zypper up with non-SUSE repos in Tumbleweed
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why - I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories. Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date. Any thoughts?
Hello, Am Freitag, 24. September 2021, 19:47:02 CEST schrieb George from the tribe:
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why -
I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories.
Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date.
Any thoughts?
"Security" and "update once a month" don't match - in worst case, you keep a security issue for 29 days. I'd recommend to do updates more often. (I usually run zypper dup whenever new packages are available, which in some weeks means daily.) Not zypper dup'ing the day before a business trip is understandable and ok, but not updating for a month isn't the best idea IMHO. Besides that - it's a very rare event that Tumbleweed breaks, and if you use btrfs, you can easily revert to the previous state. Which is something I never had to do ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- Yes Karl, your machine has a battery! But no ac adapter :-) Unfortunately it is the battery in the BT Mouse and it won't be able to power your system for very long :-) [Stefan Seyfried in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=221999]
On 24/09/2021 19.47, George from the tribe wrote:
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why -
I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories.
Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date.
Any thoughts?
I will not tell you that you should not use TW if you have business trips and can not update several times a week >:-P Nope, I will not tell you that >:-P Some daemon got in the typewriter and spoke. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
* Carlos E. R.
On 24/09/2021 19.47, George from the tribe wrote:
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why -
I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories.
Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date.
Any thoughts?
I will not tell you that you should not use TW if you have business trips and can not update several times a week >:-P
Nope, I will not tell you that >:-P
Some daemon got in the typewriter and spoke.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
no problem using tumbleweed and delaying updates for several days to even several weeks, but one *should* look for security advisories and weigh their importance. fwiw, I have been using Tumbleweed and/or it's grandfather for many years now for my work environment w/o a problem nor have I lost any work or work time except for my own stupid mistakes. Tumbleweed is a ROCK. and my work computer is ~10 years old now. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
* Andrei Borzenkov
On 24.09.2021 22:52, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
no problem using tumbleweed and delaying updates for several days to even several weeks, but one *should* look for security advisories
Care to explain where security advisories for Tumbleweed are to be found?
I have seen such on the factory list -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On 9/24/21 19:47, George from the tribe wrote:
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why -
I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories.
Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date.
Any thoughts?
With a mix of official openSUSE repos and other repos in Tumbleweed, the biggest problem is that the packages may change vendor between those repos without notice, and the risk is that this could break the basic packages from TW at lesat. I'd suggest to prevent changing the vendor for packages with: $ zypper -v dup --no-allow-vendor-change Additionally, you could reduce the risk of mixing by updating only from the oS:TW repos. Have a nice day, Berny
On 25.09.2021 01:50, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 9/24/21 19:47, George from the tribe wrote:
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why -
I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories.
Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date.
Any thoughts?
With a mix of official openSUSE repos and other repos in Tumbleweed, the biggest problem is that the packages may change vendor between those repos without notice,
This should not happen unless you explicitly changed default configuration or are using additional options during "zypper dup" that allow vendor change without asking you first. By default zypper should ask you when resolution requires vendor change (or is not possible without vendor change). If user changed default configuration or is using extra option user is expected to understand implications. More important practical consideration is that third party repositories may lag behind Tumbleweed regarding necessary rebuilds and you do not really have any indication that packages were rebuilt to match Tumbleweed. It is more or less trial and error. From following forums I would say these are not isolated cases.
and the risk is that this could break the basic packages from TW at lesat. I'd suggest to prevent changing the vendor for packages with: $ zypper -v dup --no-allow-vendor-change
Additionally, you could reduce the risk of mixing by updating only from the oS:TW repos.
Have a nice day, Berny
On 9/24/21 17:50, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
With a mix of official openSUSE repos and other repos in Tumbleweed, the biggest problem is that the packages may change vendor between those repos without notice, and the risk is that this could break the basic packages from TW at lesat. I'd suggest to prevent changing the vendor for packages with: $ zypper -v dup --no-allow-vendor-change
Additionally, you could reduce the risk of mixing by updating only from the oS:TW repos.
