[opensuse] Re: Large disks in Opensuse 11
Per Inge Oestmoen a écrit :
But that is precisely what is impossible.
I go into the partitioner of YaST, and the disk is recognized. I choose to make one large partion, and to format with FAT since the disk is to be accessed by a number of different operating systems apart from my own Linux machines.
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition. You have to use NTFS or any Linux (ext3 is good - with some limits, it can be read by e2ifs windows driver - read the http://www.fs-driver.org/ Web site jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Per Inge Oestmoen a écrit :
But that is precisely what is impossible.
I go into the partitioner of YaST, and the disk is recognized. I choose to make one large partion, and to format with FAT since the disk is to be accessed by a number of different operating systems apart from my own Linux machines.
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition. You have to use NTFS or any Linux (ext3 is good - with some limits, it can be read by e2ifs windows driver - read the http://www.fs-driver.org/ Web site
So that is the reason why I could not format the disk? I have 500 Gb FAT partitions on other disks. What is the limitation? One cannot assume that others will have Windows drivers for Linux systems installed. I need to be able to let others read my disk, were it only to be used by me I would format the whole thing with reiserFS. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/05/07 10:53 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table it can be up to 2T, but I hardly think that a good plan
You have to use NTFS or any Linux (ext3 is good - with some limits, it can be read by e2ifs windows driver - read the http://www.fs-driver.org/ Web site
So that is the reason why I could not format the disk?
Maybe it's your choice of tool. Have you tried any other than YaST2? Since you want FAT, have you considered the eminently logical choice of using Vista to do it?
I have 500 Gb FAT partitions on other disks. What is the limitation?
One cannot assume that others will have Windows drivers for Linux systems installed. I need to be able to let others read my disk, were it only to be used by me I would format the whole thing with reiserFS.
FUSE and NTFS-3G are now providing full access to NTFS partitions. NTFS is far more efficient than FAT, and does not have the 4G file size limitation that prevents large media files, such as DVD isos, from being saved on them. Do the "others" need to use it directly? Can't you just mount on Linux and share it over the network? -- "A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control." Proverbs 29:11 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Felix Miata a écrit :
On 2009/05/07 10:53 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table it can be up to 2T, but I hardly think that a good plan
yes, several windows versions don't allow as much (at least that's that google say) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:15 AM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Felix Miata a écrit :
On 2009/05/07 10:53 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table it can be up to 2T, but I hardly think that a good plan
yes, several windows versions don't allow as much (at least that's that google say)
Jdd, Pretty sure that is just a formatting problem. If you format a 1 TB fat partition in Linux, I'm almost positive Windows will work with it. Pretty sure I've done that as a matter of fact. FYI: We work with large files typically, so even a 1 TB drive would only have 10,000 or so files on it. We now use ntfs by default, but I don't remember why. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2009/05/07 10:53 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table it can be up to 2T, but I hardly think that a good plan
I think you may have a point there.
So that is the reason why I could not format the disk? Maybe it's your choice of tool. Have you tried any other than YaST2? Since you want FAT, have you considered the eminently logical choice of using Vista to do it?
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk. The trouble with Vista is that I have no access to any Vista machine. I brought the disk to the computer shop, where the shop assistant accessed it with Vista, but I refused to let him format the disk - because Vista cannot format with FAT according to that man. Now it seems that I have to choose another file system, and even though I generally use Reiser on Linux Ext3 may be better if it is easier to access it from several operating systems.
I have 500 Gb FAT partitions on other disks. What is the limitation? One cannot assume that others will have Windows drivers for Linux systems installed. I need to be able to let others read my disk, were it only to be used by me I would format the whole thing with reiserFS.
FUSE and NTFS-3G are now providing full access to NTFS partitions. NTFS is far more efficient than FAT, and does not have the 4G file size limitation that prevents large media files, such as DVD isos, from being saved on them.
I know, but does not NTFS have fragmentation problems making it less desirable? There is no way to defragment a NTFS drive in Linux that I know of.
Do the "others" need to use it directly? Can't you just mount on Linux and share it over the network?
It is less convenient, but if it is the only possibility so be it. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk.
