh, mc can move instead of copy.
Really?? Wow.
rsync can't.
Please, reading the manual is often advisable before offering opinions. The option is "--remove-source-files".
That is not "--move". And besides, I'm talking of actually moving, not copying to new destination and deleting the original. Only the directory entries change, maybe something in the inodes, but the content is not moved from its sectors on the disk. When doing it with rsync, first I do an actual copy with rsync, then check that all went well using 'mc' to do a compare, then I delete the source. Three operations, paranoid mode. I would never use "--remove-source-files". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos, et al -- Oooooookayyy ... I (vi, Bourne-pure, command-line, to GUIs/TUIs/OFMs) have been pretty much holding back while enjoying reading the flame war, but I just have to jump in here ... ...and then Carlos E. R. said... % On 2023-03-11 12:40, Per Jessen wrote: % > Carlos E. R. wrote: % > % > > > > Oh, mc can move instead of copy. ... % > % > Please, reading the manual is often advisable before offering opinions. % > The option is "--remove-source-files". % % That is not "--move". % % And besides, I'm talking of actually moving, not copying to new destination [snip] The biggest benefit of rsync is working across hosts; that's the 'r' part from rlogin & rsh days. I don't know too many use cases for using rsync to transfer files around(*) on local disk; that's a job for tar et al (works great in bulk) or, as you intimate here, just 'mv'. Why would I want to drag out ANYTHING and shovel files around when I could just 'mv' the directory and not worry about sparse-ness and hard links and so on? So, yeah, there's the --remove-source-files option to effect a "copy this stuff over there and then delete the original", which is the only kind of move you can do across devices, which therefore has to be what mc is doing if you are indeed crossing hosts (or even filesystems). And I sure would hope that mc will do the careful check of source and dest before wiping the old copy, so we're on the same page there ... but I do that whole - "copy tool of choice" source to destination - rsync to touch up if there could be any changes - md5sum source and destination and diff the results to be sure - grab a cup and think for a moment to make sure I'm not stupid-ing - delete the source tree procedure when shuffling content. I even move enough content from my primary desktop, where it comes off of the uSD cards, to the server (and occasionally between servers) that I have scripts to do the double-checking for me. But bashing rsync for having a --remove-source-files option to effect a move operation is silly. If you trust mc to verify, then trust rsync to verify and just move on. If you don't trust rsync, then why would you trust mc? And you said (snipped) that you use mc to compare; just for my own curiosity, what comparison mechanism does it use? * Yes, rsync for syncing, so if you want to keep two directory trees on the same device in sync and don't just want to use hard links then, well, rsync is your tool. But this latest rant started with "move", so I'm explicitly leaving that out. HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 at 12:50, David Thorburn-Gundlach <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> wrote:
I don't know too many use cases for using rsync to transfer files around(*) on local disk
Just for what it's worth, this is one of those lines in an email where my eyes went wide and my eyebrows shot up. In British English usage, I boggled briefly. I use `rsync` far more locally than I ever do across networks, and that's been the case since I discovered the tool in the 20th century some time. (It appeared in 1996 AFAIK.) I use it for copying stuff onto external drives for backups. I use it for copying files from an account I'm about to delete into another account, and for keeping stuff synched across different user accounts. I use it for getting stuff back off backup disks. I use it for setting up new PCs when I want to keep some of the files from an old machine. The big win for rsync is that if something is missing or can't be read or something, it keeps going. You can take stuff from 2 dissimilar sources and conslidate into one. You can update an old backup with new _and changed_ files without recopying old ones that haven't changed. For me, it's far more useful locally than it's ever been across a network. I do also use across networks, but never via its own protocol, which is a pain in the neck to configure. I use it for copying files to my NAS boxes, or from one NAS to another. I use it to copy files from one workstation onto another: I mount a drive share on the remote -- typically by SMB because it just works -- and use rsync to copy the new or changed stuff only. This has been one of those surprising moments when you find that your primary use for a tool is one that hasn't even occurred to someone else as being a use case at all. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Liam, et al -- ...and then Liam Proven said... % On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 at 12:50, David Thorburn-Gundlach % <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> wrote: % % > I don't know too many use cases for using rsync % > to transfer files around(*) on local disk % % Just for what it's worth, this is one of those lines in an email where % my eyes went wide and my eyebrows shot up. In British English usage, I % boggled briefly. Sorry about that :-) % ... % I use it for copying stuff onto external drives for backups. Snipped out below were lots of across-filesystem activities that can't be "move" but must instead be "copy-and-delete". I certainly can see rsync for those since it validates the copy before deleting the source, but I personally tend to use tar when I want to move stuff in bulk and don't need ssh in the mix. % % I use it for copying files from an account I'm about to delete into % another account, and for keeping stuff synched across different user Aha! That's a very good point, and it hadn't even occurred to me. That would be a case where I'd have to ssh into one account or the other or drag out root (whether to copy-and-delete or mv-and-chown), and rsync shines there. I just don't ever use any other accounts ;-) % accounts. I use it for getting stuff back off backup disks. I use it Continuous syncing is a yes, absolutely. ... % % The big win for rsync is that if something is missing or can't be read % or something, it keeps going. You can take stuff from 2 dissimilar I can definitely give it that, although when I run into a problem I want to stop right there and know about it. It's great for restarting after a failure, though; while not my most common use case, I'll go to it for that. ... % % This has been one of those surprising moments when you find that your % primary use for a tool is one that hasn't even occurred to someone % else as being a use case at all. And thanks for the reminder, since after excluding all of the ones that don't count as "move" there was still a good reminder for me. When I start finding myself shuffling between accounts, I'll think of you and this thread! % % -- % Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 at 14:25, David Thorburn-Gundlach <davidtg-robot@justpickone.org> wrote:
Liam, et al --
% Just for what it's worth, this is one of those lines in an email where % my eyes went wide and my eyebrows shot up. In British English usage, I % boggled briefly.
