[opensuse] KDE3 Enthusiasts - neat opportunity for opensuse and others
Guys, For those that don't know there have been several groups that have looked at the logistics of centralizing, for lack of better words, a location for handling changes to libraries, build tools, etc. that effect kde3 in order to allow kde3 to be maintained in a sane manner and prevent the wheel from being reinvented 1000 times over distro-by-distro. Of course implementation will always be distro specific, but the goal is to coordinate/handle the changes that impact the desktop at what was the kde.org level with the combined input and resources from all those who have an interest in seeing the desktop continue so it is done in an efficient way. Aside from the great work the guys here at openSuSE have done, another of the more notable efforts has been the Trinity project headed by Timothy Pearson (pearsoncomputing.net). The chakra project has been another player as well. I have been in contact with Pearson and the people at Chakra over the past few days. What I expect to take place in the next day or two is the expansion of a mailing list where we want to gather as much talent as possible to help contribute to solving the challenges that are bound to arise in the future as well as solving some of the current limitation with kde3 dcop/dbus, etc.. Much of this has been kicked around for some time, but in the past 36 hours, through coincidence or reason unexplained, there have been a number of kde3 folks brought into this discussion so let's make hay while the sun shine for the benefit of openSuSE and the rest of the OSS community. If you are interested, what you need to do is drop by http://chakra-project.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?pid=20476#p20476 (that is just where the current active thread is - the rest is just a flurry of emails, etc..) Details concerning the mailing list, if not posted there yet, should be posted there within the next 24 hours. What I would like to see happen is those with interest join the mailing list, especially you prior kde3 devs. (I know you are up to your eyelids in KDE4 right now, but if you only write one sentence that saves the rest of us a months worth of wastes effort you have done more than you could ever imagine -- Will, Sven...) Lord knows it will be a low-volume list requiring little input. The goal is to help those spearheading this project manage what whatever the pressing needs may be to make sure when a Linux user sits down to install a desktop on a Linux box they have the choice to install IceWM, blackbox, fluxbox, e-16, enlightenment, openbox, kde3, kde4, WindowMaker, xfce, twm, etc.. If you are one of those that believe that Linux users ought to be able to have a choice to install kde3 in the future, then we need you on the mailing list. See you there. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:46 PM, David C. Rankin
If you are one of those that believe that Linux users ought to be able to have a choice to install kde3 in the future, then we need you on the mailing list. See you there.
Wow. Even in this day of instant communications, I wonder how many missed out on this type of thing. Questions: 1. Is this going to become a fully collaborative effort? 2. How much work is it going to take to finish stripping the KDE4 stuff out of KDE3? Is the build service going to be able to make the two versions work together(if not, then I for one an OK with that). 3. What needs to be done on this end for testing? 4. Is this going to include most of the KDE apps, like KOffice and stuff that are based on qt3? Thanks for finding this out David. Hopefully, those of us who prefer KDE3 can now finally band together to keep it going. Lean and mean is what I prefer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 August 2010 19:53:35 Larry Stotler wrote:
2. How much work is it going to take to finish stripping the KDE4 stuff out of KDE3? Is the build service going to be able to make the two versions work together(if not, then I for one an OK with that).
This is already done. The two versions work well together and there is no KDE4 stuff in KDE3.
3. What needs to be done on this end for testing?
4. Is this going to include most of the KDE apps, like KOffice and stuff that are based on qt3?
KDE:KDE3 repository already includes KOffice and much of Qt3 stuff.
Thanks for finding this out David. Hopefully, those of us who prefer KDE3 can now finally band together to keep it going. Lean and mean is what I prefer.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote: <snip>
4. Is this going to include most of the KDE apps, like KOffice and stuff that are based on qt3?
Larry, I'm not a KDE3 user, but I understand the oS 11.3 KDE3 repo has grown significantly even since the 11.3 release. The wiki page (http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3) shows this as the 32-bit repo for 11.3: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.3/i586/ There appear to be a couple hundred packages in there. (Hard to tell since many packages create multiple rpms.) I see a lot of koffice in there, possibly all. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 August 2010 20:20:05 Greg Freemyer wrote:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.3/i586/
There appear to be a couple hundred packages in there. (Hard to tell since many packages create multiple rpms.)
I see a lot of koffice in there, possibly all.
Status: https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=KDE%3AKDE3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Ilya Chernykh <neptunia@mail.ru> wrote:
On Thursday 19 August 2010 20:20:05 Greg Freemyer wrote:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.3/i586/
There appear to be a couple hundred packages in there. (Hard to tell since many packages create multiple rpms.)
I see a lot of koffice in there, possibly all.
Status: https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=KDE%3AKDE3
Great link. Maybe it should be added to http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3 The opensuse KDE3 support team is making great progress it appears. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 August 2010 20:30:25 Greg Freemyer wrote:
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.3/i586/
There appear to be a couple hundred packages in there. (Hard to tell since many packages create multiple rpms.)
I see a lot of koffice in there, possibly all.
Status: https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=KDE%3AKDE3
Great link. Maybe it should be added to http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3
The opensuse KDE3 support team is making great progress it appears.
Yes. Currently the status of KDE3 for 11.3 is just the same as for 11.1. No reason to keep with 11.1 for that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Larry Stotler wrote:
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:46 PM, David C. Rankin
If you are one of those that believe that Linux users ought to be able to have a choice to install kde3 in the future, then we need you on the mailing list. See you there.
