SUSE can't really be blamed for aiming 9.1 personal at newbies. They have to try and grow the market. Seems the messages here from people suprised at not being able to compile stuff, not finding Gnome .. etc are understandable too in a way. I still think we run the best distro. J

I take your point. As Jostein said, ftp is best solution for now. Re the larger point, I guess things will change a bit before long. A unified desktop? <<I feel Gnome-Kneed at the prospect>>. For me Yast is way more important than the other stuff. J

The personal version 7.3, had a lot of desktops. I see one comment farther down the list, that 9.0 has Gnome packages and it does. I think it also has ICE, but my 9.0 Pro does have a lot fewer versions. I think SuSE is probably working to make sure everything works together. I've been using apt-get some, and I sure know the latest versions of doesemu and Bochs don't like each other! It's a mistake that SuSE didn't make. So, perhaps SuSE is doing things to keep their users happy if they stick to official upgrades, etc.? ---Jim On Tuesday 25 May 2004 18:39, you wrote:

The Tuesday 2004-05-25 at 23:40 +0100, Jake wrote:

...

SUSE can't really be blamed for aiming 9.1 personal at newbies. They have to try and grow the market.

One of the things that fascinated me as a newby was the number of desktops I could choose from, an not only gnome or kde - around Suse 5.2. That is, "choice" is one of the strongs points of linux, and limiting a distro (even a "personal") to only gnome, or only kde, doesn't seem good, IMO.

That said, I never bought the personal version, because I always felt it was too limited.

...

Seems the messages here from people suprised at not being able to compile stuff, not finding Gnome .. etc are understandable too in a way.

People are surprised because the personal version is probably not clearly labeled, as to what it has and what not, in the box itself, before the buyer opens it.

...

I still think we run the best distro.

Yes. But we want even better :-)

On Wednesday 26 May 2004 00:40, Jake wrote:

SUSE can't really be blamed for aiming 9.1 personal at newbies. They have to try and grow the market.

Seems the messages here from people suprised at not being able to compile stuff, not finding Gnome .. etc are understandable too in a way.

I still think we run the best distro.

J

Well, Suse can't be blamed for aiming their market efforts at newbies, but I think it was a bad idea to disregard their existing customer base in doing so. In other words, they shouldn't have called the "newbie" distro "personal" if the existing customer base expects something totally different OR they should have made this abundantly clear *on the box itself*. (I know there are a couple of lines somewhere on the web) OTOH since they ultimately will provide the whole shebang per ftp, maybe we shouldn't whine too much. Tip: Professional Update is the same as Professional, but with a manual less and costs only E 54.99 instead of E 79,- at amazon.de. (Admittedly twice as expensive as Personal: E 26.99) Contrary to its name it lets you run a fresh install. How do I know? Don't ask! :-) Best regards, -- Jos van Kan

try http://www.ximian.com/products/desktop/download.html -----Original Message----- From: James Ogley [mailto:james@usr-local-bin.org] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:24 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] 9.1 and lack of Gnome

Anyway, if anyone knows a good way to get Gnome for 9.1 without buying 9.1 professional, I'm open for ideas.

Wait for the FTP version to come out, and appear on the apt repositories, then install apt, apt-libs and lua from http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/9.1-i386/RPMS.suser-rbos/ and do either: apt-get update && apt-get install gnome* or, since I'll have ULB GNOME ready and available by then (sorry it's taking so long folks, other things eating my time at the moment...): apt-get update && at-get install ulb-gnome James -- James Ogley, UNIX Systems Administrator, Pinnacle Insurance Plc james.ogley@pinnacle.co.uk +44 (0) 20 8731 3619 www.pinnacle.co.uk Personal: james@rubberturnip.org.uk www.rubberturnip.org.uk Updated GNOME packages for SUSE LINUX: www.usr-local-bin.org -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

What the hell! I'll give a try and see what happens! On Wednesday 26 May 2004 07:54, jhb wrote:

try http://www.ximian.com/products/desktop/download.html

Are you running X while you're doing this? Try echo $DISPLAY, but I doubt it matters what that is set to. Chris On May 26, 2004 02:44 pm, Brooks wrote:

Tried installing XD2 and it won't go. Here's what I get:

brooks@84:~> xhost +localhost localhost being added to access control list brooks@84:~> su Password: 84:/home/brooks # wget -q -O - http://go.ximian.com |sh ==> Autodetecting system type... ==> Checking $DISPLAY and X permissions...

