[opensuse] From offtopic list.
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi Fred,
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours. There are MANY here who don't agree with you. Part of the MAJOR problems presently being experienced in Europe is that there's been a great deal of PC towards Muslims, and now look at the problems!!!! It is a pagan religion of HATE, lies, and deceit. I can not give into any Muslim whining. The truth is the truth and I WON'T hold back at any time anywhere.....period!! So, I guess you might as well take me off all openSUSE elists. I use various sigs as I rotate them from time to time. I don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is MUCH more important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment right, and a God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!! I've enjoyed using SuSE for MANY years, have helped a LOT of people with their problems, and have it installed on a whole LOT of systems. Oh well, there are other distros. It just seems really ignorant, Henne, that you have responded this way to me because of someone who's NOT been on this list till now, who more than likely - IF we knew the truth and I know we won't - isn't who he/she claims to be and has a REAL name he/she's not giving. Further, what about the anti-Christian snide remarks that have been on more than one list off and on for a LONG time? Have I or anyone else been complaining to you about that?! Of course not!! I know, Henne.....what's fair for the goose isn't fair for the gander as long as you're a Muslim or a Muslim sympathizer, then no one better tell the true about Islam or criticize it in any way! ALL other religions are fair game, however. But, it's your show, Henne. Fred -- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi Fred,
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours.
I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil" people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums where you can freely express your opinions about religion. An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem inappropriate for this particular list. My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them). -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/10/2010 08:33 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi Fred,
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them. You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours.
I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil" people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums where you can freely express your opinions about religion. An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem inappropriate for this particular list. My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).
Tony, a lot of people use sigs......some I like and some I don't. I don't complain about any of them....it's a FREE SPEECH issue....PERIOD. There are many on a lot of the lists who I don't agree with. For example, Basil and I get into it frequently on the off-topic list, but if Henne tried to kick him off, he'd have a BIG ration of grief from me and I suspect some others who also don't agree with Basil. I don't like censorship for ANYONE, whether I agree with them or not doesn't matter.....censorship is WRONG, anywhere at anytime....PERIOD! Fred -- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 08:33 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi Fred,
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them. You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance. First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours. I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil"
Fred A. Miller wrote: people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums where you can freely express your opinions about religion. An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem inappropriate for this particular list. My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).
Tony, a lot of people use sigs......some I like and some I don't. I don't complain about any of them....it's a FREE SPEECH issue....PERIOD. There are many on a lot of the lists who I don't agree with. For example, Basil and I get into it frequently on the off-topic list, but if Henne tried to kick him off, he'd have a BIG ration of grief from me and I suspect some others who also don't agree with Basil. I don't like censorship for ANYONE, whether I agree with them or not doesn't matter.....censorship is WRONG, anywhere at anytime....PERIOD!
Fred
Then since you don't "get it", I'm sure you won't mind if I filter your posts, to which are attached your offensive, political, and inflammatory sigs which are simply off-topic to the purported objective of the list. You have the right to stand on any street corner in the US and proclaim whatever it is that you believe. You may create your own website and say literally anything that you wish. You may print your manifesto and nail it to any signpost in America as Thomas Paine once did. But the operators of this list have the right to set up whatever rules that they wish about the content of the list. This does not infringe on any rights you have to express your views on an infinite number of other forums. But it is also the right of any group to set up their own blog/forum/list whatever and set up whatever rules that they wish. You are confusing your right of freedom of speech in a PUBLIC forum with the right of a private group to restrict what content is posted on their private forum. If I do not like the rules that the private group has set up, I am free not to join and to make my opinions known elsewhere. Your right of free speech has not been violated or suppressed. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 08:33 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi Fred,
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them. You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance. First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours. I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil"
Fred A. Miller wrote: people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums where you can freely express your opinions about religion. An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem inappropriate for this particular list. My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).
Tony, a lot of people use sigs......some I like and some I don't. I don't complain about any of them....it's a FREE SPEECH issue....PERIOD.
