-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2017-12-17 at 18:58 -0800, L A Walsh wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I use NTFS for that purpose, I don't know any better.

/If/ you have a second machine, as server, you could set both samba and nfs on the same share; then import it in Windows via samba, and on Linux via NFS. Both would /see/ their own set of permissions and features, although the samba ones are emulations, not really written to disk (at least not if the underlying filesystem is Linux type).

--- I was under the impression that the Windows permissions were stored in extended attributes so that any Samba clients would be able to get consistent information regarding access.

I don't know about that :-?

It seems it would be safest and of most consistency to access a "share" with the same protocol. In *past* benchmarks, I've found SMB/CIFS to yield better performance than NFS -- especially for Windows clients, but that was some time ago.

Most of the delay in SMB/CIFS I see these days comes from the protocol being cpu bound on either the server or client depending on the application transmission unit and whether it is a reader or writer.

Not good if it is CPU bound. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo4QuoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VjcQCbBrLNQH0s5zobCyhoy28gGYxR dmMAn353+B5hFdIy10Tk2JGE7EYL+tHb =kTWG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2017-12-22 at 20:04 -0800, L A Walsh wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Most of the delay in SMB/CIFS I see these days comes from the protocol being cpu bound on either the server or client depending on the application transmission unit and whether it is a reader or writer.

Not good if it is CPU bound.

True -- could be a reason why Win10 disables ethernet device teaming -- the SMB2.1 protocol can't keep up and why SMB3 implements ability for a single file-transfer to be split among multiple TCP connections.

Through SMB2.1 (in Win7), CIFS only uses 1 connection between a server and a client, which limits it to 1 cpu on the receiver and on the sender.

Although, of note, to reach cpu saturation points, my client Win7 is still able to read at 450MB/s and write at 224MB/s (using a 10Gb ethernet limited to 8Gb due both my machines being limited to first generation PCIe bus speeds. Current PCIe bus version is up to 3.x, but both of those machines were still using PCIe 1.x.

A newer client seems to be running about 100MB/s faster on reads ~ 566MB/s.

Both of those are raw device speeds WITHOUT file I/O.

The faster I can go is gigabit cable, anyhow, so all that is above me :-)

Also, prefix NOTE:

Speeds referencing 'Bytes' (capital 'B', use base2 prefixes for consistency, vs. those using 'bits' (lower case 'b' use base10) as Bytes are already a power of 2 (2**3) and mixing a power of 2 unit with power-of-10 prefixes introduces conversion inaccuracies. I note that memory makers referencing sizes in Bytes, also use power of 2(**10) prefixes (KB, MB, GB = 1024, 1024**2, 1024**3), but materials using 'bits' kb, mb, gb refer to power of 10(**3) amounts.

This is incorrect. Units like MB are now always a power of ten, while MiB is a power of two. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlpCsvsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wj7gCfXKFZbJnQMgphcJi2/dwrHWOx XJUAn3FPliaJJtBmsm5YoOmtyHpLGvm0 =M+aD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/12/2017 à 01:07, David C. Rankin a écrit :

I certainly prefer the VM to dual boot.

I had problems with usb device not seen by the VM, but didn't test recently, may be it have been corrected since thanks jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/12/2017 à 11:08, nicholas cunliffe a écrit :

use vbox, setup an ntfs shared partition for documents and you can fluidly use the documents between vm and host. i dont see the issue with ntfs permissions for docs etc.

permissions are not the same (bad for backups), neither are file names, so definitively not an option for archives I never found really satisfactory solution. Best is to have two computers with each a system and share by network jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/12/2017 à 12:29, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

"I don't know why vmware doesn't make visible to guests any of the sticks I plug in :-("

yes, and it may need guest additions to catch from oracle jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2017-12-16 at 21:06 +0100, David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

More recently I had problems with some USB stick not been seen on the guest:

https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2017-07/msg00096.html

"I don't know why vmware doesn't make visible to guests any of the sticks I plug in :-("

ISTR, that you need usbfs mounted...

==== /etc/fstab ==== usbfs /proc/bus/usb usbfs auto 0 0 ====

$ mount |grep usb usbfs /proc/bus/usb usbfs rw,relatime 0 0

Isn't that obsolete? Anyway, it worked months ago, then stopped working at some point. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo1pmQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WknwCfXK23wmsiNknjccVm299GSPRR 4q8An0d/ZU8moCUFKE8m1++azuI5szy/ =8DIr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/16/2017 1:32 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 16/12/2017 à 01:07, David C. Rankin a écrit :

...

I certainly prefer the VM to dual boot.

I had problems with usb device not seen by the VM, but didn't test recently, may be it have been corrected since

thanks jdd

USB works flawlessly here, just install the virtualbox rpm, e.g. http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/5.2.2/VirtualBox-5.2-5.2.2_119230_... and then the extension pack: http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/5.2.2/Oracle_VM_VirtualBox_Extensi... install with, e.g. # VBoxManage extpack install --replace Oracle_VM_VirtualBox_Extension_Pack-5.2.2.vbox-extpack You can add an auto-accept option to accept the license with something similar to: --accept-license="$(sha256sum /usr/share/licenses/virtualbox-ext-oracle/PUEL | head --bytes=64)" If you haven't tried it lately due to your prior experience with USB, it's worth another try. I have had no issues. (of course if you are running your vm --headless as a guest on a server, then it is a bit of a walk to plug the USB in...) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 17 December 2017 7:04:16 ACDT Wol's lists wrote:

On 16/12/17 07:32, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 16/12/2017 à 01:07, David C. Rankin a écrit :

...

I certainly prefer the VM to dual boot.

I had problems with usb device not seen by the VM, but didn't test recently, may be it have been corrected since

Don't know when it changed, but certainly in VirtualBox, passing USB devices through USED to be a chargeable extra or something - when I first started using it that option was disabled in the free version.

You need to download the Virtualbox Extension Pack to enable USB support past USB1. It is free under the PUEL licence (you have to pay for business/ enterprise use).

