Hi! I'm a newbie to Linux but not to computers. I started with a 8088 in 1987. I have purchased three boxes from various manufacturers and I built the last two, Pentium II's, 333 and 400 MgH. After years with DOS and Windoz I saw a box with Red Hat and decided to learn Linux. Didn't get far with Red Hat before I noticed an advertisement for SUSE. Purchased 5.3 and Applix Office Solutions. I am a retired Airline Transport Pilot (40 years), and have attended many schools for different types of aircraft over the years. I know quite a bit about the learning process and how to convey knowledge from one person to another. If the aircraft operating manuals were as arcane as the Linux literature, there would be piles of Aluminum intersped with body parts and various colors of fluids at the end of each runway in the world.
You have just encountered the biggest exposed nerve of the Linux community. The programmers who bring us the OS we love are just that--programmers. They get their kicks out of programming, not writing about programs. I guess it is just part of Open Source. On SuSE's behalf, they have taken a major step forward with the announcement that Wvdial will be included in forcoming releases of SuSE. If they can work it into the installation process smoothly, SuSE is going to be hard to beat for newbies. On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, you wrote:
Hi!
I'm a newbie to Linux but not to computers. I started with a 8088 in 1987. I have purchased three boxes from various manufacturers and I built the last two, Pentium II's, 333 and 400 MgH.
After years with DOS and Windoz I saw a box with Red Hat and decided to learn Linux. Didn't get far with Red Hat before I noticed an advertisement for SUSE. Purchased 5.3 and Applix Office Solutions.
I am a retired Airline Transport Pilot (40 years), and have attended many schools for different types of aircraft over the years. I know quite a bit about the learning process and how to convey knowledge from one person to another. If the aircraft operating manuals were as arcane as the Linux literature, there would be piles of Aluminum intersped with body parts and various colors of fluids at the end of each runway in the world.
From reading your posts for the last month I gather I have joined a long line of people who have found that the most difficult thing I have ever tried to learn is how to configure PPP.
I have purchased and read the Linux Unleashed, Linux in 24 hours, The No BS Guide to Linux and the Doctor Linux along with SuSe Linux 5.3 manual. In addition, I have downloaded and printed the HOWTO's, Man Pages and Doc's.
I'm not asking for help, the challenge of figuring this thing out is enough for me to keep going.
What I'm suggesting to SuSe is; Hire a teacher to write your manuals! Get someone who has experience in behavior modification, who can start at the beginning and offer an explanation to someone who is completely unknowledgeable about Linux.
Your manual expects the user to have prior knowledge and that is an assumption on your part. In addition, please try to keep the manual current with the software demonstration.
And finally, please take those red screens that do not allow the user to make changes when they have mistakenly entered incorrect information and throw them away. Particularly the ones in YaST: i.e., Hostname and Domain Name.
Thank you,
Joe Ryan
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-- -+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+- Kenneth Archer / San Antonio, Texas karcher@idworld.net ICQ #24980801 -+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Joe Ryan wrote:
Hi!
I'm a newbie to Linux but not to computers. I started with a 8088 in 1987. I have purchased three boxes from various manufacturers and I built the last two, Pentium II's, 333 and 400 MgH.
After years with DOS and Windoz I saw a box with Red Hat and decided to learn Linux. Didn't get far with Red Hat before I noticed an advertisement for SUSE. Purchased 5.3 and Applix Office Solutions.
I am a retired Airline Transport Pilot (40 years), and have attended many schools for different types of aircraft over the years. I know quite a bit about the learning process and how to convey knowledge from one person to another. If the aircraft operating manuals were as arcane as the Linux literature, there would be piles of Aluminum intersped with body parts and various colors of fluids at the end of each runway in the world.
From reading your posts for the last month I gather I have joined a long line of people who have found that the most difficult thing I have ever tried to learn is how to configure PPP.
I have purchased and read the Linux Unleashed, Linux in 24 hours, The No BS Guide to Linux and the Doctor Linux along with SuSe Linux 5.3 manual. In addition, I have downloaded and printed the HOWTO's, Man Pages and Doc's.
I'm not asking for help, the challenge of figuring this thing out is enough for me to keep going.
What I'm suggesting to SuSe is; Hire a teacher to write your manuals! Get someone who has experience in behavior modification, who can start at the beginning and offer an explanation to someone who is completely unknowledgeable about Linux.
Your manual expects the user to have prior knowledge and that is an assumption on your part. In addition, please try to keep the manual current with the software demonstration.
And finally, please take those red screens that do not allow the user to make changes when they have mistakenly entered incorrect information and throw them away. Particularly the ones in YaST: i.e., Hostname and Domain Name.
