[opensuse] zypper (zypp.conf - solver.onlyRequires) what logic governs package selection (recommends)?
All, What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total. With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" .... The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality. You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered. Now you may consider that to be 'fine grained' in the sense that lead pellets of buckshot are finer grained than a single hard bullet, but I see it as a generic solution in case a similar problem arises in the future. "Mow then down with the single swipe of the sword". If the solver really really sees no alternative but using a 32-but library because you have asked it to install a 32-but app (like Adobe Reader -- acroread) it will explicitly ask to unlock the needed libraries. As in 'then and then only' Yes, Adobe Reader is a good baseline, but I've managed to find functionality elsewhere and have purged by system of 32-bit apps and libraries. The question then becomes "Do you really need a 32-but application?" (I suppose you could make this generic: if you are using zypper and other CLI do you really need Yast? Then do you really need Ruby? If your web subsystem uses python do you really need perl? And for those of us that grew up with UNIX V7 on the memory and disk challenged PDP-11 working with Henry Spenser, if you can do it with a shell script do you really need the (resource consuming) compiled binary?) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 14/06/2020 18.41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" ....
The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality.
You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered.
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 14/06/2020 13:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/06/2020 18.41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" ....
The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality.
You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered.
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all.
No, that's not how it works with zypper. Zypper will NOT 'fail silently'. If you do explicitly request an installation of a 32-bit application that needs a 32-bit library that is locked, zypper will say so and ask if you want it unlocked. BTDT. There is no reason to install every 32-but library or every language file just because you have the disk space to do so. That makes no sense. if you follow that principle then why not install everything there is in every repository there is ... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 14/06/2020 21.32, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 14/06/2020 13:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 14/06/2020 18.41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" ....
The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality.
You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered.
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all.
No, that's not how it works with zypper. Zypper will NOT 'fail silently'.
I did not mean zypper. I meant whatever you install with no recommends.
If you do explicitly request an installation of a 32-bit application that needs a 32-bit library that is locked, zypper will say so and ask if you want it unlocked. BTDT.
There is no reason to install every 32-but library or every language file just because you have the disk space to do so. That makes no sense. if you follow that principle then why not install everything there is in every repository there is ...
It does make sense, that's what I'm saying. One day you click or select an option in an application and it simply fails, because it needs what was considered optional by someone, and was thus only recommended and not installed. And, depending on the programmer, it will tell you that whatever library or application is missing, or will just fail silently. And this may happen a year after installation, so you will have forgotten about the recommends. And yes, I have seen this happening. I prefer to live in some comfort. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:53:33 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all.
Ooh! Go and wash your mouth out immediately. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op zondag 14 juni 2020 19:53:33 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 14/06/2020 18.41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given
package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting
solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" ....
The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality.
You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered.
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all. For once I agree with you 99.9%, Carlos. Having the 'recommends' doesn't hurt. For the reason you mention. The 0.1% is that some packages recommend Texlive, which doubles the number of packages on my install.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> [06-14-20 17:54]:
Op zondag 14 juni 2020 19:53:33 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 14/06/2020 18.41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given
package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting
solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" ....
The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality.
You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered.
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all. For once I agree with you 99.9%, Carlos. Having the 'recommends' doesn't hurt. For the reason you mention. The 0.1% is that some packages recommend Texlive, which doubles the number of packages on my install.
And I can "plus 1" this as I have been employing "--no-recommends" for quite some years now utilizing quite a few "non-official" repos w/o the mentioned difficulty(s). And as I only speak one language, I remove all the lang packages. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op zondag 14 juni 2020 23:57:44 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:
* Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> [06-14-20 17:54]:
Op zondag 14 juni 2020 19:53:33 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 14/06/2020 18.41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 13/06/2020 23:56, David C. Rankin wrote:
All,
What controls what is and what is NOT a recommended package for any given
package install? 15.2 and I went to install dvd+rw-tool, libdvdread, libdvdnav4 and libdvdcss2 with the 32-bit versions of those with them. 6 packages total.
With zypper in there were 85 packages selected for install?? Setting
solver.onlyRequires = true (or --no-recommends) reduces the number to 8. A 10-fold decrease in the number of packages. So what controls all of the recommends? (most were counter-part 32-bit libraries for everything on the system since a 32-bit version of libdvdnav4 was specified). Is there any finer-grained control other than just the --no-recommends hammer?
Not that three's anything wrong with "solver.onlyRequires = true" ....
The nice thing about using zypper rather than the yast/gui is that you have the shell, so you can use CLI functionality.
You can do a 'zypper search' for all the 32-bit libraries, filter though 'awk' or 'cut' to get just the names and use that list with 'zypper al' to lock them so that they never get loaded or considered.
But then you expose yourself to one day an application needing one of those recommended but not required packages, and failing silently. Who cares!? Disk is cheap, install them all.
For once I agree with you 99.9%, Carlos. Having the 'recommends' doesn't hurt. For the reason you mention. The 0.1% is that some packages recommend Texlive, which doubles the number of packages on my install.
And I can "plus 1" this as I have been employing "--no-recommends" for quite some years now utilizing quite a few "non-official" repos w/o the mentioned difficulty(s). And as I only speak one language, I remove all the lang packages. Yeah, in your case you don't need those.I do run apps in other languages ( NL, EN, DE, FR ) for support reasons. But having them is not a security risk, and disk space is cheap. And a 500/50 Mbit/sec connection is neither a reason to not have them. When I used to run EN only, I locked the *-lang packages before installing the recommends.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/14/2020 11:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
The question then becomes "Do you really need a 32-but application?"
(I suppose you could make this generic: if you are using zypper and other CLI do you really need Yast? Then do you really need Ruby? If your web subsystem uses python do you really need perl? And for those of us that grew up with UNIX V7 on the memory and disk challenged PDP-11 working with Henry Spenser, if you can do it with a shell script do you really need the (resource consuming) compiled binary?)
Sometimes I DO want various 32-but libraries so I can use a 32-bit gcc build target when building various applications (or just answering 32-bit questions on StackOverflow). But I don't want every 32-bit package automatically selected for install if I choose one or two 32-bit libs to install. I guess that is basically what the solver is doing. Says "guy wants one 32-bit lib, so he must want them ALL..." I hope there is more logic to it than that, but that pretty much matches what I see. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 14/06/2020 15:25, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 06/14/2020 11:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
The question then becomes "Do you really need a 32-but application?"
(I suppose you could make this generic: if you are using zypper and other CLI do you really need Yast? Then do you really need Ruby? If your web subsystem uses python do you really need perl? And for those of us that grew up with UNIX V7 on the memory and disk challenged PDP-11 working with Henry Spenser, if you can do it with a shell script do you really need the (resource consuming) compiled binary?)
Sometimes I DO want various 32-but libraries so I can use a 32-bit gcc build target when building various applications (or just answering 32-bit questions on StackOverflow). But I don't want every 32-bit package automatically selected for install if I choose one or two 32-bit libs to install.
I guess that is basically what the solver is doing. Says "guy wants one 32-bit lib, so he must want them ALL..." I hope there is more logic to it than that, but that pretty much matches what I see.
I'm not sure of that, but then I started from having the 32-bit locked so when I've installed 32-but apps zypper has asked about specific and on the required specific libraries to be unlocked, keeping it minimalist. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Patrick Shanahan