Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Monday 01 December 2008 08:25, Dave Howorth wrote:

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Randall R Schulz wrote:

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If you have multiple computers, how does one get them to all initiate the desired actions when main power fails and the UPS takes over? I don't know about other s/w but the apcupsd software has a networked mode for this situation.

So the one computer to which the UPS is connected (via USB, presumably) handles the direct notifications from the UPS and then in turn notifies dependent systems via the LAN? And you don't have to hack that together yourself? Both the local and remote sides are supported directly by apcupsd? If so, that sounds pretty good.

I was thinking you could script such things, but it seems tedious, clunky and more work to test than I'd care to undertake.

apcupsd has quite a few plugins for several systems ready to run. I have a small SmartUPS 750 at home that is controlled via usb by my main linux server: ## apcupsd.conf v1.1 ## UPSNAME SmartUPS750 UPSCABLE usb UPSTYPE usb DEVICE LOCKFILE /var/lock ONBATTERYDELAY 8 BATTERYLEVEL 5 MINUTES 2 TIMEOUT 10 ANNOY 300 ANNOYDELAY 60 NOLOGON disable KILLDELAY 0 NETSERVER on NISIP 0.0.0.0 NISPORT 3551 EVENTSFILE /var/log/apcupsd.events EVENTSFILEMAX 0 #POLLTIME 10 NETTIME 10 STATTIME 1 STATFILE /var/log/apcupsd.status LOGSTATS off DATATIME 0 You don't even have to tell the master which clients want to receive notifications unlike the old master/slave configuration. The client only needs to know where the NIS master is: ## apcupsd.conf v1.1 ## UPSCABLE ether UPSTYPE net DEVICE ip.of.ser.ver:3551 POLLTIME 20 NETSERVER on NISIP 127.0.0.1 NISPORT 3551 UPSCLASS standalone UPSMODE disable apcupsd even provides a plugin for my ipcop firewall. The bigger ups of my company has a network interface that I can poll directly from all clients. -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) japantest (.) homelinux (.) com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Monday 01 December 2008 08:31, James Knott wrote:

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Randall R Schulz wrote:

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Hi,

Seeing the recent mention of UPS (on the thread "Of software RAID on SUSE Linux") a question came to mind:

If you have multiple computers, how does one get them to all initiate the desired actions when main power fails and the UPS takes over?

Randall Schulz ... Of course, with the cost of a UPS these days, why not have one for each computer, especially since the more computers you have on the UPS, the shorter time it will support them.

I thought of that, too, but presumably any given amount of energy storage is going to cost less if it comes in a single package with a single set of the other (non-battery) hardware, right?

In theory. However once you move into a larger UPS, you move out of cheap consumer level devices. Industrial quality costs a lot more. For example, my employer sells a 1000 VA UPS for $228. For that amount, I could buy 3 550VA or 2 750 VA units at the local office supply store. At that same store, a 1000 VA UPS sells for more than twice what we charge. Of course, running multiple computers off the same UPS requires they be close enough to do so. You can of course get much larger systems, to support an entire office, but then you're talking a *LOT* of money. (Last year I was at one site that had a IIRC 300 KVA UPS to power a police headquarters communications system.) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Erland Moller wrote:

Don't forget that with a bigger/more expensive UPS, most of the time you have the advantage of hot-swappable battery's and/or a bypass function plus the ability to shut down more than one server if things go wrong. Most of the small UPS's have to be shut-down to swap the battery's. Furthermore with the big UPS's the battery voltage is higher resulting in low amp's on the battery's resulting in longer lifetime.

Erland, I think you're talking very large UPS'es here - I haven't seen anything less than 25kVA with hot-swappable batteries. Bypass mode yes, but hot-swappable batteries is another level. /Per -- /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Erland Moller wrote:

Per Jessen schreef:

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Erland Moller wrote:

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Don't forget that with a bigger/more expensive UPS, most of the time you have the advantage of hot-swappable battery's and/or a bypass function plus the ability to shut down more than one server if things go wrong. Most of the small UPS's have to be shut-down to swap the battery's. Furthermore with the big UPS's the battery voltage is higher resulting in low amp's on the battery's resulting in longer lifetime.