The Ximian Desktop Installer is a graphical application, and either you have no DISPLAY variable set or the root user does not have permission to access your X server. Run 'xhost +localhost' before becoming root, and make sure that the DISPLAY variable is set correctly before running the go-ximian script.

Cleaning up temporary files... done.

As you can see, I get this message AFTER I run the 'xhost +localhost' command that it suggests. I have no idea how to check whether I have a DISPLAY variable set.

Any ideas?

Jack

On Wednesday 26 May 2004 15:56, Marcus Brubaker wrote:

xhost +localhost su - root export DISPLAY=:0.0 wget -q -O - http://go.ximian.com | sh

Ok. Tried that and another suggestion and here's what I get: brooks@84:~> xhost +localhost localhost being added to access control list brooks@84:~> su Password: 84:/home/brooks # export DISPLAY=:0.0 84:/home/brooks # wget -q -O - http://go.ximian.com |sh ==> Autodetecting system type... ==> Checking $DISPLAY and X permissions... The Ximian Desktop Installer is a graphical application, and either you have no DISPLAY variable set or the root user does not have permission to access your X server. Run 'xhost +localhost' before becoming root, and make sure that the DISPLAY variable is set correctly before running the go-ximian script. Cleaning up temporary files... done. 84:/home/brooks # echo $DISPLAY :0.0

Mobeen Azhar wrote:

Then do:

Guys, give a newbie simple methods: 1. Login as root in X-Window, do your installation, log out 2. sux - (not su -) To the original poster: you shouldn't have bought SUSE Personal, without looking at the package contents. Would you complain to Microsoft if you discovered, after you paid the money, that you cannot join a XP Home Edition to a domain? Who's gonna know what you need, better than yourself?

Brooks wrote:

but that doesn't make it easy to do. And when a newbie gets frustrated with it, many of you will quickly blame him for not being knowledgeable or understanding how the software works. Now, I have a slightly higher than newbie knowledge on how to get what I want done, but there's no way my wife could use KDE and do all of the websurfing and play the games she likes if I didn't find a way to make it work. She wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

She would just stick to what's in in the box, ie KDE-only software. Or, more plausible, Windows and IE :-) You want Gnome because you know it exists, you're not a complete newbie, so you shouldn't have bought the newbie version. I can understand your frustration, you can vent here if you want... I'm putting you on, don't get mad :-)

-----Original Message----- From: Togan Muftuoglu [mailto:toganm@dinamizm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 10:38 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] 9.1 Personal and lack of Gnome

* Brooks; on 27 May, 2004 wrote:

...

On Thursday 27 May 2004 08:09, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

To the original poster: you shouldn't have bought SUSE Personal, without looking at the package contents.

Now that I have 9.1 personal, I think SuSE had a better plan with packaging Gnome with its home version for the extra $10. What you guys who are playing the role of SuSE apologist fail to understand (and is still somewhat of an inherent flaw in the linux community) is that newbie's and basic computer users who switch from Windoze do not want and do not know how to go out and search for file dependencies that certain programs need to operate. Yes, I

Why do you want gnome anyways? KDE is far superior to gnome, and has everything you should need. -- chris blastin

On Thursday 27 May 2004 10:37, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

I do not think when you buy Windows XP Home edition, it comes with all the additional stuff as well. You will also need to install additional libraries, programs etc. to have the functionality you have in your mind.

Yes, but Windows is easy to update and has the added advantage of everything being written for it and made to install easily. Linux has not quite achieved that yet. That's the difference. But this is not meant to be a linux/windows comparison thread. I only brought up Windows because that's what SuSE is marketing KDE as a comparison to on its website.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 16:49:36 -0400, you wrote:

On Thu, 2004-05-27 at 12:45, Brooks wrote:

...