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech". -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing and Keelhauling Christians" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech".
This is now getting silly .. This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby and it is about time it all went back to sleep and life was gotten on with instead of getting personal snotty and generally bad assed , So the whole darn lot of ya will ya please let it drop the Mushy is noted by his absense after stirring up the brown and smelly so C T F O (chill the f*** out) Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 07:21 up 46 days 22:03, 3 users, load average: 0.13, 0.07, 0.01
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech".
This is now getting silly ..
This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby
<snip> Please let us know what your particular philosophical or religious beliefs are so that we may defame them and then see how "gobby" you become. The whole thing *has* gotten a little silly, but the solution is to remove religious and philosophical commentary from the list. Just like we've (for the most part) agreed not to top post, not to break threads, not to post in html. It is simply an issue of decorum. What if I were to start some rant about how linux sucks and Windows 7 eats SuSE lunch? The list would be on my case in two clock cycles about trolling and spreading FUD. So how is the inclusion of religious commentary any less FUD? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/11/2010 04:06 AM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech".
This is now getting silly .. This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby
<snip>
Please let us know what your particular philosophical or religious beliefs are so that we may defame them and then see how "gobby" you become. The whole thing *has* gotten a little silly, but the solution is to remove religious and philosophical commentary from the list. Just like we've (for the most part) agreed not to top post, not to break threads, not to post in html. It is simply an issue of decorum.
What if I were to start some rant about how linux sucks and Windows 7 eats SuSE lunch? The list would be on my case in two clock cycles about trolling and spreading FUD. So how is the inclusion of religious commentary any less FUD?
First, it WASN'T and ISN'T "religious commentary," except for the complaint! It was a sig....period. You sig.............. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" Ah......now here's just as ignorant a complaint as the one filed on me. I could complain because you're promoting sailing, which can harm mammals, fish, etc. Of course it's extreme and absurd, but so was what started this whole thing in the first place.....free speech NOT applying to anyone who says anything a Muslim doesn't like. Fred -- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote: <snip>
First, it WASN'T and ISN'T "religious commentary," except for the complaint! It was a sig....period.
It was (and is) an insult... period. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11 March 10, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
<snip>
First, it WASN'T and ISN'T "religious commentary," except for the complaint! It was a sig....period.
It was (and is) an insult... period.
Your breathing in my clean air offends me and is an insult. Please do your duty now. -- If guns kill people then... - Pencils mispell words. - Cars make people drive drunk. - Spoons make people overeat. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 03/12/2010 02:55 PM, JB2 wrote:
On 11 March 10, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
<snip>
First, it WASN'T and ISN'T "religious commentary," except for the complaint! It was a sig....period.
It was (and is) an insult... period.
Your breathing in my clean air offends me and is an insult. Please do your duty now.
Stop insulting each other or there will be consequences. This thread is now closed! Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 09:06:08 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech".
This is now getting silly ..
This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby
<snip>
Please let us know what your particular philosophical or religious beliefs are so that we may defame them and then see how "gobby" you become. The whole thing *has* gotten a little silly, but the solution is to remove religious and philosophical commentary from the list. Just like we've (for the most part) agreed not to top post, not to break threads, not to post in html. It is simply an issue of decorum.
What if I were to start some rant about how linux sucks and Windows 7 eats SuSE lunch? The list would be on my case in two clock cycles about trolling and spreading FUD. So how is the inclusion of religious commentary any less FUD?
With the greatest of pleasure get this ALL Religion is nothing more than a load of trash dreamy up by the few to attempt control of the many i do not care which bran of hypocrisy you bend for it is ALL cobblers Pure and simple the churches are just get rich organisations for a few at the expense of the many and as for gobby come meet me face to face and say that weasel at least i got the balls to reliase that there ain't no god buddha allah or whatever other incantation you care to give to the fairy tale i don't need any mythical hocum pocum to live my life and when the rest of you all start seeing life for what it is then the sooner things will improve globally Pete Oh and if you wish to continue then get to the OT list -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 19:30 up 47 days 10:12, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.09, 0.03
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 09:06:08 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech". This is now getting silly ..