Wow. Even in this day of instant communications, I wonder how many missed out on this type of thing.
Questions:
1. Is this going to become a fully collaborative effort?
2. How much work is it going to take to finish stripping the KDE4 stuff out of KDE3? Is the build service going to be able to make the two versions work together(if not, then I for one an OK with that).
3. What needs to be done on this end for testing?
4. Is this going to include most of the KDE apps, like KOffice and stuff that are based on qt3?
Thanks for finding this out David. Hopefully, those of us who prefer KDE3 can now finally band together to keep it going. Lean and mean is what I prefer.
Not to stir up the pot or anything but Mepis Linux offers two complete distros, one with KDE4.x and the other with KDE3.5. www.mepis.org I have non-geek friends that use mepis and seem to like it. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 August 2010 20:26:29 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Not to stir up the pot or anything but Mepis Linux offers two complete distros, one with KDE4.x and the other with KDE3.5.
www.mepis.org
I have non-geek friends that use mepis and seem to like it.
aLinux by the way, offers only KDE3 desktop http://alinux.tv/ Of course you would not need it as you can use OpenSUSE with KDE3. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 8/19/2010 9:32 AM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Thursday 19 August 2010 20:26:29 Tony Alfrey wrote:
Not to stir up the pot or anything but Mepis Linux offers two complete distros, one with KDE4.x and the other with KDE3.5.
www.mepis.org
I have non-geek friends that use mepis and seem to like it.
aLinux by the way, offers only KDE3 desktop http://alinux.tv/
Of course you would not need it as you can use OpenSUSE with KDE3.
But doesn't the opensuse version still have Dolphin wearing a Kong File Manager skin? This was where a great deal of kde3 version of Kongqueror's power was stripped away, when comparisons became uncomfortable. Mepis, which I run, is running KDE 3.5.10 which is too late to avoid much of this embedding. -- _____________________________________ At one time I had a Real Sig. Its been downsized. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 August 2010 21:05:12 John Andersen wrote:
But doesn't the opensuse version still have Dolphin wearing a Kong File Manager skin?
This was where a great deal of kde3 version of Kongqueror's power was stripped away, when comparisons became uncomfortable.
You're confusing us with Kubuntu there Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* David C. Rankin (drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com) [20100819 05:46]:
location for handling changes to libraries, build tools, etc. that effect kde3 in order to allow kde3 to be maintained in a sane manner
That may be possible but I personally doubt taht enough knowledgable persons get involved in what is maintaining of older and older code.
specific, but the goal is to coordinate/handle the changes that impact the desktop at what was the kde.org level with the combined input and resources from all those who have an interest in seeing the desktop continue so it is done in an efficient way.
If you are one of those that believe that Linux users ought to be able to have a choice to install kde3 in the future, then we need you on the mailing list. See you there.
Having seen many projects in the approx. 15 years I'm doing Linux and ~ 20 years of doing open source, I seriously doubt that that is really going to take off. But never-the-less I wish you and all folks that engage themselves in that effort all the best. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
El 18/08/10 23:46, David C. Rankin escribió:
Guys,
For those that don't know there have been several groups that have looked at the logistics of centralizing, for lack of better words, a location for handling changes to libraries, build tools, etc. that effect kde3 in order to allow kde3 to be maintained in a sane manner.
The amount of manpower you need to maintain such an old, huge beast is something that you are unlikely to obtain now or in the future. I suggest you let KDE3 swim with the fishes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Cristian Rodríguez
The amount of manpower you need to maintain such an old, huge beast is something that you are unlikely to obtain now or in the future.
I suggest you let KDE3 swim with the fishes.
That's been said of many things. And yet I still support an NT4 SP6 server with several 98SE and 2 XP clients(only needed for the newer printers due to no drivers) at one site and another site which is 98 exclusive. These 2 customers haven't paid anything in software upgrades in over 10 years. I still use MacOS 9 on my Powerbook 3400, and there's someone supporting Mozilla on it with a program called Classilla( classilla.org ). It's still rough, but usable. OS/2 is still around as eCommstation. That's been dead for how long in many people's minds? Thanx for the encouragment. Now please let us fail in our own time............ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 20/08/2010 05:40, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Cristian Rodríguez
The amount of manpower you need to maintain such an old, huge beast is something that you are unlikely to obtain now or in the future.
I suggest you let KDE3 swim with the fishes.
That's been said of many things. And yet I still support an NT4 SP6 server with several 98SE and 2 XP clients(only needed for the newer printers due to no drivers) at one site and another site which is 98 exclusive. These 2 customers haven't paid anything in software upgrades in over 10 years.
I still use MacOS 9 on my Powerbook 3400, and there's someone supporting Mozilla on it with a program called Classilla( classilla.org ). It's still rough, but usable.
OS/2 is still around as eCommstation. That's been dead for how long in many people's minds?
Thanx for the encouragment. Now please let us fail in our own time............
A fair enough request... Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-) BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 10:39 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:
On 20/08/2010 05:40, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Cristian Rodríguez
The amount of manpower you need to maintain such an old, huge beast is something that you are unlikely to obtain now or in the future.
I suggest you let KDE3 swim with the fishes.
That's been said of many things. And yet I still support an NT4 SP6 server with several 98SE and 2 XP clients(only needed for the newer printers due to no drivers) at one site and another site which is 98 exclusive. These 2 customers haven't paid anything in software upgrades in over 10 years.
