[opensuse] true news group?

older
[opensuse] Suse shuts down network...

jdd

18 Feb 2008 18 Feb '08

17:13

I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary. That is creating a true newsgroup for the opensuse list (and at least the OT one) * this is only a matter of server config, it can easily be connected with the mailing-list (my LUG server do so). * I know of gmane, but gmane don't have all the newsgroups capacity * I *don't* speak about forum ala phpbb... * many, if not all the mailing list users have a broadband access (a modem is not suitable with this hudge amount of mails) advantages: * much simpler for hudge volume list like opensuse one. I know of newsgroups accomoding *5000* post *a day* (not to say it's good, but much better than list) * allow post *cancel* * never have to receive twice an answer * it's way better for archive access, at least recent ones, as one can answer to an old post (impossible now on opensuse if the post is deleted locally) * allow fu2 - one can begin a discussion on opensuse with a follow up to (fu2) OT, for example. There so many OT discussion on opensuse mailing list than only this should be a good reason. This mean that all the answers are automagically transmitted not to the original list but to the fu2 list, that is here, for example, OT. * If you don't read the list (vacations), there is nothing to do I personnally have two opensuse suse subscription: mailing list and gmane. I use gmane only for archive use It's possible but not necessary to do he same with the other opensuse-x lists jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

Randall R Schulz

18 Feb 18 Feb

17:33

On Monday 18 February 2008 09:13, jdd wrote:

...

I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

...

I'd support replacing these mailing lists with bulleting boards but not with news. I have become very frustrated with mail distribution lists. Mail software is crappy, users are careless, thoughtless and slothful. Because Internet connectivity and speed have improved a lot in recent years (even here in the U.S.) I feel that on-line bulletin-boards are a far preferable medium for user communities and forums. The quality of Web-based BBS software varies (as with any class of software, of course), but there are good alternatives. Personally, I'm happy with PHP-BB. The one used by JetBrains (formerly IntelliJ, the publishers of the IDEA Java IDE) is pretty good. I'm sure there are others that are adequate, as well. News, on the other hand, is antiquated and dilapidated and really cannot be made into a better system than it is.

...

jdd

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

17:45

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 09:13, jdd wrote:

...
I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

...

I'd support replacing these mailing lists with bulleting boards but not with news.

I have become very frustrated with mail distribution lists. Mail software is crappy, users are careless, thoughtless and slothful.

Because Internet connectivity and speed have improved a lot in recent years (even here in the U.S.) I feel that on-line bulletin-boards are a far preferable medium for user communities and forums.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I really hope you're joking. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

17:53

On Monday 18 February 2008 09:45, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Monday 18 February 2008 09:13, jdd wrote:

...
I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

...

I'd support replacing these mailing lists with bulleting boards but not with news.

I have become very frustrated with mail distribution lists. Mail software is crappy, users are careless, thoughtless and slothful.

Because Internet connectivity and speed have improved a lot in recent years (even here in the U.S.) I feel that on-line bulletin-boards are a far preferable medium for user communities and forums.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. I really hope you're joking.

Joking? About what? Why? I was entirely serious. Why do you find it amusing?

...

/Per Jessen, Zürich

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:06

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

...
I can't tell if you're joking or not. I really hope you're joking.

Joking? About what? Why? I was entirely serious. Why do you find it amusing?

I didn't. That's why I was hoping it was a joke, and that I'd just missed the punchline. Darn, I still can't tell if you're being serious or not. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

18:17

On Monday 18 February 2008 10:06, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
...
I can't tell if you're joking or not. I really hope you're joking.

Joking? About what? Why? I was entirely serious. Why do you find it amusing?

I didn't. That's why I was hoping it was a joke, and that I'd just missed the punchline.

Darn, I still can't tell if you're being serious or not.

How many times do I have to tell you that I was entirely serious in what I wrote? Please stop being cryptic and tell me what is your problem with what I wrote.

...

/Per Jessen, Zürich

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:33

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

How many times do I have to tell you that I was entirely serious in what I wrote?

OK, you were being serious.

...

Please stop being cryptic and tell me what is your problem with what I wrote.

My "problem" is that you were advocating the use of forums and bulletin boards over mailing lists and news servers. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

18:37

On Monday 18 February 2008 10:33, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
How many times do I have to tell you that I was entirely serious in what I wrote?

OK, you were being serious.

...
Please stop being cryptic and tell me what is your problem with what I wrote.

My "problem" is that you were advocating the use of forums and bulletin boards over mailing lists and news servers.

Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

...

/Per Jessen, Zürich

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:41

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006: Web forums: I also absolutely loathe web-forums. Talk about enhancing to the point of failure. Or re-inventing the wheel. What was ever wrong with newsgroups and mailing-lists? The 5 top reasons why I hate web-forums: 1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet. 2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy. 3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen. 4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome. 5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

19:04

On 2008/02/18 19:41 (GMT+0100) Per Jessen apparently typed:

...

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

...

Web forums: I also absolutely loathe web-forums. Talk about enhancing to the point of failure. Or re-inventing the wheel. What was ever wrong with newsgroups and mailing-lists? The 5 top reasons why I hate web-forums:

...

1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet. 2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy. 3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen. 4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome. 5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly.

