Is sound management ready for the 'Linux Desktop'?
I've recently introduced my dear, grey haired old mother to the delights of computers and, seeing as she is using one of my machines, she will be using Linux, specifically Suse 9.2. While she has had a little experience of some Windows systems it's all fairly new to her, so watching her using a Linux desktop is quite revealing. It seems she gets stuck just as often with either OS, mainly with pop-ups and sudden change of focus of windows on the screen, along with silly things like typing e,s and c for the ESC key. We are using KDE along with applications like KMail. Obviously these things will come with practise and experience - the point to note being that the learning curve seems pretty much the same for Linux and Windows. The killer app that has fired up my mothers keenness to use the computer is Skype and it is the sound element that has proved to be a real stumbling block for her. I have many years of Linux experience, though I'm no expert, and it is sound that always seems to cause me the greatest amount of grief also. This begs the question, are the sound features in Linux letting the Desktop usage side down? The specific problem here with Skype was with setting up the 'voice capture' side of things. It works to a fashion now, after some Googling I started setting levels using alsamixer from a terminal, other mixers like KMix and KAMix didn't have a slider control for a 'Digital' element, which is required. It still isn't working quite right, this setting needs to be adjusted after every reboot - alsamixer isn't as GUI user friendly as I would want for my mother and is a cause of irritation. Can anyone tell me how I can set these in a more permanent fashion? I have found the way Linux handles sound to be a very confusing subject, confusing for a user since almost all of the documentation seems to be for the developer arena. Is it now time for this to change and make all of the sound features more user friendly. I am not talking about playback, that has been fairly flawless in it's automatic configuration in any Suse install I've done in the past few years. I'm talking of more complicated things like recording and capturing from other sources. Truth be told, I have no idea how well this stuff is handled in Windows either, nor do I care. I do know that if I have a problem trying to do some of this stuff in Linux and I turn to Google for help my head soon starts to spin with terms like aRTs and ALSA and a seemingly fraught battle between then for domination of my speaker socket. Are there any key pieces of knowledge about the sound systems that one should know to ever have a hope in understanding how it's all handled? Thanks for reading. -- Colin Murphy - Colin@SpudULike.me.uk
I've recently introduced my dear, grey haired old mother to the delights of computers and, seeing as she is using one of my machines, she will be using Linux, specifically Suse 9.2.
While she has had a little experience of some Windows systems it's all fairly new to her, so watching her using a Linux desktop is quite revealing. It seems she gets stuck just as often with either OS, mainly with pop-ups and sudden change of focus of windows on the screen, along with silly things like typing e,s and c for the ESC key. We are using KDE along with applications like KMail. Obviously these things will come with practise and experience - the point to note being that the learning curve seems pretty much the same for Linux and Windows. I relate as I put my 83 year old Dad on SuSE 9.0 (could upgrade but Why?) He is as happy as a clam in muddy water. Previously I was faced with a daily correction of his past use of MS Winblows. He picked it up and I never hear from him now for Computer problems. I yea! he did complain one time due to the fan on the power supply rattling. Fixed
The specific problem here with Skype was with setting up the 'voice capture' side of things. It works to a fashion now, after some Googling I started setting levels using alsamixer from a terminal, other mixers like KMix and KAMix didn't have a slider control for a 'Digital' element, which is required. It still isn't working quite right, this setting needs to be adjusted after every reboot - alsamixer isn't as GUI user friendly as I would want for my mother and is a cause of irritation. Can anyone tell me how I can set these in a more permanent fashion? Sid Boyce and I both have Skype working. Nothing to it. You will need the sound working. Use Yast2 and set it up - I found my mic. on
Colin Murphy wrote: the using "gamix" on Mic Playback and the output volume on "PCM" Sid is "sidders" and I am "n5xwbg" -- 73 de Donn Washburn Hpage: " http://www.hal-pc.org/~n5xwb " Ham Callsign N5XWB Email: " n5xwb@hal-pc.org " 307 Savoy St. HAMs: " n5xwb@arrl.net " Sugar Land, TX 77478 BMW MOA #: 4146 - Ambassador LL# 1.281.242.3256 " http://counter.li.org " #279316
On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 19:40 -0500, Donn Washburn wrote:
I've recently introduced my dear, grey haired old mother to the delights of computers and, seeing as she is using one of my machines, she will be using Linux, specifically Suse 9.2.