Erland, I think you're talking very large UPS'es here - I haven't seen anything less than 25kVA with hot-swappable batteries. Bypass mode yes, but hot-swappable batteries is another level.

/Per

I beg to differ. I have at home a Powerware 4000 VA UPS with external/hot-swappable battery's. At the company i work i have tested/replaced a lot of batery-packs from ups's ranging from 1500 VA up to 40 KVA Every company that delivers ups's should use hot-swappable battery's since this is the weakness of a UPS.

That would depend on whether you can tolerate a planned shut down or have other protection measures. For example, I have an IBM Netfinity server. It can have up to 3 redundant power supplies, but can run on one. If I have to kill one AC feed to change a battery, so what? I still have 100% power redunancy and could tolerate another failure. Multiple power feeds are common in critical equipment. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-12-01 at 15:58 -0500, James Knott wrote:

used to work. On these, the incoming AC ran a motor, which turned an alternator & 8 ton flywheel. When the power died, a clutch would connect the shaft to a diesel engine. The flywheel started the diesel, while maintaining speed for the alternator. One disadvantage to this system, was the output power was slightly lower frequency than the input, which caused the real time clock in some computers to run slow.

That can be overcome. You have the same setup, but the output of the alternator feeds a rectifier-inverter setup, which maintains frequency and voltage while there is enough speed left in the flywheel (as the speed gets lower, the current increases to compensate).

In that same building we also had some turbine & diesel standby (not UPS) power and a huge battery type UPS. There were also banks of batteries & rectifiers supplying about 7000 amps @ 48V for all the telecom gear. (There were other batteries supplying +-60V and 24V power) This was in a telecom central office that also housed the Air Canada reservation system and several other message switching computer systems. There were so many large batteries that some of the floors in that building had to be specially reinforced.

Most telephone equipment are fed directly from batteries at 48 volts, so they don't need inverters, nor UPS fast takeover and such things. If computers used the same setup, replacing the 120(230) volts power supply with a 12 or 24 volts DC power supply, some things would be easier. In fact, I did see a computer power supply with a 12v dc input some years ago. I thought I would see more of them, but that has not been so. I wonder why :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAkk0Yq4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WuhwCcC1c67OP9ip4FkGr64R8LJ9c7 +ckAmK5sFLEDghOXQTtpi1e2xMp2xHY= =AEnW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 17:43 -0500, James Knott wrote:

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Most telephone equipment are fed directly from batteries at 48 volts, so they don't need inverters, nor UPS fast takeover and such things. If computers used the same setup, replacing the 120(230) volts power supply with a 12 or 24 volts DC power supply, some things would be easier.

Most of the telecom gear was supplied from the 48V supplies. Some servers, intended for large installations, can run off high voltage

...

150V DC. The purpose of this is to reduce the losses in power supplies in UPS & computers, as well as resistance losses in the cables.

In fact, I did see a computer power supply with a 12v dc input some years ago. I thought I would see more of them, but that has not been so. I wonder why :-?

...

From a technical view point, it wouldn't be difficult to modify a computer power supply to operate from DC, at a voltage that's similar to what that supply creates from AC. In computer power supplies, the incoming AC is rectified to some DC voltage. That DC power is then used to run an inverter that converts it down to the voltages required by the computer. If you supply the appropriate high voltage DC, you can bypass the AC input & rectifiers. Such a supply could be easily designed to run off 12V. You might be able to find some with Google.

When ordering servers from HP, you can specify whether you want AC-power adapters (110 - 230Vac) or 48Vdc-apapters. Only catch is that you have to be carefull that in telco-stuff the plus is grounded, while other equipment (like RF-transmission) use negative-grounding. Unless you are fond of sparks and welding, you're in for a nasty surprice.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 11:43 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Tuesday, 2008-12-02 at 09:29 +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote:

... [dc power]

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When ordering servers from HP, you can specify whether you want AC-power adapters (110 - 230Vac) or 48Vdc-apapters.