No doubt about those, but the one that gripes me the most is that almost without exception they're styled with CSS for near-sighted people using giant screens who like reading foot wide line lengths. I have to rewrite the CSS for the forums I'm forced to use just to be able to read anything without a magnifying glass and/or a giant wall projection display. -- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

19:09

Per Jessen a écrit :

...

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

please, don't start again this subject. I happen to have a similar opinion (but for other reasons), but I wont give them here. I *know* many people like forums, and I once voted for opensuse to have one for this single reason, but *I* like news and would like opensuse to have one also. the main problem forums seems to have is the lack of moderator (I don't know if it's right and don't want to discuss it), but I know for sure there is no more necessity of moderator on newsgroups than on mailing lists, the two being the same people for the same work. so, please, think of giving us a newsgroup interface... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

19 Feb 19 Feb

03:04

jdd wrote:

...

Per Jessen a écrit :

...
Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

please, don't start again this subject. I happen to have a similar opinion (but for other reasons), but I wont give them here.

I *know* many people like forums, and I once voted for opensuse to have one for this single reason, but *I* like news and would like opensuse to have one also.

Adding forums would do only ONE thing -- split the community into two camps who don't talk to each other, which means that if I go to one resource to get a problem answered, it's equally likely that the person with the most insight into the answer will never see my question. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Neil

18 Feb 18 Feb

19:38

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

Web forums: I also absolutely loathe web-forums. Talk about enhancing to the point of failure. Or re-inventing the wheel. What was ever wrong with newsgroups and mailing-lists? The 5 top reasons why I hate web-forums:

1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet. They may be inferior in some cases, but they are webbased so they need no separate software. I can read forums at school, in a internet cafe when on holiday, no problem.This is not the case with usenet. 2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy. The layout is a result of the admin's choices, true. But if the choices are good the result will be good. There are even phpbb's who let the user pick the css (drop down menu) and (if the css is build to

...

3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen.

On Feb 18, 2008 7:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote: the full posibilties) therefore the full layout. I do think an admin of a OpenSuSe mailing list would be competent enough to prevent superfluous graphics. true, but does that matter? You can simply open 2 browser windows and place them neatly next to each other on 1 screen. In fact I even filter my mails so different mailing lists have their own folder and are placed there automatically.

...

4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome. No proper threading? What kind of forum are you thinking? I do not know any forums which don't. A message is posted in a reply to a message so it's displayed directly beneath it. 5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly. Don't you log in to check your mail? Most forums are readable without logging in, just sending to it is not allowed.

Do you have more reasons? As always: I can still be convinced if you'd like. One reason for forum instead of usenet: Linux must try to access the main public. The main public does know how to work forums, the do not know how to work usenet. The usenet history would have to be stored and made available by Google search. Neil -- There are two kinds of people: 1. People who start their arrays with 1. 1. People who start their arrays with 0. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

20:27

Neil wrote:

...

On Feb 18, 2008 7:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote: [snip]

...
1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet. They may be inferior in some cases, but they are webbased so they need no separate software. I can read forums at school, in a internet cafe when on holiday, no problem.This is not the case with usenet.

Hi Neil like jdd, I was hoping to avoid this debate. It's only flogging a dead horse. My list of reasons is/was intended as a statement, they're not really open to debate. Nevertheless - Webbased forums need software too - it's called a webbrowser. Usenet is as accessible as a website, both provided you've got the right software.

...

...
2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy. The layout is a result of the admin's choices, true. But if the choices are good the result will be good. There are even phpbb's who let the user pick the css (drop down menu) and (if the css is build to the full posibilties) therefore the full layout.

Let me know how you propose to _guarantee_ that the interface does _not_ change when I change forum.

...

...
3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen. true, but does that matter? You can simply open 2 browser windows and place them neatly next to each other on 1 screen. In fact I even filter my mails so different mailing lists have their own folder and are placed there automatically.

I suspect you're probably young, and perhaps even a little inexperienced. Nothing wrong with that, so am I :-) I track/follow maybe 40 or 50 mailing-lists. Not every day and not equally, but I probably check in on maybe 20-25 public lists every day. All I need to do is switch to knode, and do a "Get all new articles", then I know which groups have updates and which don't. All on ONE screen, not 25. Here's a screenshot from my knode: http://jessen.ch/files/knode-screenshot2.jpeg (49 mailing lists)

...

...
4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome. No proper threading? What kind of forum are you thinking? I do not know any forums which don't. A message is posted in a reply to a message so it's displayed directly beneath it.

Which is not proper threading. You may be showing your inexperience a little here. See the screenshot above for an example of threading.

...

...
5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly. Don't you log in to check your mail? Most forums are readable without logging in, just sending to it is not allowed.

Nope. I login to my workstation, the rest goes by itself. And I can read/post/whaetever after that.

...

Do you have more reasons? As always: I can still be convinced if you'd like.

Not really - like I said, those 5 reasons are from an article I wrote two years ago. They haven't changed.

...

One reason for forum instead of usenet: Linux must try to access the main public. The main public does know how to work forums, the do not know how to work usenet. The usenet history would have to be stored and made available by Google search.

I have absolutely no problem with the webforum as an _interface_ only. Make the core engine a news server with gated webfora and mailinglists, and I'll be perfectly happy. However, right now, most if not all webfora believe they are alone in the universe, and behave as such. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:33

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-02-18 at 20:38 +0100, Neil wrote: ...

...

Do you have more reasons? As always: I can still be convinced if you'd like.