Have a nice day, Berny
All good suggestions from everyone, thanks. I am glad to know that people have had positive long term experiences with TW. On the latest update I just did with TW, it broke my Microsoft Teams application, which I use for work, and it is really hard to figure out what exactly went wrong. Fortunately, there is an alternative Teams app called Teams-Insiders, which basically is the same thing as Teams. It is really kind of weird, because Teams and Teams-Insiders are the same, even the same version, so they are supposed to be identical, but Teams won't load, while Teams-Insiders will load. Of course those are non-oss apps from Microsoft, but I don't have a choice as our company has gone with Teams. That is only 1 small example, and I haven't had any other problems, so I will continue to use TW. -- George Box: 15.2 | Plasma 5 | AMD Phenom IIX4 | 64 | 32GB Laptop #1: 15.2 | Plasma 5 | AMD FX 7TH GEN | 64 | 32GB Laptop #2: TW | Plasma 5 | Core i7 | 64 | 16GB
On 25/09/2021 11.42, George from the tribe wrote: ...
All good suggestions from everyone, thanks. I am glad to know that people have had positive long term experiences with TW. On the latest update I just did with TW, it broke my Microsoft Teams application, which I use for work, and it is really hard to figure out what exactly went wrong. Fortunately, there is an alternative Teams app called Teams-Insiders, which basically is the same thing as Teams. It is really kind of weird, because Teams and Teams-Insiders are the same, even the same version, so they are supposed to be identical, but Teams won't load, while Teams-Insiders will load.
-insiders is the Beta version, for the Beta testing team (selected clients). For example, the insiders version of Windows 11 is more tolerant than the final version, that refuses to run or update in "older" machines. It is kind of funny using a /static/ proprietary application on a rolling distro. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
* George from the tribe
On 9/24/21 17:50, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
With a mix of official openSUSE repos and other repos in Tumbleweed, the biggest problem is that the packages may change vendor between those repos without notice, and the risk is that this could break the basic packages from TW at lesat. I'd suggest to prevent changing the vendor for packages with: $ zypper -v dup --no-allow-vendor-change
Additionally, you could reduce the risk of mixing by updating only from the oS:TW repos.
Have a nice day, Berny
All good suggestions from everyone, thanks. I am glad to know that people have had positive long term experiences with TW. On the latest update I just did with TW, it broke my Microsoft Teams application, which I use for work, and it is really hard to figure out what exactly went wrong. Fortunately, there is an alternative Teams app called Teams-Insiders, which basically is the same thing as Teams. It is really kind of weird, because Teams and Teams-Insiders are the same, even the same version, so they are supposed to be identical, but Teams won't load, while Teams-Insiders will load.
Of course those are non-oss apps from Microsoft, but I don't have a choice as our company has gone with Teams.
That is only 1 small example, and I haven't had any other problems, so I will continue to use TW.
iianm, the solution for a working Teams was discussed on opensuse-factory just after the glibc upgrade. but anything is possible when you must work in/with a M$ environment. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On 24.09.2021 20:47, George from the tribe wrote:
Can someone tell me if this is a bad idea and why -
Yes, it is bad idea. You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed to start with. Zypper today even warns you when you are trying to do it.
I want to do regular updates, like security updates to google chrome and things like that, for all my programs and apps that are managed by non-openSUSE repositories.
Then do regular zypper dup updates for the whole system only like once a month. That way I minimize my chances of something breaking right before a critical business trip or something like that, but still keep my security up to date.
Any thoughts?
Andrei Borzenkov composed on 2021-09-25 08:52 (UTC+0300):
You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed
Care to elaborate on why the harsh term "never"? I've been doing zypper up for as many years as TW has existed, as I did before with Factory, and as a normal practice. I follow up zypper up with zypper dup, and don't have problems as a consequence. Splitting the upgrade into two groups provides information about the process I like seeing that I wouldn't notice otherwise. Actually I split into three groups, starting with a script that upgrades package management and select foundational packages that I run prior to up and dup. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 25/09/2021 08.12, Felix Miata wrote:
Andrei Borzenkov composed on 2021-09-25 08:52 (UTC+0300):
You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed
Care to elaborate on why the harsh term "never"?
Andrei is absolutely right, you should *never* use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed. I missed the OP was doing that or I would have said the same. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-25 12:21 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Andrei Borzenkov composed on 2021-09-25 08:52 (UTC+0300):
You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed
Care to elaborate on why the harsh term "never"?
Andrei is absolutely right, you should *never* use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed.
I missed the OP was doing that or I would have said the same.
My experience proves otherwise. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 30/09/2021 07.27, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-25 12:21 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Andrei Borzenkov composed on 2021-09-25 08:52 (UTC+0300):
You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed
Care to elaborate on why the harsh term "never"?