Sorry about that :-)
Oh, a good boggle doesn't hurt at all. ;-)
And thanks for the reminder, since after excluding all of the ones that don't count as "move" there was still a good reminder for me. When I start finding myself shuffling between accounts, I'll think of you and this thread!
Oh, well, glad to hear that! :-) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
On 3/13/23 14:33, Liam Proven wrote:
I use `rsync` far more locally than I ever do across networks [...]
yes, another little example for local usage: one can use `rsync --dry-run -i ...` to see which files have changed - and which not - since the last copy/backup (instead of diff, meld, ...). :-) Have a nice day, Berny
On 2023-03-16 12:24, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 3/13/23 14:33, Liam Proven wrote:
I use `rsync` far more locally than I ever do across networks [...]
yes, another little example for local usage:
one can use `rsync --dry-run -i ...` to see which files have changed - and which not - since the last copy/backup (instead of diff, meld, ...). :-)
Interesting. I use 'mc' to compare directories and see which file changed :-) Or, you can keep checksums and compare them. A program doing this on a tree would be faster, because it doesn't need to read the backup, only the source. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 3/16/23 7:24 AM, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 3/13/23 14:33, Liam Proven wrote:
I use `rsync` far more locally than I ever do across networks [...]
yes, another little example for local usage:
one can use `rsync --dry-run -i ...` to see which files have changed - and which not - since the last copy/backup (instead of diff, meld, ...). :-)
Have a nice day, Berny
That's a REALLY nice use case. I'll definitely be using that. Thanks. Does the term "change" include a difference in permissions and/or time/date?
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 13:06:45 -0400, "gebser@mousecar.com" <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
On 3/16/23 7:24 AM, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
yes, another little example for local usage:
one can use `rsync --dry-run -i ...` to see which files have changed - and which not - since the last copy/backup (instead of diff, meld, ...). :-)
That's a REALLY nice use case. I'll definitely be using that. Thanks. Does the term "change" include a difference in permissions and/or time/date?
Yes, rsync lists that info when using the --itemize-changes (-i) option. It is more thorough than the --verbose (-v) option, at least for simple use without detailed info options. By default, the --log-file option will save that same itemize info to a file. I prefer to use '-i' and redirect to a file, though, to get the header and footer info saved also. -- Robert Webb
David Thorburn-Gundlach wrote:
The biggest benefit of rsync is working across hosts; that's the 'r' part from rlogin & rsh days. I don't know too many use cases for using rsync to transfer files around(*) on local disk; that's a job for tar et al (works great in bulk) or, as you intimate here, just 'mv'.
It's probably just me and my peculiar habits - * copying anything needing root access, when I'm generally in user mode. e.g. rsync -av something root@localhost:/dest/ * for longer running copies, I like that rsync is restartable.
But bashing rsync for having a --remove-source-files option to effect a move operation is silly.
+1 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.5°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-13 13:50, David Thorburn-Gundlach wrote:
Carlos, et al --
Oooooookayyy ... I (vi, Bourne-pure, command-line, to GUIs/TUIs/OFMs) have been pretty much holding back while enjoying reading the flame war, but I just have to jump in here ...
...and then Carlos E. R. said... % On 2023-03-11 12:40, Per Jessen wrote: % > Carlos E. R. wrote: % > % > > > > Oh, mc can move instead of copy. ... % > % > Please, reading the manual is often advisable before offering opinions. % > The option is "--remove-source-files". % % That is not "--move". % % And besides, I'm talking of actually moving, not copying to new destination [snip]
The biggest benefit of rsync is working across hosts; that's the 'r' part from rlogin & rsh days. I don't know too many use cases for using rsync to transfer files around(*) on local disk; that's a job for tar et al (works great in bulk) or, as you intimate here, just 'mv'. Why would I want to drag out ANYTHING and shovel files around when I could just 'mv' the directory and not worry about sparse-ness and hard links and so on?
So, yeah, there's the --remove-source-files option to effect a "copy this stuff over there and then delete the original", which is the only kind of move you can do across devices, which therefore has to be what mc is doing if you are indeed crossing hosts (or even filesystems). And I sure would hope that mc will do the careful check of source and dest before wiping the old copy, so we're on the same page there ... but I do that whole
- "copy tool of choice" source to destination - rsync to touch up if there could be any changes - md5sum source and destination and diff the results to be sure - grab a cup and think for a moment to make sure I'm not stupid-ing - delete the source tree
rsync can do a checksum compare in the same command line. mc doesn't do an automatic compare. But you can ask it to do a compare, as a second operation. Of a directory, not of a tree. I don't like tar for doing a copy or move (local).
procedure when shuffling content. I even move enough content from my primary desktop, where it comes off of the uSD cards, to the server (and occasionally between servers) that I have scripts to do the double-checking for me.