I still use MacOS 9 on my Powerbook 3400, and there's someone supporting Mozilla on it with a program called Classilla( classilla.org ). It's still rough, but usable.
OS/2 is still around as eCommstation. That's been dead for how long in many people's minds?
Thanx for the encouragment. Now please let us fail in our own time............
A fair enough request...
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it.
I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x. What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it.
I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x.
What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off?
Maybe because they're not customers? (in the paying for a service sense) Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it.
I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x.
What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off?
Maybe because they're not customers? (in the paying for a service sense)
Well, I don't understand that model. I expect to pay for code that someone writes because otherwise I cannot expect someone to stand by the stuff when it doesn't work. I must say I've not bought SuSE since 9.3 (which I still run) because what I have works for what I do (Eagle printed circuit board app and VariCAD), and I run a Mac for many other things, obviously paid for. I understand the issue about making the source code available, but the bottom line is that I want the stuff to work. I really think that all of those that argue both ways about KDE3.5 versus KDE 4.x need to think very hard about how this argument appears to the general public that might have liked to consider linux and the KDE desktop in general as a Windows alternative. Many many times I say that "the Mac is an example of what linux could be". After all, the Mac OS is freeBSD with a desktop environment on top (a simplistic description). There is none of this angst between Mac OS 10.4 and Mac OS 10.6, for example. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 08/19/2010 09:58 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it.
I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x.
What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off?
Maybe because they're not customers? (in the paying for a service sense)
Well, I don't understand that model. I expect to pay for code that someone writes because otherwise I cannot expect someone to stand by the stuff when it doesn't work. I must say I've not bought SuSE since 9.3 (which I still run) because what I have works for what I do (Eagle printed circuit board app and VariCAD), and I run a Mac for many other things, obviously paid for. I understand the issue about making the source code available, but the bottom line is that I want the stuff to work. I really think that all of those that argue both ways about KDE3.5 versus KDE 4.x need to think very hard about how this argument appears to the general public that might have liked to consider linux and the KDE desktop in general as a Windows alternative. Many many times I say that "the Mac is an example of what linux could be". After all, the Mac OS is freeBSD with a desktop environment on top (a simplistic description). There is none of this angst between Mac OS 10.4 and Mac OS 10.6, for example.
Maybe no angst, but no choice either. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:58 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it.
I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x.
What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off?
Maybe because they're not customers? (in the paying for a service sense)
Well, I don't understand that model. I expect to pay for code that someone writes because otherwise I cannot expect someone to stand by the stuff when it doesn't work. I must say I've not bought SuSE since 9.3 (which I still run) because what I have works for what I do (Eagle printed circuit board app and VariCAD), and I run a Mac for many other things, obviously paid for. I understand the issue about making the source code available, but the bottom line is that I want the stuff to work. I really think that all of those that argue both ways about KDE3.5 versus KDE 4.x need to think very hard about how this argument appears to the general public that might have liked to consider linux and the KDE desktop in general as a Windows alternative. Many many times I say that "the Mac is an example of what linux could be". After all, the Mac OS is freeBSD with a desktop environment on top (a simplistic description). There is none of this angst between Mac OS 10.4 and Mac OS 10.6, for example.
Maybe no angst, but no choice either.
I agree, there is no "choice". But it depends upon what one's objectives are. My objective is to be able to do "stuff"; write some app, make a website, design a PC board, do some CAD modeling, create some engineering drawings. I agree; my objectives are not to make a device driver, or to get the latest nVidia driver to work, or to struggle with the latest 2.6.x kernel. I have traded "choice" for "getting things done that are important to me". And a critical component of all of that is the old adage: "Time is Money". I'm sorry, but I don't have /any/ time whatsoever to worry about the KDE 3.5 vs. KDE 4.x angst. And it is precisely that angst that says to me "wait until all of this desktop environment silliness subsides before I load up SuSE 11.x, whatever x turns out to be. How much should I pay (in time and angst) for "choice"? Sorry, we've gotten way off topic here; we can let this thread (or my contribution to it) die. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-08-19 at 22:23 -0700, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:58 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alf Maybe no angst, but no choice either. I agree, there is no "choice". But it depends upon what one's objectives are. My objective is to be able to do "stuff";
+1 Same here. I earn a living on the amazing fast stable and productive openSUSE 11.3 w/GNOME! Thanks openSUSE, GNOME, and everyone else. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
I agree, there is no "choice". But it depends upon what one's objectives are. My objective is to be able to do "stuff";
+1 Same here.
I earn a living on the amazing fast stable and productive openSUSE 11.3 w/GNOME!
Thanks openSUSE, GNOME, and everyone else.
I earn mine using openSUSE 11.3 and KDE4 :-) I think the thanks goes more general to the openSUSE team as a whole. Regardless of DE, the overall openSUSE product is pretty darned good. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 12:18 +0200, C wrote:
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
I agree, there is no "choice". But it depends upon what one's objectives are. My objective is to be able to do "stuff"; +1 Same here. I earn a living on the amazing fast stable and productive openSUSE 11.3 w/GNOME! Thanks openSUSE, GNOME, and everyone else. I earn mine using openSUSE 11.3 and KDE4 :-) I think the thanks goes more general to the openSUSE team as a whole. Regardless of DE, the overall openSUSE product is pretty darned good.
