On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

There have been several posts to this list recently in which people proudly proclaimed to have Microsoft-free systems. Perhaps a few words are in order why I and quite a few others have not gone that route.

of course, you are 100% entitled to run anything you want. i just thought i'd pick up on your troll.

Third, there are some programs and other facilities that just have no equivalent in Linux and probably never will. My best examples are TurboTax and AOL, but there are others.

turbotax for the web, and i wont even talk about AOL. DVD support is lacking though..:)

Fourth, I often need to interchange documents with people who are running the latest version of Word. Yes, I know about Star Office and use it, but it hasn't (and probably can't) keep up with the Microsoft updates. People will use what they will use, and I don't think I'd get very far in convincing them to eschew Word.

you let others decide what you'll run? if someone wants you to read something, then they'll happily export it to an open format.

Make no mistake about it: I have no love for Microsoft.

Make no mistake about it: Microsoft makes a decent gaming platform. i have a dual boot machine that plays all the new games great. but that dont mean im gonna try to run productivity apps on my Sony Playstation. Windows is a toy, nothing more. -- ======================================================================== Rocky McGaugh Atipa Linux Solutions Product Development www.atipa.com rocky@smluc.org rmcgaugh@atipa.com ======================================================================== -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On 24 Apr 2000, at 18:32, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

There have been several posts to this list recently in which people proudly proclaimed to have Microsoft-free systems. Perhaps a few words are in order why I and quite a few others have not gone that route.

I still use it because I get paid to support it. My home network has Win9x, NT workstation and server (on an 486-66 with 32 MB RAM-- talk about sloooow...) Netware, and Linux. I also had FreeBSD until the hard drive it was on blew up. Also, my wife has to have her Pegasus Mail. Personally, I like mutt.... Cheers, Dennis "Custard pies are a sort of esperanto: a universal language." --Noel Godin -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

"Paul W. Abrahams" wrote:

There have been several posts to this list recently in which people proudly proclaimed to have Microsoft-free systems. Perhaps a few words are in order why I and quite a few others have not gone that route.

I rarely boot into NT, though I do have NT certification, and several years experience with the OS. I am interested in your opinions on this subject.

First, Linux runs perfectly well in the presence of Windows. I know of nothing in Linux that suffers the least bit from the presence of Windows in some other partitions on the hard drive.

I don't like to mix OSs on the same HD just because I find it to be inflexible. If I have a mixed HD and want to remove it to another system, I have to worry about the impact on two OSs.

Disks are cheap enough now so there's plenty of room for both systems. Perhaps some folks might feel that Windows contaminates their systems spiritually, much as Orthodox Jews avoid ``treif'', but I don't buy that.

There's that too. ;-)

Third, there are some programs and other facilities that just have no equivalent in Linux and probably never will. My best examples are TurboTax and AOL, but there are others.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, AOL owns about a 10% share of Red Hat, and through their Netscape subsidiary AOL produces some high-end server products which run on Linux. It is very likely that AOL will port to Linux. It wasn't that long ago the CEO of Intuit was complaining about MS business practices. Currently Corel is rolling out WPO2K, which is a Win32 product which runs on Linux using wine. It has it's problems, but I expect it to improve. If Corel can pull this off, I expect a lot of vendors to start writing to wine rather than to Windows. This is the type of major implementation wine has been needing for a long time. Hopefully this will draw more attention and resources to wine. If wine becomes capable of supporting a sufficiently large number of Win32 applications perhaps people will be more inclined to reject MS changes to an industry standard Win32 than they are to reject third party software which is undermined by changes in MS's OS. If and when the DoJ breaks up MS into an OS company and an office product company, we may even see a genuine interest in porting MSO to Linux. As for TurboTax and Quicken, they are the main reason I have kept NT on my system. The other reason is that I still have a requirement to make sure my products can server Windows clients. I haven't attempted to work with MS Word files in WPO2K, but if I can get a 90% success rate, I will have one less reason to boot into NT.