But bashing rsync for having a --remove-source-files option to effect a move operation is silly. If you trust mc to verify, then trust rsync to verify and just move on. If you don't trust rsync, then why would you trust mc? And you said (snipped) that you use mc to compare; just for my own curiosity, what comparison mechanism does it use?
No, I don't trust myself to have done the perfect rsync concoction to do a copy and delete source in a single command line.
* Yes, rsync for syncing, so if you want to keep two directory trees on the same device in sync and don't just want to use hard links then, well, rsync is your tool. But this latest rant started with "move", so I'm explicitly leaving that out.
HAND
:-D
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
From: "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:22:33 +0100 On 2023-03-10 09:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote: . . .
For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, scripts, config files...
Aha, much like vi and less and other pagers. Cool.
Except that I hate vi. Otherwise, no typing, except for edit. You could use emacs and dired... Keep going . . . ;-}
Good for browsing several directories and looking inside files for the information you need. It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be it copy, move, edit...
Ah, like a find and grep.
Nope. Find and grep produces a list of hits, then I have to open the files in another terminal with less (and pasting the file name, with quotes, so as not to disturb the list. In emacs, FWIW, M-x grep and M-x grep-find give you a list of hits that you can step through or random-access, pulling each hit into another window by turns. No need for other programs (if you don't mind viewing & editing in emacs). And with emacs (and cheap RAM), I can have as many shells-in-a-buffer as I need, so I set my pager to "cat" and use emacs scrolling & search capabilities instead. with 'mc' is just F3. Out of curiousity, what does F3 do in mc?
'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine.
Oh, I've never questioned whether it works, only whether it is necessary.
Obviously you can do without. It is simply more comfortable and faster. That's not "necessary". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. On the contrary, what is most efficient quickly becomes "necessary" -- the more efficient it is over the alternatives, the more necessary. -- Bob
* Bob Rogers <rogers@rgrjr.com> [03-10-23 18:39]: ...
Out of curiousity, what does F3 do in mc?
views a file -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-03-11 00:39, Bob Rogers wrote:
From: "Carlos E. R." <> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:22:33 +0100
On 2023-03-10 09:26, Per Jessen wrote: > Carlos E. R. wrote: > . . . >> For admin work, 'mc' can view or edit text based files: logs, >> scripts, config files... > > Aha, much like vi and less and other pagers. Cool.
Except that I hate vi. Otherwise, no typing, except for edit.
You could use emacs and dired...
Keep going . . . ;-}
:-)
>> Good for browsing several directories and looking >> inside files for the information you need. >> It can do a search of files in trees, including grepping for contents, >> then for example do some operation on the resulting list of files, be >> it copy, move, edit... > > Ah, like a find and grep.
Nope.
Find and grep produces a list of hits, then I have to open the files in another terminal with less (and pasting the file name, with quotes, so as not to disturb the list.
In emacs, FWIW, M-x grep and M-x grep-find give you a list of hits that you can step through or random-access, pulling each hit into another window by turns. No need for other programs (if you don't mind viewing & editing in emacs).
And with emacs (and cheap RAM), I can have as many shells-in-a-buffer as I need, so I set my pager to "cat" and use emacs scrolling & search capabilities instead.
with 'mc' is just F3.
Out of curiousity, what does F3 do in mc?
View the current file. F4 for edit.
>> 'mc' works fine over a remote and slow connection. You may not need it >> because you are used to your own methods, but it does work fine. > > Oh, I've never questioned whether it works, only whether it is > necessary.
Obviously you can do without. It is simply more comfortable and faster. That's not "necessary".
On the contrary, what is most efficient quickly becomes "necessary" -- the more efficient it is over the alternatives, the more necessary.
:-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2023-03-09 18:35, Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified. People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them.
I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those. I was blown away last century when I learned I could navigate compressed archives the same as ordinary directories to extract individual files, or directly edit the content of files they contain, even when they are on remote filesystems.
The windows file explorer also opens (or did open) compressed archives, but hid the fact it was opening an archive and make one believe it was just another directory.
And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure.
I found xtree at some point and loved it. 'nc' I did not like. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 18:35, Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified. People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them.
I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those. I was blown away last century when I learned I could navigate compressed archives the same as ordinary directories to extract individual files, or directly edit the content of files they contain, even when they are on remote filesystems.
The windows file explorer also opens (or did open) compressed archives, but hid the fact it was opening an archive and make one believe it was just another directory.
It's been a while for me, but ISTR you needed some 3rd party extension installed? (Winzip?) Windows NT or 2000 I think it was. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 20:06, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 18:35, Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified. People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them.
I suppose various GUI file managers have adopted functionality from them, but I've almost never even opened one of those. I was blown away last century when I learned I could navigate compressed archives the same as ordinary directories to extract individual files, or directly edit the content of files they contain, even when they are on remote filesystems.
The windows file explorer also opens (or did open) compressed archives, but hid the fact it was opening an archive and make one believe it was just another directory.
It's been a while for me, but ISTR you needed some 3rd party extension installed? (Winzip?) Windows NT or 2000 I think it was.