Hear, hear! DE users of the world unite! Hey, we all use d-bus and X, can't we all get along. ;) I regularly have beer with KDE users [although they tend to drink that nasty pale-ale stuff, but that is an issue for another list]. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:19, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
I earn a living on the amazing fast stable and productive openSUSE 11.3 w/GNOME! Thanks openSUSE, GNOME, and everyone else. I earn mine using openSUSE 11.3 and KDE4 :-) I think the thanks goes more general to the openSUSE team as a whole. Regardless of DE, the overall openSUSE product is pretty darned good.
Hear, hear! DE users of the world unite!
Hey, we all use d-bus and X, can't we all get along. ;)
I regularly have beer with KDE users [although they tend to drink that nasty pale-ale stuff, but that is an issue for another list].
If you can't stand a spoon up in your beer, then it's not dark and thick enough in my opinion. :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 12:24 +0200, C wrote:
I earn a living on the amazing fast stable and productive openSUSE 11.3 w/GNOME! Thanks openSUSE, GNOME, and everyone else. I earn mine using openSUSE 11.3 and KDE4 :-) I think the thanks goes more general to the openSUSE team as a whole. Regardless of DE, the overall openSUSE product is pretty darned good. Hear, hear! DE users of the world unite! Hey, we all use d-bus and X, can't we all get along. ;) I regularly have beer with KDE users [although they tend to drink that nasty pale-ale stuff, but that is an issue for another list]. If you can't stand a spoon up in your beer, then it's not dark and
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:19, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: thick enough in my opinion. :-)
+1 -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tony Alfrey said the following on 08/20/2010 12:58 AM:
Maybe because they're not customers? (in the paying for a service sense)
Well, I don't understand that model. I expect to pay for code that someone writes because otherwise I cannot expect someone to stand by the stuff when it doesn't work.
Ironically I've never found that to be the case. The stuff I pay for, cable service, hosting; and the stuff I use that someone else pays for (i.e the people I work for), commercial hardware, software and service; are the other way round to what you suggest. I know more about networking and the applications I run at my hosting service than the ISP support group; when I do have a problem they can't help me. The same holds when I have a technical problem with software or equipment at work. I don't think of myself as a techie, but I do work though problems in a logical manner, read the manuals, work the examples and experiment. When it doesn't work the stuff I pay for doesn't get support. The response us more usually that I'm told to pay for an upgrade. Often this means I have to pay for upgrading a lot of other stuff as well. OpenSource software is different. If I have a problem and ask on the appropriate forum I get a lot of useful support. I often get to talk to the authors. Which makes a nice change fro the way the the corporate - pay for - world isolates them from the customer base. I'm not rabidly pro-FOSS. I don't preach and blog about this, write essays and books about it. I don't demand that my employers adopt FOSS. Perhaps because I do actually come into contact with the FOSS coders I see them as having a different attitude to commercial ones. I don't think this is an absolute, I don't paint everyone this way, but I think that FOSS coders take a lot of PERSONAL pride in their work an in its quality. I'm not saying that all commercial software is driven by the marketeers who come along and say "its the end of the month, ship it regardless", though I have worked in such places. Yes, that kind of attitude does not foster "pride in work". Its one reason so many people go off to work for themselves or for companies where they are respected. As Adam says "respect causes respect in kind". Politeness is part of respect. Listening (politely) and respecting other people's diversity is polite. I think a simple, absolute division that maps "four legs good, two legs bad" into the software world is overly simplistic. It doesn't matter if that division is between FOSS and commercial software or between different software products. Perhaps its because we no longer fight over which end of the egg you crack open, no longer fight over the colour of your skin (as if you can tell over the 'Net), over which branch of a religion you follow, we have to find something equally trivial and meaningless to scream and shout about. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tony Alfrey said the following on 08/20/2010 12:58 AM:
[...] There is none of this angst between Mac OS 10.4 and Mac OS 10.6, for example.
Well, for a start, Angst is a application for OSX... http://angst.darwinports.com/ But you're forgetting the "angst" that happened when Apple ... ... discontinued its traditional OS and "unix-ified" by adopting OSX to replace OS9: <quote src="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X"> Mac OS X is a series of Unix-based operating systems and graphical user interfaces developed, marketed, and sold by Apple Inc. Since 2002, Mac OS X has been included with all new Macintosh computer systems. It is the successor to Mac OS 9, the final release of the "classic" Mac OS, which had been Apple's primary operating system since 1984. </quote> Don't you remember the upset and furore at that time? <quote> The APIs that Mac OS X inherited from OpenStep are not backward compatible with earlier versions of Mac OS. </quote> And then Apple converted from the PowerPC to Intel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93Intel_transition#Reaction_to_the_... there was more upset and angst However, all this recidivism notwithstanding, there's a lesson here. Moving forward, giving up the old and adopting the new has meant great success for Apple, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Desktop_and_la... <quote src="http://www.zdnet.com/blog/gadgetreviews/gartner-apple-sells-14-million-macs-in-us-captures-8-market-share/13904"> <title "Gartner: Apple sells 1.4 million Macs in U.S.; captures 8% market share" /> Apple’s share of the U.S. market for computers grew 34 percent year over year as the company sold an estimated 1.4 million Macs, according to new research. Gartner estimates that Apple now has 8 percent of the total domestic market for PCs, and for the first three months of 2010 was the fifth-largest PC vendor, behind HP, Dell, Acer and Toshiba. </quote> It seems Apple's growth outside the US is even better. -- In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know, that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. -- Carl Sagan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
Tony Alfrey said the following on 08/20/2010 12:58 AM:
[...] There is none of this angst between Mac OS 10.4 and Mac OS 10.6, for example.