Andrei is absolutely right, you should *never* use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed.
I missed the OP was doing that or I would have said the same.
My experience proves otherwise.
You are using "up" followed by a "dup". The problems caused by the "up" in your case are cured by the subsequent "dup", so you don't see them. Normally. For example, an "up" may not update a package because the versions it sees as newer are lower. The "dup" does the correct thing, which is downgrade the package silently. If this does not happens, the installation breaks. On other cases, the package is gone and zypper dup deletes it, which is the action expected and designed for by the opensuse devs and packagers. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-30 09:34 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-25 12:21 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Andrei Borzenkov composed on 2021-09-25 08:52 (UTC+0300):
You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed
Care to elaborate on why the harsh term "never"?
Andrei is absolutely right, you should *never* use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed.
I missed the OP was doing that or I would have said the same.
My experience proves otherwise.
You are using "up" followed by a "dup". The problems caused by the "up" in your case are cured by the subsequent "dup", so you don't see them. Normally.
For example, an "up" may not update a package because the versions it sees as newer are lower. The "dup" does the correct thing, which is downgrade the package silently. If this does not happens, the installation breaks. On other cases, the package is gone and zypper dup deletes it, which is the action expected and designed for by the opensuse devs and packagers.
None of that justifies the descriptor "*never*". In my considerable years of using both as described, nothing breaks by using up followed at some point by dup. Using only up simply leaves an upgrade incomplete. So the right way to describe use of zypper is that only dup can complete an upgrade. That only dup can finish the job is not a reason to say never use up. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 30/09/2021 10.14, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-30 09:34 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-25 12:21 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Andrei Borzenkov composed on 2021-09-25 08:52 (UTC+0300):
You should never use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed
Care to elaborate on why the harsh term "never"?
Andrei is absolutely right, you should *never* use "zypper up" with Tumbleweed.
I missed the OP was doing that or I would have said the same.
My experience proves otherwise.
You are using "up" followed by a "dup". The problems caused by the "up" in your case are cured by the subsequent "dup", so you don't see them. Normally.
For example, an "up" may not update a package because the versions it sees as newer are lower. The "dup" does the correct thing, which is downgrade the package silently. If this does not happens, the installation breaks. On other cases, the package is gone and zypper dup deletes it, which is the action expected and designed for by the opensuse devs and packagers.
None of that justifies the descriptor "*never*". In my considerable years of using both as described, nothing breaks by using up followed at some point by dup. Using only up simply leaves an upgrade incomplete.
No, broken.
So the right way to describe use of zypper is that only dup can complete an upgrade. That only dup can finish the job is not a reason to say never use up.
Sorry, no. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Carlos E. R. composed on 2021-09-30 10:18 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
None of that justifies the descriptor "*never*". In my considerable years of using both as described, nothing breaks by using up followed at some point by dup. Using only up simply leaves an upgrade incomplete.
No, broken.
Just as likely "broken" by including the more severe (including known broken missed by QA and required by dup but not up) changes instead of just the innocuous ones. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Hi, ...am I the only one who uses zypper repo priorities to get more control over what gets installed from where? I have some systems here that have been "zypper dup'ed" all the way from Leap 42.x to 15.2 and no problems... and yes I AM using additional repos - in some cases 20 or more. Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On 30/09/2021 10.21, Mathias Homann wrote:
Hi,
...am I the only one who uses zypper repo priorities to get more control over what gets installed from where?
Many do :-)
I have some systems here that have been "zypper dup'ed" all the way from Leap 42.x to 15.2 and no problems... and yes I AM using additional repos - in some cases 20 or more.
I assume you mean you used "zypper dup" on Leap (not TW) to upgrade from one version to another. Yes, that's the intended usage, but using multiple repos was not covered properly since "recently". Recently as in a few years, can't say exactly when. Probably was worked on about the 42 times. I hope, though, that for the regular updates of Leap, within the same version, you did not use "dup". However, the OP was not using Leap, but Tumbleweed, and in TW using "zypper up" eventually breaks the system; Andrei says that the modern command warns about it. When to use "dup" or "up" doesn't seem to be clearly documented and some people don't know about it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
participants (8)
-
Andrei Borzenkov -
Bernhard Voelker -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Felix Miata -
George from the tribe -
Mathias Homann -
Patrick Shanahan