At least for reading, I think not. I can check, I have a W10 virtual machine running this minute. [...] In the context menu of the file explorer, there is create new text file or document, and create new zip compressed folder (translating name from Spanish). I certainly have not installed winzip. A search for zip in the launcher finds nothing, except that new folder. Heh, I told it to use Firefox as default web browser, and now I get "adverts" to make edge the default in several menus. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
From: Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:35:31 -0500 Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-09 17:32 (UTC+0100):
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
That's oversimplified. People love it because they took the time to discover how blazingly fast and efficient using one can be. There's good reason the term orthodox was applied to them. Hear, hear. . . . And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure. Not true; the Wikipedia article cites DIRED from SAIL in 1974 and Neptune on the Xerox Alto from 1973-74 as predecessors [1]. I have used Emacs dired for ages myself; the point of all these TUI interfaces (which I don't think has been made in this thread) is that it makes interaction much faster than in point-and-click interfaces, once you learn the keystrokes. And the point of integration with Emacs, my primary computer interface, should be self-explanatory. ;-} -- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/ [1] So giving DOS credit here is in the same league as saying that Bill Gates invented the computer mouse. :-/
On 2023-03-09 21:05, Bob Rogers wrote:
From: Felix Miata <>
...
And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure.
Not true; the Wikipedia article cites DIRED from SAIL in 1974 and Neptune on the Xerox Alto from 1973-74 as predecessors [1]. I have used Emacs dired for ages myself; the point of all these TUI interfaces (which I don't think has been made in this thread) is that it makes interaction much faster than in point-and-click interfaces, once you learn the keystrokes.
That's true, but it is not the only thing. File copy operation, or file delete operations, for instance, are faster because updating a text display is usually faster than updating a GUI display, as the program does its job behind the display.
And the point of integration with Emacs, my primary computer interface, should be self-explanatory. ;-}
I have never been happy with the emacs interface, nor vi's.
-- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/
[1] So giving DOS credit here is in the same league as saying that Bill Gates invented the computer mouse. :-/
Well, I never heard of those ancient predecessors. My first computer I owned was a MsDOS / DR DOS PC. Or maybe a TI-57. However, I'm not sure those predecessors were OFMs, whereas the MsDOS tools were. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
From: "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:16:22 +0100 On 2023-03-09 21:05, Bob Rogers wrote:
Not true; the Wikipedia article cites DIRED from SAIL in 1974 and Neptune on the Xerox Alto from 1973-74 as predecessors [1]. I have used Emacs dired for ages myself; the point of all these TUI interfaces (which I don't think has been made in this thread) is that it makes interaction much faster than in point-and-click interfaces, once you learn the keystrokes.
That's true, but it is not the only thing. File copy operation, or file delete operations, for instance, are faster because updating a text display is usually faster than updating a GUI display, as the program does its job behind the display. True.
And the point of integration with Emacs, my primary computer interface, should be self-explanatory. ;-}
I have never been happy with the emacs interface, nor vi's. I learned vi before emacs, then learned emacs as I was learning Lisp, and found that they both have their quirks. But the fact that emacs can be customized on many levels, including via Lisp coding, made it quickly become far more comfortable for me than vi.
-- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/
[1] So giving DOS credit here is in the same league as saying that Bill Gates invented the computer mouse. :-/
Well, I never heard of those ancient predecessors. My first computer I owned was a MsDOS / DR DOS PC. Or maybe a TI-57. I go back as far as PDP-8's in the mid-70's, when operating systems were legion. Let's see now, at one time in 1975 or 1976 I was using RT-11 DOS, RSTS V4-12a BASIC timesharing, and BASIC Timesharing Incorporated systems on PDP-11 hardware, timeshared Edusystem-something BASIC on PDP-8 hardware, and something else I don't recall (a minicomputer spinoff from DEC that went out of business relatively quickly in the PC era). All of this was pre-GUI, and it was easier to learn different operating systems at the time, because they were all much simpler (and stupider). That's not counting the other systems I got to see in operation -- I got demos of Arpanet, and tours of SAIL and Xerox Parc, my first glimpse of GUIs and mice a full decade before Windows, thanks to growing up in Silcon Valley. Pity I picked the wrong startups to work for. However, I'm not sure those predecessors were OFMs, whereas the MsDOS tools were. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) I'm not completely sure where the dividing lines are between a "directory editor," a "file-list manager, and an "OFM" according to the Wikipedia page. I believe dired is single-pane and the others are multipane, but the other distinction escapes me. -- Bob
Bob Rogers composed on 2023-03-09 12:05 (UTC-0800):
Felix Miata composed
And yes, "they" originated from the DOS world in 1985-1986 as VDOS (visual shell for DOS), renamed Norton Commander for 1986 initial release, which was my first exposure.