Well, for a start, Angst is a application for OSX... http://angst.darwinports.com/
But you're forgetting the "angst" that happened when Apple ...
... discontinued its traditional OS and "unix-ified" by adopting OSX to replace OS9:
Apple is not perfect. I have run every Apple operating system since my first Apple II Plus in 1979, and have had, or someone in my family has had, nearly every Mac box, including the toxic trash that Apple produced in the Scully years. I had almost given up on Apple and was running nothing but a dual-boot Linux/Windoze box, when they released OS X. It was an amazing revelation to walk into the Apple store, fire up a Terminal on an 11" PowerBook and run Unix commands. I said "this is what linux /could/ look like". That said, what Apple does right, at least recently, is to support the transition from one OS and processor to the next relatively well, and especially since the release of OS X. There is usually good support for both the "old" and "new" for a long time after the change happens. I have not used KDE 4.x yet so I do not speak from experience, only from what I hear on the lists. But what I hear is that many things in KDE 4.x were seriously broken when released, and complaints were greeted with "get used to it". I could go into even more detail about recent Apple support on a specific box but it would violate an NDA ;-) But I'll just say that I would not expect to get such support from any linux distro. And yes, a Mac is twice the price of a PC with linux installed. And it's more than worth the time saved /for me/. Sorry if we've drifted /way/ off topic (not much KDE in this), but the Apple comparison popped up. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tony Alfrey said the following on 08/20/2010 11:44 AM:
I have not used KDE 4.x yet so I do not speak from experience, only from what I hear on the lists. But what I hear is that many things in KDE 4.x were seriously broken when released, and complaints were greeted with "get used to it".
I do speak from experience: experience with KDE4 from .0 onwards as well as commercial products from storyboard, though pre-pre-pre-alpha onwards. The mistake KDE4 made was to call its pre-alpha "4.0". KDE4.4 was better quality than the "commercial release quality" of AIX or or Windows/XP, both of which were pay-for items at my relevant employer. It is normal practice in the software industry to 'release' "seriously broken" software and let the users do the debugging. A trip though the relevant vendor forums on the 'Net will show this. A good or bad thing? Well if we are talking about banking software, aviation software, various types of planning and design software, multitudinous examples of embedded software (traffic light controllers, GPS/maps, pacemakers...) the it is most definitely a Bad Thing. But then again, look at the economics. The testing has to be paid for somewhere. The FOSS world uses the "community" for development; members of the community develop the software, document the software, package the software, test the software and review the software. If embers of the community, lets call them 'users', the same users who will be the ultimate end-users of the software, don't use the pre-pre-pre-alpha version and give feedback to the developers then what real testing gets done? We know that developers are incapable of testing their own work in a realistic manner. As I said: The mistake KDE4 made was to call its pre-alpha "4.0". As for the "get used to it": No, I don't recall that. I do recall being told that feedback was wanted - useful feedback not bitching that it isn't KDE3.5. I do recall being told that KDE4 was the way forward, that work on KDE3.5 had ceased and the developers were committed to KDE4. If you want to read "I'm sorry, KDE4 is the way forward, we're working on KDE4 development and we're not interested in working on KDE3 any more" as "get used to it" then OK. I can see that some developers, feed up of being harangued and abused, might reply snappishly. My advice is that everyone take a few deep breaths, walk away from the keyboard and go play with your kids, or dog, or bunny rabbit or S.O. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
Tony Alfrey said the following on 08/20/2010 11:44 AM:
I have not used KDE 4.x yet so I do not speak from experience, only from what I hear on the lists. But what I hear is that many things in KDE 4.x were seriously broken when released, and complaints were greeted with "get used to it".
I do speak from experience: experience with KDE4 from .0 onwards as well as commercial products from storyboard, though pre-pre-pre-alpha onwards.
The mistake KDE4 made was to call its pre-alpha "4.0".
That seems to have been a major problem from all that I saw.
KDE4.4 was better quality than the "commercial release quality" of AIX or or Windows/XP, both of which were pay-for items at my relevant employer.
Well, as you can imagine, I'm not fond of most M$ products. Your point about commercial stuff not necessarily being decent in spite of payment is well taken. But I was comparing to Mac stuff.
It is normal practice in the software industry to 'release' "seriously broken" software and let the users do the debugging. A trip though the relevant vendor forums on the 'Net will show this.
That's why I wait for the second or third version before drinking the Kool-Aid.
A good or bad thing? Well if we are talking about banking software, aviation software, various types of planning and design software, multitudinous examples of embedded software (traffic light controllers, GPS/maps, pacemakers...) the it is most definitely a Bad Thing.
But then again, look at the economics. The testing has to be paid for somewhere.
The FOSS world uses the "community" for development; members of the community develop the software, document the software, package the software, test the software and review the software.
If embers of the community, lets call them 'users', the same users who will be the ultimate end-users of the software, don't use the pre-pre-pre-alpha version and give feedback to the developers then what real testing gets done? We know that developers are incapable of testing their own work in a realistic manner.
And this is an admirable approach, IMHO.
As I said: The mistake KDE4 made was to call its pre-alpha "4.0".