While she has had a little experience of some Windows systems it's all fairly new to her, so watching her using a Linux desktop is quite revealing. It seems she gets stuck just as often with either OS, mainly with pop-ups and sudden change of focus of windows on the screen, along with silly things like typing e,s and c for the ESC key. We are using KDE along with applications like KMail. Obviously these things will come with practise and experience - the point to note being that the learning curve seems pretty much the same for Linux and Windows. I relate as I put my 83 year old Dad on SuSE 9.0 (could upgrade but Why?) He is as happy as a clam in muddy water. Previously I was faced with a daily correction of his past use of MS Winblows. He picked it up and I never hear from him now for Computer problems. I yea! he did complain one time due to the fan on the power supply rattling. Fixed
The specific problem here with Skype was with setting up the 'voice capture' side of things. It works to a fashion now, after some Googling I started setting levels using alsamixer from a terminal, other mixers like KMix and KAMix didn't have a slider control for a 'Digital' element, which is required. It still isn't working quite right, this setting needs to be adjusted after every reboot - alsamixer isn't as GUI user friendly as I would want for my mother and is a cause of irritation. Can anyone tell me how I can set these in a more permanent fashion? Sid Boyce and I both have Skype working. Nothing to it. You will need the sound working. Use Yast2 and set it up - I found my mic. on
Colin Murphy wrote: the using "gamix" on Mic Playback and the output volume on "PCM"
Sid is "sidders" and I am "n5xwbg"
Are you able to get the alerts/ringing portion working? In other words, if someone calls you, does it ring? My choices for the device for this is grayed out. -- Cheers, Trey --- "I might repeat to myself slowly and soothingly, a list of quotations beautiful from minds profound - if I can remember any of the damn things." -- Dorothy Parker 9:04pm up 13:03, 4 users, load average: 0.09, 0.62, 0.47 Linux salamander 2.6.11.4-21.7-default #1 Thu Jun 2 14:23:14 UTC 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
Trey Sizemore wrote:
On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 19:40 -0500, Donn Washburn wrote:
Sid Boyce and I both have Skype working. Nothing to it. You will need the sound working. Use Yast2 and set it up - I found my mic. on the using "gamix" on Mic Playback and the output volume on "PCM"
Sid is "sidders" and I am "n5xwbg"
Are you able to get the alerts/ringing portion working? In other words, if someone calls you, does it ring? My choices for the device for this is grayed out.
Yes! it rings and the sound is normally very good but sometimes it has an echo or slight buffering. Matter of fact Sid and I talked about 1 hour last Sunday. It was 9:00PM CST which made it about 3:00AM GMT. That is the only problem. Kind of like open source telephone - Free! -- 73 de Donn Washburn Hpage: " http://www.hal-pc.org/~n5xwb " Ham Callsign N5XWB Email: " n5xwb@hal-pc.org " 307 Savoy St. HAMs: " n5xwb@arrl.net " Sugar Land, TX 77478 BMW MOA #: 4146 - Ambassador LL# 1.281.242.3256 " http://counter.li.org " #279316
On Wednesday 29 June 2005 01:19, Colin Murphy wrote:
I've recently introduced my dear, grey haired old mother to the delights of computers and, seeing as she is using one of my machines, she will be using Linux, specifically Suse 9.2.
While she has had a little experience of some Windows systems it's all fairly new to her, so watching her using a Linux desktop is quite revealing. It seems she gets stuck just as often with either OS, mainly with pop-ups and sudden change of focus of windows on the screen, along with silly things like typing e,s and c for the ESC key. We are using KDE along with applications like KMail. Obviously these things will come with practise and experience - the point to note being that the learning curve seems pretty much the same for Linux and Windows.