Not true; the Wikipedia article cites DIRED from SAIL in 1974 and Neptune on the Xerox Alto from 1973-74 as predecessors [1]. I have used Emacs dired for ages myself; the point of all these TUI interfaces (which I don't think has been made in this thread) is that it makes interaction much faster than in point-and-click interfaces, once you learn the keystrokes. And the point of integration with Emacs, my primary computer interface, should be self-explanatory. ;-}
-- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/
[1] So giving DOS credit here is in the same league as saying that Bill Gates invented the computer mouse. :-/
What I wrote came from the OFM encyclopedia: "Less is More: The Orthodox File Manager (OFM) Paradigm" @ https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/Ofm_01.shtml It was initially written long before Wikipedia existed. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
From: Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 18:05:45 -0500 . . . What I wrote came from the OFM encyclopedia: "Less is More: The Orthodox File Manager (OFM) Paradigm" @ https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/Ofm_01.shtml It was initially written long before Wikipedia existed. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata Upon rereading, I see I am guilty of lumping dired and earlier systems in with OFMs, because (I believe) they have similar TUI-oriented user interfaces and comparable capabilities. However, I have to agree that OFMs are different enough from the others to warrant a separate category, so what I said about prior art does not contradict what you have cited about their origins. I apologize for posting rashly. -- Bob
On 2023-03-09 17:32, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-09 14:26, Per Jessen wrote:
Let me ask - why did you feel the need to use quotes for the 'touch', but not for the 'ls' ? Just to be able to demonstrate that whitespace is the default field separator on the Linux command line?
Because the point is that 'mc' automatically generates the escapes.
You can not simply click and paste a filename in the CLI obtained from an "ls" listing, you have to manually do something so that whatever command works.
Not if you know how to use 'ls'. man ls.
I have read it many times...
If you use "-Q" with ls, filenames are listed in quotes, copy&paste works very well.
I had no idea of that. News to me. Never heard of it. Etc. :-p Tried it now. It puts everything in quotes, even the names that do not need it. Consistency? -Q, --quote-name enclose entry names in double quotes --quoting-style=WORD use quoting style WORD for entry names: literal, locale, shell, shell-always, shell-escape, shell-es- cape-always, c, escape (overrides QUOTING_STYLE environment variable) Thousands of times I have copy pasted ls listings and added the quotes manually in an editor. You could have told me this decades ago! :-P
Anyway, very entertaining discussion - especially that it seems to divide people into "love it" or "never heard of it".
:-) I did not know what an OFM was till a few years back, despite using them for decades. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Thousands of times I have copy pasted ls listings and added the quotes manually in an editor.
You could have told me this decades ago! :-P
I have never had much use for it, I didn't imagine anyone else would :-) It's just one of those quirky things you pick up along the way, but I think I noticed it being the default on some or other system, maybe Raspbian? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 20:36 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
Google should have produced this: https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/ It's been around nearly 3 decades. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2023-03-08 21:35, Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 20:36 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
Google should have produced this: https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/ It's been around nearly 3 decades.
Interesting. Amazing that someone can write that lot about it. But he doesn't include XTree in table 1. he mentions it in the text, though. 9 times in chapter 1. I never liked NC, I preferred XTree. The Linux version was quite lacking, so I had to switch to 'mc'. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never liked NC, I preferred XTree. The Linux version was quite lacking, so I had to switch to 'mc'.
Chuckle - you didn't like 'NC', so you had to switch to the clone 'mc' instead. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 09:32, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never liked NC, I preferred XTree. The Linux version was quite lacking, so I had to switch to 'mc'.
Chuckle - you didn't like 'NC', so you had to switch to the clone 'mc' instead.
Yes. In MsDOS there were better choices, for whatever definition of "better" :-) Then I came to love 'mc'. Possibly 'mc' derives from a later version of 'NC' that I did not meet. I think that book mentions this. Hum! The book says there is a GUI version of Midnight Commander since version 4.5. I have not seen it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 20:36 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
Google should have produced this: https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/ It's been around nearly 3 decades. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Order of Friars Minor. Better known as the Franciscans. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 2:42 PM Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 20:36 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
> I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
Google should have produced this: https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/ It's been around nearly 3 decades. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 20:36 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
Google should have produced this: https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/ It's been around nearly 3 decades.
Oh, I can beat that, but I've still never heard of it nor do I recall ever using one. Maybe, just _maybe_ Norton Commander, but that must have been in the DOS days - a lot of operating systems under the bridge since then. Someone might find these other Google results interes... amusing: OnlineFussballManager ofm.co.za (radio station in South Africa) ofminc (some compnay) ofm facebork page (radio station above) ofm.org - the not so orthodox franciscan monks ofm wikipedia hits office of foreign missions Officine Ferroviare Meridionali Google then suggests I try "OFM software", but that's not much better. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 08:37, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 20:36 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
Google should have produced this: https://softpanorama.org/OFM/Paradigm/ It's been around nearly 3 decades.
Oh, I can beat that, but I've still never heard of it nor do I recall ever using one. Maybe, just _maybe_ Norton Commander, but that must have been in the DOS days - a lot of operating systems under the bridge since then.
«OFM usage is also part of the hacker culture, especially East European hacker culture -- for example in Russia it is a must to any self-respected hacker to impress his friends by performing blazingly fast file operations on a favorite OFM (in old days it was usually VC). Later it migrated in Unix administration and most Linux and FreeBSD administrators in Eastern Europe used this type of managers in their daily work (Deco and Midnight Commander are probably the most popular but many others are used). »
Someone might find these other Google results interes... amusing:
OnlineFussballManager ofm.co.za (radio station in South Africa) ofminc (some compnay) ofm facebork page (radio station above) ofm.org - the not so orthodox franciscan monks ofm wikipedia hits office of foreign missions Officine Ferroviare Meridionali
Google then suggests I try "OFM software", but that's not much better.