And I think you may have to go into the VirtualBox menubar and claim the USB device for the guest. I don't think it does it automatically, otherwise you could have the host and several guests all fighting over it. (I'm not at that machine, and rarely use USB in my guests...)

You need to set up USB device filters in VirtualBox Manager (specific to each VM) that select which USB devices are made available to the guest. You can either setup device-specific filters (that match on the USB ID), or a universal filter that will match on any USB ID (I generally use the second). Devices that have been selected for the guest are usually remembered if they're left selected when the guest is shut down. That way, next time they're plugged in after the guest is powered up, they'll automatically be connected to the guest. That's how I handle my tom-tom navigators and my i-devices connecting to iTunes. -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/17/2017 11:28 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 17/12/2017 à 16:03, Rodney Baker a écrit :

...

You need to download the Virtualbox Extension Pack to enable USB support past USB1.

and it have to be the exact same version than virtualbox, sometime difficult to achieve

jdd

???? Oracle releases the packages together. Even if the OpenSUSE version is a bit behind, the older extensions versions are still available for download. The biggest problem is figuring out where Oracle hid them. ;-) BTW, there's also a Guest Additions you want to install as well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/17/2017 09:02 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 17/12/2017 à 17:34, James Knott a écrit :

...

Oracle releases the packages together.  Even if the OpenSUSE version is a bit behind, the older extensions versions are still available for download.  The biggest problem is figuring out where Oracle hid them.  ;-)

may be it's the problem, but I couldn't solve it

...

BTW, there's also a Guest Additions you want to install as well.

these one a pulled from oracle from a virtualbox menu, easy

for extension in 42.3, do

go to:

https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds_5_1

eventually download the virtualbox application from

http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/5.1.30/VirtualBox-5.1-5.1.30_11838...

(link openSUSE 13.2 ("Harlequin") / Leap 42.1 ("Malachite")  i386 | AMD64). I did it by error (I expected the extension pack) and so had some messages I could ignore and it worked - hope it will continue.

certainly use "Extension Pack  All Platforms"

http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/5.1.30/Oracle_VM_VirtualBox_Extens...

with virtualbox launched it's automatically inserted and gives usb2/usb3 access

jdd

You've made This MORE confusing. *Extension packs* are downloaded directly from *within* Virtualbox Manager from the File - Check for updates menu. They will always be correct for your version. *Guest Additions* is a single ISO image that supports all guests. It is downloaded from where-ever and made available to the guests (for mounting and installing inside the guest). Guest Additions are not customized by Opensuse or any other distro, its just an ISO image. If Opensuse packages it is probably good. But you can fetch a later one from Virtualbox, because the guest additions are backward compatible. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/17/2017 12:04 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 17/12/2017 à 17:34, James Knott a écrit :

...

download.  The biggest problem is figuring out where Oracle hid them. ;-)

best way is launch virtualbox, go to help, write down (or copy) exact version minus SUSE part

search google for

virtualbox extension pack 5.1.30

jdd

/code ******** http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/5.1.30/ ******** -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/17/2017 11:31 AM, nicholas cunliffe wrote:

for extensions simply go to the VM menu (when booted), select insert extensions cd and the correct ones are automatically downloaded. vbox works flawlessly, just dive in.

You've confused it too. In a virtual machine, on the Devices menu, you select Insert GUEST ADDITIONS CD. But that only works if you have downloaded the Guest Additions ISO Image on installed it via yast or whatever. Its just a iso image of open source drivers. EXTENSIONS are not fully opensource, and they are NOT installed in a Virtual Machine. They are installed in the HOST, and downloaded from within VirtualBox Manager, via the File / Check for Updates menu. You have to shut down your Virtual Machines to install them. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 17/12/2017 à 22:48, nicholas cunliffe a écrit :

thanks for the reminder me about extensions (have just updated from 'check for updates' which automatically downloads them from oracle). the guest additions i am pretty sure are downloaded automatically if you choose to insert the cd and no existing file is found (you get a dialogue saying nothing was found and asked to confirm the automatic download from oracle), i do this every time.

yes and I didn't know about the "update" menu, that do not give me the extension, but only says that virtualbox is the last version (even if I have no extension installed) since now (including today), I downloaded the file from oracle then file/parameter/extensions. When downloading, one have the option of opening the file with virtualbox, which is the best thing to do jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David, et al -- ...and then David C. Rankin said... % % On 12/15/2017 02:41 PM, David T-G wrote: % > I'm running a dual-boot system (Win 7 and SuSE 42.3 at least for now) ... % > % > Got any ideas for something that works under both but also looks fairly % > Linux-ish? % % Or better yet, install SuSE to the entire drive, create a 50G (it can be % expandable as needed) VM for Win7 or Win10 and just virtualize windows. Unless [snip] I've been thinking really hard about that, and I'd like to experiment with the idea. I don't have a cell modem (which, hey, might be supported under Linux these days anyway) in this laptop, and I don't think that I'm going to do anything else with special hardware, so maybe. But I want to take baby steps :-) I actually figured I'd see what I can run under WINE and see if there's any need for Windows any more at all. So, in the interest of looking forward, can anyone give me pointers to good primers for free virtualiztion? The last time I looked was when VMWare "personal" was free and I had no idea what this Xen thing was; today I still don't have much of an idea but VMWare is, IIRC, no longer an option. Thanks again & HH :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/12/17 19:12, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 16/12/2017 à 16:41, David T-G a écrit :

...

today I still don't have much of an idea but VMWare is, IIRC, no longer an option.

try virtualbox, the easier to install from yast. If you need real fake dualboot, Xen may be better, but harder to configure

jdd

 - believe Chairman Brown favors KVM ....  regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos, et al -- ...and then Carlos E. R. said... % % On Saturday, 2017-12-16 at 10:41 -0500, David T-G wrote: % ... % >today I still don't have much of an idea but VMWare is, IIRC, no longer % >an option. % % Why not an option? % It is still free for personal use. [snip] OH! I just went googling and I see it; either it's changed again or I misunderstood the licensing. So, yeah, that's an option, albeit closed and with some restrictions. I think I've seen virtualbox/vbox, Xen, KVM, and VMWare go by. It seems that virtualbox can have some interesting challenges, I didn't really see a lot on Xen or KVM, and there will come a time when I want to use my VMs as part of our http://getinspiredflight.com/ business and will run afoul of the licensing restrictions. And I didn't see any primer pointers, but I can go digging; I'm just always happy to have shortcuts :-) Any final recommendations as this subthread winds down? No, I won't be able to poke too hard this week, but I'll dig in after Christmas when able... Thanks again & HH :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/12/17 15:41, David T-G wrote:

So, in the interest of looking forward, can anyone give me pointers to good primers for free virtualiztion? The last time I looked was when VMWare "personal" was free and I had no idea what this Xen thing was; today I still don't have much of an idea but VMWare is, IIRC, no longer an option.