The killer app that has fired up my mothers keenness to use the computer is Skype and it is the sound element that has proved to be a real stumbling block for her. I have many years of Linux experience, though I'm no expert, and it is sound that always seems to cause me the greatest amount of grief also. This begs the question, are the sound features in Linux letting the Desktop usage side down?
The specific problem here with Skype was with setting up the 'voice capture' side of things. It works to a fashion now, after some Googling I started setting levels using alsamixer from a terminal, other mixers like KMix and KAMix didn't have a slider control for a 'Digital' element, which is required. Errrrrr Kmix does have a slider for digital it is labeled PCM i use Kmix only and have no problems with skype apart from the odd howl cause i cant stand headphones but even that is rare these days ,
You need the little red light to be on under the microphone slider a little mic gain to start with , The green lights above master and PCM both need to be on, PCM about half mast and Master volume to suit your self i split the master volume and set one speaker louder than the other this gets rid of the slight howl now and then . Theese settings are for Kmix and have worked ever since i first got skype (quite a while ago now ) You will normally find me nattering to Sid (sidders) as petenjr
It still isn't working quite right, this setting needs to be adjusted after every reboot - alsamixer isn't as GUI user friendly as I would want for my mother and is a cause of irritation. Can anyone tell me how I can set these in a more permanent fashion?
I have found the way Linux handles sound to be a very confusing subject, confusing for a user since almost all of the documentation seems to be for the developer arena. Is it now time for this to change and make all of the sound features more user friendly. I am not talking about playback, that has been fairly flawless in it's automatic configuration in any Suse install I've done in the past few years. I'm talking of more complicated things like recording and capturing from other sources.
I have found that most of the sound features seem to work well capture from most sources works well apart from i have not tried some of the more exotic digital formats aint got the gear aint likley to buy it either too expensive for me . The one thing i still cant work out is capturing video from DVD to disc . Oh and streaming audio i cant capture but have no tried recently and that is most likely just me doing something butt about face
Truth be told, I have no idea how well this stuff is handled in Windows either, nor do I care. I do know that if I have a problem trying to do some of this stuff in Linux and I turn to Google for help my head soon starts to spin with terms
like aRTs and ALSA and a seemingly fraught battle between then for domination of my speaker socket I have found recently that i have no problem with aRTS and the default KDE 3.4 settings work well i know some people say different but this may be with shall we say some more highly strung sound cards i use and a "Sound Blaster Live" (emu10k1) chip i have also used an Sound Blaster PCI64 that caused a bit if hassle but it worked as well mic PCM setting was as touchey as you like plus some look at it and howl or no audio , Had no problem with ALSA unless i try to enable the on-board sound chip then all hell breaks loose and sound is completely screwed so i dont use the on-board at all .
Pete . -- If Bill Gates had gotten LAID at High School do YOU think there would be a Microsoft ? Of course NOT ! You gotta spend a lot of time at your school Locker stuffing underware up your ass to think , I am going to take on the worlds Computer Industry -------:heard on Cyber Radio.:-------
On Wednesday 29 June 2005 09:05, Peter Nikolic wrote:
Errrrrr Kmix does have a slider for digital it is labeled PCM i use Kmix only and have no problems with skype apart from the odd howl cause i cant stand headphones but even that is rare these days ,
Errrrr, I don't doubt for one second that on your system KMix does as you say, it doesn't on mine. This only adds to the point I'm making about the sound systems in a Linux distribution. PCM does appear in all of the mixer programmes I've tried, but it doesn't help. In alsamixer I also have a PCM slider along with two other other sliders both labeled 'digital', only one of which does the trick. Why I need a 'digital' slider is a mystery, these are analogue headphones. The 'digital' slider does appear in some of the KDE mixer programmes but they don't seem to work from their. Only moving the slider in alsamixer works. I also have large number of other sliders that 'seem' to do nothing, but who can say???? Sliders with names like IEC958 and ADC
Theese settings are for Kmix and have worked ever since i first got skype (quite a while ago now )
But do you need to reset the slider positions everytime you reboot? I would still like to hear how I can set these from command line.