And perhaps another mistake was to make it at least appear to be the default DE when installing SuSE 11.x
As for the "get used to it": No, I don't recall that. I do recall being told that feedback was wanted - useful feedback not bitching that it isn't KDE3.5. I do recall being told that KDE4 was the way forward, that work on KDE3.5 had ceased and the developers were committed to KDE4. If you want to read "I'm sorry, KDE4 is the way forward, we're working on KDE4 development and we're not interested in working on KDE3 any more" as "get used to it" then OK. I can see that some developers, feed up of being harangued and abused, might reply snappishly. My advice is that everyone take a few deep breaths, walk away from the keyboard and go play with your kids, or dog, or bunny rabbit or S.O.
I'll let those intimately involved in that debate offer their viewpoint. ;-) I saw a lot of anger going in both directions that could have been avoided had some of the simple guidelines that you suggest above been followed. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 20 August 2010 21:54:03 Tony Alfrey wrote:
The mistake KDE4 made was to call its pre-alpha "4.0".
That seems to have been a major problem from all that I saw.
People we are living in the epoch of KDE 4.5, not in the times of KDE 4.0, but still it seems not much has changed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 August 2010 03:23:21 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Friday 20 August 2010 21:54:03 Tony Alfrey wrote:
The mistake KDE4 made was to call its pre-alpha "4.0".
That seems to have been a major problem from all that I saw.
People we are living in the epoch of KDE 4.5, not in the times of KDE 4.0, but still it seems not much has changed.
It seems the only one thing has not changed is your tendency to call people stupid. Not directly, but by painting bad their choice of software in a million and one way, provoking reactions every time. How hard is to understand that if something does not work for you should use something else. There is plenty of options around. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 20/08/2010 14:48, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-)
It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it.
I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x.
What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off?
Maybe because they're not customers? (in the paying for a service sense)
Regards, Lew
I see it in the opposite light. It is because the people care about the "product" and they want to see this "product" *improving* as time goes by and not "go backwards", when someone attempts at trialling out his/her (not too well thought out) concept in the real world. If this was a "paid for" "product" then this is where people would simply give up and move on to another one - "voting with their feet". I think that Linux distros are lucky that they *do* have people who are able to state their fors and againsts. Not only does this mean that there are people who care about the "product" but it also keeps the 'devs' on their toes so as not to produce crap because they will be kicked in the ass for doing so. And I believe that this KDE vs KDE situation falls in the latter category. Unfortunately, it appears that some people had their heads up in the wrong 'whereabouts', and were allowed to have their way, and now we are left with the situation of having this KDE vs KDE fiasco (as talked about in this thread as well as its parent, An Old Story 6 Years On....) - and there is simply no way of going back on it all. "Too late to shut the barn doors" as they say.... :-( . Like it or not, KDE4 is here to stay. KDE3 is "dead", but will be embalmed and preserved by some enthusiasts for as long as possible - just like the body of Lenin was for decades - until it is time to bury it...... BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 20 August 2010 09:37:10 Basil Chupin wrote:
Like it or not, KDE4 is here to stay. KDE3 is "dead", but will be embalmed and preserved by some enthusiasts for as long as possible - just like the body of Lenin was for decades - until it is time to bury it......
The difference is you cannot use the body of Lenin unlike KDE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 20/08/2010 15:52, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Friday 20 August 2010 09:37:10 Basil Chupin wrote:
Like it or not, KDE4 is here to stay. KDE3 is "dead", but will be embalmed and preserved by some enthusiasts for as long as possible - just like the body of Lenin was for decades - until it is time to bury it......
The difference is you cannot use the body of Lenin unlike KDE.
Thank you, Ilja. I hadn't thought of that..... BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:
On 20/08/2010 14:48, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
... Like it or not, KDE4 is here to stay. KDE3 is "dead", but will be embalmed and preserved by some enthusiasts for as long as possible - just like the body of Lenin was for decades - until it is time to bury it......
Oh dear, that was what we really missed, Lenin's body... I guess KDE3 and even KDE4 are much more useful... -- Mark Goldstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 20/08/2010 15:52, Mark Goldstein wrote:
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Basil Chupin<blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:
On 20/08/2010 14:48, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 08/19/2010 09:30 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
...
Like it or not, KDE4 is here to stay. KDE3 is "dead", but will be embalmed and preserved by some enthusiasts for as long as possible - just like the body of Lenin was for decades - until it is time to bury it......
Oh dear, that was what we really missed, Lenin's body... I guess KDE3 and even KDE4 are much more useful...
Oh dear, and how narrow-minded we are...... :'( BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-08-19 at 21:30 -0700, Tony Alfrey wrote:
Now, how about asking Novell to create a new mail list called opensuse-kde3 for all you enthusiasts so that you can have your own sand-box for KDE3? :-) It's not like the current KDE list is overfull with posts on it. I must say that I'm amazed with this friction between KED3.5 and 4.x. Any commercial company would give body parts to have a customer base as loyal to KDE3.5 that apparently exists, yet it appears that the open-source model is willing to abandon that loyalty. We've all heard the reasoning for abandoning KDE3.5 for "the new paradigm", and it certainly makes some sense to me, but the fact remains that there are a lot of "customers" that just don't like what they see in KDE 4.x.
False; you don't understand the nature of mail lists. There is no evidence of 'lot of "customers"', there is evidence of a very vocal group of undetermined size [that doesn't look that large to me]. Remember that web forums and mail lists *strongly* trend negative [and toward the discontented; those without issues... *do not post*] and that things like web site 'polls' are merely examples of self-selected-demographic.
What is it about the open-source model that is happy as a clam to simply tell that customer base to fsck off?