On Thursday 27 May 2004 10:37, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

...

I do not think when you buy Windows XP Home edition, it comes with all the additional stuff as well. You will also need to install additional libraries, programs etc. to have the functionality you have in your mind.

Yes, but Windows is easy to update and has the added advantage of everything being written for it and made to install easily. Linux has not quite achieved that yet. That's the difference. But this is not meant to be a linux/windows comparison thread. I only brought up Windows because that's what SuSE is marketing KDE as a comparison to on its website.

As someone who is responsible for Win98se ME and XP-Pro systems, I can tell you that I find my Linux boxes easier to update, and keep in tune. You are right about the amount of stuff written for Windows, I keep asking the Intuit folks when I'm going to be able to ditch ME and run their software natively on Linux. I'm sure that it will take a number of folks asking that question before they think about it.

Mike

Quicken works just fine under Wine and Crossover office. Mike- -- If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough. -- Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have installed site-wide spam filters at catherders.com. If email from you bounces, try non-HTML, non-encoded, non-attachments,

What I've read, and not on Linux threads, one should get the Professional version of XP, Whatever version the native file format can't be written to by Linux like the Windows 98SE can, so either type would be a good thing to stay away from. Stick to your old Windows, if it isn't giving you and problems. I'm sticking with mine, I like the compatibility my Windows 98SE has with SuSE. ---Jim On Thursday 27 May 2004 11:45, you wrote:

On Thursday 27 May 2004 10:37, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

...

I do not think when you buy Windows XP Home edition, it comes with all the additional stuff as well. You will also need to install additional libraries, programs etc. to have the functionality you have in your mind.

Yes, but Windows is easy to update and has the added advantage of everything being written for it and made to install easily. Linux has not quite achieved that yet. That's the difference. But this is not meant to be a linux/windows comparison thread. I only brought up Windows because that's what SuSE is marketing KDE as a comparison to on its website.

* Brooks; on 27 May, 2004 wrote:

On Thursday 27 May 2004 10:37, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: issue. I think this is the perfect place to share that opinion, so save your recommendations for when you understand the point you're responding to.

as long as you are capable of reading and understanding what it says in my signature. -- Togan Muftuoglu | Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer | Please reply to the list; http://susefaq.sf.net | Please don't put me in TO/CC. Nisi defectum, haud refiecendum