This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby <snip>
Please let us know what your particular philosophical or religious beliefs are so that we may defame them and then see how "gobby" you become. The whole thing *has* gotten a little silly, but the solution is to remove religious and philosophical commentary from the list. Just like we've (for the most part) agreed not to top post, not to break threads, not to post in html. It is simply an issue of decorum.
What if I were to start some rant about how linux sucks and Windows 7 eats SuSE lunch? The list would be on my case in two clock cycles about trolling and spreading FUD. So how is the inclusion of religious commentary any less FUD?
With the greatest of pleasure get this ALL Religion is nothing more than a load of trash dreamy up by the few to attempt control of the many i do not care which bran of hypocrisy you bend for it is ALL cobblers
Pure and simple the churches are just get rich organisations for a few at the expense of the many
and as for gobby come meet me face to face and say that weasel at least i got the balls to reliase that there ain't no god buddha allah or whatever other incantation you care to give to the fairy tale i don't need any mythical hocum pocum to live my life and when the rest of you all start seeing life for what it is then the sooner things will improve globally
Pete Oh and if you wish to continue then get to the OT list
No, I'll take a pass. Good day. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11 March 10, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again) and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of promoting "free speech".
This is now getting silly ..
This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby
<snip>
waaaaaahhhhhhh
There...fixed it for you, you whiny little girl. Bunch of little pansies, whining about how something 'offends', instead of takin' it like a man and grown-up and either ignoring it or letting the 'offender' know off-list. -- In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -John Adams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Then since you don't "get it", I'm sure you won't mind if I filter your posts,
That is exactly the right way to deal with it. Use your killfile, people. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-2.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 08:14 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Tony Alfrey wrote:
Then since you don't "get it", I'm sure you won't mind if I filter your posts,
That is exactly the right way to deal with it. Use your killfile, people.
It could of course, go back to the off-topic list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
I don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is MUCH more important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment right, and a God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!
Hahaha! Priceless! Did you really just say it's ok to denigrate someone else's religious beliefs because your religious beliefs tell you so? My atheist heart is amused beyond my capacity to express. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 03/10/2010 09:27 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
I don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is MUCH more important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment right, and a God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!
Hahaha! Priceless! Did you really just say it's ok to denigrate someone else's religious beliefs because your religious beliefs tell you so?
My atheist heart is amused beyond my capacity to express.
NO, that's not what I said. This is a free speech issue. Muslims are the ONLY religious group to DEMAND that no one says anything about Islam that they don't like. Fred -- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 22:20 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
NO, that's not what I said. This is a free speech issue. Muslims are the ONLY religious group to DEMAND that no one says anything about Islam that they don't like.
Sorry, but there are quite a few christians, jews, ... pick ANY religion ... that are more than happy to tell people that they are not allowed to say things about their chosen fantasy that they don't like. I agree with the other 'moderates' on this list - that this issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion of free software, openSUSE, KDE, GNOME etc and should not only be removed from this list, but should not even make it on to the OT list in the first place. If you really have a gripe with some religion, I am sure there are many other places more appropriate to vent. Allen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 14:43 +1100, Allen Benter wrote:
I agree with the other 'moderates' on this list - that this issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion of free software, openSUSE, KDE, GNOME etc and should not only be removed from this list, but should not even make it on to the OT list in the first place.
+1.
If you really have a gripe with some religion, I am sure there are many other places more appropriate to vent.
+1 Go somewhere else; the "freedom of speech" gripe doesn't apply, because you don't have the right to flood forums with unrelated bilge - which is your preventing speech, BTW. Go away. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:17:38 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Go somewhere else; the "freedom of speech" gripe doesn't apply, because you don't have the right to flood forums with unrelated bilge - which is your preventing speech, BTW.
