RE: [SLE] Is Linux Ready?
Firstly I want to make it clear that I am a Linux advocate and want it to become an alternative to Windows. And it will, Linux is becoming a very usable OS for the general public. The support is unbelievable. BUT... Linux has its shortcomings. It still needs another year or so development before you can walk into EVERY PC store and be able to choose a Linux PC in very much the same way you have the choice of Windows and Macs. Now, Windows in all its incarnations has its shortcomings aswell, but it is a mainstream product. It won't go away tomorrow. Windows NT is their best product yet - In my experience NT is very easy to install.
Just s few weeks ago 'they' forced me to install NT on my system at my (new) job. At home, I am using Linux exclusive for over 5 years.
It is hard to install NT... You get error messages which have nothing to do with the problem. If (when!) something goes wrong, you get no relevant information and your only hope is to reboot the damned thing again. I'm not trying to be funny. I really did not understand the messages the few times there were error-messages.
You don't understand because you say you've used Linux for the past 5 years. Now, imagine people coming from Windows and going to Linux. They are in the same boat. What does that say about Linux then? If you say NT isn't perfect - then Linux isn't neither. In work I work with both Linux and NT. And they coexist great. I don't need to put NT down in order to make Linux look better. There is far too much ANTI MICROSOFT in ALL Linux chatrooms/mailing lists. But where would we be without it? I bet the vast majority of the people on this list started off with a DOS machine. Ok, you have MS DOS, PC DOS and DR DOS but the fact of the matter is that MS DOS one out. Ok, you say the marketing was brilliant... but MS took the PC market by storm. What was available at that time? Not very much. And I agree, if Linux came out then then we will all be using Linux machines now... but it didn't happen like that. Face it - the fact is it DID NOT happen like that. Get used to it. Linux has improved on areas of OSes that we've loved to "hate". So it is fair to say, this - Windows is on every desktop because people know how to use it - from whatever their background and technical expertise (or lack thereof). How it ended up on their PC is another matter and something which goes into marketing and not technicallity. They know how to use it because they have grown up with it. I'm surely not the only one on this list who grew up with DOS5/6.x/Windows3.x/Win9x/NT and am making a transition to Linux. Why am I making that transition? Not because I hate Microsoft. Not because I have to reboot Windows everytime I install something. But because I want to be able to do things I can't with Windows. In the same light, I still use Windows because there is a lot which I can't do with Linux. I can see Linux only getting better and better - it happens that way. When the Linux world gets an environment that ALL walks of life can use, because, lets face it - Linux is still at the moment on your PC because you are technically interested in it (or it is part of your job)and can see it as the way forward - then, and only then, we will see PC store's staff demonstrating this superior alternative. It isn't there yet. Desktop PCs need an interface that my Gran can use. If it doesn't pass this grade then it won't go mainstream. Gnome and KDE are striving in this area, but why don't we all use them - because it isn't even up to scratch for use more technically adept people, let alone the average Joe Bloggs. The day Microsoft ends up in a museum I can stop writing emails like this. I'm fed up of the Microsoft v. Linux debate. I'm fed up of people saying "I get forced to use NT" or "I won't use it because it is Microsoft". Grow up. It is on your desktop because there are more people in the world than yourself. It won't happen overnight the change from MS to Linux. But whilst it is happening, get on with life and enjoy yourself. Hit that Start button as many times as you like and wonder why there is a shutdown command on it - but don't complain to Microsoft - just help develop Linux a lot further. Then let the devlopers of the Linux world get on with their work in producing the next big OS - because then we can all live happily ever after. Kev Jackson -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Suport here on the SuSE list is world calss , even the windows support on this non windows list is superb Constant help and VERY minimal flaming At 09:05 AM 5/24/2000 +0100, Kevin Jackson wrote:
Firstly I want to make it clear that I am a Linux advocate and want it to become an alternative to Windows. And it will, Linux is becoming a very usable OS for the general public. The support is unbelievable.
BUT...
Linux has its shortcomings. It still needs another year or so development before you can walk into EVERY PC store and be able to choose a Linux PC in very much the same way you have the choice of Windows and Macs.
Now, Windows in all its incarnations has its shortcomings aswell, but it is a mainstream product. It won't go away tomorrow. Windows NT is their best product yet - In my experience NT is very easy to install.