Only catch is that you have to be carefull that in telco-stuff the plus is grounded, while other equipment (like RF-transmission) use negative-grounding.

Unless you are fond of sparks and welding, you're in for a nasty surprice..

A coworker once fell down from a... what do you call it, a portable stairs, when he was connecting power at a exchange, with a screwdriver on his hands. This fell across the two naked dc lines... after some sparks an entire island resulted without cellular coverage for some hours :-}

I wonder, those servers you mention, can be adapted to both type of grounding? And how is the price compared to ac power unit, if you remember? Not a figure, just curious to know if they are more expensive or not.

Hi, At my previous job, one of my friends dropped a screwdriver on those copper bars. Slight hickup, but after a moment the screwdriver was melted... AFAIR, both versions oft the psu were expensive, well, you you what the abbreviation HP means: High Priced ;-) Not sure about the grounding, execpt that they sell dedicated Microsoft-versions, that have both types of grounding combined... At my current positions they use inverters for each 19" cabinet and a couple of their own generators -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2008-12-02 at 07:31 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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A coworker once fell down from a... what do you call it, a portable stairs, when he was connecting power at a exchange, with a screwdriver on his hands. This fell across the two naked dc lines... after some sparks an entire island resulted without cellular coverage for some hours :-}

Anyone with experience in telecom could probably tell about similar situations.

I guess so. They are funny, afterwards, and from outside. Not very funny for the chaps that had extra work, or those that payed the anoyed clients :-) (and the culprit there is the push for lower costs, implying less security: the screwdriver didn't have the metal covered with plastic) never mind. Anyway, back to linux and UPS... there is nothing abosolutely safe and secure. Even an UPS would need to be doubled.

...

I wonder, those servers you mention, can be adapted to both type of grounding? And how is the price compared to ac power unit, if you remember? Not a figure, just curious to know if they are more expensive or not.

As I mentioned in another note, it's often your choice, though I don't know specifically about HP. Modern power supplies are switchers, which convert the incoming power (AC or DC) to high frequency AC, passed through a transformer and then rectified, filtered & regulated at the desired output voltage(s).

Right.

Because the supply input and output are separated by that transformer, they can be completely isolated and grouded as required. So, on equipment, you'll find +, - and ground terminals, with no connection between ground and either power terminal.

Sounds good :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk1LVMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VBkgCdHYrEP25nhv+UqDv3NqDYVlIp cmUAnjyqN5KRhNRxbPGeE8jAAuh83b+Z =IkTg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 01 December 2008 12:58, James Knott wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

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... I think you're talking very large UPS'es here - I haven't seen anything less than 25kVA with hot-swappable batteries. Bypass mode yes, but hot-swappable batteries is another level.

And those would of course be the whole office kind of UPS, not the stick them under your desk so that you can kick them type.

Personally, I avoid hardware I can't kick once in a while. My job is very frustrating...

...

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 01 December 2008 15:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Monday, 2008-12-01 at 14:46 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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And those would of course be the whole office kind of UPS, not the stick them under your desk so that you can kick them type.

Personally, I avoid hardware I can't kick once in a while. My job is very frustrating...

ROTFL!

I hope you don't kick hard disks... they don't like it. I know from personal experience they don't ;-)

So you're saying that if I stop kicking boxes with hard drives in them, I'll probably experience less frustration? I never thought of that...

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 01 December 2008 15:29, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Randall R Schulz [12-01-08 18:13]:

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So you're saying that if I stop kicking boxes with hard drives in them, I'll probably experience less frustration? I never thought of that...

There is always, rose-colored glasses

:^)

And beer.

-- Patrick Shanahan

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:05:45 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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There is always, rose-colored glasses

:^)

And beer.

Michelob

No, no, no, he said "beer". ;-) (SCNR) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-12-01 at 15:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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Personally, I avoid hardware I can't kick once in a while. My job is very frustrating...

ROTFL!

