[opensuse] Good bye
I've used SuSE Linux since version 4.4.1 that I got in October 1998. I've been on this list since about that time, maybe 2000. I don't really remember. Today I am on more than 60 email lists and I own 4 and help with 5 or 6 others. When I joined this list, it was a great list. I could ask a question and in a few minutes get good help. I could also pass on help where I had learned something. But that time is over. Today there are only a very few people that help. One person that stands out is Per. There are a couple of others. To Per and these others, I say thank you. Today most times when I (or others) ask a question, if they are lucky its just ignored or if very lucky get some help. But mostly its "google is your friend", complaints about sigs, or silly flame wars. Many times I've thought that I could answer questions for someone, but didn't due to the "google-guy" or "sig-guy". I knew that no matter what, there would be one of these typess to explain why I was wrong (to put it nicely): I have found that I can get as good, many times better help on Lew's Off-Topic List. Yes, we get into shouting matches there, but it has never went to depths it has here. So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening. JIM -- Check out my stamp & postcard collection! Yankee GO HOME! Anti-US Propaganda on stamps, postcards, envelopes, and labels http://yankeegohome.18-t.com/ Check out my online Delcampe store http://www.delcampe.net/stores/warthogbulletin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday 07 Jul 2012 14:20:11 James Hatridge wrote:
I've used SuSE Linux since version 4.4.1 that I got in October 1998. I've been on this list since about that time, maybe 2000. I don't really remember. Today I am on more than 60 email lists and I own 4 and help with 5 or 6 others.
When I joined this list, it was a great list. I could ask a question and in a few minutes get good help. I could also pass on help where I had learned something. But that time is over. Today there are only a very few people that help. One person that stands out is Per. There are a couple of others. To Per and these others, I say thank you. Today most times when I (or others) ask a question, if they are lucky its just ignored or if very lucky get some help. But mostly its "google is your friend", complaints about sigs, or silly flame wars. Many times I've thought that I could answer questions for someone, but didn't due to the "google-guy" or "sig-guy". I knew that no matter what, there would be one of these typess to explain why I was wrong (to put it nicely):
I have found that I can get as good, many times better help on Lew's Off-Topic List. Yes, we get into shouting matches there, but it has never went to depths it has here.
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
JIM
bye bye, your sentiments and sig won't be missed -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/07/12 14:42, ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 07 Jul 2012 14:20:11 James Hatridge wrote:
I've used SuSE Linux since version 4.4.1 that I got in October 1998. I've been on this list since about that time, maybe 2000. I don't really remember. Today I am on more than 60 email lists and I own 4 and help with 5 or 6 others.
When I joined this list, it was a great list. I could ask a question and in a few minutes get good help. I could also pass on help where I had learned something. But that time is over. Today there are only a very few people that help. One person that stands out is Per. There are a couple of others. To Per and these others, I say thank you. Today most times when I (or others) ask a question, if they are lucky its just ignored or if very lucky get some help. But mostly its "google is your friend", complaints about sigs, or silly flame wars. Many times I've thought that I could answer questions for someone, but didn't due to the "google-guy" or "sig-guy". I knew that no matter what, there would be one of these typess to explain why I was wrong (to put it nicely):
I have found that I can get as good, many times better help on Lew's Off-Topic List. Yes, we get into shouting matches there, but it has never went to depths it has here.
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
JIM
bye bye, your sentiments and sig won't be missed
Actually, I'll miss Jim. And I have no problem with his sig. Jim, I agree that the S/N ratio is pretty poor here at the moment, but there is still a lot of good stuff here. You just have to learn to filter out the noise. Usenet has always been like this :( Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.1.10-1.16-desktop Distro: openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.8.4 (4.8.4) "release 511" Uptime: 06:00am up 2 days 17:05, 5 users, load average: 0.23, 0.18, 0.34 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Bob Williams wrote:
On 07/07/12 14:42, ianseeks wrote:
On Saturday 07 Jul 2012 14:20:11 James Hatridge wrote:
I've used SuSE Linux since version 4.4.1 that I got in October 1998. I've been on this list since about that time, maybe 2000. I don't really remember. Today I am on more than 60 email lists and I own 4 and help with 5 or 6 others.
When I joined this list, it was a great list. I could ask a question and in a few minutes get good help. I could also pass on help where I had learned something. But that time is over. Today there are only a very few people that help. One person that stands out is Per. There are a couple of others. To Per and these others, I say thank you. Today most times when I (or others) ask a question, if they are lucky its just ignored or if very lucky get some help. But mostly its "google is your friend", complaints about sigs, or silly flame wars. Many times I've thought that I could answer questions for someone, but didn't due to the "google-guy" or "sig-guy". I knew that no matter what, there would be one of these typess to explain why I was wrong (to put it nicely):
I have found that I can get as good, many times better help on Lew's Off-Topic List. Yes, we get into shouting matches there, but it has never went to depths it has here.