Just s few weeks ago 'they' forced me to install NT on my system at my (new) job. At home, I am using Linux exclusive for over 5 years.
It is hard to install NT... You get error messages which have nothing to do with the problem. If (when!) something goes wrong, you get no relevant information and your only hope is to reboot the damned thing again. I'm not trying to be funny. I really did not understand the messages the few times there were error-messages.
You don't understand because you say you've used Linux for the past 5 years. Now, imagine people coming from Windows and going to Linux. They are in the same boat. What does that say about Linux then? If you say NT isn't perfect - then Linux isn't neither.
In work I work with both Linux and NT. And they coexist great. I don't need to put NT down in order to make Linux look better. There is far too much ANTI MICROSOFT in ALL Linux chatrooms/mailing lists. But where would we be without it? I bet the vast majority of the people on this list started off with a DOS machine. Ok, you have MS DOS, PC DOS and DR DOS but the fact of the matter is that MS DOS one out. Ok, you say the marketing was brilliant... but MS took the PC market by storm. What was available at that time? Not very much. And I agree, if Linux came out then then we will all be using Linux machines now... but it didn't happen like that. Face it - the fact is it DID NOT happen like that. Get used to it. Linux has improved on areas of OSes that we've loved to "hate". So it is fair to say, this - Windows is on every desktop because people know how to use it - from whatever their background and technical expertise (or lack thereof). How it ended up on their PC is another matter and something which goes into marketing and not technicallity. They know how to use it because they have grown up with it. I'm surely not the only one on this list who grew up with DOS5/6.x/Windows3.x/Win9x/NT and am making a transition to Linux. Why am I making that transition? Not because I hate Microsoft. Not because I have to reboot Windows everytime I install something. But because I want to be able to do things I can't with Windows. In the same light, I still use Windows because there is a lot which I can't do with Linux. I can see Linux only getting better and better - it happens that way. When the Linux world gets an environment that ALL walks of life can use, because, lets face it - Linux is still at the moment on your PC because you are technically interested in it (or it is part of your job)and can see it as the way forward - then, and only then, we will see PC store's staff demonstrating this superior alternative. It isn't there yet. Desktop PCs need an interface that my Gran can use. If it doesn't pass this grade then it won't go mainstream. Gnome and KDE are striving in this area, but why don't we all use them - because it isn't even up to scratch for use more technically adept people, let alone the average Joe Bloggs.
The day Microsoft ends up in a museum I can stop writing emails like this. I'm fed up of the Microsoft v. Linux debate. I'm fed up of people saying "I get forced to use NT" or "I won't use it because it is Microsoft". Grow up. It is on your desktop because there are more people in the world than yourself. It won't happen overnight the change from MS to Linux. But whilst it is happening, get on with life and enjoy yourself. Hit that Start button as many times as you like and wonder why there is a shutdown command on it - but don't complain to Microsoft - just help develop Linux a lot further. Then let the devlopers of the Linux world get on with their work in producing the next big OS - because then we can all live happily ever after.
Kev Jackson
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Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
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I will address the "Where would we be without M4?" We would not even look at computers in the same way as we do now. Your grannie would use computers on a daily basis and never even know it. The platforms would look nothing like they do today. There would be a different paradigm to using computers that you cannot even grasp because you have aligned yourself with M$ and believe all the innovation BS M$ marketeers produce. Microsoft has stifled the way computers are percieved for long enough. Where would we be without M$ INDEED? We would be so far beyond the PC even I probably cannot imagine all the different ways things would be tied to computers. I think firstly they would probably not be called computers, just appliances for getting the job done, whatever that job is. Thw wintel platform has stifled all thought about the way things could be. My two cents Kevin Jackson wrote:
But where would we be without it? I bet the vast majority of the people on this list started off with a DOS machine. Ok, you have MS DOS, PC DOS and DR DOS but the fact of the matter is that MS DOS one out. Ok, you say the marketing was brilliant... but MS took the PC market by storm. What was available at that time? Not very much.
-- Michael H. Collins http://www.linuxlink.com Admiral of OpenSourcery Penguinista Navy The Ultimate WM http://www.xfce.org Fun with the Austin Linux group http://www.austinlug.org Need a Real Texas Radio Fix? http://www.texasrebelradio.com -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Some thoughts on the Admiralty's and Kevin's perceptive comments.