Ask GPT, then. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 at 11:10, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Later it migrated in Unix administration and most Linux and FreeBSD administrators in Eastern Europe used this type of managers in their daily work (Deco and Midnight Commander are probably the most popular but many others are used).
It's exaggerated, but: can confirm. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Le 08/03/2023 à 20:36, Per Jessen a écrit :
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
and Dolphin works perfectly like this, with better friendship than mc, when available :-) jdd -- mon serveur usenet: dodin.fr.nf c'est quoi, usenet? http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Usenet.Usenet
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 08/03/2023 à 20:36, Per Jessen a écrit :
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
and Dolphin works perfectly like this, with better friendship than mc, when available :-)
Now that I have figured out what an Obscure File Manager is, Dolphin does not fit the definition :-) Judging by the wikipedia page that Carlos kindly dug up, an OFM is text based. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 10:29, Per Jessen wrote:
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 08/03/2023 à 20:36, Per Jessen a écrit :
Orthodox File Manager :-) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers>
I guess the meaning of OFM is a well kept secret for the inner circle of the initiated, Google certainly had no idea.
and Dolphin works perfectly like this, with better friendship than mc, when available :-)
The advantages of 'mc' over 'Dolphin' are: Works inside an ssh session Blazingly fast Customization
Now that I have figured out what an Obscure File Manager is, Dolphin does not fit the definition :-) Judging by the wikipedia page that Carlos kindly dug up, an OFM is text based.
No, there are GUI based OFMs. Krusader, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krusader https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME_Commander Dolphin is a "Navigational File Manager" -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 at 09:29, Per Jessen <per@jessen.ch> wrote:
Judging by the wikipedia page that Carlos kindly dug up, an OFM is text based.
No, not at all. I did not know the term until I moved to the Czech Republic. My first landlord is a computer hobbyist, runs Windows and uses a tool called Total Commander. He loves it, and was amazed that I'd never heard of it. https://www.ghisler.com/ He asked me what I used instead of it on Linux. I said that I didn't. He was shocked. He considers the Windows Explorer to be unusable, and still used this weird old tool that looked to me a bit like a Windows 3.0 File Manager. In my 2nd job in Czechia, a Windows shop, I discovered that all machines in the company came with Total Commander pre-installed. The company had a site licence. _Everyone_ used it. It is huge in the Central European market. A few people use different but very similar tools. There are loads of Linux ones, e.g. https://www.linuxlinks.com/orthodoxfilemanagers/ I don't get it. I don't feel any need for them, and I never usually use them at all. I am happy with Nemo or Thunar on my laptops. But yes, they are very much still a thing and even today widely used and loved by thousands, maybe millions, of people. My Czech techie friends all use such tools and were really shocked when I told them that I had never even _seen_ such a thing in the UK techie community, not since the Amiga days and Directory Opus. https://www.gpsoft.com.au/ Which some Amiga-to-Linux migrants miss, too. https://alternativeto.net/software/directory-opus/?platform=linux The "OFM" seems to be a tool that people either love, or have never even heard of. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Liam Proven wrote:
I don't get it. I don't feel any need for them, and I never usually use them at all. I am happy with Nemo or Thunar on my laptops.
But yes, they are very much still a thing and even today widely used and loved by thousands, maybe millions, of people.
My Czech techie friends all use such tools and were really shocked when I told them that I had never even _seen_ such a thing in the UK techie community, not since the Amiga days and Directory Opus.
Which some Amiga-to-Linux migrants miss, too.
https://alternativeto.net/software/directory-opus/?platform=linux
The "OFM" seems to be a tool that people either love, or have never even heard of.
It's quite amazing. I wonder if it might depend on one's professional career path. I've worked primarily with mainframes, but since the late-90s, AIX/HP-UX/Solaris were also part of my daily life, later on Linux too of course. It sounds like those OFMs came out of the DOS/Windows world, something I used for gaming and to run my 3270-emulator on :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
On 2023-03-09 15:46, Liam Proven wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 at 09:29, Per Jessen <per@jessen.ch> wrote:
Judging by the wikipedia page that Carlos kindly dug up, an OFM is text based.
No, not at all.
I did not know the term until I moved to the Czech Republic. My first landlord is a computer hobbyist, runs Windows and uses a tool called Total Commander. He loves it, and was amazed that I'd never heard of it.
:-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Commander Ah, made in object pascal. Delphi, and now Lazarus. I'm starting to love it ;-) Can run in Wine. Even better. Not that I'm going to use it in Linux, but I like this. I must try it in Windows. [...] Did so. It is shareware, a trial version for a limited time. Then I am afraid I'll drop it. I use Windows so little that it is not justified to pay for it.
He asked me what I used instead of it on Linux. I said that I didn't. He was shocked. He considers the Windows Explorer to be unusable, and still used this weird old tool that looked to me a bit like a Windows 3.0 File Manager.
It is maintained, so it means that it handles long names. The old 'nc' I'm afraid doesn't, dunno if there was a version that did.