*finally*, someone has said what I've been thinking. "Free speech" protections have to do with the US government limiting speech. It has absolutely nothing to do with what is allowed in private. IANAL, but I've seen this discussion happen pretty much the same way for 20+ years (and several times I've seen it discussed BY lawyers who know this stuff), and here's what it always boils down to: A mailing list/forum/discussion board is not a "public space" (first amendment protections have to do with free speech in publicly owned venues, like state parks, for example), it's a privately maintained mailing list. The owners of this list can set rules and enforce them. Fred stated that he acknowledges that there may be consequences to exercising his free speech. One of those consequences when attempting to exercise your free speech in a private venue (which this is) is that you may be required to play by rules you don't agree with, and if you can't live with that, then you may be asked (or required) to leave. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 09:27 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
NO, that's not what I said. This is a free speech issue. Muslims are the ONLY religious group to DEMAND that no one says anything about Islam that they don't like.
Better bone up on Christian history, as you obviously haven't read much of it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 12:11 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 09:27 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
NO, that's not what I said. This is a free speech issue. Muslims are the ONLY religious group to DEMAND that no one says anything about Islam that they don't like.
Better bone up on Christian history, as you obviously haven't read much of it.
Hey James? Take this to e-mail huh. Henne mentioned that Fred has been unsubscribed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
“The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir
To show how easily one turns a sig into content, I clipped all but the sig.... That a stupidity like that has the right to appear on my screen, is something that interferes with *my* rights: *I* subscribe to opensuse for......OPEN SUSE SHTUFF, what part of that is beyond the intellectual capacity of posters like Mr. Miller? If *I* wanted to discuss muslims and jews and christians, i would go to an appropriate forum. In my opinion the solution is very simple: Mr. Miller SHOULD NOT be banned from the suse lists. HOWEVER, the "sig" can only be an *actual* sig. A simple name, no more than a couple dozen characters actually mentioning a legal first and a last name. Then, if Mr. Miller clings to his God Given right to free speech, he is fully entitled to do so within the content of the post. .................................................. btw Fred, I personnally am a Greek Orthodox Christian. In my culture and in *every other* Eastern Christian culture, there has been a saying for a few hundreds of years: "It is better to suffer under the sword of "Muhammad" then live thru the blessing of the pope." That was first said *BEFORE* the fall of Constantinoupoli in 1453 ad and has remained true until very recently. that saying, that belief is what the crusades accomplished "in the name of the Lord." read some objective history if you must. And it was only about a year or so that the pope actually *officislly* denounced the crusades and *asked forgiveness* from the Patriarch in Constantinoupoli (Istambloul = Is tin poli = to THE city for the not knowing) The above was only added in in order to show that there are other view points. and, to further make the last point: GO RON PAUL!!!! down with the fed! down with the bailouts! down with the wars! respectfully, Dimitris, without a stoopid sig:) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
one final comment re free speech and internet forums. in the proctology forum, anyone is free to say anything pertaining to proctology. no gay rights, no muslim funamentalists, no higher than thou christians. even in the "sig". in the easter bunny forum, anyone is free to say anything about the easter bunny. no gay rights, no muslim funamentalists, no higher than thou christians. even in the "sig". and so on. that much is owed to the members of each forum. one's "rights" may *not* trample on the rights of others. since "sigs" seem to be the wmd of choice against the fundamentals of individual forums, it is rather elementary that "sigs" should be eliminated in affected forums. i sincerely hope the forum masters close this "loophole". dimitris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 19:59 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
There are MANY here who don't agree with you. Part of the MAJOR problems presently being experienced in Europe is that there's been a great deal of PC towards Muslims, and now look at the problems!!!! It is a pagan religion of HATE, lies, and deceit. I can not give into any Muslim whining. The truth is the truth and I WON'T hold back at any time anywhere.....period!! So, I guess you might as well take me off all openSUSE elists. I use various sigs as I rotate them from time to time. I don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is MUCH more important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment right, and a God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!
