On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 14:59 +0100, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

my reply should have been in English:

On Nov 27 14:56 Johannes Meixner wrote (shortened):

...

On Nov 27 10:19 Roger Oberholtzer wrote (shortened):

...

Anyone know the status of the Novell IPrint Client and Netware Clients for openSUSE? The IPrint client does seem to work ok. But it is never included with openSUSE.

Da openSUSE nur freie Software enthält, ist iPrint nicht dabei. - Der iPrint Server ist proprietär und kostenpflichtig. - Der iPrint Client ist proprietär und fast so "frei" wie der Adobe Reader.

Because openSUSE provides free software, iPrint is not included. - The iPrint server is proprietary and you must pay for it. - The iPrint client is proprietary and almost as "free" as the Adobe Reader.

I guess it does not have to be included any more than other things like nvidia drivers or MS fonts are. I am very flexible about the mechanism for obtaining this. I am just confused about the non-availability - there is nothing to be obtained. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 17:26 -0500, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 16:04 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

I am just confused about the non-availability - there is nothing to be obtained.

I think you seem to miss the point that OpenSuse (The one for the community not the enterprise), while I'm sure some Novell people work on it, is not supported by Novell. No guarantees made by Novell for opensuse. Why do you expect Novell to make software that is not free work on a free unsupported platform?

openSUSE is not supported by Novell?

Why are you running opensuse in an enterprise any way?

You miss the point. I am willing to buy the package for openSUSE. Our company already has a site license for all Novell products. The issue is not cost. My reasoning: I see Novell actions generally as trying to remove the obstacles to using Linux as apposed to Windows. The long term benefits of a larger user base outweigh the immediate costs of making these improvements. The main point: This is not the case when it comes to, say, the Netware client. I can install Windows, for which Novell gets ZIP cash. I can then go to Novell's site and download the Netware client for free. In the total transaction, Novell gets nothing. Except a user who can easily access a Netware server - which is a good thing for Novell as they want to sell Netware servers and servers need clients. I can also choose to install openSUSE, for which Novell also gets ZIP cash (exactly the same as Windows). However, I CANNOT go to Novell's site and download the Netware client for free OR even for a cost! But we now have a user who cannot easily access a Netware server - which is a bad thing for Novell as there is no client looking for a Novell server. And, funny enough, as a consequence of other Novell actions, this user CAN access MS servers - meaning more MS server clients, but lost potential of Novell server clients. Message from Novell: if you want to run a Novell client, install Windows, not openSUSE. This is my confusion. Surely Novell have some sort of an investment in getting people to adopt openSUSE over having them install Windows. openSUSE could be seen as an enabler Linux. After that works, people may pay for the stronger Linux. Windows users are a fact of life and there are many of them. So Novell must provide the client. But why don't they do the same for openSUSE?

Why are you running opensuse in an enterprise any way?

It is not used at the enterprise level. I use it on my desktop at work. Of course, if it worked well for me there, there are 8000 other desktops in this Novell-using company, some of which could consider using Linux. Our fluid dynamics guys in Denmark just announced that they are very happy with OpenFLOW and will be setting up some Linux machines in a cluster to run it. They currently run it in a vmware linux guest that is hosted on Windows. The interest is there. But it has to work in a Novell environment as well as a Windows environment. And, yes, it would probably be the Enterprise version that Novell supplies as they would want the stability, and are already pro-Novell. But this is an engineering consulting firm. Engineers like to play. openSUSE better satisfies that for some. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about large city with all constructions finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Nov 27 16:04 Roger Oberholtzer wrote (shortened):

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 14:59 +0100, Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

...

On Nov 27 10:19 Roger Oberholtzer wrote (shortened):

...

Anyone know the status of the Novell IPrint Client and Netware Clients for openSUSE? The IPrint client does seem to work ok. But it is never included with openSUSE.

Because openSUSE provides free software, iPrint is not included. - The iPrint server is proprietary and you must pay for it. - The iPrint client is proprietary and almost as "free" as the Adobe Reader.

I guess it does not have to be included any more than other things like nvidia drivers or MS fonts are. I am very flexible about the mechanism for obtaining this. I am just confused about the non-availability - there is nothing to be obtained.

I used in Google this search string novell iPrint client RPM site:novell.com clicked on the first match http://www.novell.com/documentation/oes/iprint_nw/index.html?page=/documenta... and found there the exact RPM names novell-iprint-xclient-sh-version.i586.rpm novell-iprint-xclient-sl-version.i586.rpm and the explanation ------------------------------------------------------ You can download and install the iPrint Client from the iPrint Printer List Web page that resides on the server where the Print Manager is loaded. ------------------------------------------------------ I.e. when you need the iPrint Client, there must be somewhere also an iPrint server (otherwise you don't need an iPrint Client) and then you can download and install the iPrint Client from the iPrint server (more precisely from where the Print Manager is loaded). If the server where the Print Manager is loaded does not provide you an appropriate iPrint Client RPM (e.g. only outdated stuff but nothing for openSUSE 11.0 or for whatever other current Linux distributions), you must ask the admin of the server where the Print Manager is loaded. What a nonsense that users should download and install software form whatever other server before they can get access to a service on such another server. Obviously those users must have unlimited trust in those unknown software form an unknown other server because installing a RPM must be done as root so that those unknown software form an unknown other server has unlimited permissions on the users own system. Welcome to the nice world of proprietary software ;-) When you do not need printing to secure iPrint queues (i.e. queues where an authentication dialog is needed) you may not need the iPrint Client at all because a non-secure queue on an iPrint server should be accessible via plain IPP protocol so that all you need to know is the exact IPP DeviceURI and the printer model to set up a usual local CUPS queue on the client system with a matching driver for the printer model. Basically - as far as I know - a non-secure queue on an iPrint server behaves like a network printer which is accessible via IPP protocol, see http://www.cups.org/documentation.php/doc-1.4/network.html "Internet Printing Protocol (IPP)" Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Nov 28 10:10 Roger Oberholtzer wrote (shortened):