There is no YaST, only YaST2.
FUSE and NTFS-3G are now providing full access to NTFS partitions. NTFS is far more efficient than FAT, and does not have the 4G file size limitation that prevents large media files, such as DVD isos, from being saved on them.
I know, but does not NTFS have fragmentation problems making it less desirable? There is no way to defragment a NTFS drive in Linux that I know of.
Is that really a concern? You're talking about a filesystem on a USB drive, not a high performance filesystem. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/05/07 12:20 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2009/05/07 10:53 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table it can be up to 2T, but I hardly think that a good plan
I think you may have a point there.
So that is the reason why I could not format the disk?
Maybe it's your choice of tool. Have you tried any other than YaST2? Since you want FAT, have you considered the eminently logical choice of using Vista to do it?
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk. The trouble with Vista is that I have no access to any Vista machine. I brought the disk to the computer shop, where the shop assistant accessed it with Vista, but I refused to let him format the disk - because Vista cannot format with FAT according to that man.
I think he's wrong. Vista can format exFAT, so I'd be really surprised if it cannot also do legacy FAT.
Now it seems that I have to choose another file system, and even though I generally use Reiser on Linux Ext3 may be better if it is easier to access it from several operating systems.
FUSE and NTFS-3G are now providing full access to NTFS partitions. NTFS is far more efficient than FAT, and does not have the 4G file size limitation that prevents large media files, such as DVD isos, from being saved on them.
I know, but does not NTFS have fragmentation problems making it less desirable? There is no way to defragment a NTFS drive in Linux that I know of.
Well, your planned FAT filesystem is the traditional requiree of frequent defragging. In contrast, fragmentation is a minimal problem on NTFS, particularly if filling considerably less than 100% of the partition(s) with files, which is pretty common among users of triple-digit-G-sized partitions. For what you seem to plan to use it for, I doubt fragmentation is worth considering to be of significance in choosing a filesystem.
Do the "others" need to use it directly? Can't you just mount on Linux and share it over the network?
It is less convenient, but if it is the only possibility so be it.
It's not the only possibility, unless the USB device is simply one that has broken support, or simply is broken, in which case I would not trust it in any event. -- "A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control." Proverbs 29:11 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Felix Miata <mrmazda@ij.net> wrote:
On 2009/05/07 12:20 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2009/05/07 10:53 (GMT+0200) Per Inge Oestmoen composed:
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table it can be up to 2T, but I hardly think that a good plan
I think you may have a point there.
So that is the reason why I could not format the disk?
Maybe it's your choice of tool. Have you tried any other than YaST2? Since you want FAT, have you considered the eminently logical choice of using Vista to do it?
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk. The trouble with Vista is that I have no access to any Vista machine. I brought the disk to the computer shop, where the shop assistant accessed it with Vista, but I refused to let him format the disk - because Vista cannot format with FAT according to that man.
I think he's wrong. Vista can format exFAT, so I'd be really surprised if it cannot also do legacy FAT.
Felix, Big Brother Bill does not think you are smart enough to know when to use FAT. So the MS disk partitioner will not allow the user to format partitions above a certain size as FAT (64GB?). You can use 3rd party tools or Linux to do so. Once formated, XP / Vista / etc. will work with it. Obviously the fundamental 2 TB limit applies to all situations. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday May 7 2009, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
...
I know, but does not NTFS have fragmentation problems making it less desirable? There is no way to defragment a NTFS drive in Linux that I know of.
_Nothing_ is less desirable than FAT. Every Windows system you will encounter can deal with NTFS. Current Linux systems (from good distros) can deal with NTFS.
...
Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Thursday May 7 2009, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
...
I know, but does not NTFS have fragmentation problems making it less desirable? There is no way to defragment a NTFS drive in Linux that I know of.
_Nothing_ is less desirable than FAT.
Every Windows system you will encounter can deal with NTFS.
Current Linux systems (from good distros) can deal with NTFS.
Certainly, but I need Linux to read AND write to my external disks. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
In <4A02EC69.50206@coldsiberia.org>, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Thursday May 7 2009, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I know, but does not NTFS have fragmentation problems making it less desirable? There is no way to defragment a NTFS drive in Linux that I know of. Current Linux systems (from good distros) can deal with NTFS. Certainly, but I need Linux to read AND write to my external disks.