Fourth, I often need to interchange documents with people who are running the latest version of Word. Yes, I know about Star Office and use it, but it hasn't (and probably can't) keep up with the Microsoft updates. People will use what they will use, and I don't think I'd get very far in convincing them to eschew Word.

At the risk of biting the hand that feeds me, I wish to voice a disagreement with the way the US Government has handled this question of proprietary document formats. I am required by law (at least that is what I've been told) to deliver my documentation in MS Word format. This forces me to use MS products to create any work related documentation. I emphatically insist that this has been a major waste of government resources due to the miserable way MS Word handles outlining. Most of what I write is procedures documentation. This requires extensive use of outlining. I have spent far more time trying to get Word to do this correctly than I have actually writing procedures. I believe the government should specify a reasonably flexible and powerful electronic document standard that all software vendors must adhere to in order to provide word processing software to the Government. This standard document format should be configurable as the default 'save' format of the Word Processor software. The Government is a huge purchaser of IT hardware and software. If the Government insists on open standards for day-to-day usage it will influence the industry toward support of these standards. Of course the Government can screw up a good idea. Just look at POSIX. Then again look at TCP/IP! As for me, I do everything in my power to promote the use of open standards in the systems I develop for the Government.

There are a few other contexts in which Linux hasn't been able to successfully match Windows. The average casual user has little hope of configuring Linux successfully; you can't just load the CD, choose the default at every opportunity, and end up with a usable system. Nor can you just turn on your computer, wait for a minute or two, and then without further ado go about whatever it was you wanted to do. And for reasons I don't entirely understand, the quality of many graphics under X isn't up to that of the Windows GUI; just compare running Netscape under X with running it under Windows.

We really need to help SuSE refine their YAST2 installation. I actually did a painless install of 6.4 with YAST2. Grant you, I've spilled some blood over sound cards and mice using YAST2 on other systems. Hey, at least in Linux you don't have to REBOOT THE FINE SERVER just to change the font size in windows. MS claimed I wouldn't have to reboot the OS every time I made a configuration change in W2K. They were correct. I didn't have to reboot to change the fonts. I have to reboot for just about every other configuration change I make. For a person who's primary job function is to figure out how to make computers do new and different things, the requirement to reboot constantly can actually lead to clinically dangerous levels of frustration. I don't understand what you mean about just turning on the system, waiting a few minutes and having at it. If you mean one must log in, then I must admit I don't see the issue the same way. I use NT which requires a log in. I like that feature at work, and also here at home. My landloard/housemate uses my systems, and he scares the F*** out of me! He started telling me about problems he was having downloading and installing some software for looking at dirty movies. If you don't like the requirement for a login, it is possible to eliminate at least the password. Take a look at the PAM documentation: file:/usr/doc/packages/pam/ps/ As regards the "quality of graphics" I am again unsure what you mean. I admit Netscape 4.72 is rather crash happy. Other than that, I don't have the least problem with graphics on Linux.

Make no mistake about it: I have no love for Microsoft. Their software is generally badly designed, fascistic, and paternalistic; it is forever making assumptions about what you want that more often than not are wrong. Their business practices are the pits. I particularly resent the way that they've regularly sabotaged standards such as the ones from the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), and their current attempt to configure Win2000 so as to lock out non-Microsoft servers. I would be absolutely delighted to see the Justice Department chop them, like Gaul, into three parts.

Paul Abrahams

An interesting thing has happened regarding hotmail in the last 24 hours. Something has changed which causes Netscape 6 beta 1 to crash deterministically when logging in from a W2K box. Is this more of MS's dirty tricks? A can honestly say I have used Win98 for less than 8 hours in my entire life, and have had it installed for a totally of one hour on a machine I have control over. I own it, but I'm not sure why. To some extent I have made a concerted effort to avoid using MS products when I don't have to. I do like some of what they provide, I do believe their basic systems admin utilities are more intuitive than those on Un*x. This too is changing. Steve -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/