- A permanent network connection is needed for a forum, but news can work without it. - The News can be read in text mode. A forum can't. - A forum requires more cpu and resources both at the server and at the client.

...

One reason for forum instead of usenet: Linux must try to access the main public. The main public does know how to work forums, the do not know how to work usenet. The usenet history would have to be stored and made available by Google search.

The thing is not to have only one method, but to have several. For your info, I learnt how to use News years earlier than forums, and I still find News easier to configure and use. Even easier than email. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHueuVtTMYHG2NR9URAi0+AJ4kmXUGB6Yy1kE7dHiJMVW65Ot0DwCgj6jK FDTRJaAlqdmjPdmfeXOGj4E= =KgNZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic

19 Feb 19 Feb

11:00

On Monday 18 February 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Monday 2008-02-18 at 20:38 +0100, Neil wrote:

...

...
Do you have more reasons? As always: I can still be convinced if you'd like.

- A permanent network connection is needed for a forum, but news can work without it.

- The News can be read in text mode. A forum can't.

- A forum requires more cpu and resources both at the server and at the client.

...
One reason for forum instead of usenet: Linux must try to access the main public. The main public does know how to work forums, the do not know how to work usenet. The usenet history would have to be stored and made available by Google search.

The thing is not to have only one method, but to have several. For your info, I learnt how to use News years earlier than forums, and I still find News easier to configure and use. Even easier than email.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I think you have hit the problem on the head there Carlos TEXT BASED the vast majority of people these days seem to get very wet nappies as soon as someone says text based or CLI Ahhhhhhh got to have a gui with a connected rat to squirm all over it .. Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

20 Feb 20 Feb

01:36

peter nikolic wrote:
> On Monday 18 February 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> The Monday 2008-02-18 at 20:38 +0100, Neil wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Do you have more reasons? As always: I can still be convinced if you'd
>>> like.
>>   - A permanent network connection is needed for a forum, but news can work
>>     without it.
>>
>>   - The News can be read in text mode. A forum can't.
>>
>>   - A forum requires more cpu and resources both at the server and at the
>>     client.
>>
>>> One reason for forum instead of usenet: Linux must try to access the
>>> main public. The main public does know how to work forums, the do not
>>> know how to work usenet. The usenet history would have to be stored
>>> and made available by Google search.
>> The thing is not to have only one method, but to have several. For your
>> info, I learnt how to use News years earlier than forums, and I still find
>> News easier to configure and use. Even easier than email.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>         Carlos E. R.
> 
> I think you have hit the problem on the head there Carlos      TEXT BASED  the 
> vast majority of people these days seem to get very wet nappies as soon as 
> someone says text based or CLI  Ahhhhhhh   got to have a gui with a connected 
> rat to squirm all over it ..

And to those people...I truly don't care if they cut themselves
out of the conversation or not.


-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org
For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

18 Feb 18 Feb

20:33

Neil wrote: Neil, please put some blank lines before and after your text so as to visually separate it from the text of the message which you are replying to. Your way (no blank lines) makes things unnecessarily difficult for everyone else to read.

...

On Feb 18, 2008 7:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

Web forums: I also absolutely loathe web-forums. Talk about enhancing to the point of failure. Or re-inventing the wheel. What was ever wrong with newsgroups and mailing-lists? The 5 top reasons why I hate web-forums:

1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet.

...

They may be inferior in some cases, but they are webbased so they need no separate software. I can read forums at school, in a internet cafe when on holiday, no problem.This is not the case with usenet.

Usenet software is actually MORE ubiquitous than Browser software. NNTP (Network News Transport Protocol) is just a slight modification of SMTP, and news-readers are typically only a few dozen kilobytes in size, and present on machines which run without a GUI.

...

...
2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy.

Not to mention having to reload the ENTIRE DAMNED WEB-PAGE just to see one new message. And you'll never see it if you don't go back to that thread and specifically look for it -- so if someone adds a comment to a thread that hasn't been visited in a week, chances are, nobody will read it.

...

The layout is a result of the admin's choices, true. But if the choices are good the result will be good. There are even phpbb's who let the user pick the css (drop down menu) and (if the css is build to the full posibilties) therefore the full layout. I do think an admin of a OpenSuSe mailing list would be competent enough to prevent superfluous graphics.

...

...
3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen.

...

true, but does that matter?

Of course it matters -- it HINDERS COMMUNICATION!

...

You can simply open 2 browser

windows and

...

place them neatly next to each other on 1 screen. In fact I even

Why would I want to do that?

...

filter my mails so different mailing lists have their own folder and are placed there automatically.

But even then, in most mail programs, you can SEE when new mail is routed into each of those folders, which makes it possible to monitor a dozen or more mailing lists with ease.

...

...
4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome.

...

No proper threading? What kind of forum are you thinking? I do not know any forums which don't. A message is posted in a reply to a message so it's displayed directly beneath it.

They're all over the net. I can't believe that you've never seen any of these atrocities.

...

...
5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly. Don't you log in to check your mail? Most forums are readable without logging in, just sending to it is not allowed.

And *WHY* do I want to login to dozens of different web sites just to write a reply to postings?

...

...
Do you have more reasons? As always: I can still be convinced if you'd like.

those are more than sufficient. Your one argument of half-merit (software) is solved with a one-time investment of the time needed to install a news reader (that's assuming that your GUI-based mail reader doesn't already have a news-reader in it...which most do). In contrast, forums require constant overhead delays of several seconds, lots of pointless (and large) HTML page loads, even without stupid graphics and icons.