In my 2nd job in Czechia, a Windows shop, I discovered that all machines in the company came with Total Commander pre-installed. The company had a site licence. _Everyone_ used it. It is huge in the Central European market. A few people use different but very similar tools.
:-D
There are loads of Linux ones, e.g. https://www.linuxlinks.com/orthodoxfilemanagers/
I don't get it. I don't feel any need for them, and I never usually use them at all. I am happy with Nemo or Thunar on my laptops.
But yes, they are very much still a thing and even today widely used and loved by thousands, maybe millions, of people. My Czech techie friends all use such tools and were really shocked when I told them that I had never even _seen_ such a thing in the UK techie community, not since the Amiga days and Directory Opus.
Indeed. I'm shocked. :-D
Which some Amiga-to-Linux migrants miss, too.
https://alternativeto.net/software/directory-opus/?platform=linux
The "OFM" seems to be a tool that people either love, or have never even heard of.
'mc' has some broken parts. Like the ssh browsing of another machine in the other panel (SFTP link). I wonder why, if there are so many users, it gets so little maintenance. Hum, I'm surprised, it seems to work now. I have been using "sshfs" fired externally for years. Or was it "SSH link"? No, shell link. <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/users@lists.opensuse.org/thread/ZZAS2R7LZX5RQQLR5KGKTACUJK5B5LOJ/#SJXAA2ZURJFHJFGUC6YMMF452TYOZKKV> Re: [opensuse] mc in 13.2: no "shell link" On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Carlos E. R. Hum. I don't have it clear if this sftp is secure ftp or ssh. It uses "/usr/lib/ssh/sftp-server" on the other machine. :-? Huh, how come that the list archive displays the posts in variable width font? It makes posts like this unreadable. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 09/03/2023 à 20:02, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
'mc' has some broken parts. Like the ssh browsing of another machine in the other panel (SFTP link).
it's bizarre in it's use of password less ssh, the mc config do not work with the usual ssh config, but it's over this thread goal jdd -- mon serveur usenet: dodin.fr.nf c'est quoi, usenet? http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Usenet.Usenet
On 2023-03-09 20:14, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/03/2023 à 20:02, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
'mc' has some broken parts. Like the ssh browsing of another machine in the other panel (SFTP link).
it's bizarre in it's use of password less ssh, the mc config do not work with the usual ssh config, but it's over this thread goal
I don't remember if it asked for the password a minute ago, so I tried again in a second terminal. In this second terminal, when I selected "sftp link" it offered the same server and login I used in the first terminal. Somehow it knows. And, did not prompt for password. On the first terminal it asked if I was sure this was a known host, but I don't remember about password. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-03-09 20:02 (UTC+0100):
Ah, made in object pascal. Delphi, and now Lazarus. I'm starting to love it ;-)
Can run in Wine. Even better. Not that I'm going to use it in Linux, but I like this. I must try it in Windows.
Did so. It is shareware, a trial version for a limited time. Then I am afraid I'll drop it. I use Windows so little that it is not justified to pay for it.
FC/2's inception was OS/2. My first exposure was v1.1 in 1994. Originally it was shareware. FC/L came much later, and Windows. The public key I have is from 2010. So, on Windows and OS/2 I'm only using FC/W, while on Linux both FC/L and MC. http://silk.apana.org.au/fc.html -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2023-03-10 00:25, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-03-09 20:02 (UTC+0100):
Ah, made in object pascal. Delphi, and now Lazarus. I'm starting to love it ;-)
Can run in Wine. Even better. Not that I'm going to use it in Linux, but I like this. I must try it in Windows.
Did so. It is shareware, a trial version for a limited time. Then I am afraid I'll drop it. I use Windows so little that it is not justified to pay for it.
FC/2's inception was OS/2. My first exposure was v1.1 in 1994. Originally it was shareware. FC/L came much later, and Windows. The public key I have is from 2010. So, on Windows and OS/2 I'm only using FC/W, while on Linux both FC/L and MC. http://silk.apana.org.au/fc.html
Sorry, what's "FC/2"? Ah, File Commander, for OS/2. Never used OS/2. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-03-10 12:25 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
FC/2's inception was OS/2. My first exposure was v1.1 in 1994. Originally it was shareware. FC/L came much later, and Windows. The public key I have is from 2010. So, on Windows and OS/2 I'm only using FC/W, while on Linux both FC/L and MC. http://silk.apana.org.au/fc.html
Sorry, what's "FC/2"?
Ah, File Commander, for OS/2. Never used OS/2.
It's how I avoided need for Windows to reach the internet before I was ready to use Linux full time. I'm still using it on hardware to run DOS apps that Linux and Windows can't. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2023-03-10 17:08, Felix Miata wrote:
It's how I avoided need for Windows to reach the internet before I was ready to use Linux full time. I'm still using it on hardware to run DOS apps that Linux and Windows can't.
I also used OS/2 and most of my Windows experience was with it. I also used to provide 3rd level OS/2 support at IBM Canada. I have never owned a Windows only computer any longer than it took me to make it dual boot.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-03-08 19:35, Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I use 'mc' to look at the destination instead.
I would have to install it ...