Xen, if I understand correctly, lets you run multiple OS's simultaneously on the hardware, unlike VirtualBox which is itself a program running on one system, that then lets another system run on it. I use VirtualBox. XP worked fine, 7 was a disaster, and 10 is looking good. Basically create a drive for Windows - you only need it to be big enough for Windows and programs because your data will live elsewhere, but remember Windows generally accretes a LOT of cruft ... Now install Windows and guest additions :-) If you want Windows 10, search on Amazon for an OEM key - I think I paid about £10 and I've had no trouble whatsoever. Just make sure you read the instructions! My ~ contains directories like "Pictures", "Documents", "Downloads", etc. VirtualBox contains a mechanism (can't remember what it's called) that makes a host folder show up in the guest (if you look at the network in Explorer you'll see a host called VBOXSVR, mount that share to eg H:). You can then change your Windows "My Documents" to point at ~/Documents, etc. In XP that was doable by editing the registry. Whether I messed things up or not I don't know, but 7 was a complete mess-up from that point of view - I never got it half-way usable. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/12/17 21:07, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

I think virtualbox is ok for unfrequent use, xen for nearly simultaneous use, but it's not easy to install, I gave up myself

I've almost never had any problems with it, but it does use out-of-tree kernel modules :-( So it is explicitly NOT supported on Tumbleweed. I run it on gentoo, so I know I have to re-install the kernel modules after every kernel upgrade. It *should* work fine on Leap, although I believe there was a mess-up on my mum's machine (running, iirc, 13.x at the time), which my brother had to sort out. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/12/17 14:55, Rodney Baker wrote:

Really? Nobody ever told me that - I've been running it on TW for a couple of years, with dkms enabled too (so I never have to rebuild kernel modules). dkms also takes care of the nvidia modules when switching kernel versions.

When I was setting up my mum's system, I needed it to be reliable, and when I checked it said VB wasn't supported because kernel upgrades could break it. Dunno where I saw it, but I haven't checked whether it's changed since then. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/12/17 22:16, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

When I was setting up my mum's system, I needed it to be reliable, and

...

when I checked it said VB wasn't supported because kernel upgrades could break it. Dunno where I saw it, but I haven't checked whether it's changed since then.

and you do know that you don't have to boot the latest kernel? keep using the one that matches your "VB"

And then it somehow gets updated automagically, and all hell breaks loose. No thanks. The tighter that box is locked down, the better. Aged parents break things... Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/12/17 16:37, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

...

...

when I checked it said VB wasn't supported because kernel upgrades could break it. Dunno where I saw it, but I haven't checked whether it's changed since then. and you do know that you don't have to boot the latest kernel? keep using

When I was setting up my mum's system, I needed it to be reliable, and the one that matches your "VB" And then it somehow gets updated automagically, and all hell breaks loose. No thanks. The tighter that box is locked down, the better. Aged

On 17/12/17 22:16, Patrick Shanahan wrote: parents break things...

* Wols Lists [12-18-17 09:32]: then add a lock the the kernel, geez.

deny root access to everyone but you provide yourself with ssh to that box turn off automagic updates and apply them yourself remotely *DO* the admin job.

aged parents cannot break things they cannot access. (and I am in that "aged" group, am a parent, and do break things. but I also correct them when they break.)

KVM : what are the advantages / disadvantages of KVM ? thanks ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 18/12/2017 à 18:18, Wol's lists a écrit :

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT,

build a VPN? jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 18/12/2017 à 19:41, Wol's lists a écrit :

On 18/12/17 18:28, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 18/12/2017 à 18:18, Wol's lists a écrit :

...

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT,

build a VPN?

But if I don't know how to get the two machines to talk to each other, how do I get them to talk over a VPN?

My network is 192.168.1/24. I believe my router's external address is a 10/8 address. Then it goes over the public internet. Meanwhile my mum's network is 192.168.0/24 with her router's external IP a 10/8 address. How do I get one machine to talk to the other?

Cheers, Wol

if you can share mails, you can communicate :-) I don't know vpn, only that they allows going through routers, but may be you can setup *your* side to accept ssh and open a ssh tunnel from your mother's side (of course at a moment you are there) may be send a live dvd to boot on your mother side (she must be able to put a dvd in reader and reboot :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 18/12/2017 à 20:34, Wol's lists a écrit :

But that's the point. We CAN'T communicate (directly, that is).

may not be necessary. https://www.teamviewer.com/en/ do it, and don't seems to ask for any port forwarding it's free for personal use, but don't seems to be "free software" but if TW can do it, it's possible and may be done elsewhere jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/18/2017 01:41 PM, Wol's lists wrote:

On 18/12/17 18:28, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 18/12/2017 à 18:18, Wol's lists a écrit :

...

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT,

build a VPN?

But if I don't know how to get the two machines to talk to each other, how do I get them to talk over a VPN?

My network is 192.168.1/24. I believe my router's external address is a 10/8 address. Then it goes over the public internet. Meanwhile my mum's network is 192.168.0/24 with her router's external IP a 10/8 address. How do I get one machine to talk to the other?

Time to move to IPv6. If your ISP doesn't provide it, get it from he.net. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/18/2017 03:19 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 18/12/2017 à 21:15, James Knott a écrit :

...