...

One reason for forum instead of usenet: Linux must try to access the main public. The main public does know how to work forums, the do not know how to work usenet. The usenet history would have to be stored and made available by Google search.

It already is. The whole thing is archived going back to the late 1980's. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Theo v. Werkhoven

21:36

Mon, 18 Feb 2008, by per@computer.org:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

Web forums: I also absolutely loathe web-forums. Talk about enhancing to the point of failure. Or re-inventing the wheel. What was ever wrong with newsgroups and mailing-lists? The 5 top reasons why I hate web-forums:

1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet. 2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy. 3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen. 4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome. 5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly.

6. They require the constant and most obnoxious usage of a mouse, back and forth through several painly slow pages to read, write and set "topic" as read (delete not even possible of course). If you try to follow a busy list like this on a forum, you'll want to kill yourself after one evening. 7. Any discussion that is left un-replied for a short time will immediatly be pushed way down several pages, so after the weekend, all previous discussion have "disappeared". 8. Now way to use Score (kill) files to get rid of the Fred Millers etc. 9. They're a single source of failure, unlike news or even mail servers. And because they run on single machines, beyond a certain amount of simultaneously logged in users, they become dead slow and unmanagable. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 26N , 4 29 47E. + ICQ: 277217131 SUSE 10.3 + Jabber: muadib@jabber.xs4all.nl Kernel 2.6.22 + See headers for PGP/GPG info. Claimer: any email I receive will become my property. Disclaimers do not apply. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bjørn Lie

19 Feb 19 Feb

00:13

http://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php nntp://forums.novell.com/ Has 8 openSUSE related groups/sections. Webforum for those that want that, and News (nntp) for us "old-timers" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

02:30

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Here's my list of objections from an article I wrote in Jan2006:

Web forums: I also absolutely loathe web-forums. Talk about enhancing to the point of failure. Or re-inventing the wheel. What was ever wrong with newsgroups and mailing-lists? The 5 top reasons why I hate web-forums:

1. They are essentially an inferior and utterly superfluous re-invention of existing internet communication means - newsgroups aka usenet. 2. They're web-based - the interface changes just about every time you change forum. Add to that the entirely superfluous graphics and icons and what have you, and they become slow and unwieldy.

In addition 2a-They're web-based. Which means that the only way to keep up with a specific thread is to continually go to a specific URL to check for new messages on a particular thread. I really don't want to have to check 30 different URL's to keep up on 30 different threads. 2b -- they're web-based...which means they are SLOOOOOOOOOW. Instead of jumping from message to message which has been pre-loaded onto my hard drive, I have to wait for some slow-ass network connection (yes, i have broad band, but my disk drive delivers a message in milliseconds, whereas web-forum pages typically take 5-15 seconds (or more, depending on overall traffic over the network "cloud" of routers") 2c -- they're web-based...which means that messages which amount to only a few kilobytes of message are typically accompanied by dozens to hundreds of kilobytes of pure cruft.

...

3. Following multiple separate forums can't be done on one screen. 4. There is no proper threading in forums and selective quoting is at best cumbersome. 5. They usually require that you login. Downright silly.

YUP. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

07:56

Aaron Kulkis a écrit :

...

In addition 2a-They're web-based.

Which means that the only way to keep up with a specific thread is to continually go to a specific URL to check for new messages on a particular thread

no, you can be warned by mail... but the main reason there are so many is that anybody can install one on shared hosting for free, it's not the case for news server, but this is not relevant here openSUSE can have froums *and* news groups jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

08:07

jdd wrote:

...

but the main reason there are so many is that anybody can install one on shared hosting for free, it's not the case for news server, but this is not relevant here

openSUSE can have froums *and* news groups

Bjørn Lie said it already - openSUSE has forums in many places, both hosted by Novell and by third-parties. The community is unfortunately already split in many ways (by language and forum vs. mailinglist). /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

20 Feb 20 Feb

00:57

jdd wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis a écrit :

...
In addition 2a-They're web-based.

Which means that the only way to keep up with a specific thread is to continually go to a specific URL to check for new messages on a particular thread

no, you can be warned by mail...

Then just have a damend mailing list with web-archives!

...

but the main reason there are so many is that anybody can install one on shared hosting for free, it's not the case for news server, but this is not relevant here

So can Majordomo, and nearly every other mailing-list manager/server out there, and also just like an NNTP server...so, your point was what, exactly? I'm still not seeing any ACTUAL advantage to bandwidth-hogging dispay-with-delay HTML as the primary interface.

...

openSUSE can have froums *and* news groups

jdd

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

08:53

Aaron Kulkis a écrit :

...

...
but the main reason there are so many is that anybody can install one on shared hosting for free, it's not the case for news server, but this is not relevant here

So can Majordomo, and nearly every other mailing-list manager/server out there, and also just like an NNTP server...so, your point was what, exactly?

no. mailing/news servers are notr allowed on most free web shared hosting jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

19 Feb 19 Feb

01:55

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 10:33, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
How many times do I have to tell you that I was entirely serious in what I wrote? OK, you were being serious.

...
Please stop being cryptic and tell me what is your problem with what I wrote. My "problem" is that you were advocating the use of forums and bulletin boards over mailing lists and news servers.

Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Other than being the most difficult and clumsy way for a group to communicate with each other over the internet??? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lew Wolfgang

04:35

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 10:33, Per Jessen wrote:

...
My "problem" is that you were advocating the use of forums and bulletin boards over mailing lists and news servers.

Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Lots of anti-web form examples have been posted, and I agree with them. But the biggest objection to forums I have is that they are basically a "pull" process. Mailing lists are closer to a "push". I don't have the time to graze for the information I need, I'd rather it appear at my doorstop, so to speak. USENET, while being a "pull", allows much better access to data, in my opinion. I was able to find the first mention of my name in comp.sys.amiga on Nov 14, 1986. My first posting was on Dec 26, 1990 on rec.railroad. (thanks Google) Thunderbird works quite well for both newsgroups and email lists. Newsgroups, being a distributed technology, is quite robust in the face of network damage (censorship) too. Regards, Lew Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

05:00

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Monday 18 February 2008 10:33, Per Jessen wrote:

...
My "problem" is that you were advocating the use of forums and bulletin boards over mailing lists and news servers. Yes. And your problem with that is what? Do you have a specific objection, or are you going to continue to feign incredulity?

Lots of anti-web form examples have been posted, and I agree with them. But the biggest objection to forums I have is that they are basically a "pull" process. Mailing lists are closer to a "push". I don't have the time to graze for the information I need, I'd rather it appear at my doorstop, so to speak.

That summarizes it perfectly. Discussions are best facilitated by "push" processes. Most "Pull" processes(*) hinder discussion, and at the same time, web-forums encourage drive-by vandalism. Every yahoogroups group works dual-mode (yahoo provides both mailing list and web-forum mode access for every group), and they attract a lot of spamming unless there is heavy moderation. Some USENET newsgroups attract a lot of spam, but it tends to be topic-dependant...although i would say that USENET (not NNTP, but the framework which transmits NNTP) needs to be re-vamped. USENET was developed in the early 1980's, at a time when spam was not a problem -- people committing bad behavior were immediately identifiable, and and someone in a position of authority(**) above them notified with little difficulty. (*) (Usenet being an exception because of its "one-channel supplies all newsgroups" architecture) (**) (university superior, government superior, or in the private sector, the person's supervisor at whatever defence contractor the miscreant worked for)

...

USENET, while being a "pull", allows much better access to data, in my opinion. I was able to find the first mention of my name

I would say that USENET is just as much "push" as e-mail. You log into an e-mail or USENET server, and grab all the e-mail or USENET messages from all sources which was delivered to it (or in the groups you are subscribed to for USENET), and it all comes to your hard disk at once, not one message, or a page of messages at a time, with all of the web-induced delays ("just in time" delivery, 1000%+ overhead of HTML crap compared to the size of the messages you actually want to read, etc).

...

in comp.sys.amiga on Nov 14, 1986. My first posting was on Dec 26, 1990 on rec.railroad. (thanks Google) Thunderbird works quite well for both newsgroups and email lists. Newsgroups, being a distributed technology, is quite robust in the face of network damage (censorship) too.

Regards, Lew Wolfgang

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

01:53

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 09:45, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Monday 18 February 2008 09:13, jdd wrote:

...
I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

... I'd support replacing these mailing lists with bulleting boards but not with news.

I have become very frustrated with mail distribution lists. Mail software is crappy, users are careless, thoughtless and slothful.

Because Internet connectivity and speed have improved a lot in recent years (even here in the U.S.) I feel that on-line bulletin-boards are a far preferable medium for user communities and forums. I can't tell if you're joking or not. I really hope you're joking.

Joking? About what? Why?

I was entirely serious.

Why do you find it amusing?

I've yet to see a web-based forum where it was convenient to track multiple threads over a span of days or weeks. Frankly, it's too much work -- I have to remember to go check on specific threads... With e-mail list or newsgroups, stuff just shows up in my mailbox (hey...now THERE's an IDEA...LET THE COMPUTER DO THE MUNDANE WORK LIKE COLLECTING ALL THE MESSAGES WHILE I MAKE THE DECISION OF picking which individual messages I want to read....) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

04:39

On Monday 18 February 2008 17:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

I've yet to see a web-based forum where it was convenient to track multiple threads over a span of days or weeks.

You have got to be kidding! You, of all people, who swoop in once a day ignoring all the posts older than a few hours, submitting posts as if you've got all the answers when in fact they've all been given already, are hardly one to issue _this_ criticism!

...

Frankly, it's too much work -- I have to remember to go check on specific threads...

Yes. Excessive cognitive burden for your war-addled brain. But that's _your_ problem. Stop making it ours. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic

10:51

On Tuesday 19 February 2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 17:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...
...

I've yet to see a web-based forum where it was convenient to track multiple threads over a span of days or weeks.

You have got to be kidding! You, of all people, who swoop in once a day ignoring all the posts older than a few hours, submitting posts as if you've got all the answers when in fact they've all been given already, are hardly one to issue _this_ criticism!

...
Frankly, it's too much work -- I have to remember to go check on specific threads...

Yes. Excessive cognitive burden for your war-addled brain. But that's _your_ problem. Stop making it ours.

