On Saturday 20 May 2006 07:06 pm, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Sat, 2006-05-20 at 22:50 -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

I've installed 10.1 on a lab rat machine and it went ok. The few glitches I've mentioned under 'General comments about 10.1".

I also installed it on an IBM Thinkpad X30 and it also went ok with the same glitches.

So having 'proofed' it so to speak, I attempted to install it on my main machine which is pretty stock.... an Intel board running a 2.8ghz Pentium, and an ATE Radeon card... the same as the lab rat machine.

It also has a Viewsonic LCD monitor which the lab rat didn't. The lab rat has a Viewsonic CRT monitor.

In any event, I cannot for the life of me get 10.1 to work with the LCD monitor even though it worked under 10.0. At this point, every time I try to use SAX2 to do any configuring, (even using the -l option) it screws up the monitor and then it is hard reset time.

The monitor wants to run at 1600x1200 at about 75hz but even bringing over the xorg.conf from 10.0 didn't make things work. (I'm using 10.0 to write this)

Even the install had to be interrupted because when I went to 'test configuration', it screwed up the monitor and it was hard reset time again.

NOTE: one thing I discovered in all this is that when SAX2 displays the current settings.... it shows (for me) VIEWSONIC VP201B which is correct. But it doesn't tell you that behind the scenes, it has no definitions for a VP201B. Maybe a VP201MB but it doesn't tell you that it DOESN"T KNOW SQUAT about your monitor. It just reports the correct monitor as obtained from the monitor itself and leads you to believe that it knows what it is doing. <NOT>

So at this point 10.1 is going in the trash as my main system. Too many problems. I remember throwing 8.1 in the trash too so maybe it's just the even-numbered DOT 1 systems that are no good. If so, I can live with that.

<PLONK>

If you have the driver disk for the monitor you should be able to install the settings from that.

I know what the monitor settings should be and tried them.... No go.

If you are throwing the box in the trash can you make sure it has my address on it first. :-)

I just might do that.

On Saturday 20 May 2006 07:14 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Trick (I used it with one of the RCs):

let sax2 do an automatic configuration run (--auto). I don't remember if it starts the xserver, better if it doesn't in your case. Then compare the newly created /etc/X11/xorg.conf file with the one in your working 10.0 version, and copy over the Modelines from the older one, and the modes from the "Screen" section. That's what I can think right now, but it worked for me.

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

On Saturday 20 May 2006 16:47, Bruce Marshall wrote:

Nope... didn't work. I was able to get it to come up using a 10.0 xorg.conf.install file at 1280x1024 but the display is pretty crappy.

Is 1280x1024 being reported by X/YaST/SaX2 from the box side or have you confirmed the mode with the OSD (on-screen display)?

And unfortunately..... I see to way to set the display to VESA in 10.1 either.

Can you select, under 'Monitor' in YaST or SaX2, the generic 'manufacturer' "--> VESA" using the appropriate resolutions and scan rates?

I'm going to check if ATI has anything that will work but if not it's a no-go for 10.1.

I'm beginning to sense the beginning of a trend... people having problems configuring graphics adapters and LCDs. Greg's problem (from the Planar PL 1910M thread) started looking like a known Intel video bios problem so he tried the '855resolution' patch... but the desired VESA settings were already present in the modes table... they just wouldn't 'stick'. My personal approach would be to hang a modern decent quality multisync capable crt-based monitor on the box... something that won't 'die' when it's hit with non-VESA or 'off-resolution' signals... just long enough to get the graphics adapter configuration nailed down. Only then would I switch to the problem LCD for further diagnostics and troubleshooting. Otherwise, I think there's a real danger of running in circles trying to debug both anomalies at the same time. just my 2 cents, Carl

On Saturday 20 May 2006 16:47, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Saturday 20 May 2006 19:56, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

On Saturday 20 May 2006 07:14 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Trick (I used it with one of the RCs):

let sax2 do an automatic configuration run (--auto). I don't remember if it starts the xserver, better if it doesn't in your case. Then compare the newly created /etc/X11/xorg.conf file with the one in your working 10.0 version, and copy over the Modelines from the older one, and the modes from the "Screen" section. That's what I can think right now, but it worked for me.

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Nope... didn't work. I was able to get it to come up using a 10.0 xorg.conf.install file at 1280x1024 but the display is pretty crappy.

I'm beginning to think that the 'radeon' modules in 10.1 are no good.

I was using ATI's code for 10.0 which must be the difference.

And unfortunately..... I see to way to set the display to VESA in 10.1 either.

