On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:

All a part of the learning process. Imagine, you can actually even be an active participant, and can effect changes.

I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant. How do I get to the man pages again? -- Dwain Alford P.O. Box 145 Winfield, Alabama 35594 telephone: 205.487.2570 cellphone: 205.495.5619 "The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"

On Sunday 08 April 2007 23:45, M Harris wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 00:26, dwain wrote:

...

How do I get to the man pages again?

Actually, they are mostly obsolete...

... you want to load and use info these days....

But if you insist, you can run

man man

You want to know how to use vi... type

man vi

(or) info vi

I think I'll try info vi since the man pages are "mostly obsolete". I appreciate your time and effort. I hope to one day repay the community by becoming a productive participant. Regards, Dwain -- Dwain Alford P.O. Box 145 Winfield, Alabama 35594 telephone: 205.487.2570 cellphone: 205.495.5619 "The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"

On Monday 09 April 2007 01:54, dwain wrote:

On Sunday 08 April 2007 23:45, M Harris wrote:

...

On Monday 09 April 2007 00:26, dwain wrote:

...

How do I get to the man pages again?

Actually, they are mostly obsolete...

... you want to load and use info these days....

But if you insist, you can run

man man

You want to know how to use vi... type

man vi

(or) info vi

I think I'll try info vi since the man pages are "mostly obsolete". I appreciate your time and effort. I hope to one day repay the community by becoming a productive participant.

Regards, Dwain

If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe. There's a whole text-book on VI, and this is not a user-friendly thing, and neither is EMACS, altho the old Unix hands will tell you it's the only way. It's not. If you never expect to use a real Unix system, fageddaboudit! (I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for yourself, you'll find that I'm right.) --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

Well... I'm just incensed here... :-P

... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* learn is vi, period, end of story. So, just pull out the info or man pages and get cracking... you *will* need it before you grow up so just bite the bullet and learn it... ok?... ok.

Heh heh. With all seriousness, sometimes when you're setting up a new system, or recovering from some sort of disaster, vi is all you've got. So it's worthwhile to at least learn the basics. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 09 April 2007 17:39, M Harris wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 17:07, David Brodbeck wrote:

...

With all seriousness, sometimes when you're setting up a new system, or recovering from some sort of disaster, vi is all you've got.  So it's worthwhile to at least learn the basics.

Yes ...

No Besides Vi there is also joe. (since about 10.0 I think) Bob S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

universal enough for the unix playing field. VI is everywhere...

yes and no. of course, you are right, but in fact VI don't even exists... There are no such thing as "Original VI" on Linux, most used VI is _vim_, but Gentoo starts with a much more simple one. even busybox have it's one (that mimics emacs, joe...) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed April 11 2007 6:32 am, Damon Register scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

M Harris wrote:

...

telling me about ( joe ) ... I am always willing to learn new stuff... and this little joe editor might do the trick for some of my ( shall I say )

Joe is my favorite if for no other reason than I can get the help on the top of the screen. <pruned a bit of stuff >

it must have been you about whom this was written. http://www.nedit.org/features.php?PHPSESSID=5584b573f8054dcccdc6f4e69 4cf0ac2 "People already exposed to modern GUIs when introduced to UNIX used to be (and still are) told to use vi or EMACS.

I'm not sure what the problem w/ EMACS is... It will function as a plain text editor, and was available on most OSes. However, If you are looking for a "notepad" substitute, try Kedit , I haven't tried the other variations ( Joe, Nedit etc. )They are all attempts at recreating a *familiar* look'n'feel in various ways.. There are a lots of editors, from plain to insane ,available. Please,feel free to sample them all.. no cost unless you don't have the boxed set or a fat pipe .. downloading some of them could take a while if you are just using a modem. Nothing is small and simple any more. 'Relax, is linux.' What you dislike , you probably can change ; if not there is bound to be at least one program that could be customized to operate as you wish it to do. At the risk of sounding pollyanna-ish, no one will sue you for tossing out whatever program you dislike. Just wander thru places like packman, kde-apps.org , kde-files.org and countless others and see what you can find. ' relax is Linux ' , better even, is opensuse linux , jump in the water is fine. ;) -- j -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Summerfield wrote:

On Wednesday 11 April 2007 18:32, Damon Register wrote:

...

Ok, when Xwindows is not running, nedit might not be of any value (although I thought I remember there being a curses version) but then there is joe which is a lot nicer IMHO than vi.