Our SLES 8 for AMD64 application server crashed today. I had to have our colocation facility do a hard reboot - but at least it seems to have come up OK. I looked in /var/log/messages and, but not much in the way of explanation was found: May 27 09:47:49 kingfish saslauthd[12031]: pam_mysql: acct_mgmt called but not implemented. Dont panic though :) May 27 09:47:49 kingfish pop3d[26193]: login: ip68-109-128-18.ph.ph.cox.net[68.109.128.18] lee.fromltoj.com plaintext+TLS May 27 09:48:49 kingfish master[1502]: process 26193 exited, status 0 May 27 09:49:00 kingfish modprobe: modprobe: Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep (No such file or directory) May 27 09:49:00 kingfish /USR/SBIN/CRON[26195]: (root) CMD ( rm -f /var/spool/cron/lastrun/cron.hourly) May 27 10:00:09 kingfish syslogd 1.4.1: restart. May 27 10:00:10 kingfish /etc/hotplug/usb.rc[451]: loaded HCD: usb-ohci Any ideas are appreciated on the cause. I did research further back and sometime after May 19th I started to get the message "Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep". It happens like 300 to 400 times per day. I believe that around that time I applied a kernel security patch for AMD64: Title: Security update for Linux kernel (AMD64) http://sdb.suse.de/en/psdb/html/665565dbb2c37d261e5eaa9fd51c857e.html _______________________________________________________ Applies to Product(s): SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 for AMD64 UnitedLinux 1.0 Package: k_deflt,k_numa,k_smp,kernel-source Release: 20040429 Obsoletes: none Here is the output from "uname -a" and a snippet from the logs, with some lines before and after the 'dependency' error: kingfish:/var/log # uname -a Linux kingfish 2.4.21-215-smp #1 SMP Tue Apr 27 16:05:19 UTC 2004 x86_64 unknown May 20 23:55:42 kingfish ctl_cyrusdb[29242]: checkpointing cyrus databases May 20 23:55:42 kingfish ctl_cyrusdb[29242]: archiving database file: /var/lib/imap/mailboxes.db May 20 23:55:42 kingfish ctl_cyrusdb[29242]: archiving log file: /var/lib/imap/db/log.0000000002 May 20 23:55:42 kingfish ctl_cyrusdb[29242]: done checkpointing cyrus databases May 20 23:55:42 kingfish master[1502]: process 29242 exited, status 0 May 20 23:59:00 kingfish modprobe: modprobe: Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep (No such file or directory) May 20 23:59:00 kingfish /USR/SBIN/CRON[29245]: (root) CMD ( rm -f /var/spool/cron/lastrun/cron.hourly) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish modprobe: modprobe: Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep (No such file or directory) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish modprobe: modprobe: Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep (No such file or directory) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish /USR/SBIN/CRON[29251]: (root) CMD ( /usr/lib64/sa/sa2 -A #update reports every 6 hour) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish modprobe: modprobe: Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep (No such file or directory) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish /USR/SBIN/CRON[29254]: (root) CMD ( /usr/lib64/sa/sa1 ) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish modprobe: modprobe: Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep (No such file or directory) May 21 00:00:00 kingfish /USR/SBIN/CRON[29257]: (root) CMD ( test -x /usr/lib/secchk/security-control.sh && /usr/lib/secchk/security-control.sh daily &) May 21 00:00:01 kingfish master[29683]: about to exec /usr/lib/cyrus/bin/lmtpd Thank you in advance - Richard

Duh! You are so right. Since the reboot no messages at all. Does this possibly explain the crash at all? Was the crash bound to happen if I did not reboot after installing the kernel patch? Thanks again - Richard -----Original Message----- From: Anders Johansson [mailto:andjoh@rydsbo.net] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:06 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES 8 Crash and "Unable to find modules.dep" On Thursday 27 May 2004 19.40, Richard Mixon (qwest) wrote:

I did research further back and sometime after May 19th I started to get the message "Can't open dependencies file /lib/modules/2.4.19-SMP/modules.dep". It happens like 300 to 400 times per day. I believe that around that time I applied a kernel security patch for AMD64: Title: Security update for Linux kernel (AMD64)

You didn't get those messages before the update, right? And am I right in thinking you haven't gotten them after your reboot? I'm guessing you never rebooted your system after applying that kernel patch -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

* Brooks; on 27 May, 2004 wrote:

On Thursday 27 May 2004 11:57, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:>

PLEASE REPLY TO THE LIST PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME IN TO/CC maybe now you get it -- Togan Muftuoglu | Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer | Please reply to the list; http://susefaq.sf.net | Please don't put me in TO/CC. Nisi defectum, haud refiecendum

I am not sure that this is very productive. -----Original Message----- From: Brooks [mailto:brooksfamily@sunflower.com] Sent: 27 May 2004 19:17 To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] 9.1 Personal and lack of Gnome On Thursday 27 May 2004 13:00, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

PLEASE REPLY TO THE LIST PLEASE DO NOT PUT ME IN TO/CC

Maybe if you would just get to the point instead of sending cryptic messages like "if you can read and understand the lines in my signature" you would get quicker results. But I guess if you can't understand what a point is, it would be hard to get to one. Oops! There I go being cryptic. SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. SPEAK DIRECTLY. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thursday 27 May 2004 20:05, Mike wrote:

It was ever productive?  I think it _started_ as a KDE sux, Gnome rulz thread...