I should know better than to do this, but there is something in the air today... I saw Henry Rollins the other day. I fully agree with his take on this view: Americans (and others - it is not an America-only thing) have a right to free speech. No issue - it should be that way everywhere. But, with any great right comes a great responsibility. Having a right does not mean you should abuse it. Expressing an opinion just because you can does not mean that you are obliged to do so. Especially when it serves no productive purpose. I take freedom of speech to also mean that one is free NOT to say something. That is, one is not required to parrot the party line. Some of the folk under fire are, perhaps, not so lucky. It somehow seems shallow for a person with a freedom to complain against those who do not have that freedom (often a social and not a political restriction - but a restriction none the less). It does not make me a sympathizer with their arguments. I just choose to see them in that light and take no action on them. I won't touch on the Muslim issue. I have strong opinions as well. Many are surely not PC. And, Frank, where exactly is God's signature on the Bill of Rights? I suggest you meant to state that you have a U. S. Constitution given right to free speech. If the Constitution took it away, God will not be able to help you.
It just seems really ignorant, Henne, that you have responded this way to me because of someone who's NOT been on this list till now, who more than likely - IF we knew the truth and I know we won't - isn't who he/she claims to be and has a REAL name he/she's not giving. Further, what about the anti-Christian snide remarks that have been on more than one list off and on for a LONG time?
No excuse for it, I am sure. But as a Christian, you were delivered with another cheek. Is it not in working order? -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 03/11/2010 01:59 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours.
Yes. One choice that you just strongly affirmed. I will not tolerate this kind of remarks from you or anyone else on these lists. The openSUSE community is based on mutual respect for each others' views. I have unsubscribed you from all lists. Please go and do not come back. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 03/11/2010 01:59 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance. First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my choice but yours.
Yes. One choice that you just strongly affirmed. I will not tolerate this kind of remarks from you or anyone else on these lists. The openSUSE community is based on mutual respect for each others' views.
I have unsubscribed you from all lists. Please go and do not come back.
Henne
Henne, it has been posited by another reader of the off-topic list that you tolerate negative remarks about some religions but not others. I don't read the off-topic list (I see that may be a wise decision), but would you care to comment since this has leaked onto the "real" list? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 03/11/2010 12:35 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Henne, it has been posited by another reader of the off-topic list that you tolerate negative remarks about some religions but not others. I don't read the off-topic list (I see that may be a wise decision), but would you care to comment since this has leaked onto the "real" list?
I just said what i don't tolerate. I don't read the offtopic list either. If you are offended by something somewhere on our lists please talk to the sender in a private message. I'm sure most of us are reasonable grown ups that are able to dispute over something like this and come to an agreement. If you don't want to or you can't sort it out you can contact the owner of that list (listname+owner@opensuse.org) or me (ml-admin@opensuse.org) and we will help. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Fred A. Miller wrote:
There are MANY here who don't agree with you. Part of the MAJOR problems presently being experienced in Europe is that there's been a great deal of PC towards Muslims, and now look at the problems!!!! It is a pagan religion of HATE, lies, and deceit.
How is that different from any other religion? From where I sit, one's as bad as the next. They are *ALL* delusion that many use to hurt others. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi, there is no need to discuss this any further. Especially no need to discuss religion. Stop this nonsense. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 09:25 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Fred A. Miller wrote:
There are MANY here who don't agree with you. Part of the MAJOR problems presently being experienced in Europe is that there's been a great deal of PC towards Muslims, and now look at the problems!!!! It is a pagan religion of HATE, lies, and deceit.
How is that different from any other religion?
How does this have anything to do with openSUSE? Go to the offtopic list. -- openSUSE w/GNOME http://www.opensuse.org/en/ Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (14)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Allen Benter -
Brian K. White -
Fred A. Miller -
Henne Vogelsang -
James Knott -
JB2 -
Jim Henderson -
kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com -
Mike McMullin -
Per Jessen -
Peter Nikolic -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Tony Alfrey