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
JIM
bye bye, your sentiments and sig won't be missed
Actually, I'll miss Jim. And I have no problem with his sig.
+1
Jim, I agree that the S/N ratio is pretty poor here at the moment, but there is still a lot of good stuff here. You just have to learn to filter out the noise.
Usenet has always been like this :(
That is quite true, and lists/groups with really poor S/N ratios ended up dying. I hope that's not where we're heading. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2012-07-07 at 14:20 +0200, James Hatridge wrote: ...
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
Sorry about that. But if you own some lists, you know that all lists have their rules, and they have to be accepted. This list also has some rules, you have to accept them, or go elsewhere... Ans if you have been here such a long time as you say, you should already know that this subject is untouchable: because the policy will not change, and because it causes a useless flamewar. You should not have brought up the subject. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk/48eUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WbEQCfdysUR2YA1mm8xFWKEoSqvZCv LSUAmwbhm3LP7LVWCn/RAbcV+cmTDqYC =677c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/07/2012 07:35 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On Saturday, 2012-07-07 at 14:20 +0200, James Hatridge wrote:
...
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
Sorry about that.
I am too.
But if you own some lists, you know that all lists have their rules, and they have to be accepted. This list also has some rules, you have to accept them, or go elsewhere...
Jim just asked about possibly changing the html policy.
Ans if you have been here such a long time as you say, you should already know that this subject is untouchable: because the policy will not change, and because it causes a useless flamewar.
Untouchable subject? Policy that won't change? Causes flamewar? Sounds kind of rigid and totalitarian to me. Must speech be curtailed because of something it "might" cause? Prior restraint? I'm not aware of any rules that Jim broke, please correct me if I'm wrong.
You should not have brought up the subject.
Taboo subjects! Wow. An administrative question here has wandered into off-topic land. Might I suggest it be brought to an off-topic list? I'm sure that someone with an openSuSE question doesn't really care about the good/bad of html email. The openSuSE community should be inclusive and helpful, not tyrannical and unfriendly. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/08/2012 11:58 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
An administrative question here has wandered into off-topic land. Might I suggest it be brought to an off-topic list? I'm sure that someone with an openSuSE question doesn't really care about the good/bad of html email. The openSuSE community should be inclusive and helpful, not tyrannical and unfriendly.
Can we change the subject? Can we now enter an endless discussion on why people have to remember to hit "reply-list" on this mailing list. That is always a "fun" topic that comes up from time to time. :-) :-) (Yes, I'm being sarcastic....) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Ed Greshko wrote:
On 07/08/2012 11:58 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
An administrative question here has wandered into off-topic land. Might I suggest it be brought to an off-topic list? I'm sure that someone with an openSuSE question doesn't really care about the good/bad of html email. The openSuSE community should be inclusive and helpful, not tyrannical and unfriendly.
Can we change the subject?
Can we now enter an endless discussion on why people have to remember to hit "reply-list" on this mailing list. That is always a "fun" topic that comes up from time to time. :-) :-)
Papers titled "X considered harmful" considered harmful.
(Yes, I'm being sarcastic....)
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-08 05:58, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 07/07/2012 07:35 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Untouchable subject? Policy that won't change? Causes flamewar? Sounds kind of rigid and totalitarian to me. Must speech be curtailed because of something it "might" cause? Prior restraint? I'm not aware of any rules that Jim broke, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I just state facts. You just have to read previous discussions on this same subject. I suggest you find out what the list management has said about the subject on previous occasions to know what your change expectations are. As far as I'm concerned you can talk about it as much as you want, but you see what happened: James was burned and went away. Should we be more kind? Perhaps, but it has not happened before. It is a very touchy subject, some feel fanatical about it. It is better not to touch it, IMO. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/5hhMACgkQIvFNjefEBxqI4ACg1cH3wnPE5wHzmaYTyBrsjWkd c2IAnRrTB9oVKvvNpvUpeIqE7bE1iHdM =mHq1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
<snip>
But if you own some lists, you know that all lists have their rules, and they have to be accepted. This list also has some rules, you have to accept them, or go elsewhere...
Jim just asked about possibly changing the html policy.
No, he did not. A question about changing the html policy could have been posted with any number of subjects, here is one as an example "Could we please.....". Instead Jim chose to start his message with a subject "I am sick of it....", or something similar, that is inflammatory and invites exactly the kind of response received while as a side effect, or maybe intentional, creating an endless thread that fills everyone's inbox. It is funny how those people that complain about the noise on the list are also responsible for raising the noise level. If people leave out the bitching and moaning, that unfortunately appears to go along with most problem reports, they'll get for the most part a decent answer. It appears to me that many people haven't figured out yet, that "yelling" at the group you would like to get an answer from will generally not yield the results they actually desire. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/09/2012 11:16 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote:
It is funny how those people that complain about the noise on the list are also responsible for raising the noise level.