Sorry for the long quote, but this was a necessity. Joe, you are absolutely correct, and although Linux diehards might disagree..., we do need a out of the box (dumb proofed) install, with auto detection of various hardware setups. Next to PPP, X-Windows would be next, offering a solution for other painless install of KDE, (which SuSE does quite well as of 5.3) and other frontends for X. One of the cool things with Linux is that you have a choice what GUI you want, and if you're not sure, then try 'em all. ;) As far as network setup goes, this can be a touchy area. Under Win9x it normally detects the card, irq and io address. What alot of people forget is that PnP is sometimes bad, and that if you've had NO DOS experience, (insert OS/2, Novell, Win 3.x) you might have no idea that you can run the dos setup pgm off the included floppy disk and setup the default IRQ, IO assignments. (note: good reason to have a DOS partition available) There are other areas of improvement on the installation of Linux, but it's gone a LONG way as apposed to even 2 years ago! Dana -- dlaude@execpc.com Dana J. Laude, Fluid Computer Designs Ltd (US) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Yeh windows is nice , when the plug and play works , otherwise , you have to fight with it. the nice thing about it is it will often tell you the setting to use , and which ones are free. However , evey few weeks/monthis Yo go into device manager and find two or three vdersions of the the same pice of hardware , or i gos and chages you vidio driver for a plian vanilla driver. Come on give me a break. Also , I do like the little programs that come with the newer nic cards. They will probe for the irq , iobas ectt, then set them up. Far better than the plug and play . Then these also give you the option to set them yourself and load the settings you want into the card. Two meny times I set aoptions , come back and find windows moved them around. ALL WE NEED is a simplified way to check for avialable setttings , sugest a working setting , and give the option to override it and use your own setting and keep it at that setting. WE DO NOT NEED THE PNP disaster that mmcky soft has pushed. Yegh kinux is a BIt?? to install at times , but hey , I like that once its done m you dont have to do it agien, Yess it could be made eiser. If they want linux in the compusa stores then there will have to be an simpler fool proof way to set it up , especialy the modem and vidio / xwindow. Just my .02C worht - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Samy Elashmawy wrote:
Yeh windows is nice , when the plug and play works , otherwise , you have to fight with it.
Ya, I just had to fight to put a pnp modem in an old computer. I had to create all 4 ports, just to get a com2, which is the only com port that cheap win modem works on. 2 hours to install a modem, and I cross my fingers everytime I boot the machine. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Got to love , Thats what makes linux so enlighting. I came in this morning , my sreen is now set to 800 X 600 , I had it set to 1024. thats windows for you. Yeh , I still got the two buig stumbling blocks on hold , till I reinstall linux (is on top of dos ) Then I can install xfree86 3.3.3 and hopefully tackle the modem/isp login chalange next. Luckily I the pnp modem has a set of real jumpers that when removed , and reset with only the needed jumpers will take it out of pnp and work via the jumpers. BTW , is it easier to just plug in an external modem ?? I would rahther not , I ahve enough tangled wires allready ? At 09:55 PM 12/15/1998 -0500, you wrote:
Samy Elashmawy wrote:
Yeh windows is nice , when the plug and play works , otherwise , you have to fight with it.
Ya, I just had to fight to put a pnp modem in an old computer. I had to create all 4 ports, just to get a com2, which is the only com port that cheap win modem works on. 2 hours to install a modem, and I cross my fingers everytime I boot the machine.
- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
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more nonsense from charles tonight I agree with you. It would be nice to have a pointer to a NICE doc that is HELP full for ppp users since it is one of the most common problems. A teacher is the person who needs to write this but to find one that understands ppp good and is a teacher and is a good teacher and one that has lots of time and one that enjoys both linux and teaching. On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Joe Ryan wrote:
After years with DOS and Windoz I saw a box with Red Hat and decided to Please use correct spelling. (funny I say that I can spend up to 20 mins correcting my spelling / email)
one person to another. If the aircraft operating manuals were as arcane as the Linux literature, there would be piles of Aluminum intersped with body parts and various colors of fluids at the end of each runway in the world. This would of not prevented swiss air 111 off the coast of Nova Scotia where at the bottom of the sea this is the site which should be petty much cleaned up by now.
From reading your posts for the last month I gather I have joined a long line of people who have found that the most difficult thing I have ever tried to learn is how to configure PPP.
I find PPP questions difficult to answer so I just end up deleting them.
I'm not asking for help, the challenge of figuring this thing out is enough for me to keep going.
What I'm suggesting to SuSe is; Hire a teacher to write your manuals! Get someone who has experience in behavior modification, who can start at the beginning and offer an explanation to someone who is completely unknowledgeable about Linux.
I very much agree.
Your manual expects the user to have prior knowledge and that is an assumption on your part. In addition, please try to keep the manual current with the software demonstration.
Very important too.
And finally, please take those red screens that do not allow the user to make changes when they have mistakenly entered incorrect information and throw them away. Particularly the ones in YaST: i.e., Hostname and Domain Name.
Thank you,
Joe Ryan
- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
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This will take all of 5 minutes to read, and another 10 minutes to check your scripts. <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~webspot/ppp.html"><A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~webspot/ppp.html</A">http://home.earthlink.net/~webspot/ppp.html</A</A>> What you REALLY need to do is find a local Linux User Group! If there's not one nearby, start one. -- Henry White <A HREF="mailto:henryw@gte.net">mailto:henryw@gte.net</A> - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
Henry White wrote:
What you REALLY need to do is find a local Linux User Group! If there's not one nearby, start one.
Sorry Henry but I don't think that is a viable solution. For a start there aren't enougn Linuxers around and the likelihood of finding enough people to start a _local_ user group is minimal. (For example, so far as I know there is only one other active Linux user where I live) And setting up a User Group to solve the probllem of getting ppp working is a bit of overkill. It should resolved by the distributors, RedHat, SuSe, Debian or whatever if they want Joe Public to use Linux. There is an alternative - persuade PC sales oulets to bundle Linux with new PCs instead of windross!! - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>
participants (8)
-
charlesiii＠theverge.com -
dlaude＠execpc.com -
henryw＠gte.net -
irisinc＠alaska.net -
jayell＠mcmail.com -
karcher＠idworld.net -
samelash＠ix.netcom.com -
zentara＠netfrog.net