Time to move to IPv6. If your ISP doesn't provide it, get it from he.net.

cascading routers may not be IPV6 capable :-(

The issue is whether the NAT will pass IP protocol 41. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2017-12-18 at 18:41 -0000, Wol's lists wrote:

On 18/12/17 18:28, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 18/12/2017 à 18:18, Wol's lists a écrit :

...

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT,

build a VPN?

But if I don't know how to get the two machines to talk to each other, how do I get them to talk over a VPN?

My network is 192.168.1/24. I believe my router's external address is a 10/8 address. Then it goes over the public internet. Meanwhile my mum's network is 192.168.0/24 with her router's external IP a 10/8 address. How do I get one machine to talk to the other?

No, unless your ISP gives your router a public IPv4 or IPv6, you can't connect directly from either machine. The way to do it is, I think, too connect both machines to an intermediary that is on the public network, and which does the interconnect. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo4QSUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UAKQCgkpuKlrG3C+JHGJJYuGt70BNf XMgAn1qF+Pfx+4lxpWHHR96vRZchyhAp =fLDQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Le 18/12/2017 à 23:28, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

The way to do it is, I think, too connect both machines to an intermediary that is on the public network, and which does the interconnect.

I'm a bit short in english to know what to search, but found this: http://www.vpngate.net/en/ that may be solution?? jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op dinsdag 19 december 2017 08:53:26 CET schreef Bob Williams:

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:18:12 +0000

Wol's lists wrote:

...

...

provide yourself with ssh to that box

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT, as far as I can tell. I haven't got round to working out how to get IPv6 working at home, and mum is with a different ISP so getting it working at her end will be even more of a problem.

Do you have your own user on her machine? If so, do this, on your own (local) machine. You may have already done step 1, creating your own key pair, in which case proceed to step 2:

ssh-keygen creates the public and private keys. ssh-copy-id copies the local-host’s public key to the remote-host’s authorized_keys file. ssh-copy-id also assigns proper permission to the remote-host’s home, ~/.ssh, and ~/.ssh/authorized_keys.

Step 1: Create public and private keys using ssh-key-gen on local-host jsmith@local-host$ [Note: You are on local-host here]

jsmith@local-host$ ssh-keygen Generating public/private rsa key pair. Enter file in which to save the key (/home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa):[Enter key] Enter passphrase (empty for no passphrase): [Press enter key] Enter same passphrase again: [Press enter key] Your identification has been saved in /home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa. Your public key has been saved in /home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa.pub. The key fingerprint is: 33:b3:fe:af:95:95:18:11:31:d5:de:96:2f:f2:35:f9 jsmith@local-host

Step 2: Copy the public key to remote-host using ssh-copy-id jsmith@local-host$ ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub remote-host jsmith@remote-host's password: Now try logging into the machine, with "ssh 'remote-host'", and check in:

.ssh/authorized_keys

to make sure we haven't added extra keys that you weren't expecting. Note: ssh-copy-id appends the keys to the remote-host’s .ssh/authorized_keys.

Step 3: Login to remote-host without entering the password jsmith@local-host$ ssh remote-host Last login: Sun Nov 16 17:22:33 2008 from 192.168.1.2 [Note: SSH did not ask for password.]

jsmith@remote-host$ [Note: You are on remote-host here]

The above 3 simple steps should get the job done in most cases.

Bob The machines aren't in the same networks, and both are behind a router. You forget that on "mum's" side a port has to be forwarded on the router to her own local IP address. This will only work if "mum" gets the same external IP address from her ISP all the time. ( And I do know of situations where customers get a different IP address every other day ).

One can tackle that issue by making the remote mail it's external IP address on a regular basis ( f.e. daily ). -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op dinsdag 19 december 2017 09:28:05 CET schreef jdd@dodin.org:

Le 19/12/2017 à 09:16, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink a écrit :

...

The machines aren't in the same networks, and both are behind a router. You forget that on "mum's" side a port has to be forwarded on the router to her own local IP address.

not always. Forward port is the simpler way, but it's not needed on the sender side, so if you can start the ssh tunnel from your mum to your own computer it may works

This will only work if "mum" gets the same external

...

IP address from her ISP all the time. ( And I do know of situations where customers get a different IP address every other day ).

One can tackle that issue by making the remote mail it's external IP address on a regular basis ( f.e. daily ).

https://blog.trackets.com/2014/05/17/ssh-tunnel-local-and-remote-port-forwar ding-explained-with-examples.html

jdd

Of course not, the OP has already posted that both are behind a router -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:16:04 +0100 Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:18:12 +0000

Wol's lists wrote:

...

...

provide yourself with ssh to that box

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT, as far as I can tell. I haven't got round to working out how to get IPv6 working at home, and mum is with a different ISP so getting it working at her end will be even more of a problem.

Do you have your own user on her machine? If so, do this, on your own (local) machine. You may have already done step 1, creating your own key pair, in which case proceed to step 2:

ssh-keygen creates the public and private keys. ssh-copy-id copies the local-host’s public key to the remote-host’s authorized_keys file. ssh-copy-id also assigns proper permission to the remote-host’s home, ~/.ssh, and ~/.ssh/authorized_keys.

Step 1: Create public and private keys using ssh-key-gen on local-host jsmith@local-host$ [Note: You are on local-host here]

jsmith@local-host$ ssh-keygen Generating public/private rsa key pair. Enter file in which to save the key (/home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa):[Enter key] Enter passphrase (empty for no passphrase): [Press enter key] Enter same passphrase again: [Press enter key] Your identification has been saved in /home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa. Your public key has been saved in /home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa.pub. The key fingerprint is: 33:b3:fe:af:95:95:18:11:31:d5:de:96:2f:f2:35:f9 jsmith@local-host

Step 2: Copy the public key to remote-host using ssh-copy-id jsmith@local-host$ ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub remote-host jsmith@remote-host's password: Now try logging into the machine, with "ssh 'remote-host'", and check in:

.ssh/authorized_keys

to make sure we haven't added extra keys that you weren't expecting. Note: ssh-copy-id appends the keys to the remote-host’s .ssh/authorized_keys.