But where would we be without it? I bet the vast majority of the people on this list started off with a DOS machine. > >
We would not even look at computers in the same way as we do now. Your grannie would use computers on a daily basis and never even know it.
The majority of folks in the World today started off on Windows with a smaller percentage having started on Macs. On a fairly regular basis I encounter a number who are still struggling to *start off* on anything useful despite having paid plenty for the latest WinPuter. There is this fantasy that Windoz makes it easier for new users and they buy in thinking they won't have learn anything technologically challenging. I regularly encounter these folks whose email freezes up the moment you suggest that they pull up a DOS shell and enter a 3 letter command. The cyber prognosis for Mac users is typically a little better - they get some things done soon after unpacking the computer and so feel less intimidated by the whole thing. The brutal reality is that both Windoz and Mac users arrive at a point in the person-machine relationship that demands delving into Beyond GUIness or at least into Deeply Nested Dialogtopia. There is currently no such thing as the state of KnowCyberNothingness with today's OS platforms. It is a marketing illusion - mere smoke and mirrors. And there are hundreds of millions of CyberCripples infected with KnowCyberNothingness lining all sides of the digital highway to prove it. A good metric for actually examining the current state of CyberDumb is the rate at which an Active-X virus spreads. Years ago software engineers were astounded to see Microsoft introducing a technology that would potentially let outsiders do anything to your computer - write data to the hard disk, format the hard disk or even smoke the system board via Flash programming. Java's reason to exist was largely that it was designed not to allow this - that was the design intent. Just imagine the wide open alternative: anyone, anywhere on the world wide web can potentially do anything to anyone else's computer via ActiveAny. How many computer users actually know that anything they click in an OverlyOptimisticOutlook e-mail window is potentially an ActiveAny component that might fry their Flash memory? Apparently not very many, judging by the rate at which an e-mail virus spreads these days. This is pretty fundamental knowledge, akin to "we drive on right (or left) side of the road in this country." Both the amount of damage per episode and rate of spread, serve as strong indicators that the marketing spread illusion which says, "You can use today's computers and know nothing," is just not true. Where indeed would we be without MS Marketeers. Perhaps we would place more emphasis on training. I tried since S-100 days to get my wife using a computer - no joy! A few years ago she took a course from an instructor with that very rare and valuable talent for teaching new users. I am astounded at how much she has learned in just a few years - even on MS Windoz - even from ME, now. I once got kicked out of an 11th grade English class for a satirical essay on the value of creativity over rigid conformance that proposed we would one day think our ideas into hardware (perhaps a case of too much science fiction). After many years of doing system and software engineering, I suspect that we will not see the computer that we can think ideas into, for quite a while yet. While we are waiting for the Marketeer's dream of a computer so smart that the user is not needed (shows how smart Marketeers are), we need to start examining the alternatives. The interesting question for Linux, KDE, GNOME, SAMBA and Apache is, " How can we seduce, cajole and enlighten folks who think they do not want to learn about computers, into incrementally discovering that they are power users?" This seems the most important challenge now. Ed Scott PS - In the interest of cross-informing, visit here for Kakworm patch from MS (remove leading &): &www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/ms99032.asp -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Yeah, but people want the 'puter to be an appliance - as in fridge - and not a chore. Thus Windoze. Although i like Linux and all, have you tried using a Java IDE like JBuilder or AnyJ on it? They run like pigs...that are pregnant. (Forgive my metaphors. I didn't do too well in poetry class) Check that out? Methinks we should direct people to the next generation PDA's as in Palm, the new Psion?, and their like. Those are appliance computers. Point with the stylus and everything goes....Like a mobile phone. Just my two cents Clifford ...Well, I know we're dying and there's no sign of a parachute... Tori Amos On Thu, 25 May 2000, Ed Scott wrote:
Some thoughts on the Admiralty's and Kevin's perceptive comments.
But where would we be without it? I bet the vast majority of the people on this list started off with a DOS machine. > >
We would not even look at computers in the same way as we do now. Your grannie would use computers on a daily basis and never even know it.