And they aren't "customers". What did they pay? Speaking just for myself when a "customer" who I've never heard of [has never contributed anything to my project] storms into a forum with a demanding tone... I don't have any issues telling them to "fsck off". Respect causes respect in kind - accusing developers of being stupid, lazy, or callous isn't respectful [seeing as they gave you something for nothing....] And maybe, just maybe, someone who has invested man-years into a code-base knows a little more something about it then a given "customer". A "customer" who doesn't begin with that assumption is just an idiot - because, of course, that's true. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
False; you don't understand the nature of mail lists. There is no evidence of 'lot of "customers"', there is evidence of a very vocal group of undetermined size [that doesn't look that large to me]. Remember that web forums and mail lists *strongly* trend negative [and toward the discontented; those without issues... *do not post*] and that things like web site 'polls' are merely examples of self-selected-demographic.
Ah yes, statistics are only good if you can use them to support your view. The simple fact is that a large number of KDE3 users have either given up and switched to KDE4(reluctantly) or have started using Gnome or some of the other desktops, OR are still using 11.0/11.1 or newer to keep what works(like myself). After all the bashing that those of us who prefer the KDE3 model got, we mostly went away because that is what a vocal minority wanted.
And they aren't "customers". What did they pay?
I USED to buy S.u.S.E. Then I started testing to contribute. Now I do very little because of lack of time and initiative. I wouldn't pay for some of the releases after using them, like 10.1.
Speaking just for myself when a "customer" who I've never heard of [has never contributed anything to my project] storms into a forum with a demanding tone... I don't have any issues telling them to "fsck off". Respect causes respect in kind - accusing developers of being stupid, lazy, or callous isn't respectful [seeing as they gave you something for nothing....]
Lack of respect was a HUGE issue a while back. I still have yet to find a single compelling reason to use KDE4. It takes time I have tired of wasting trying to find and turn off the bling. And it's slower than KDE3. Uses more resources, etc. While a lot of people like the look, I prefer clean. I drop to a VT on a regular basis, so window effects hold no interest for me.
And maybe, just maybe, someone who has invested man-years into a code-base knows a little more something about it then a given "customer". A "customer" who doesn't begin with that assumption is just an idiot - because, of course, that's true.
There's more to investment than $$. Many of us have talked up open source and linux since we started using it. However, like many, we can't recommend KDE4. What's the old saying? For every 100 happy customers you have 1 that will bad mouth you and lose you at least 10.(or something like that). Happy customers don't tend to be as vocal as unhappy ones....... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 20/08/2010 22:16, Larry Stotler wrote: [pruned]
There's more to investment than $$. Many of us have talked up open source and linux since we started using it. However, like many, we can't recommend KDE4. What's the old saying? For every 100 happy customers you have 1 that will bad mouth you and lose you at least 10.(or something like that).
I think the advertising industry has it as "every 1 unhappy customer spreads the word to 27 of his/her friends" or something like this....
Happy customers don't tend to be as vocal as unhappy ones....
So the advertising industry has it.... BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 08:16 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
False; you don't understand the nature of mail lists. There is no evidence of 'lot of "customers"', there is evidence of a very vocal group of undetermined size [that doesn't look that large to me]. Remember that web forums and mail lists *strongly* trend negative [and toward the discontented; those without issues... *do not post*] and that things like web site 'polls' are merely examples of self-selected-demographic. Ah yes, statistics are only good if you can use them to support your view.
False. Statistics are only good if they are valid; which is hard; so most aren't.
The simple fact is that a large number of KDE3 users have either given up and switched to KDE4(reluctantly) or have started using Gnome or some of the other desktops, OR are still using 11.0/11.1 or newer to keep what works(like myself).
Source?
And maybe, just maybe, someone who has invested man-years into a code-base knows a little more something about it then a given "customer". A "customer" who doesn't begin with that assumption is just an idiot - because, of course, that's true. There's more to investment than $$.
True, and then there is the "man-years" of time [see above].
Many of us have talked up open source and linux since we started using it.
Honestly, that is a paltry "investment". That is just throwing your spare change into the jar. What's the old saying? "Talk is cheap. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
Ah yes, statistics are only good if you can use them to support your view.
False. Statistics are only good if they are valid; which is hard; so most aren't.
I don't know about you, but I've always seen that people use them to their own advantage. Back before 11.1, there was MORE KDE3 users than KDE4, and they still wanted to drop KDE3 for 11.1 even with those facts. KDE4.5 is much more usable than KDE4.0.x or KDE4.1.x. But how many users actually use the KDE4 repo to upgrade to fix issues? I've love to see how high or low that percentage was.
The simple fact is that a large number of KDE3 users have either given up and switched to KDE4(reluctantly) or have started using Gnome or some of the other desktops, OR are still using 11.0/11.1 or newer to keep what works(like myself).
Source?
This list and google.
Honestly, that is a paltry "investment". That is just throwing your spare change into the jar. What's the old saying? "Talk is cheap.
You know Adam, I don't HAVE to do anything for opensource. I don't have to file bug reports, or share my experience, or promote it, or anything. I don't HAVE to even pay for it. As for Talk being cheap, generally supply exceeds demand. However, without people getting the word out, Linux would be nothing more than a novelty like Minux. Besides, I do very little advertising. Most of my customers are referals. So I know the power of talk. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 20. August 2010, 17:20:24 schrieb Larry Stotler:
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
Ah yes, statistics are only good if you can use them to support your view.