Step 3: Login to remote-host without entering the password jsmith@local-host$ ssh remote-host Last login: Sun Nov 16 17:22:33 2008 from 192.168.1.2 [Note: SSH did not ask for password.]

jsmith@remote-host$ [Note: You are on remote-host here]

The above 3 simple steps should get the job done in most cases.

Bob The machines aren't in the same networks, and both are behind a router. You forget that on "mum's" side a port has to be forwarded on

Op dinsdag 19 december 2017 08:53:26 CET schreef Bob Williams: the router to her own local IP address. This will only work if "mum" gets the same external IP address from her ISP all the time. ( And I do know of situations where customers get a different IP address every other day ).

One can tackle that issue by making the remote mail it's external IP address on a regular basis ( f.e. daily ).

Or use a service like dyndns? -- Bob Williams System: Linux 4.4.103-36-default Distro: openSUSE 42.3 (x86_64) Desktop: KDE Frameworks: 5.32.0, Qt: 5.6.2 and Plasma: 5.8.7

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 11:04 +0100, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

Op dinsdag 19 december 2017 10:29:20 CET schreef Bob Williams:

...

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:16:04 +0100

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Op dinsdag 19 december 2017 08:53:26 CET schreef Bob Williams:

...

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:18:12 +0000

Wol's lists wrote:

...

...

provide yourself with ssh to that box

How? Both my box and mum's box are behind TWO levels of NAT, as far as I can tell. I haven't got round to working out how to get IPv6 working at home, and mum is with a different ISP so getting it working at her end will be even more of a problem.

Do you have your own user on her machine? If so, do this, on your own (local) machine. You may have already done step 1, creating your own key pair, in which case proceed to step 2:

ssh-keygen creates the public and private keys. ssh-copy-id copies the local-host’s public key to the remote-host’s authorized_keys file. ssh-copy-id also assigns proper permission to the remote-host’s home, ~/.ssh, and ~/.ssh/authorized_keys.

Step 1: Create public and private keys using ssh-key-gen on local-host jsmith@local-host$ [Note: You are on local-host here]

jsmith@local-host$ ssh-keygen Generating public/private rsa key pair. Enter file in which to save the key (/home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa):[Enter key] Enter passphrase (empty for no passphrase): [Press enter key] Enter same passphrase again: [Press enter key] Your identification has been saved in /home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa. Your public key has been saved in /home/jsmith/.ssh/id_rsa.pub. The key fingerprint is: 33:b3:fe:af:95:95:18:11:31:d5:de:96:2f:f2:35:f9 jsmith@local-host

Step 2: Copy the public key to remote-host using ssh-copy-id jsmith@local-host$ ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub remote-host jsmith@remote-host's password: Now try logging into the machine, with "ssh 'remote-host'", and check in:

.ssh/authorized_keys

to make sure we haven't added extra keys that you weren't expecting. Note: ssh-copy-id appends the keys to the remote-host’s .ssh/authorized_keys.

Step 3: Login to remote-host without entering the password jsmith@local-host$ ssh remote-host Last login: Sun Nov 16 17:22:33 2008 from 192.168.1.2 [Note: SSH did not ask for password.]

jsmith@remote-host$ [Note: You are on remote-host here]

The above 3 simple steps should get the job done in most cases.

Bob

The machines aren't in the same networks, and both are behind a router. You forget that on "mum's" side a port has to be forwarded on the router to her own local IP address. This will only work if "mum" gets the same external IP address from her ISP all the time. ( And I do know of situations where customers get a different IP address every other day ).

One can tackle that issue by making the remote mail it's external IP address on a regular basis ( f.e. daily ).

Or use a service like dyndns? That breaks a.s.a. the ISP brings in a new IP address.

You are both forgetting that both the OP and him mom router's external addresses are on a 10.*.*.* IP range, and probably a different one each. A service like dyndns works even if the IP changes, but not in this case, because the routers do not have routable public addreses. The can't even ping one another. Unless they are both on the same ISP, and it uses the same 10.*.*.* network for all the clients. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo47EwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XN8ACfU18zGEnsC6AbCUBkdlGxcg4U obAAnivjLX/AsqntfABU3x9mmvX/w682 =Mjv7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 13:13 +0100, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 19/12/2017 à 11:38, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

You are both forgetting that both the OP and him mom router's external addresses are on a 10.*.*.* IP range, and probably a different one each.

if they can reach the net, why bother? They need some external relay, I don't know if dyndns can do that.

...

A service like dyndns works even if the IP changes, but not in this case, because the routers do not have routable public addreses.

if they can send mails, of course there is one somewhere (a gateway), looking at mail header will tell which

No use.

...

The can't even ping one another.

my own adress is 192.168.1.40, of course you can't ping me

Well, that's precissely the problem. We can not ping an address like 10.x.y.z, either. Both routers can not ping one another. 192.168.*.* ---[router]--- 10.a.b.c ---[ISP 1]--- public intrnt ---| (nat) (nat) | prvte adrss prvte adrss | | 192.168.*.* ---[router]--- 10.a.b.c ---[ISP 2]--- public intrnt ---| (nat) (nat) You can not address a ping to the external interface of the routers, because the routers themselves are in a private network, and the ISP is doing NAT. The ISP does not have enough public internet addresses to give them. The only thing you can reach is the Gateway at each ISP, no further. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5CwEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WMWACeJ1jVJGQv+gaXBnCprNmykRpC 1NwAn3g5EmaOvu5enE2R6GzzUN6PI3xV =zhac -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 12/19/2017 05:04 AM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

That breaks a.s.a. the ISP brings in a new IP address.

What's a.s.a.? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 10:24 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* James Knott [12-19-17 08:44]:

...