If there is any possibiltiy that you will be called on to maintain any *x system at all, you can bet a lot of them do not have nedit, joe, pico, jed, emacs or many of the others.

I think to a certain degree you're arguing cross purposes. It depends on what your goals are in using Linux. Not every Linux user is using Linux because they want to learn system administration. - Does a home user who mostly regards their Linux system as an appliance need to learn vi? No, absolutely not. - Does someone who aspires to work as a system administrator, either in an amateur or professional capacity, need to learn vi? I'd say yes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

OK, someone had to join on from the backwoods. If the system is in a bad way the /bib/ed is the only editor to use. If the system is running then emacs, suitable customised for my keystrokes And while we are at it, no KDE and no Gnome..... ==John ffitch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 16:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe. There's a whole text-book on VI, and this is not a user-friendly thing, and neither is EMACS, altho the old Unix hands will tell you it's the only way. It's not. If you never expect to use a real Unix system, fageddaboudit!

(I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for yourself, you'll find that I'm right.)

--doug

Well... I'm just incensed here... :-P

... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* learn is vi, period, end of story. So, just pull out the info or man pages and get cracking... you *will* need it before you grow up so just bite the bullet and learn it... ok?... ok.

Second, emacs sux.

Third, well... go back to my first point.

Actually the first thing I do is try to get pico working. Nice little very basic editor, and I would agree with Doug and go a litlle further and say IMHO vi is interesting for those with a masochistic disposition:-) I was gobsmacked when heard some lunatic had ported it to M$ You need enough vi to make use of sed and that's about it.... I would agree that some vi knowledge is required if only to remind you there has got to be something better. For cutting code emacs is a formidable tool, but it is not easy to learn to use. However it is worth learning at least the basics. The main problem with emacs is the range of functionality (e-Mail client, computer language parser, Word processor, CVS manager, script interpretor ). A secondary issue is the emacs buffer model does take a liitle getting used to. About the only thing you cannot do with it is make the toast.... :-) As old DEC hand I say bring back SOS ;-)

G.T.Smith wrote:

Actually the first thing I do is try to get pico working. Nice little very basic editor, and I would agree with Doug and go a litlle further and say IMHO vi is interesting for those with a masochistic disposition:-)

I don't like pico because there's no way to jump to the beginning or end of the file. This may have been OK for editing email, which was its original purpose, but it's frustrating when you're working with configuration files. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

...

I don't like pico because there's no way to jump to the beginning or end of the file. This may have been OK for editing email, which was its original purpose, but it's frustrating when you're working with configuration files.

Odd, I've found page up / page down fast enough for my use.

It works, it's just less than ideal if you're working with a file that's hundreds of lines long. Especially if you happen to be on a low-bandwidth connection, where waiting for the screen to redraw takes a noticeable amount of time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-04-09 at 16:03 -0500, M Harris wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 16:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe.  

Agreed. :-)

...

(I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for yourself, you'll find that I'm right.)

Well... I'm just incensed here... :-P

... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* learn is vi, period, end of story.

But this is not unix, but linux. And not "plain" linux, but openSuSE linux :-p so we do have joe besides vi right from the start, even from the rescue CD - so that purists can grumble in their marble towers :-P It doesn't hurt to know a bit of vi - specially the keystrokes needed to exit as fast as from a running fire! :-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGG6WNtTMYHG2NR9URAjf+AJ0Ts94ZBCJjMXs+DUnICuEfyh9VOACffUfQ Mjypr3NO09FJb1K7UYJN1ME= =bLtV -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Mon 09 Apr 2007 21:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:

If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe

- joe works fine for me . . . commands are similar to old word-processor -"Star-Writer" [if I recall] best wishes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* David Brodbeck [04-09-07 18:06]: [...]

The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a lot of clones that used the same commands.

which, iirc, originated on cp/m. After learning Wordstar keystrokes and then dos with qedit from semware, later renamed, it's difficult to adapt to another editor :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett wrote:

You're right, Pat. WordStar debuted on cpm, and it was a while to get to know the key-strokes to move around and modify things,

nope: it was written on the top of the screen :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Doug McGarrett [04-10-07 20:18]: [...]