The majority of folks in the World today started off on Windows with a smaller percentage having started on Macs. On a fairly regular basis I encounter a number who are still struggling to *start off* on anything useful despite having paid plenty for the latest WinPuter. There is this fantasy that Windoz makes it easier for new users and they buy in thinking they won't have learn anything technologically challenging. I regularly encounter these folks whose email freezes up the moment you suggest that they pull up a DOS shell and enter a 3 letter command. The cyber prognosis for Mac users is typically a little better - they get some things done soon after unpacking the computer and so feel less intimidated by the whole thing. The brutal reality is that both Windoz and Mac users arrive at a point in the person-machine relationship that demands delving into Beyond GUIness or at least into Deeply Nested Dialogtopia. There is currently no such thing as the state of KnowCyberNothingness with today's OS platforms. It is a marketing illusion - mere smoke and mirrors. And there are hundreds of millions of CyberCripples infected with KnowCyberNothingness lining all sides of the digital highway to prove it.
A good metric for actually examining the current state of CyberDumb is the rate at which an Active-X virus spreads. Years ago software engineers were astounded to see Microsoft introducing a technology that would potentially let outsiders do anything to your computer - write data to the hard disk, format the hard disk or even smoke the system board via Flash programming. Java's reason to exist was largely that it was designed not to allow this - that was the design intent. Just imagine the wide open alternative: anyone, anywhere on the world wide web can potentially do anything to anyone else's computer via ActiveAny. How many computer users actually know that anything they click in an OverlyOptimisticOutlook e-mail window is potentially an ActiveAny component that might fry their Flash memory? Apparently not very many, judging by the rate at which an e-mail virus spreads these days. This is pretty fundamental knowledge, akin to "we drive on right (or left) side of the road in this country." Both the amount of damage per episode and rate of spread, serve as strong indicators that the marketing spread illusion which says, "You can use today's computers and know nothing," is just not true.
Where indeed would we be without MS Marketeers. Perhaps we would place more emphasis on training. I tried since S-100 days to get my wife using a computer - no joy! A few years ago she took a course from an instructor with that very rare and valuable talent for teaching new users. I am astounded at how much she has learned in just a few years - even on MS Windoz - even from ME, now. I once got kicked out of an 11th grade English class for a satirical essay on the value of creativity over rigid conformance that proposed we would one day think our ideas into hardware (perhaps a case of too much science fiction). After many years of doing system and software engineering, I suspect that we will not see the computer that we can think ideas into, for quite a while yet. While we are waiting for the Marketeer's dream of a computer so smart that the user is not needed (shows how smart Marketeers are), we need to start examining the alternatives. The interesting question for Linux, KDE, GNOME, SAMBA and Apache is, " How can we seduce, cajole and enlighten folks who think they do not want to learn about computers, into incrementally discovering that they are power users?" This seems the most important challenge now.
Ed Scott PS - In the interest of cross-informing, visit here for Kakworm patch from MS (remove leading &): &www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/ms99032.asp
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I do agree that Linux has its shortcomings (ex. all hardware support, gaming), but it is getting there. But Linux for the masses are a lot easier now, at least for what a secretary or a student might do, such as word processing, instant messaging, playing sounds, browse the web etc... For the point of Microsoft vs Linux, I think it wouldn't matter much. There's always a bunch who don't like Linux or Microsoft, and I do believe that developers are doing a very good job of making them work together. I could do most of what I do in either Linux or Windows, and I think the choice should belong to the user. So, stop this rant, because I don't enjoy sifting through hundreds of e-mail a day. We're Linux people, and we should know better that the choice is up to us and the others, not belong to some group of people arguing. Calyth -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Hello Calyth, Stop about this please, The Answer is "Linux is Ready" For instance kernel Linux is used by "Titanic" film. For all, Please if posting don't in HTML format If Replying please delete unnecessary word, this because too much email, and bigger and bigger the size of email. If you from Indonesia, you will understand about my Country. Maybe my country is the slowest connection in the world. Thursday, May 25, 2000, 5:26:09 AM, you wrote: C> together. I could do most of what I do in either Linux or Windows, and I C> think the choice should belong to the user. C> So, stop this rant, because I don't enjoy sifting through hundreds of C> e-mail a day. -- Best regards, Syeh mailto:A3@Telkom.net -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
participants (7)
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A3＠Telkom.net -
calyth＠home.com -
clifford.o＠virgin.net -
edscott＠worldnet.att.net -
kevin.jackson＠jhallpr.demon.co.uk -
mhtexcollins＠austin.rr.com -
samelash＠ix.netcom.com