On 12/19/2017 05:04 AM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

That breaks a.s.a. the ISP brings in a new IP address. What's a.s.a.? errr: as soon as

In that case, the post I responded to was wrong. Dyndns is for DHCP addresses, which may change. My connection is also DHCP, but changes so seldom, it's virtually static. However, on the DNS service I use, I created a CNAME alias that points to my firewall's host name, which never changes as it's based on the firewall and modem MAC addresses. My IPv6 addresses are also long term consistent and I have the DNS server pointing to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 01:40 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

In that case, the post I responded to was wrong. Dyndns is for DHCP addresses, which may change. My connection is also DHCP, but changes so seldom, it's virtually static. However, on the DNS service I use, I created a CNAME alias that points to my firewall's host name, which never changes as it's based on the firewall and modem MAC addresses.

Mine is based on the current IP.

Here's my host name. The MAC addresses have been hidden to protect the guilty. ;-) CPE<firewall MAC>-CM<modem MAC>.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com That host name will only change if I change the hardware. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 01:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

This is what I have seen here on most places that do not pay a fixed address.

I don't pay for a fixed address. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 02:10 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

I don't pay for a fixed address. Again, you are lucky :-)

I also don't live in Spain! ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 19/12/2017 à 20:09, James Knott a écrit :

On 12/19/2017 01:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

This is what I have seen here on most places that do not pay a fixed address.

I don't pay for a fixed address.

here, in France, I have two separate providers (one adsl, the other fiber), the first (free) gives no choice but a fixed IP, the other (SFR gives a said variable IP but it's known to never change jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 19/12/2017 à 20:20, James Knott a écrit : It was fixed for my last night

there.

incredible :-)) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 04:29 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

Or use a service like dyndns?

Dyndns is used to provide a host name to DHCP address that might change. It does nothing for getting through ISP's NAT. The only way through that is some sort of tunnel or other means through a server. I mentioned he.net, as it will provided a static IP address. However, this sort of situation, where customers are forced onto NAT is why the world must move to IPv6. I've had IPv6 for over 7 years, initially through a 6in4 tunnel, but now native IPv6 from my ISP. In both cases, I received a /56 prefix, which provides a block of 2^72 or 4.7 billion, trillion addresses. In this day & age, there's no reason for an ISP to not provide IPv6, as IPv4 is nowhere near capable of properly supporting today's Internet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 08:00 AM, Rodney Baker wrote:

...

[...]

The machines aren't in the same networks, and both are behind a router. You forget that on "mum's" side a port has to be forwarded on the router to her own local IP address. This will only work if "mum" gets the same external IP address from her ISP all the time. ( And I do know of situations where customers get a different IP address every other day ).

One can tackle that issue by making the remote mail it's external IP address on a regular basis ( f.e. daily ). Not so - that's where a service like DynDNS comes into play. The router registers its public IP address with DynDNS each time it boots or each time

On Tuesday, 19 December 2017 18:46:04 ACDT Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote: the public IP address changes. Instead of connecting to the IP address (using the forwarded port), one connects to the dns name associated with the DynDNS account. DNS resolution takes care of the rest. That's exactly how I manage my own remote access VPN into my home network (from anywhere on the internet). Of course, having a properly configured firewall ***on the router*** or between the router and the internal lan is a must if one is exposing network ports to the internet. Rodney.

That works only when the user has a public address, not when their ISP uses NAT to provide service. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 19/12/2017 à 14:56, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

Remember that in this case those two routers do not have any "public IP address". 10.*.*.* is private address range.

this is the nat work. The problem is to trick the nat and make it think the traffic is normal web traffic when it's otherwise :-) may not be easy, but with external server (proxy??) it's possible may be try TeamViewer that pretends it does and if it works may be try similar system jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 19/12/2017 à 15:21, James Knott a écrit :

It has nothing to do with normal web traffic and everything to do with NAT blocking access. While Team Viewer may work, it shouldn't be necessary to use it.

teamviewer is free for personal use, so one can test it in full. If then the license do not please, it's still possible to try other solutions. If it don't works, may be there is nothing to do Linux supports remote access via SSH, to run

whatever app you want. Unfortunately, it's blocked by NAT and idiot ISPs that use NAT rather than moving to IPv6.

well, if changing ISP is not an option, try computers are done so only test can (in)validate a solution :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/12/17 07:53, Bob Williams wrote:

Step 3: Login to remote-host without entering the password jsmith@local-host$ ssh remote-host Last login: Sun Nov 16 17:22:33 2008 from 192.168.1.2 [Note: SSH did not ask for password.]

Response from DNS: "remote-host" not found And you're going to get that WHICHEVER pc you choose as remote or local. That is the problem - while both machines can access the internet, neither can be accessed FROM the internet. (And both are telcos, not ISPs, so talking to tech support is a case of "what tech support?" :-( Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/12/17 15:30, James Knott wrote:

On 12/19/2017 10:08 AM, Wols Lists wrote:

...

(And both are telcos, not ISPs, so talking to tech support is a case of "what tech support?" :-(

ISP means Internet Service Provider. That could be any company, including telco, that provides your Internet connection. In my case, it's the local cable TV company. In my area, the main telco is also an ISP, along with several other companies. What's curious is that at least one ISP, that uses that telco's lines, manages to provide IPv6, even though the telco doesn't.

That's easy. Your router (or rather, the DSLAM at the local exchange) simply forwards all your traffic to a router at the ISP. The DSLAM neither knows nor cares about IP addresses, ports or anything. It just provides a bi-directional pipe for stuff to go up and down. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 11:38 -0500, James Knott wrote:

On 12/19/2017 11:31 AM, Wols Lists wrote:

...

That's easy.

Your router (or rather, the DSLAM at the local exchange) simply forwards all your traffic to a router at the ISP. The DSLAM neither knows nor cares about IP addresses, ports or anything. It just provides a bi-directional pipe for stuff to go up and down.

I know it's easy, thanks to PPPoE. The curious part is that the phone company is the main carrier around here, yet is stuck in the past, when it comes to IPv6. Other carriers here have no problem providing IPv6. These companies have to accept the idea that the world is moving to IPv6 because IPv4 has long been inadequate. He.net is an option for those who have real IPv4 addresses but, as you show, being stuck behind NAT denies even that.