How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p
I don't even know what an OFM is? :-)
Orthodox File Manager :-)
Why do I keep thinking of Sean Connery in "Name of the Rose" ? He was even a Franciscan monk, that fits OFM remarkably well. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Per & Felix, et al -- ...and then Per Jessen said... % Felix Miata wrote: % % > Per Jessen composed on 2023-03-08 14:22 (UTC+0100): % > % > How can anyone be an admin and not use an OFM? :p % % I don't even know what an OFM is? :-) Same here: davidtg@jpo:~> lynx -dump http://google.com/search?q=define%3Aofm [1]Google define:ofm__________ Search ALL [2]IMAGES [3]NEWS [4]VIDEOS [5]Wikipedia The Order of Friars Minor (also called the Franciscans, the Franciscan Order, or the Seraphic Order; postnominal abbreviation OFM) is a mendicant Catholic religious order , founded in 1209 by Francis of Assisi. [6]Order of Friars Minor - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org ? wiki ? Order_of_Friars_Minor [7]About Featured Snippets [8]ofm - Urban Dictionary www.urbandictionary.com ? define ? term=ofm Oh fuck me, startled expression on seeing something unexpected, such as a really nasty URL or shocking You Tube video. Dude, did you see the dead guy video - ... [9]OFM - Wiktionary en.wiktionary.org ? wiki ? OFM (Catholicism) Initialism of Order of Friars Minor or Ordo Fratrum Minorem, the Franciscans, a religious order of mendicant friars. Haymo of Faversham, O.F.M.. [10]English · [11]Proper noun [12]OFM definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary www.collinsdictionary.com ? dictionary ? english ? ofm OFM definition: Ordo Fratrum Minorum (the Franciscans ) | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples. [13]O.f.m. Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com www.dictionary.com ? browse ? ofm O.f.m. definition, Order of Friars Minor (Franciscan). See more. [14]OFM - What does OFM stand for? The Free Dictionary acronyms.thefreedictionary.com ? OFM OFM, Order of Friars Minor; Franciscans (Order in Roman Catholic Church) ; OFM, Ordinis Fratrum Minorum (Latin: Order of Friars Minor) ; OFM, Outdoor Fan Motor ( ... [15]OFM - definition of OFM by The Free Dictionary www.thefreedictionary.com ? OFM Order of Friars Minor (Franciscan). Complete English Grammar Rules is now available in paperback and eBook formats. Make it yours today! Advertisement ... [16]OFM - Definition by AcronymFinder www.acronymfinder.com ? OFM What does OFM stand for? ; OFM, Office of Financial Management ; OFM, Ordinis Fratrum Minorum (Latin: Order of Friars Minor) ; OFM, Outdoor Fan Motor (various ... [17]What does OFM stand for? - Abbreviations.com www.abbreviations.com ? OFM Looking for the definition of OFM? Find out what is the full meaning of OFM on Abbreviations.com! 'Office of Financial Management' is one option -- get in ... [18]OFM - definition and meaning - Wordnik www.wordnik.com ? words ? OFM OFM: Order of Friars Minor. ... from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition. abbreviation Order of Friars Minor ... [19]Next > Obligatory File Mangler? Optical Filing Manager? Ordered Flatulence Monitor? I guess this is an OFM[8] moment for me ... :-) % % -- % Per Jessen, Zürich (13.7°C) % Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) % We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
Dne úterý 7. března 2023 19:59:55 CET, Per Jessen napsal(a):
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I never use "--progress", it is way too verbose
Too verbose? one line per file, indicating the percentage of completion. Well, that is what I see on stdout when I use it:
20202_20200312075000.ts 512,065,536 6% 7.82MB/s 0:14:18
These are two lines. :-) "-v" gives single line per file. ;-) -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
You may try grsync as a graphical frontend to rsync. BR Pete Am 07/03/2023 um 17:11 schrieb Mark Misulich:
Hi, I'm trying to copy my home files from one computer to another using rsync. I had already copied some files from home to the new computer with a usb stick, and want to update the information to include all additions to files on the old computer to the new computer. The two computers are linked via cat5 through my my router. I'm going to switch my computer for a newer build, the one I'm using as the source is around 15 years old so I want to transfer all my stored data in /home in the old computer to /home in the new computer. I'm asking the list to look over the bash commands that I've researched to make sure I've got it right.
$ ssh lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x (enter) then yes then enter pasword for user on the destination computer $ rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
Thanks, Mark
On 3/7/23 16:11, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 3/7/23 10:11, Mark Misulich wrote:
rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
rsync -uav /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
(add the -u option to only update files that are newer on the source or don't exist on the destination)
You can also add -P (same as --partial --progress) to keep partially transferred files in case of a disconnect and show the progress of the transfer. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Dne úterý 7. března 2023 23:11:58 CET, David C. Rankin napsal(a):
On 3/7/23 10:11, Mark Misulich wrote:
rsync -av /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
rsync -uav /home/mark/ lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/lxmark
(add the -u option to only update files that are newer on the source or don't exist on the destination)
or rsync -av /home/mark lxmark@xxx.xxx.x.x:/home/ -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
participants (19)
-
Bernhard Voelker -
Bob Rogers -
Carlos E. R. -
Daniel Bauer -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
David Thorburn-Gundlach -
Felix Miata -
gebser＠mousecar.com -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Jeffrey Taylor -
Liam Proven -
Mark Misulich -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Peter Maffter -
Robert Webb -
Vojtěch Zeisek