I'm going to check if ATI has anything that will work but if not it's a no-go for 10.1. =======

Bruce, I remember reading a blurb during the install about the Radeon cards. They are using a new radeon module this time that adds extra features, although not all cards support those features. If you are having trouble, did you try the radeonold module? That's suppose to bring things back. sax2 -r -m 0=radeonold I thought mine was going to need that at first, but my 9200 pro seems quite happy with the new module, in fact very happy from my fps readings. :o) regards, Lee

Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Sunday 21 May 2006 12:08 am, BandiPat wrote:

...

=======

Bruce, I remember reading a blurb during the install about the Radeon cards. They are using a new radeon module this time that adds extra features, although not all cards support those features. If you are having trouble, did you try the radeonold module? That's suppose to bring things back.

sax2 -r -m 0=radeonold

I thought mine was going to need that at first, but my 9200 pro seems quite happy with the new module, in fact very happy from my fps readings.

Thanks.... I immediately went to try that.... but there is no radeonold module on the system. There's source for it in the kernel sources but no module was build apparently.

So I tried to go back and boot 10.0 ( I had been running 10.1 and trying to put up with the crappy fonts at 1280x1024) Now 10.0 was hanging up too... as soon at it tried to go to level 5.

Hmmm.... I didn't change anything, but both 10.1 and 10.0 share the same /home directory. Could it be that something is screwed up on my home directory now that prevents either system from starting graphics.

I replace /home with a backup disk that I use that had a skeleton directory for my normal user. Went to init 5 (on 10.0) and it came right up! Ok, *most* things are working then on 10.0.

I put my normal /home back and erase all the .DCOP* stuff, .Xauthority and .ICEauthority which were the only pertinent files that appeared to have changed in the last 24 hours.

Went to init 5 again and I am back on 10.0 and 1600x1200.

SOMETHING is drastically screwed up with graphics, or KDE or whatever on 10.1 and I don't think I am going to touch it again. If I do I am going to use a fresh /home partition and not let it mess with my normal /home.

I thought for a minute that having /home messed up might be the problem in getting into 1600x1200 on 10.1 but when starting SAX2 from a CLI, it shouldn't have anything to do with anything on /home. So the graphics are messed up to start with.

WHEW!!!!! I feel fortunate just to get back to 10.0 without having lost anything. It will be interesting to see how many other people suffer er, share the same fate with 10.1.

Have you tried the proprietary driver from ATI? Choose automatic installation first for ease of use but you can do a specific recompile if necessary but that means that you will have to recompile in future. Good luck Ralph

On Monday 22 May 2006 00:54, Carl Hartung wrote:

On Sunday 21 May 2006 11:07, Bruce Marshall wrote:

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Hmmm.... I didn't change anything, but both 10.1 and 10.0 share the same /home directory. Could it be that something is screwed up on my home directory now that prevents either system from starting graphics.

I've got 9.3, 10.0 and 10.1 coexisting nicely on this system. I have:

/home/carl93 /home/carl10 /home/carl10-1

Each started as 'pristine', i.e. as created during installation of the corresponding version. All were subsequently updated to KDE 3.5.2 level 'a' supplementary. Each has a discreet copy of the relatively static data (i.e. I've done a 'cp -rp' on .gnupg, .Skype, .gaim, mail *config* files and so on) but my /Documents and mail folders are symlinked to one dynamic data store... presently under /carl10.. so it doesn't matter which version I'm booted into, my data is always in 'sync'. When I'm confident that 10.1 is going to work the way I want it, I'll cp -rp the dynamic data over and modify my symlinks, accordingly.

This gives me two immediate 'fallback' systems that are compatible with my backups, which i keep on separate disks/partitions that are only mounted when I take the snapshots.

Dear Carl, Like your system of the separate home for the various versions. I had hem always named different with the same password but your system is better. I have though some problems with the expressions that you use. You talk about relatively static data (such as??) and then you copy cp -rp which I had to look up in the man page. recursive and preserve (ownership, timestamp). You preserve ownership? As you have started the systems fresh and most probably as the first user for the newest version, the files have the same ownership (=1000) or do I make a mistake here? What is recursive and why do you use it. For the moment I have 9.3 satisfactory working and 10.0 (perhaps 10.1 next week) a work in progress. As I worked on 10.0 and had fetchmail working I had to copy the newest mail to my kmail 9.3 to keep that complete. Symlinked data for Kmail Skype Firefox and Konquerer would be ideal to quietly work on the final setup of the newest version. I could do that with midnight commander but what is the command line to use?

On Sunday 21 May 2006 01:54 pm, Carl Hartung wrote:

On Sunday 21 May 2006 11:07, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

Hmmm.... I didn't change anything, but both 10.1 and 10.0 share the same /home directory. Could it be that something is screwed up on my home directory now that prevents either system from starting graphics.