What could work is each of those computers setting up a tunnel from their side to an external, public machine, which then provides another address on its own network. And route them. TeamViewer and others can also work, if each computer logins at an intermediary, and the intermediary routes the protocol. But they never can interconnect directly, this is denied. All that is a hack. Of course IPv6 is the correct solution, unless some one decides to put people on private ranges again. :-( - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5XCoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UJRwCfSc6IUDjdWHziXv9eTtK6da7y t78An2Y/arFEgnv112cYWusb0B8Ne/2q =jBaa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 01:36 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

All that is a hack. Of course IPv6 is the correct solution, unless some one decides to put people on private ranges again.

While not impossible, NAT on IPv6 is strongly discouraged. The only reason for NAT is the IPv4 address shortage. Move to IPv6 and that problem disappears. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/12/17 18:44, James Knott wrote:

On 12/19/2017 01:36 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

All that is a hack. Of course IPv6 is the correct solution, unless some one decides to put people on private ranges again.

While not impossible, NAT on IPv6 is strongly discouraged. The only reason for NAT is the IPv4 address shortage. Move to IPv6 and that problem disappears.

And actually, the reason IPv6 is now taking off is that we really truly have run out of IPv4 addresses. Before, pushing consumers behind NAT was "okay" because they "don't need" a routable IP address. So long as NAT could keep pushing people off the public internet there was no need to move to v6. But now, businesses want more *routable* IP addresses than v4 can provide. Suddenly, we can no longer fake more supply, and so v6 is a necessity. v4 and NAT will probably go the way of the dodo "fairly soon", but there is an awful lot of old kit out there that needs replacing, and a lot of people who can't be bothered to upgrade. I probably should upgrade, but can I invest the time and money that I would need to to avoid breaking things? Especially given the amount of confusion and mis-information there is out there - one only needs to look at the mis-information in this email thread :-( (Not blaming anyone, but it IS confusing, and it IS hard to understand.) As soon as you step outside the mass-produced consumer junk that most people want, things rarely work smoothly :-( and usually break because things have been optimised to support a typical use case with no thought given to people who might want to be different :-( Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 15:32 -0500, James Knott wrote: ...

These days, users are generally assigned an IPv6 prefix via DHCPv6-PD. Many (most?, all?) consumer level routers now support it. My cell phone only has IPv6 service. It has to use 464XLAT to convert to/from IPv4 for IPv4 only web sites or apps.

My cell phone gets a 10.*.*.* adress. My ISP feels no need to move to IPv6. The next step could be moving most home customers to another or same 10.*.*.* network, and use public address only for those that complain or pay for it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5fmsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WzYACcCFQhSGZhbWzhLZY74ISQzSXz rwsAoI3MchB0StyzBAcLsbimZjSP7/x5 =0hcR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 16:18 -0500, James Knott wrote:

On 12/19/2017 04:02 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The next step could be moving most home customers to another or same 10.*.*.* network, and use public address only for those that complain or pay for it.

That using NAT is absolutely nuts these days. With IPv6, there is no shortage of addresses. Also, by using carrier grade NAT, they're only adding to their problems. It takes more router performance to do NAT than plain routing, as well as configuration.

Apparently they don't care.

Have you looked at something like he.net for IPv6? With them, you can get a /48 prefix, which is 65536 /64 prefixes. Each /64 is 18.4 billion, billion addresses.

I only get a /56 or 256 /64s from my ISP. :'(

I'll wait till my ISP does change. I don't need to connect to any site that is IPv6 only. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5jhQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VP8ACaA+dLUQlqQWwsByaSu/htWsdF OjEAn3w4XxJidHuLVIxO6HxjodfgK2r8 =593W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/12/17 21:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 15:32 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

...

These days, users are generally assigned an IPv6 prefix via DHCPv6-PD. Many (most?, all?) consumer level routers now support it. My cell phone only has IPv6 service. It has to use 464XLAT to convert to/from IPv4 for IPv4 only web sites or apps.

My cell phone gets a 10.*.*.* adress. My ISP feels no need to move to IPv6. The next step could be moving most home customers to another or same 10.*.*.* network, and use public address only for those that complain or pay for it.

Your ISP is going to get a shock. ISPs are moving to v6 because they have NO CHOICE. Businesses are going to go to your ISP and say "we *need* a routable internet address". What's your ISP going to say to them - "sorry we don't have any"? The business will just respond "bye-bye, thanks for all the fish". More and more internet services will move to v6, because they have no choice. I think it's a safe bet that a lot of Google servers, Amazon servers, Facebook servers are going v6-only because they can't get hold of v4 addresses to give them. And at some point, they are going to pull the plug on v4 because they find running dual-stack too much of a hassle. v4 internet-grade routers are already fiendishly complex things, because the routing tables have got so complicated that a lot of compute power needs to be thrown at them just to keep up. A v6-only router is MUCH MUCH simpler, because to some extent the route is encoded in the address (that's the way it used to be with v4, but address exhaustion drove greater and greater hacks into the system). Simply put, once the pain of maintaining a multiple-levels-of-NAT IPv4-only infrastructure reaches a certain point (typically, customers leaving because you have no routable public v4 addresses left), IPv6 becomes a necessity. Once you *are* running v6, then running dual-stack becomes a liability so your network will rapidly become all-v6 (for a suitable value of "rapidly", typically "as fast as we can replace our hardware, maybe 20 years" :-). All your v4 connectivity hassles are pushed to your interconnects with other ISPs, and the sooner you can communicate with them solely using v6 the better. In other words, your ISP may feel no need to move to v6. But the world is changing around it, and your ISP will soon be a dodo. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 21:31 -0000, Wols Lists wrote:

On 19/12/17 21:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 15:32 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

...

These days, users are generally assigned an IPv6 prefix via DHCPv6-PD. Many (most?, all?) consumer level routers now support it. My cell phone only has IPv6 service. It has to use 464XLAT to convert to/from IPv4 for IPv4 only web sites or apps.

My cell phone gets a 10.*.*.* adress. My ISP feels no need to move to IPv6. The next step could be moving most home customers to another or same 10.*.*.* network, and use public address only for those that complain or pay for it.