Randall Schulz

Why nis it that people keep insisting on trying to make the WEB BROWSER do every darn thing it is a WEB BROWSER not a news reader or a mail client or a file manager or any of the other things they seem to get burdened with if it aint http it aint for a browser and if mail and news is trying to use http then delete the offending senders system .. Web mail one of the biggest scourges on the internet hotly followed by M$ Corp . Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Neil

15:09

On Feb 19, 2008 11:51 AM, peter nikolic wrote:

...

On Tuesday 19 February 2008, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Monday 18 February 2008 17:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...
...

I've yet to see a web-based forum where it was convenient to track multiple threads over a span of days or weeks.

You have got to be kidding! You, of all people, who swoop in once a day ignoring all the posts older than a few hours, submitting posts as if you've got all the answers when in fact they've all been given already, are hardly one to issue _this_ criticism!

...
Frankly, it's too much work -- I have to remember to go check on specific threads...

Yes. Excessive cognitive burden for your war-addled brain. But that's _your_ problem. Stop making it ours.

Randall Schulz

Why nis it that people keep insisting on trying to make the WEB BROWSER do every darn thing it is a WEB BROWSER not a news reader or a mail client or a file manager or any of the other things they seem to get burdened with if it aint http it aint for a browser and if mail and news is trying to use http then delete the offending senders system ..

Web mail one of the biggest scourges on the internet hotly followed by M$ Corp .

Well for me it's webmail or Outlook to look mail at school, so my choice is clear: webmail is convenient for me, it allows me to check my mail everywhere in the gui I like. I must say I stopped using Pop3 mail when I had some clashes with outlook and I never looked back (or forward to a decent mail program). Neil -- There are two kinds of people: 1. People who start their arrays with 1. 1. People who start their arrays with 0. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

16:39

On Tuesday 19 February 2008 02:51, peter nikolic wrote:

...

...

Why is it that people keep insisting on trying to make the WEB BROWSER do every darn thing it is a WEB BROWSER not a news reader or a mail client or a file manager or any of the other things they seem to get burdened with if it aint http it aint for a browser and if mail and news is trying to use http then delete the offending senders system ..

Whether you like it or not, the browser is becoming an application deployment platform. There are various reasons for this, most of them good. The downside is that as an application deployment platform, browsers are still rather impoverished. It is only because the advantages of using them in this way are so great that so many people are working so hard to make them suitable for this purpose and to exploit them in the best way possible. And by and large, things are getting a lot better. With diligence and arduous work, an ever-expanding range of applications can be handled well in the browser. Messaging is certainly one of them. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18 Feb 18 Feb

17:58

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-02-18 at 09:33 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

News, on the other hand, is antiquated and dilapidated and really cannot be made into a better system than it is.

Of course it can. You can, for instance, require authentication for read and or write, thus controlling it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHucc6tTMYHG2NR9URAnmLAJ9Ee+SqMl8WXf0Bor86B7KDXgoEPQCcCkt2 5R/InE0SBWsxU5oa2egjK/Y= =xrQk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

17:36

jdd wrote:

...

I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

That is creating a true newsgroup for the opensuse list (and at least the OT one)

* this is only a matter of server config, it can easily be connected with the mailing-list (my LUG server do so).

I think the main issue is - who is the master? I run a local newsserver for most of my mailing-list subscriptions (sort of my private gmane), but the newsserver is slaved to the mailing-list. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

17:56

Per Jessen a écrit :

...

I think the main issue is - who is the master? I run a local newsserver for most of my mailing-list subscriptions (sort of my private gmane), but the newsserver is slaved to the mailing-list.

do you mean you run a newsserver only for your own use? How do you manage this (coupling the opensuse mailing list with your own news server)? the mailing list of my lug was setup several years ago, and never touched... the actual admin (the one that did the setup) is still here and with admin rights, but never touch the computer and me and the other present admin could not install it again without extensive learning :-) so it's a oneshot system, once installed, no more problems (if you want see news.culte.org) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:30

jdd wrote:

...

Per Jessen a écrit :

...
I think the main issue is - who is the master? I run a local newsserver for most of my mailing-list subscriptions (sort of my private gmane), but the newsserver is slaved to the mailing-list.

do you mean you run a newsserver only for your own use? How do you manage this (coupling the opensuse mailing list with your own news server)?

Yes, that's exactly what I do. Here is the process: I subscribe <my list-address> to the <mailing-list>. For this list <mylistaddress> is "opensuse@<mylistdomain>". When I receive a mail for "opensuse@<mylistdomain>", I redirect it to "<locallistname>@news.local>". With this the email is sent to my lmtp2nntp daemon and finally my innd. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Druid

17:43

...

That is creating a true newsgroup for the opensuse list (and at least the OT one)

I think its a wonderful idea. When do you start implementing it? Best regards Marcio Ferreira --- Druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:44

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-02-18 at 18:13 +0100, jdd wrote: ...

...

* many, if not all the mailing list users have a broadband access (a modem is not suitable with this hudge amount of mails)

Yes, a modem is viable too. I know because I did. The trick is to use an off-line fetcher/responder, like "leafnode". You download the bunch of new messages, and disconnect. You write the answers while off line, then reconnect to send. Thunderbird can work in this way, too. For users with permanent connection, but metered, it is good as well, because they can download only the headers, then the contents of only those messages they are interested in. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHucP1tTMYHG2NR9URAm39AJoCNRycYoxFikpHe1I2rMlpa1/brQCeOIQX HJ7Xj1OCScxehbTK1GAOICg= =vup+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

19 Feb 19 Feb

01:36

On Monday 18 February 2008 11:13:22 am jdd wrote:

...

