[opensuse] Missing warning about use of btrfs in release notes
Today (it was not the first time probably but the first I noticed) the forum received a help request from a user with broken btrfs file system on 12.1. During the discussion it turned out that there is nowhere a warning in the release notes that this file system is experimental and does not have proper repair tools. I knew that from discussions about btrfs I followed, the person who had the problem did not. My question: How shall we help such an user, I simply pointed him to the mailing list. But my main concern is why is this nowhere mentioned in the release notes? Even in contrast to that the "Top features" advertise the new snapper which can even be misinterpreted by the reader as a further hint that btrfs is production ready or even recommended. If my assessment is wrong I am sorry, if not I would be happy to know if such a warning at a prominent place can be added to avoid that in the future (on the download page, change to realease notes?). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Decided to file a bug against the documentation Bug 733136 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733136 Missing warning about use of btrfs in release notes in openSUSE 12.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, November 28, 2011 19:26:36 Martin Helm wrote:
Decided to file a bug against the documentation
It should be against the release notes - let me change that.
Bug 733136 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733136 Missing warning about use of btrfs in release notes in openSUSE 12.1
Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, November 28, 2011 19:26:36 Martin Helm wrote:
Decided to file a bug against the documentation It should be against the release notes - let me change that.
Bug 733136 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733136 Missing warning about use of btrfs in release notes in openSUSE 12.1 Andreas Thank you. Looking at the activity there I am glad that it is seriously
Am 29.11.2011 10:10, schrieb Andreas Jaeger: treated. I hope all users read the release notes before starting their adventures with a new version (at least everybody should do that in an ideal world). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:23:21 Martin Helm wrote:
Am 29.11.2011 10:10, schrieb Andreas Jaeger:
On Monday, November 28, 2011 19:26:36 Martin Helm wrote:
Decided to file a bug against the documentation
It should be against the release notes - let me change that.
Bug 733136 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=733136 Missing warning about use of btrfs in release notes in openSUSE 12.1> Andreas
Thank you. Looking at the activity there I am glad that it is seriously treated. I hope all users read the release notes before starting their adventures with a new version (at least everybody should do that in an ideal world).
Martin, the release notes are available during installation as well - and those cannot be updated. Btw. I don't consider the filesystem as experimental any more - but yes, it's not as mature as others, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am 29.11.2011 12:57, schrieb Andreas Jaeger:
Martin, the release notes are available during installation as well - and those cannot be updated. Btw. I don't consider the filesystem as experimental any more - but yes, it's not as mature as others, Andreas I know that these cannot be updated. But what is available on the web. It is just my wording that I call it experimental as long as the btrfs wiki states
"Note that Btrfs does not yet have a fsck tool that can fix errors. While Btrfs is stable on a stable machine, it is currently possible to corrupt a filesystem irrecoverably if your machine crashes or loses power on disks that don't handle flush requests correctly. This will be fixed when the fsck tool is ready." I used it myself during the RC's for one week under real life conditions on my notebook to check its performance and features (very pleasing experience) at the end of my tests I tried to destroy it by removing the battery and then repeatedly unplug the power supply, the third time I did that I was able to bring it into a state were it could no longer recover. So let's not discuss too much about if experimental is the right word, it is just my personal point of view nothing else. I just want to avoid that we have a flood of inexperienced users on the forum breaking their home machines and seek for solutions, there are more than enough were the problem is not the file system. I hope you understand that and I am well aware that too many users do not read any documentation, do not read release notes and also do not make backups and this kind of users we can anyway not help much. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, November 29, 2011 13:10:54 Martin Helm wrote:
Am 29.11.2011 12:57, schrieb Andreas Jaeger:
Martin, the release notes are available during installation as well - and those cannot be updated. Btw. I don't consider the filesystem as experimental any more - but yes, it's not as mature as others, Andreas I know that these cannot be updated. But what is available on the web. It is just my wording that I call it experimental as long as the btrfs wiki states
"Note that Btrfs does not yet have a fsck tool that can fix errors. While Btrfs is stable on a stable machine, it is currently possible to corrupt a filesystem irrecoverably if your machine crashes or loses power on disks that don't handle flush requests correctly. This will be fixed when the fsck tool is ready."
I used it myself during the RC's for one week under real life conditions on my notebook to check its performance and features (very pleasing experience) at the end of my tests I tried to destroy it by removing the battery and then repeatedly unplug the power supply, the third time I did that I was able to bring it into a state were it could no longer recover.
So let's not discuss too much about if experimental is the right word, it is just my personal point of view nothing else. I just want to avoid that we have a flood of inexperienced users on the forum breaking their home machines and seek for solutions, there are more than enough were the problem is not the file system. I hope you understand that and I am well aware that too many users do not read any documentation, do not read release notes and also do not make backups and this kind of users we can anyway not help much.
Yes, I fully understand this, just the "experimental" is a word I wouldn't have choosen. Let me try to come up with another version in bugzilla, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 13:10, Martin Helm <martin@mhelm.de> wrote:
"Note that Btrfs does not yet have a fsck tool that can fix errors. While Btrfs is stable on a stable machine, it is currently possible to corrupt a filesystem irrecoverably if your machine crashes or loses power on disks that don't handle flush requests correctly. This will be fixed when the fsck tool is ready."
Can the "disks that don't handle flush requests correctly" be clarified a bit? Does this apply to most disks? A small subset of disks? Just how high is the risk here? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 13:19, C <smaug42@opensuse.org> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 13:10, Martin Helm <martin@mhelm.de> wrote:
"Note that Btrfs does not yet have a fsck tool that can fix errors. While Btrfs is stable on a stable machine, it is currently possible to corrupt a filesystem irrecoverably if your machine crashes or loses power on disks that don't handle flush requests correctly. This will be fixed when the fsck tool is ready."
Can the "disks that don't handle flush requests correctly" be clarified a bit? Does this apply to most disks? A small subset of disks? Just how high is the risk here?
Just replying to myself here with a bit more information on this... when you look here: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/articles/f/a/q/FAQ_1fe9.html#Is_btrfs_stable.3... There is an interesting and possibly helpful comment on possible BTRFS corruption : "the vast majority of the problems with broken and unmountable filesystems I've seen on IRC and the mailing list have been caused by power outages in the middle of a write to the FS, and have been fixable by use of the btrfs-zero-log tool." Would it be useful to digest this into something in the Release Notes as well? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (3)
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Andreas Jaeger -
C -
Martin Helm