NTFS-3g writes. Heck, the in-kernel driver might write by now. :P -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Per Inge Oestmoen <pioe@coldsiberia.org> wrote:
Certainly, but I need Linux to read AND write to my external disks.
Can you attach it to the computers internal SATA ports? I just wonder if there is an issue, and if you connect it to the onboard, you may be able to format and then put it back into the external enclosure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Larry Stotler wrote:
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Per Inge Oestmoen <pioe@coldsiberia.org> wrote:
Certainly, but I need Linux to read AND write to my external disks.
Can you attach it to the computers internal SATA ports? I just wonder if there is an issue, and if you connect it to the onboard, you may be able to format and then put it back into the external enclosure.
Yes, that is what I am going to try now very soon. I have to remove one of my internal disks, but I build my computers and change disks all the time, som that is almost routine here. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/05/07 06:50 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz composed:
_Nothing_ is less desirable than FAT.
Yes, I much prefer fat-free wimmenz and low-fat foods also. Shedding FAT is hard to do too. ;-)
Every Windows system you will encounter can deal with NTFS.
Dunno. Still people around choking on Win9X, which requires a whole lot less RAM and CPU power than most user-friendly X desktops. :-p
Current Linux systems (from good distros) can deal with NTFS.
Oh, you're talking about filesystems again? :-) FAT has its roots in the '70's, originally for floppy disks, before the first *5* _mega-byte_ ST-506 storage disks for personal computers had their genesis. FAT and the PC BIOS are relics retarding the advance of technology. Divorcing yourself from dependence on them is the smart plan, at least with TB-sized storage media. -- "A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control." Proverbs 29:11 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2009/05/07 06:50 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz composed:
Current Linux systems (from good distros) can deal with NTFS.
Oh, you're talking about filesystems again? :-)
FAT has its roots in the '70's, originally for floppy disks, before the first *5* _mega-byte_ ST-506 storage disks for personal computers had their genesis. FAT and the PC BIOS are relics retarding the advance of technology. Divorcing yourself from dependence on them is the smart plan, at least with TB-sized storage media.
I do not dispute that. However, as we have seen this disk absolutely refuses to be partitioned so far - and so I have not been able to perform any formatting in any file system at all. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-05-07 at 12:20 +0200, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk.
It is the same program: nimrodel:~ # which YaST /sbin/YaST nimrodel:~ # l /sbin/YaST lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 5 Sep 10 2008 /sbin/YaST -> yast2* However, yast2 knows that if you call it as yast from a terminal it is because you want ncurses mode instead of graphical.
Now it seems that I have to choose another file system, and even though I generally use Reiser on Linux Ext3 may be better if it is easier to access it from several operating systems.
I have huge problems with reiserfs over USB on openSUSE 11.0 specifically. 11.0 or 10.3 are fine. You could also try two 500 GB FAT partitions instead. However, I don't think that is the problem, fdisk should not care about the partition size: it would be mkfs who would complain later. You can try formatting as ext3 temporarily to determine if FAT is the problem here.
FUSE and NTFS-3G are now providing full access to NTFS partitions. NTFS is far more efficient than FAT, and does not have the 4G file size limitation that prevents large media files, such as DVD isos, from being saved on them.
I found that setup very CPU intensive, when I tried it. At least, much more intensive than any other partition type I have tried. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoDPCoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XJTACbByUpATaorDMjp5mTOxIi7Da3 5AgAn11Vb8PDVouuWyro9fz0T14zDHN6 =upfH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday May 7 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Thursday, 2009-05-07 at 12:20 +0200, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk.
It is the same program:
...
However, yast2 knows that if you call it as yast from a terminal it is because you want ncurses mode instead of graphical.