Man, once many of you see what you want to see you sure run with it. This started as a "Man, I didn't realize 9.1 Personal didn't come with Gnome as well and is really a limited bundle of software package" discussion. KDE, as I stated, is a great desktop. I was simply disappointed with how much was left out as compared to 9.0 (home edition) and I didn't think that getting 9.1 personal was worth it. It is better to just pay the extra $30 and get 9.1 Pro (upgrade version), I think. THAT'S ALL. NOTHING SUCKS. My only comparison was to say that I prefer Gnome. It's amazing how many people immediately jump to arms at the slightest whiff of criticism of SuSE or Linux. Many respond with snide, sarcastic comments that carry the inference of personal insult. People need to relax. Usually everyone is pretty helpful, but I guess the lesson is to never, ever give a criticism, negative or positive, or you'll be mobbed.

On Thursday 27 May 2004 21:03, Mike wrote:

My only comparison was to say that I prefer Gnome

*Only*? Although I'm sure I missed some, earlier in the thread you said (and said, and said... Yes, *ONLY*. Take note of the key words in my sentences. Here's a remedial reading lesson for you: These are called "opinion" statements. When I premise a discussion on "I prefer Gnome", such statements can be used to reinforce my premise.

...

I like Gnome and the way it works.

...

KDE (...) it's just not what I prefer. I PREFER I think KDE is harder to configure than Gnome. I THINK I think Gnome has a better Windoze feel to it than KDE as well. I THINK when someone new to linux is stuck with just KDE, they could get easily frustrated This is your only possible spot of complaint as, admittedly, it has a note of negativity toward KDE. However, if you had any real reading comprehension skills, you'd understand that this statement was in keeping with my point

I LIKE that 9.1 Personal was lacking in options and in software needed to use other programs. As I'm using 9.1 Personal, that is a statement of FACT. That is NOT the same as saying "KDE sucks" and neither are my OPINIONS on why I prefer Gnome. Can you distinguish between fact and opinion from what I've written here or do I need to break it down further for you?

...

I like Gnome I LIKE Gnome, to me, is easier to use. TO ME Gnome when, in my opinion, it's every bit as easy to use as KDE, and looks better as well. IN MY OPINION

I can't figure out if you're sincerely clueless, or a very clever troll. Perfect example of what I just wrote about. You imply that I'm dumb because you only see what you want to see. Come on, man. Why make this into a personal issue when all I've done is express dislike for a product (9.1 Personal) that I was mistaken about? It's not like I opened the discussion calling one of you a name or disparaging your character.

And, yes, I know I'm doing the same thing back to you. If you want to be a d-bag about an issue, then expect the same in return. Let me repeat, since you can obviously pick up on patterns, if not meaning (my hope is that you will pick up on my point, though it doesn't look likely right now): None of these statements says KDE is a bad product. They just mean that I like Gnome better than KDE. Is that too hard to comprehend? If my preference for Gnome offends any of you personally, then you need step away from the computer and seek more human interaction. By the way, I would be equally disappointed if 9.1 Personal had just Gnome and not KDE as well.

On Friday 28 May 2004 05:23, Richard Bos wrote:

Can one of you having suse-9.1 personal provide the contents of the following directory: /media/cdrom/suse/setup/descr . This must be taken from CD1!

brooks@84:/media/cdrecorder/suse/setup/descr> ls *.sel Basis-Sound-HOME.sel MINIMAL-HOME.sel X11-HOME.sel default-HOME.sel Office-HOME.sel Kde-Desktop-HOME.sel SuSE-Documentation-HOME.sel brooks@84:/media/cdrecorder/suse/setup/descr>

Nice long thread, let's contribute. Brooks wrote:

I did look. From what I saw, nothing lead me to believe that I would ONLY be getting KDE. The SuSE website is not clear about that and leaves you to infer it at best. Why did I not scrutinize the website harder? What reason would I have to do that? 9.0 (home version) came packaged with more than KDE while giving a great description of KDE and little more. If 9.0 came that way, why would I have reason to suspect 9.1 would be any different?? If the website had been more clear, I would have ordered 9.1 Professional Upgrade. It's that simple.