I have found that most of the sound features seem to work well capture from most sources works well apart from i have not tried some of the more exotic digital formats aint got the gear aint likley to buy it either too expensive for me . The one thing i still cant work out is capturing video from DVD to disc . Oh and streaming audio i cant capture but have no tried recently and that is most likely just me doing something butt about face
Maybe I am just expecting too much from my computer. I have been able to do some 'capture stuff - if that's the right word', like recording from a tape machine Line Out to Sound Card Line In, but only after an evenings worth of configuration.
I have found recently that i have no problem with aRTS and the default KDE 3.4 settings work well i know some people say different but this may be with shall we say some more highly strung sound cards i use and a "Sound Blaster Live" (emu10k1) chip i have also used an Sound Blaster PCI64 that caused a bit if hassle but it worked as well mic PCM setting was as touchey as you like plus some look at it and howl or no audio
I suppose this would be the thread where I should now ask about which sound cards have the best support. I have something that is reported to be a Yamaha DS-XG using the YMF744 drivers. It's about 3 years old, but then, so is the machine I'm using it in. I bought this card because it had an optical output for a connection to my Minidisc recorder, never really got that to work either. Since I use KDE I assume that I must also be using aRTs, but I also have ALSA installed. Is this correct, do the work together 'nicely'? I really would appreciate a basic understanding of the two of them and their relationship to each other. A more specific question. I make use of multiple user logins, the one machine has to meet the needs of several. What can I expect from the sound side of things when a machine is being used like this. What I would like to happen is for the sound output (and input) to be halted for the first user when a second user logs in and takes control giving them access to sound. Is this possible??? At the moment, if I am playing, say, an MP3 and someone else sits down at the machine and 'Switch User's to their login, my MP3 still plays over their session. In fact, even when I close down all sound applications from my login and allow someone else to start a session they don't get access to sound of their own anyway. I usually have to go through a dummy reconfiguration of the sound systems in Yast, to do, I suspect, a reset of the sound servers. Again, this is WAYYYYY kludgie, just another example what I think is wrong with sound systems under Linux. -- Colin Murphy - Colin@SpudULike.me.uk aka spudulike1964 on Skype
Colin Murphy wrote:
On Wednesday 29 June 2005 09:05, Peter Nikolic wrote:
Errrrrr Kmix does have a slider for digital it is labeled PCM i use Kmix only and have no problems with skype apart from the odd howl cause i cant stand headphones but even that is rare these days ,
e.g. I need to enable the 'Wave' Slider but depending on your soundcard there can be other settings (- and yes. This could be much clearer).
But do you need to reset the slider positions everytime you reboot? I would still like to hear how I can set these from command line.
alsactl store (to save the settings) alsactl restore (to restore the settings) (saving volumes in yast should do the same) Note that mixers like 'kmix' if enabled can also restore settings. Kmix has a setting for this. This comes after the alsactl restore call normaly perfomed during boot. Another thing you can do: For my former soundcard i used an executable Bash script in KDE's autostart folder using the amixer command to unmute sounds. This looked like (the commands like 'PCM' can be different per soundcard - see /etc/asound.state): /#!/bin/sh/ /#/ /# for my old soundcard/ /#amixer set 'VIA DXS',0 100%/ /#amixer set 'VIA DXS',1 100%/ /#amixer set 'VIA DXS',2 100%/ /#amixer set 'VIA DXS',3 100%/ amixer *set* PCM 80% unmute amixer *set* Master 40% unmute amixer *set* AC97 100% amixer *set* CD 50% unmute Peter Vollebregt
On Wednesday 29 June 2005 20:18, Colin Murphy wrote:
On Wednesday 29 June 2005 09:05, Peter Nikolic wrote:
Errrrrr Kmix does have a slider for digital it is labeled PCM i use Kmix only and have no problems with skype apart from the odd howl cause i cant stand headphones but even that is rare these days ,
Errrrr, I don't doubt for one second that on your system KMix does as you say, it doesn't on mine. This only adds to the point I'm making about the sound systems in a Linux distribution.