Recently there was a similar post on the Fedora User's email list. After a few days of endless back and forth....like with this thread and the "Sick of this...." thread the list owners finally stepped in and shut down the thread. It is back to business as usual there.... I've always thought the list admins here were more active in calling an end to this kind of nonsense. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 7. Juli 2012, 14:20:11 schrieb James Hatridge:
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
You, being somebody not willing to keep politics (even unrelated to openSUSE kind of politics) off a technical mailinglist, should not be that surprised that it deteriorates from its technical purpose. You added your bit to support that development. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 7. Juli 2012, 14:20:11 schrieb James Hatridge:
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
You, being somebody not willing to keep politics (even unrelated to openSUSE kind of politics) off a technical mailinglist, should not be that surprised that it deteriorates from its technical purpose.
You added your bit to support that development.
Sven, I guess you neglected to visit Jims website - if you had, you would have noticed that there was zero political message in Jims .sig. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 9. Juli 2012, 10:11:00 schrieb Per Jessen:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
You, being somebody not willing to keep politics (even unrelated to openSUSE kind of politics) off a technical mailinglist, should not be that surprised that it deteriorates from its technical purpose.
You added your bit to support that development.
Sven, I guess you neglected to visit Jims website - if you had, you would have noticed that there was zero political message in Jims .sig.
You guessed wrong I'm afraid. Zero is wrong IMHO (just check the sticker on the page – is that not a political statement?) but also not to the point since the signature stands on its own and you cannot expect everybody to click on links etc. just to check "what is really meant". People read it and notice the keywords, that's it. My point still stands that people interested in keeping this mailinglist technical should just skip any kind of potential politics (same for religious things) in their posts no matter whether it is part of the signature or elsewhere. They add zero value but do have the potential to provoke negative consequences. Hence, not worth it on a technical mailinglist. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Montag, 9. Juli 2012, 10:11:00 schrieb Per Jessen:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
You, being somebody not willing to keep politics (even unrelated to openSUSE kind of politics) off a technical mailinglist, should not be that surprised that it deteriorates from its technical purpose.
You added your bit to support that development.
Sven, I guess you neglected to visit Jims website - if you had, you would have noticed that there was zero political message in Jims .sig.
You guessed wrong I'm afraid.
Zero is wrong IMHO (just check the sticker on the page – is that not a political statement?)
Maybe it depends on the individual, to me that is humour.
but also not to the point since the signature stands on its own and you cannot expect everybody to click on links etc. just to check "what is really meant". People read it and notice the keywords, that's it.
Yeah, that is true I suppose. Nonetheless, Jim Hatridge has had that .sig (or similar) for years - it is a pity he felt he had to leave just because a few individuals who felt offended.
My point still stands that people interested in keeping this mailinglist technical should just skip any kind of potential politics (same for religious things) in their posts no matter whether it is part of the signature or elsewhere.
In principle you're right, in practice everyone here ought to consider being a little more tolerant. Otherwise it becomes just too cumbersome being a subscriber here and not worth it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-07-09 11:03, Per Jessen wrote:
In principle you're right, in practice everyone here ought to consider being a little more tolerant. Otherwise it becomes just too cumbersome being a subscriber here and not worth it.
That's right :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/6xA8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxpBcQCgy8XFZ/mYo+wbcUFU/qm86fac HcUAmwaw3NmBMFzmt/uSzoDjp5jOmdaB =9Xvh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 14:20 +0200, James Hatridge wrote:
So the bottom line, is that this list has got to the point I can no longer stay on it. It would be nice if the list owner would fix it, but I don't see it happening.
You'll find the same on any OS list, however, many of RedHat's lists are OK these days, forget ubuntu and debian though, in fact, most of any general public list is such a way. Yes, many lists are out of control, not enough official policing, and too many self-appointed "net cops" who spend more time posting about other people posting the way they don't like than actually contributing something sane and valid to threads. The funny thing is, 95% of _them_ don't post according to the rules either (ie: not trimming posts and using inline quoting, the list goes on) but it's one rule for the self appointed "net cops" (I have other names for them but I'll refrain), and another set of rules for the rest. Those people (self appointed net cops), are FAR FAR WORSE, then the people they are bitching about, in fact, all they are doing is bullying, and they need moderation and correcting, than the newbies.
participants (11)
-
Bob Williams -
Carlos E. R. -
Dirk Gently -
Ed Greshko -
ianseeks -
James Hatridge -
Lew Wolfgang -
Noel Butler -
Per Jessen -
Robert Schweikert -
Sven Burmeister