Your ISP is going to get a shock. ISPs are moving to v6 because they have NO CHOICE. Businesses are going to go to your ISP and say "we *need* a routable internet address". What's your ISP going to say to them - "sorry we don't have any"? The business will just respond "bye-bye, thanks for all the fish".

They have plenty, simply by not giving them to residential customers. ...

In other words, your ISP may feel no need to move to v6. But the world is changing around it, and your ISP will soon be a dodo.

You don't have to convince me... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5jVcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WwmQCeLKo+dQlQPfRIoghTnbEXgHno XroAmQGiVvRFBtudkrB87U+sSHEdtc0W =Iuwb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 04:14 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

* IPV6 is *much* harder to remember and not everybody have a domain name...

There's still /etc/hosts for assigning a name to an address. It works with IPv6 too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2017 04:34 PM, Wols Lists wrote:

On 19/12/17 21:14, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 19/12/2017 à 21:32, James Knott a écrit :

...

IPv6 is where the world is moving. If it's available, go for it. You won't have this "you can't get there from here" problem.

but

* we can't as long as some important actors don't. I understood that the OP do not have IPV6... It's definitely not configured. I'm not sure if my router supports it. I need to navigate the morass of confusing (mis)information to work out how/if my ISP provides it. * IPV6 is *much* harder to remember and not everybody have a domain name...

IPv6 was designed (as I understand it) from the get-go on the assumption that most people would be using DHCP ...

Cheers, Wol

Actually, it's quite simple. Your ISP provided DHCPv6-PD, which not only provides an IPv6 address to the firewall/router, but also the prefix for your network. Also, most people use "SLAAC", not DHCP. With SLAAC, the router announces the 64 bit prefix and the computer then appends the remaining 64 bits, either based on the MAC address or a random number. It's truly plug 'n play. DHCPv6 & manual configuration can also be used as with IPv4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 21:55 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

19.12.2017 21:36, Carlos E. R. пишет:

...

But they never can interconnect directly, this is denied.

There is UDP hole punching technique that creates port forwarding entries between two public addresses; this still requires external liaison which knows both public addresses to assist. The difference with e.g. TeamViewer is that traffic then does not go through third-party server which is arguably more secure.

Can this work with two cascaded NAT? :-? One at the router, another at the ISP. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5YTkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W6YACfRJW/mVbKvld9dEBu6mkAoo4y euAAoIwUjHu4+69z922L5UnMPAIGRANI =m78M -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 21:59 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

19.12.2017 21:58, Carlos E. R. пишет:

...

On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 21:55 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

19.12.2017 21:36, Carlos E. R. пишет:

...

But they never can interconnect directly, this is denied.

...

There is UDP hole punching technique that creates port forwarding entries between two public addresses; this still requires external liaison which knows both public addresses to assist. The difference with e.g. TeamViewer is that traffic then does not go through third-party server which is arguably more secure.

Can this work with two cascaded NAT? :-?

One at the router, another at the ISP.

Does NTP client that accesses public server work in this case?

I have no idea, sorry. We would have to ask the OP. But I assume anything can be reached from the inside /if/ a connection is stablished. Not if a connection back is expected. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5YjsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U3eQCfSmFTjPv8rf6xDWZiXO7KAyME COgAn2eLI2HnR9WIrSy7NnptiBaNfm7p =z8lI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 22:05 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

19.12.2017 22:02, Carlos E. R. пишет:

...

On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 21:59 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

19.12.2017 21:58, Carlos E. R. пишет:

...

On Tuesday, 2017-12-19 at 21:55 +0300, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

19.12.2017 21:36, Carlos E. R. пишет:

...

But they never can interconnect directly, this is denied.

...

There is UDP hole punching technique that creates port forwarding entries between two public addresses; this still requires external liaison which knows both public addresses to assist. The difference with e.g. TeamViewer is that traffic then does not go through third-party server which is arguably more secure.

Can this work with two cascaded NAT? :-?

One at the router, another at the ISP.

...

Does NTP client that accesses public server work in this case?

I have no idea, sorry. We would have to ask the OP.

But I assume anything can be reached from the inside /if/ a connection is stablished. Not if a connection back is expected.

What is the point of connection if you cannot get reply back?

UDP hole punching will work as long as all NAT routers establish reverse entry to forward back reply. Of course there can be situation where ISP explicitly allows only specific ports/protocols, then no hole punching is possible.

Ah, I see now what you mean. :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlo5ZBgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U5VQCfXYqhfLC6f39KLxtUBvxd6PbC vrcAn0IYRzR88iRXAMUqpzDHq2D4jCji =OnPm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Le 18/12/2017 à 15:37, Patrick Shanahan a écrit :

aged parents cannot break things they cannot access.

who have access to the keyboard, can share the keyboard with friends... can break anything :-(( jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/15/17 6:07 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 12/15/2017 02:41 PM, David T-G wrote:

...

I'm running a dual-boot system (Win 7 and SuSE 42.3 at least for now) and I would like to have all user content in a data volume accessable to both. With the demise of XP and the loss of Explore2FS (IIRC), I don't know of a good filesystem for use under both. I certainly can use NTFS, since Linux can read & write pretty stably, but it of course has no concept of *NIX permissions (including execution).

Got any ideas for something that works under both but also looks fairly Linux-ish?

Or better yet, install SuSE to the entire drive, create a 50G (it can be expandable as needed) VM for Win7 or Win10 and just virtualize windows. Unless you do something where you need 100% of the hardware on windows (like some wierd video editor that attempts to encode on the fly, while you browse the internet while compiling php or the kernel on the side), even an old dual core with 2G of RAM will do.

I have 4-cores and 8G, I usually give win 2G and 1 (or 2) cores (more cores helps more than more RAM). 100% happy with it. I do still dual-boot as well (just because the laptop came with Win10 on an SSD). I have SuSE w/Win7 VM on a 1T platter and win10 on the ssd.

I certainly prefer the VM to dual boot.

David, what VM do you use on Leap? Jim F -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org