Yes, it was, but when I had learned it, I turned off that helper so as to have a fuller page to write on. I wish the modern graphic editors had the ^b function to reformat the text, so as to make the text fit the page, with margins and line feeds fixed, etc. Most seem not to have that available.

jed/xjed will, but you have to roll your own, no rpm's for suse. http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/ I use it as my editor for email in mutt. Auto reformat quoted text, .... -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-04-09 at 20:15 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

[...]

...

The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a lot of clones that used the same commands.

which, iirc, originated on cp/m. After learning Wordstar keystrokes and then dos with qedit from semware, later renamed, it's difficult to adapt to another editor :^)

Right. WordStar was designed for touch typists, that's why its "human-api" has been so successful. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGG6PetTMYHG2NR9URAg7pAJ9CK94FrD6yDpAFZfVZUdHkq3BImgCeOen9 F3vw4jMK1RjqToART80p8nc= =ehA8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, dwain wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:

...

All a part of the learning process. Imagine, you can actually even be an active participant, and can effect changes.

I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant.

How do I get to the man pages again?

You can use konqueror to look at the man pages. It has the advantage of being able to click links within the man pages. Use the URL #<application> e.g. #lp will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp -- Regards, Graham Smith -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:

Graham Smith wrote:

...

Use the URL #<application> e.g. #lp will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp

I thought it was man:/<entry> That's what Ive done to get a manpage in Konq... Could be wrong though.

You can use either #<entry> or man:/<entry> Just that the latter takes more key strokes. BTW, you can also use info:/<app> to look at the info pages -- Regards, Graham Smith -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 09 April 2007 04:15, Martin J Hooper wrote:

Graham Smith wrote:

...

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:

...

Graham Smith wrote:

...

Use the URL #<application> e.g. #lp will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp

I thought it was man:/<entry> That's what Ive done to get a manpage in Konq... Could be wrong though.

You can use either #<entry> or man:/<entry> Just that the latter takes more key strokes.

BTW, you can also use info:/<app> to look at the info pages

Ah So you can ;) Thanks for the info...

Is this done at the command line in the console or at the Run prompt? -- Dwain Alford P.O. Box 145 Winfield, Alabama 35594 telephone: 205.487.2570 cellphone: 205.495.5619 "The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"

On Monday 09 April 2007 05:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2007-04-09 at 05:10 -0500, dwain wrote:

...

...

...

BTW, you can also use info:/<app> to look at the info pages

Ah So you can ;) Thanks for the info...

Is this done at the command line in the console or at the Run prompt?

It is an URL for the konqueror browser.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

I found that by typing it at the Run Command it opened it in Konqueror Now, how do I set Kmail to bottom post? :^) Cheers, Dwain -- Dwain Alford P.O. Box 145 Winfield, Alabama 35594 telephone: 205.487.2570 cellphone: 205.495.5619 "The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression." Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"

Graham Smith wrote:

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:

...

Graham Smith wrote:

...

Use the URL #<application> e.g. #lp will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp

I thought it was man:/<entry> That's what Ive done to get a manpage in Konq... Could be wrong though.

You can use either #<entry> or man:/<entry> Just that the latter takes more key strokes.

BTW, you can also use info:/<app> to look at the info pages

For info, you can use ## -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 09 April 2007 08:26:27 am dwain wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:

...

All a part of the learning process. Imagine, you can actually even be an active participant, and can effect changes.

I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant.

How do I get to the man pages again?

I would recommend using the KDE Help Center. It's the starting point for all documentation, man, info, guides, what-have-you. All that in a nice, readable graphical display. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2007-04-09 16:09, Doug McGarrett wrote:

On Sunday 08 April 2007 22:44, dwain wrote:

...

How long is a distribution (i.e. 10.2) supported with patches and updates before I need to upgrade to the newest distribution? Is it prudent to upgrade when the new distribution is released from a RC? Does opensuse go from beta to release candidate to new version (or whatever it's called)?

I think I'm making the migration from Windows to Linux quite gracefully, but there are still a few nagging questions as I make the transition.

Dwain

Someone here said it was about 2 years, but specifically, I believe, it is one complete major number is released for sale or download, as a "gold" release. I.e., my 9.3 will no longer be supported when 10.3 is released, in July, I think. (Boo-hoo!)

<snip>

As already announced, 9.3 support ends on (IIRC) Apr 13, just a few days from now -- after that, there will be no more security updates for it, and the installation repository will be moved from the main tree to "discontinued". The latest word on the release of the 10.3 GM is somewhere around October this year. -- Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- HG Wells -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org