My understanding is that sharing the same /home/{user}/ directory across releases is asking for trouble. The newer version updates whatever obsoleted parts it finds in the environment. This usually confuses the earlier version when it's booted. I would think these kinds of problems might be amplified in cases where the later version is, itself, somehow 'broken.'

I've got 9.3, 10.0 and 10.1 coexisting nicely on this system. I have:

/home/carl93 /home/carl10 /home/carl10-1

I agree with your approach. I've never had a problem with keeping the same /home but certainly there can be problems. At the very least /home should be backed up (which I do every night) so that things can be put back in place. However, using your approach, last night I gave 10.1 a different /home while I did some playing. Wasn't able to make any progress with 10.1 so I booted back to 10.0 only to find that the monitor would *still* hang. I have no idea why because I did some checking and could not find anything that looked like it was changed..... and it shouldn't have even been near 10.0. I restored my <home>/.kde directory and then everything worked. So it doesn't appear to be a total answer to the problems of booting between two releases.... (and 10.1 still won't work with my monitor at 1600x1200)

On Monday 22 May 2006 10:19 am, Carl Hartung wrote:

That's very odd. It pretty much defies the whole concept of isolating users from each other and from the 'core' system, doesn't it? Do you have other directories, like /var or /opt on separate partitions? My installations have everything but /home on '/'. I've also set in /etc/sysconfig to empty /tmp and /var/tmp on boot.

I, like you, only split out /home from an install. I have other partitions but they are system related and don't enter into a dual/triple boot situation. Beats me how things got tangled up.

...

(and 10.1 still won't work with my monitor at 1600x1200)

I just got through resetting all the resolutions for my monitor under 10.0 and, since 10.1 SaX2 isn't working quite the same, copying the 10.0 xorg.conf over. It worked. Maybe you need to do the same thing?

I did at one point copy over my xorg.conf until I realized that I was using the ATI proprietary drivers on 10.0 so I can't do that unless I can dig out an xorg.conf prior to changing to the proprietary stuff. I probably have one. In the meantime, I looked at the 10.1 xorg.conf.install. It shows that it is asking ONLY for 800x600 but yet the monitor goes into 1280x1024 mode. Maybe LCD monitors only run in a couple of resolutions? But it will run the monitor in that mode albeit crappy looking. I did a re-install last night and set the monitor at the install-time to LCD and 1600x1200 at a very low freq setting thinking that might be the safe road. But it still hung the system. It just appears that 10.1 is incapable of running my monitor at 1600 but yet my CRT monitor on another system runs fine at almost any resolution. I guess that's because the other monitor will try to fit the freqs given it whereas the LCD will not.

On Monday 22 May 2006 12:51, jdd sur free wrote:

Carl Hartung wrote:

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booted back to 10.0 only to find that the monitor would *still* hang.

That's very odd. It pretty much defies the whole concept of isolating users from each other and from the 'core' system,

don't forget one can't at all differenciate the monitor and the video card.

You're correct. I thought about persistent, incorrect display settings but then thought overwriting /.kde wouldn't clear that up. My multisync stores settings for each mode, but only when you customize them with the OSD. I've also had display adapters with behaviors as you've described. I'm still leaning towards a SaX2 / driver configuration issue affecting flat panel displays. There has certainly been a rash of similar sounding problems reported on SLE for 10.1. And there *is* a common denominator: flat panels typically have, relatively speaking, an extremely narrow range of modes that will work, whereast CRT based displays are analog at the output. They adapt much more easily to broader range of modes and don't have the same tendency to go 'black'. Carl

Bruce Marshall wrote:

Thanks.... I immediately went to try that.... but there is no radeonold module on the system.

In use an ATI Radeon VE card, without any problem :-( jdd@peter:/usr/X11R6/lib/modules/dri> ls ra* radeon_dri.so jdd@peter:/usr/X11R6/lib/modules/drivers> ls ra* radeon10b_drv.so radeon_drv.so radeonold_drv.so (10.1) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Sunday 21 May 2006 17:44, Bruce Marshall wrote:

I have an ATI card running nicely too.... on a CRT monitor.

Is this the same system that you were discussing earlier? Carl

Bruce Marshall wrote:

I'm beginning to think that the 'radeon' modules in 10.1 are no good.

I had a problem on my Thinkpad that required me to alter xorg.conf to use the 'radeon10b' module instead of just 'radeon'. I'm guessing it's graphics-chip specific, so YMMV. /Per Jessen, Zürich