Ok, you know from now on, check the package descriptions on the website. It says exactly what is included. Whatever is not in the list, is not included. I don't really think it is a choice for KDE because it would be superior. I just think SuSE wanted to keep the price down. It is cheaper than the previous personal version, right? To keep the price down, it would best fit on one cd-rom (it used to be three cd's, right?). Then, on that limited space, you can either put a number of incomplete desktop packages or just choose for one and put the complete version on the cd. I think that is a good choice. Indeed, it comes with the "live cd", but I think that is nice. If you are really enthousiastic, you can borrow it to family and friends to check it out. I am not advocating KDE. In fact, I use Windowmaker, but I am no ex-MS-Windows user anyway. I switched straight from MS-Dos 5.0 to CLOS three years ago. No problem, I can easily obtain Windowmaker from it's website, can't you do that with Gnome? Good luck, Vinay

Brooks wrote:

...

I don't really think it is a choice for KDE because it would be superior. I just think SuSE wanted to keep the price down. It is cheaper than the previous personal version, right? To keep the price down, it would best fit on one cd-rom (it used to be three cd's, right?). Then, on that limited space, you can either put a number of incomplete desktop packages or just choose for one and put the complete version on the cd. I think that is a good choice.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The extra $10 that they were charging in 9.0 was still a great deal and absolutely worth it.

Yeah, I think that really depends on whether you use Gnome or not. For all those who didn't use Gnome anyway, a 25% reduction in price is a pretty nice deal. Those are the people who are not responding to this topic, but are happily checking out the new stuff. Don't think they are not there!

...

Indeed, it comes with the "live cd", but I think that is nice. If you are really enthousiastic, you can borrow it to family and friends to check it out.

I think this is something of a waste. If I want family and friends to see, they can come over and look at my desktop. I'd rather have the extra software for use on the second cd than what really amounts to a marketing tool.

...

No problem, I can easily obtain Windowmaker from it's website, can't you do that with Gnome?

Probably yes, for those who know how to compile packages and install things without rpms and YaST (or red carpet, or apt). I'm not one of those

Well ok, you think it is not nice, it think it is. You can think of more uses for it. For example if you currently use an other operating system and want to get used to SuSE (and KDE) before completely switching over, you can use the demo for that. There are probably more uses for it. I don't think it is a waste. people:

my skill and technical knowledge is not that high, and so, for me, no I can't do that with Gnome.

SuSE will probably soon make some GNOME-rpm's available for 9.1 just like they did for the older versions. Just have a little patience. Of course, you can also try to learn to compile it. This mailing list might come handy and of course, there are also some directions included in the source you're trying to compile. Some readme file. It might be worth a try. Being able to compile might also come handy in the future. You can start with something small first to learn it. Just notice that there are no compilers included in the personal edition either, but that has never been. Probably you can get them somewhere, I have an other topic running in this list about that. Good luck, Vinay

Brooks wrote on 05/28/2004 07:31:16 AM: [snip stuff]

...

Indeed, it comes with the "live cd", but I think that is nice. If you are really enthousiastic, you can borrow it to family and friends to check it out.

I think this is something of a waste. If I want family and friends to see, they can come over and look at my desktop. I'd rather have the extra software for use on the second cd than what really amounts to a marketing tool.

Probably yes, for those who know how to compile packages and install

without rpms and YaST (or red carpet, or apt). I'm not one of

Actually, it's more than just a marketing tool. It's also a useful discovery tool, when your friends' Windows systems, crash, and they wish to recover data, you'll probably be able to insert that LiveCD and burn their existing data directly to CD for them without having to beat yourself up about re-installing Windows. It is more than just a marketing tool. Did I say that already? <G> [snip] things thosepeople:

my skill and technical knowledge is not that high, and so, for me, no I can't do that with Gnome.

I'll give a difference perspective on this. I blew away 9.0 Pro and put 9.1 Personal on my son's computer. He was not impressed with the number of games that was included in Personal. He wants the Pro version. I wouldn't recommend the personal version either, EXCEPT in cases where people want the basic, minimum stuff. The KDE/Gnome stuff is moot. If someone wants to use a computer for basic stuff, I don't really think they're going to go ga-ga over one Windows manager or the other. Jon Johnston Creative Business Solutions IBM, Lotus, Microsoft Consultants http://www.cbsol.com 952-544-1108 Blog: http://bingo.cbsol.com