To be clear, YaST2 looks for the DISPLAY environment variable. If it's set, it uses the GUI mode (on the X11 display indicated by DISPLAY). If you're running a terminal emulator (Konsole, say) and go there an run YaST2: % YaST2 ... you'll get the GUI version (limited functionality if you're not root). If you suppress the DISPLAY variable: % DISPLAY= YaST2 ... you'll get the character-mode interface. If DISPLAY is not acceptable, you get a diagnostic: % DISPLAY=:1 YaST2 y2controlcenter: cannot connect to X server :1
...
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Thursday May 7 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Thursday, 2009-05-07 at 12:20 +0200, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk.
It is the same program:
...
However, yast2 knows that if you call it as yast from a terminal it is because you want ncurses mode instead of graphical.
To be clear, YaST2 looks for the DISPLAY environment variable. If it's set, it uses the GUI mode (on the X11 display indicated by DISPLAY).
I was about to say the very same thing, but it's not correct. If you run 'yast', you get the ncurses interface, if you run YaST2 you get the GUI (assuming DISPLAY is set). I've just tried it on an 11.1 system. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
I was about to say the very same thing, but it's not correct. If you run 'yast', you get the ncurses interface, if you run YaST2 you get the GUI (assuming DISPLAY is set). I've just tried it on an 11.1 system.
In this case, there was a major practical difference: Whereas the YaST2 function could never detect my drive, yast did. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
I was about to say the very same thing, but it's not correct. If you run 'yast', you get the ncurses interface, if you run YaST2 you get the GUI (assuming DISPLAY is set). I've just tried it on an 11.1 system.
In this case, there was a major practical difference: Whereas the YaST2 function could never detect my drive, yast did.
Well, that's not possible coz' yast and yast2 really is the same code (look it up, yast is just a symlink). It's more likely that something changed in between you calling yast and then YaST2. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday May 8 2009, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
I was about to say the very same thing, but it's not correct. If you run 'yast', you get the ncurses interface, if you run YaST2 you get the GUI (assuming DISPLAY is set). I've just tried it on an 11.1 system.
In this case, there was a major practical difference: Whereas the YaST2 function could never detect my drive, yast did.
Most likely this is a symptom of the underlying issue that has been the overarching subject of this now rather large thread (*), not any difference between the yast / YaST / YaST2 parititioner module, of which there is only one. (Actually, YaST2 had a predecessor, but it's no longer included and the synonyms are just for backward compatibility, if I understand correctly.) (*) This may be one of the longest threads ever seen on this list that is mostly on-topic and hasn't degenerated (much) into unseemly or tangential exchanges.
Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
(*) This may be one of the longest threads ever seen on this list that is mostly on-topic and hasn't degenerated (much) into unseemly or tangential exchanges.
Well said. I agree, and while I prepare to get away some work so that I can take out this hard drive in order to install that troubled disk to isolate the error, I wish to thank you all for your great and helpful contributions. I have never thought the world to be a heartless place, and this experience has reinforced my belief that goodness always is present and therefore prevails all the time. Greetings, Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday May 8 2009, Per Jessen wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Thursday May 7 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Thursday, 2009-05-07 at 12:20 +0200, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I have tried YaST, not YaST2, because the latter could not even see the disk.
It is the same program:
...
However, yast2 knows that if you call it as yast from a terminal it is because you want ncurses mode instead of graphical.
To be clear, YaST2 looks for the DISPLAY environment variable. If it's set, it uses the GUI mode (on the X11 display indicated by DISPLAY).
I was about to say the very same thing, but it's not correct. If you run 'yast', you get the ncurses interface, if you run YaST2 you get the GUI (assuming DISPLAY is set). I've just tried it on an 11.1 system.
What I wrote is true, and I tested all the invocations I gave. I've never used "yast" only "YaST2".
/Per
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
you certainly can't have a 1Tb fat partition. You have to use NTFS or any Linux (ext3 is good - with some limits, it can be read by e2ifs windows driver - read the http://www.fs-driver.org/ Web site
I've configured many 750-GB disks with FAT-32 (customer requirement) and if memory serves a few 1-TB ones too. The trick is to use mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/xxx. The command defaults to FAT-16, so you need to specify what you want. Maybe the partitioner can't create FAT-32? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
jdd -
Larry Stotler -
Lew Wolfgang -
Per Inge Oestmoen -
Per Jessen -
Randall R Schulz