Doubt on i know how this box works you must have a strange sound card maybe a built in jobby
PCM does appear in all of the mixer programmes I've tried, but it doesn't help. In alsamixer I also have a PCM slider along with two other other sliders both labeled 'digital', only one of which does the trick. Why I need a 'digital' slider is a mystery, these are analogue headphones. The 'digital' slider does appear in some of the KDE mixer programmes but they don't seem to work from their. Only moving the slider in alsamixer works.
I also have large number of other sliders that 'seem' to do nothing, but who can say???? Sliders with names like IEC958 and ADC
Theese settings are for Kmix and have worked ever since i first got skype (quite a while ago now )
But do you need to reset the slider positions everytime you reboot? I would still like to hear how I can set these from command line.
No never needed to reset anything .. if you get it working and then need to reboot for some reason do not shut the mixer down just close KDE with the mixer open it then comes back in the same state you left it in ...
I have found that most of the sound features seem to work well capture from most sources works well apart from i have not tried some of the more exotic digital formats aint got the gear aint likley to buy it either too expensive for me . The one thing i still cant work out is capturing video from DVD to disc . Oh and streaming audio i cant capture but have no tried recently and that is most likely just me doing something butt about face
Maybe I am just expecting too much from my computer. I have been able to do some 'capture stuff - if that's the right word', like recording from a tape machine Line Out to Sound Card Line In, but only after an evenings worth of configuration.
I have found recently that i have no problem with aRTS and the default KDE 3.4 settings work well i know some people say different but this may be with shall we say some more highly strung sound cards i use and a "Sound Blaster Live" (emu10k1) chip i have also used an Sound Blaster PCI64 that caused a bit if hassle but it worked as well mic PCM setting was as touchey as you like plus some look at it and howl or no audio
I suppose this would be the thread where I should now ask about which sound cards have the best support. I have something that is reported to be a Yamaha DS-XG using the YMF744 drivers. It's about 3 years old, but then, so is the machine I'm using it in. I bought this card because it had an optical output for a connection to my Minidisc recorder, never really got that to work either.
I have a machine using the YMF774 drivers an old intel box that always worked well for sound output but was always a bit Hummmmm for capture the sound blaster live seems to work well may not top of the heap for quality but good enough BTW i also use the machine as a juke box for parties on the same sound card and never get complaints (average age around 45 no raves just headbangers) ..
Since I use KDE I assume that I must also be using aRTs, but I also have ALSA installed. Is this correct, do the work together 'nicely'? I really would appreciate a basic understanding of the two of them and their relationship to each other.
A more specific question. I make use of multiple user logins, the one machine has to meet the needs of several. What can I expect from the sound side of things when a machine is being used like this. What I would like to happen is for the sound output (and input) to be halted for the first user when a second user logs in and takes control giving them access to sound.
Is this possible???
I believe it should work like so but there are bound to be people with more knowledge than me on that one .
At the moment, if I am playing, say, an MP3 and someone else sits down at the machine and 'Switch User's to their login, my MP3 still plays over their session. In fact, even when I close down all sound applications from my login and allow someone else to start a session they don't get access to sound of their own anyway. I usually have to go through a dummy reconfiguration of the sound systems in Yast, to do, I suspect, a reset of the sound servers. Again, this is WAYYYYY kludgie, just another example what I think is wrong with sound systems under Linux.
-- Colin Murphy - Colin@SpudULike.me.uk aka spudulike1964 on Skype
-- If Bill Gates had gotten LAID at High School do YOU think there would be a Microsoft ? Of course NOT ! You gotta spend a lot of time at your school Locker stuffing underware up your ass to think , I am going to take on the worlds Computer Industry -------:heard on Cyber Radio.:-------
participants (6)
-
Colin Murphy -
Donn Washburn -
Kastus -
Peter Nikolic -
Peter Vollebregt -
Trey Sizemore