I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

That is creating a true newsgroup for the opensuse list (and at least the OT one)

* this is only a matter of server config, it can easily be connected with the mailing-list (my LUG server do so).

* I know of gmane, but gmane don't have all the newsgroups capacity

* I *don't* speak about forum ala phpbb...

* many, if not all the mailing list users have a broadband access (a modem is not suitable with this hudge amount of mails)

advantages: * much simpler for hudge volume list like opensuse one. I know of newsgroups accomoding *5000* post *a day* (not to say it's good, but much better than list)

* allow post *cancel*

* never have to receive twice an answer

* it's way better for archive access, at least recent ones, as one can answer to an old post (impossible now on opensuse if the post is deleted locally)

* allow fu2 - one can begin a discussion on opensuse with a follow up to (fu2) OT, for example. There so many OT discussion on opensuse mailing list than only this should be a good reason. This mean that all the answers are automagically transmitted not to the original list but to the fu2 list, that is here, for example, OT.

* If you don't read the list (vacations), there is nothing to do

I personnally have two opensuse suse subscription: mailing list and gmane. I use gmane only for archive use

It's possible but not necessary to do he same with the other opensuse-x lists ...

Aaron Kulkis

01:48

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 11:13:22 am jdd wrote:

...
I know this is an already discussed story, but this one was *not* discused in deep and I think it's more and more necessary.

That is creating a true newsgroup for the opensuse list (and at least the OT one)

* this is only a matter of server config, it can easily be connected with the mailing-list (my LUG server do so).

<snip happens>

...

...
It's possible but not necessary to do he same with the other opensuse-x lists ...

We have it. Though, many on this list will have hard time as formus are moderated and anything not technical is deleted and user warned. I have seen both.

Sincerely better chance for new users to get help is any of below forums than this list. There is no so many helpers, but there is no OT noise too.

This is enhaced list based on Bjørn Lie post.

http://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/ http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/development-build/ http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/general-applications/ http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/gnome/ http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/Install-Configure-Administr... http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/KDE http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/Networking http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/Printing http://forums.novell.com/opensuse-support-forums/Updates-Patches

http://forums.novell.com/faq.php

nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

He's talking about an NNTP newsgroup, not web forums. Web-forums are an obstacle to communication. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

05:34

On Monday 18 February 2008 07:48:37 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...
nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

He's talking about an NNTP newsgroup, not web forums.

Hmm ... what is nntp://forums.novell.com/ and each and every of web forums in list has nntp interface.

...

Web-forums are an obstacle to communication.

For you Aaron is obstacle. Sometimes you miss IMHO, ie. what is good for your use case is not the best in every case. People that don't follow 50 mail and news groups have no problem with page refresh, have no problem to find the place where they asked the question. New users are actually really lucky to have some form of communication that: - need no setup besides login that they are already familiar with, - has no 200 messages a day, where noise is the largest part of them - has strict moderators with ability to delete OT messages keeping forums clean. You can go and see for yourself using your preferred nntp client. The server is support-forums.novell.com. BTW, this topic belongs to opensuse-project@opensuse.org . -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

05:48

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 07:48:37 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...
...
nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp He's talking about an NNTP newsgroup, not web forums.

Hmm ... what is nntp://forums.novell.com/ and each and every of web forums in list has nntp interface.

oops. didn't notice the nntp://

...

...
Web-forums are an obstacle to communication.

For you Aaron is obstacle. Sometimes you miss IMHO, ie. what is good for your use case is not the best in every case.

People that don't follow 50 mail and news groups have no problem with page refresh,

I wouldn't say so. With web-forum, it's pretty much impossible to follow all of the traffic on even ONE forum if it had as many messages as this mail list does. So the argument that web-forum users don't follow 50 different forums kinds of makes my point.. .part of the reason that they don't is because THEY CAN'T.

...

have no problem to find the place where they asked the question.

That's totally fine for people with one, and only one interest.

...

New users are actually really lucky to have some form of communication that: - need no setup besides login that they are already familiar with,

Who doesn't use E-mail these days? ARE you NOT already familiar with your own email login?

...

- has no 200 messages a day, where noise is the largest part of them

That's because web-forums are so clumsy, it's difficult to get message traffic that high. Or alternatively, you can look at the responses to an Ann Coulter column, which can have several hundred messages in a single day, and the flood is so un-manageable that it's pretty much impossible for ANY coherent conversation to develop ... so the whole thing devolves into nothing more than a bulletin board (not an electronic BBS...I mean a large rectangle of cork hung on the wall) with whole bunch of "hit and run" messages on it. There's no conversation because as message rates climb, two-way conversation becomes IMPOSSIBLE.

...

- has strict moderators with ability to delete OT messages keeping forums clean.

Are you claiming that this is unavailable on mail lists and moderated newsgroups?

...

You can go and see for yourself using your preferred nntp client. The server is support-forums.novell.com.

Cool. So what percentage of the usage is from the web, and what percentage of usage is via NNTP? I'm not against a dual-access method. If somone wants to hinder themselves by opting for the web-forum (because they're too lazy to invest 3 minutes to get NNTP access) -- then that's their problem. But anyone who wants to set up a USEFUL high-bandwidth multi-way communication channel will have at best, limited success if they choose to rely exclusively on the web-forum format.

...