I hope you don't kick hard disks... they don't like it. I know from personal experience they don't ;-)

So you're saying that if I stop kicking boxes with hard drives in them, I'll probably experience less frustration? I never thought of that...

But of course! First, you vent your frustration kicking a box. The HD, that happens to be active, has a rough landing, you loos data, you have to replace the HD recovering data from the backup, and you end doubly frustrated ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk0fQoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U8bgCfbDrlYW86oiuBre+LJH6+EvVk BEIAn14A6nl3zNblfQZ8aBkopSPM4DgP =wd0e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

----- Original Message ----- From: "Per Jessen" To: Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [opensuse] UPS And Multiple Computers Erland Moller wrote:

...

Don't forget that with a bigger/more expensive UPS, most of the time you have the advantage of hot-swappable battery's and/or a bypass function plus the ability to shut down more than one server if things go wrong. Most of the small UPS's have to be shut-down to swap the battery's. Furthermore with the big UPS's the battery voltage is higher resulting in low amp's on the battery's resulting in longer lifetime.

Erland, I think you're talking very large UPS'es here - I haven't seen anything less than 25kVA with hot-swappable batteries. Bypass mode yes, but hot-swappable batteries is another level.

---- I hot-swap batteries in 1 to 3 kva apc's all the time. It's not always a one-step tray-in-socket like a hot-swap harddrive tray, but, a common 2200kva 2u or 3u rackmount apc has a door that opens on the front and you can disconnect the plug inside, pull the batts out and put new ones in and reconnect the plug, all while on-line. If your unit has the connector on the back for extra external batts for more run-time, then you don't even ever lose protection. The power could go out while you are changing the internal batts and it would run on the externals. And of course the externals can be changed any time since they are just connected by a cable & a special plug anyways. Really any ups batts can be changed while on-line, as long as you can physically get to the battery. The small ones make this a little dicey just because you don't want to be having to move the ups around to tip it on it's side or turn it upside down whil all the cords to the production servers are plugged i the back because of the risk of pulling a plug out. It would be better, but not strictly necessary, to schedule a graceful shutdown than to risk losing power during the 20 seconds while you have the battery unplugged or risk pulling a server power plug while moving a cheap small ups upside down. To me hot-swap means "swap while hot", not "is convenient to swap". The more important factor is that better ups's constantly condition the power and are always on-line, where the cheap ones directly connect you to the dirty wall power as long as there is wall power. -- Brian K. White brian@aljex.com http://www.myspace.com/KEYofR +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++. filePro BBx Linux SCO FreeBSD #callahans Satriani Filk! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Monday 01 December 2008 08:31, James Knott wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Hi,

Seeing the recent mention of UPS (on the thread "Of software RAID on SUSE Linux") a question came to mind:

If you have multiple computers, how does one get them to all initiate the desired actions when main power fails and the UPS takes over?

Randall Schulz ... Of course, with the cost of a UPS these days, why not have one for each computer, especially since the more computers you have on the UPS, the shorter time it will support them.

I thought of that, too, but presumably any given amount of energy storage is going to cost less if it comes in a single package with a single set of the other (non-battery) hardware, right?

Randall Schulz

One other thing. There are two variables in a UPS. The label rating, usually expressed in VA (volt amps) or KVA specifies how much power that UPS can handle. It does not refer to how long it can hold up the load. That time is determined by the battery capacity, which is usually specified in Ampere hours or current over time. For example, a 100 AH battery can provide 100 amps for 1 hour or 1 amp for 100 hours etc. Since consumer level UPSs usually have 12 volt batteries, you have to divide that Ah rating by 10, to allow for the fact that the UPS output is about 120V. UPS manufacturers will generally provide a table, listing expected times for various loads. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 01 December 2008 08:38, Jim Flanagan wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

...

If you have multiple computers, how does one get them to all initiate the desired actions when main power fails and the UPS takes over?

...

There is another more generic daemon for ups called Nut. I've not used that but have looked at it in the past. I know this is light on details, but can give more later if needed.

No, that's fine. It's what I was hoping for, basically. Thanks. To everyone.

Jim F

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org