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 09:30 +0100, Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

When you do not need printing to secure iPrint queues (i.e. queues where an authentication dialog is needed) you may not need the iPrint Client at all because a non-secure queue on an iPrint server should be accessible via plain IPP protocol so that all you need to know is the exact IPP DeviceURI and the printer model to set up a usual local CUPS queue on the client system with a matching driver for the printer model. Basically - as far as I know - a non-secure queue on an iPrint server behaves like a network printer which is accessible via IPP protocol, see http://www.cups.org/documentation.php/doc-1.4/network.html "Internet Printing Protocol (IPP)"

I have added the printers via Yast as well. The only advantage of the iprint interface is that the printer-specific queues are defined. If I do it by hand (yast), I need to hunt down the printer admin guy and ask him what they queues are called. Otherwise, for me, both methods seem to work just fine.

I am now trying to find out why CUPS does not find all the IPP printers. I am not sure that their presence is being broadcast. It is a question for the local printer admin guy.

As far as I know an iPrint server does not do CUPS-style queue broadcasting (so called CUPS Browsing) so that a cupsd on a client system is not notified by an iPrint server about its queues. As far as I see such a notification would not make senes because an iPrint server does not do any filtering of print job data (in particular no printer driver runs on an iPrint server) so that it doesn't work to simply send e.g. PostScript documents to a queue on an iPrint server because there is nothing on the iPrint server which would convert the PostScript into the printer's native language (e.g. PCL but even for a PostScript printer at least the printer specific option settings must be added to the PostScript data), see http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:CUPS_in_a_Nutshell#The_Filter See above: "Basically - as far as I know - a non-secure queue on an iPrint server behaves like a network printer which is accessible via IPP protocol" i.e. a queue on iPrint server is a "raw" queue. Therefore one must set up a local queue with a matching driver for the printer model on each(!) client system and then the applications on the client systems must use only those local queues so that it would even lead to confusion if additionally the "raw" queues on the iPrint server would also directly accessible on the client systems. As far as I know CUPS Browsing is an enhancement by CUPS and not a generic or mandatory part of IPP. Regarding CUPS Browsing see http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:CUPS_in_a_Nutshell "Intrinsic design of CUPS for printing in the network" in particular ------------------------------------------------------------- Configuration of the clients: ... Start cupsd. ... Under normal circumstances, you should not configure anything else, especially * no local queues on clients and * no changes in the default settings for cupsd on clients. ------------------------------------------------------------- At least from my point of view configuring CUPS for printing in the network seems to be much easier and much more secure for the client systems than anything else which I know about. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 09:30 +0100, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

On Nov 27 16:04 Roger Oberholtzer wrote (shortened):

...

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 14:59 +0100, Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

...

On Nov 27 10:19 Roger Oberholtzer wrote (shortened):

...

Anyone know the status of the Novell IPrint Client and Netware Clients for openSUSE? The IPrint client does seem to work ok. But it is never included with openSUSE.

Because openSUSE provides free software, iPrint is not included. - The iPrint server is proprietary and you must pay for it. - The iPrint client is proprietary and almost as "free" as the Adobe Reader.

I guess it does not have to be included any more than other things like nvidia drivers or MS fonts are. I am very flexible about the mechanism for obtaining this. I am just confused about the non-availability - there is nothing to be obtained.

I used in Google this search string

Iprint is not really the problem. Just curious why these are not in a repository, or even a one-click install in some web page. Along with the netware client, ifolder, and whatever other Novell things that Novell would like folk to use. If the RPMs are available, why not via this great openSUSE setup? My real issue is with the netware client availability in general. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher And remember: It is RSofT and there is always something under construction. It is like talking about a large city with all construction finished. Not impossible, but very unlikely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 22:00 +0100, Stefan Behlert wrote:

Being propriatery, they cannot release the NCL on openSUSE.

You mean they can't release it on the CD? Or not at all? Other proprietary software is released for openSUSE. -- Michael S. Dunsavage -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 11, 08 20:53:31 -0500, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 22:00 +0100, Stefan Behlert wrote:

...

Being propriatery, they cannot release the NCL on openSUSE.

You mean they can't release it on the CD? Or not at all? Other

Not on CD, as openSUSE 11.1 is without any proprietary software. Stefan -- Stefan Behlert, SUSE LINUX - a Novell business, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org