BTW, this topic belongs to opensuse-project@opensuse.org .

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

08:16

Rajko M. a écrit :

...

...
...
nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

I could subscribe, but can't get posts and I don't see why in the faq. any clue? I get the forums list, have it in my seamonkey news reader and have the subscribed forums list as any other news server (I have many) but when I clic on a forum name I'm asked "do you want to subscribe" and if I say "yes", the answer is "no response from the server" jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

20 Feb 20 Feb

00:18

On Tuesday 19 February 2008 02:16:08 am jdd wrote:

...

Rajko M. a écrit :

...
...
...
nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

I could subscribe, but can't get posts and I don't see why in the faq. any clue?

I get the forums list, have it in my seamonkey news reader and have the subscribed forums list as any other news server (I have many)

but when I clic on a forum name I'm asked "do you want to subscribe" and if I say "yes", the answer is "no response from the server"

Have you tried 'support-forums.novell.com' as server? -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

08:51

Rajko M. a écrit :

...

Have you tried 'support-forums.novell.com' as server?

no, but it now works as it should, don't know what the problem was (I removed the server and subscribed again) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19 Feb 19 Feb

08:16

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Monday 18 February 2008 07:48:37 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...
...
nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

He's talking about an NNTP newsgroup, not web forums.

Hmm ... what is nntp://forums.novell.com/ and each and every of web forums in list has nntp interface.

Interesting. I think I came across that some time ago, and then promptly forgot about it again. Well, jdd - there's your newsgroup, except this list isn't available. (AFAICT) However, it looks like Novell has actually got it working exactly the way it should be. The news-server is the core with webfora and mailinglists bidirectionally gated. Perfect. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Plater

09:20

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Rajko M. wrote:

...
On Monday 18 February 2008 07:48:37 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...
...
nntp://forums.novell.com/ http://forums.novell.com/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

He's talking about an NNTP newsgroup, not web forums.

Hmm ... what is nntp://forums.novell.com/ and each and every of web forums in list has nntp interface.

Interesting. I think I came across that some time ago, and then promptly forgot about it again. Well, jdd - there's your newsgroup, except this list isn't available. (AFAICT)

However, it looks like Novell has actually got it working exactly the way it should be. The news-server is the core with webfora and mailinglists bidirectionally gated. Perfect.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

I successfully subscribed using Thunderbird but whenever I try to read a message it hangs on downloading the body. Thank goodness I don't have to use it. Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

09:29

Dave Plater wrote:

...

I successfully subscribed using Thunderbird but whenever I try to read a message it hangs on downloading the body. Thank goodness I don't have to use it.

I used knode and it's working just fine. I just read a message in opensuse.org.suse-linux.support.networking /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

09:49

Per Jessen a écrit :

...

I used knode and it's working just fine.

true, it works with knode... thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Plater

10:42

jdd wrote:

...

Per Jessen a �crit :

...
I used knode and it's working just fine.

true, it works with knode...

thanks jdd

I suppose I just found a TB bug, aargh! Maybe I should just keep quiet and not go through all the motions of reporting. KNode works well, its on kde 3.5.8 as well. Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

20 Feb 20 Feb

05:28

On Tuesday 19 February 2008 04:42:43 am Dave Plater wrote:

...

jdd wrote:

...
Per Jessen a �crit :

...
I used knode and it's working just fine.

true, it works with knode...

thanks jdd

I suppose I just found a TB bug, aargh! Maybe I should just keep quiet and not go through all the motions of reporting. KNode works well, its on kde 3.5.8 as well. Dave

Probably not. It could be temporary server problem. I was using Thunderbird before I found KNode and it worked fine. The best thing is that subscribe there means nothing more than select group to read. There is no mails comming even if you don't read them. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

19 Feb 19 Feb

13:45

* jdd [02-19-08 04:51]:

...

true, it works with knode...

and pan and slrn and nntp://.... in konqueror -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

14:22

Patrick Shanahan a écrit :

...

* jdd [02-19-08 04:51]:

...
true, it works with knode...

and pan and slrn and nntp://.... in konqueror

and now I can have it in seamonkey... so * maybe the novell server had a moment problem * I did some missetup (but what can allow subscribing and don't allow fetching posts??) anyway all works now as it should. thanks dd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

20 Feb 20 Feb

05:21

On Tuesday 19 February 2008 08:22:42 am jdd wrote:

...

Patrick Shanahan a écrit :

...
* jdd [02-19-08 04:51]:

...
true, it works with knode...

and pan and slrn and nntp://.... in konqueror

Well, in Konqueror it requires reader anyway.

...

and now I can have it in seamonkey... so

* maybe the novell server had a moment problem * I did some missetup (but what can allow subscribing and don't allow fetching posts??)

anyway all works now as it should.

thanks

Last few days it was slow to respond when fetching a messages, but usually it is fast. What I like there is that it is one server and messages are instantly there, unlike normal usenet, which makes possible to exchange ideas very fast, similar to IRC, or slow like email. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

5916

Age (days ago)

5918

Last active (days ago)

List overview

Download

54 comments

16 participants

participants (16)

Aaron Kulkis
Bjørn Lie
Carlos E. R.
Dave Plater
Dave Plater
Druid
Felix Miata
jdd
Lew Wolfgang
Neil
Patrick Shanahan
Per Jessen
peter nikolic
Rajko M.
Randall R Schulz
Theo v. Werkhoven