False. Statistics are only good if they are valid; which is hard; so most aren't.
I don't know about you, but I've always seen that people use them to their own advantage. Back before 11.1, there was MORE KDE3 users than KDE4, and they still wanted to drop KDE3 for 11.1 even with those facts. KDE4.5 is much more usable than KDE4.0.x or KDE4.1.x. But how many users actually use the KDE4 repo to upgrade to fix issues? I've love to see how high or low that percentage was.
What would that tell you? If hardly any people use it, it might be because they are happy with their KDE4 or because there are hardly any KDE4 users. If a lot of people use the repos it might be because they like to use KDE4 and opensuse does a good job regarding easy updates or it might be that they want the new features of the new version etc. No software is bug-free which is why all DEs do bugfix releases until they die. Usage numbers can be interepreted either way. What you need is absolute numbers which desktop is used. And then you still cannot say much because what matters is the "why" or "why not". Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 20 August 2010 21:32:35 Sven Burmeister wrote:
What would that tell you? If hardly any people use it, it might be because they are happy with their KDE4 or because there are hardly any KDE4 users. If a lot of people use the repos it might be because they like to use KDE4 and opensuse does a good job regarding easy updates or it might be that they want the new features of the new version etc. No software is bug-free which is why all DEs do bugfix releases until they die.
Usage numbers can be interepreted either way. What you need is absolute numbers which desktop is used. And then you still cannot say much because what matters is the "why" or "why not".
In the times of 11.0 there was a poll on which DE use the OpenSUSE users, and it showed that the most still used KDE3. Next year there was similar poll again but this time KDE3 option was dropped altogether (only KDE, Gnome Xfce left without specifying KDE variant). Thus the number of KDE3 user dropped from the Majority to zero just in one year! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 12:21 +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
What would that tell you? If hardly any people use it, it might be because they are happy with their KDE4 or because there are hardly any KDE4 users. If a lot of people use the repos it might be because they like to use KDE4 and opensuse does a good job regarding easy updates or it might be that they want the new features of the new version etc. No software is bug-free which is why all DEs do bugfix releases until they die. Usage numbers can be interepreted either way. What you need is absolute numbers which desktop is used. And then you still cannot say much because what matters is the "why" or "why not". In the times of 11.0 there was a poll on which DE use the OpenSUSE users, and it showed that the most still used KDE3. Next year there was similar
On Friday 20 August 2010 21:32:35 Sven Burmeister wrote: poll again but this time KDE3 option was dropped altogether (only KDE, Gnome Xfce left without specifying KDE variant).
As previously discussed - that poll means next to nothing. I know that neither myself or any of my coworkers filled it out. Unless you can pool a random [*not* self-selected] sample of users - your results do not mean anything at all. Nothing. Zip. Nada. It would be advantageous if people would just stop taking these kinds of polls.
Thus the number of KDE3 user dropped from the Majority to zero just in one year!
Ok, the original results didn't mean anything either, so who cares? -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-08-22 14:32, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
As previously discussed - that poll means next to nothing. I know that neither myself or any of my coworkers filled it out.
Unless you can pool a random [*not* self-selected] sample of users - your results do not mean anything at all. Nothing. Zip. Nada. It would be advantageous if people would just stop taking these kinds of polls.
Absolutely. Webpolls are meaningless - regardless of results. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxxbbIACgkQU92UU+smfQUZRgCeLM+AS1XKGwdCb1TOxOUFpcb+ TR8AoJDjCX9YBXu4kq8coDAIRL4n0/7c =H9Yq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 20 August 2010 16:16:49 Larry Stotler wrote:
Lack of respect was a HUGE issue a while back. I still have yet to find a single compelling reason to use KDE4. It takes time I have tired of wasting trying to find and turn off the bling. And it's slower than KDE3. Uses more resources, etc. While a lot of people like the look, I prefer clean. I drop to a VT on a regular basis, so window effects hold no interest for me.
In fact situation with window effects is much better in KDE3.5 than in KDE4 because KDE3 supports Compiz and KDE4 does not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 22/08/2010 17:40, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Friday 20 August 2010 16:16:49 Larry Stotler wrote:
Lack of respect was a HUGE issue a while back. I still have yet to find a single compelling reason to use KDE4. It takes time I have tired of wasting trying to find and turn off the bling. And it's slower than KDE3. Uses more resources, etc. While a lot of people like the look, I prefer clean. I drop to a VT on a regular basis, so window effects hold no interest for me.
In fact situation with window effects is much better in KDE3.5 than in KDE4 because KDE3 supports Compiz and KDE4 does not.
So.....KDE3 is better than KDE4....is this what you are stating? BC -- Wagner's music is really not as bad as it sounds. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 August 2010 09:54:14 Basil Chupin wrote:
On 22/08/2010 17:40, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Friday 20 August 2010 16:16:49 Larry Stotler wrote:
This mailing list would be a lot nicer place if people didn't repeatedly fail to resist the urge to
Lack of respect was a HUGE issue a while back. I still have yet to find a single compelling reason to use KDE4. It takes time I have tired of wasting trying to find and turn off the bling. And it's slower than KDE3. Uses more resources, etc. While a lot of people like the look, I prefer clean. I drop to a VT on a regular basis, so window effects hold no interest for me.
report on their personal feelings, usage or other details that are uninteresting and irrelevant to the rest,
In fact situation with window effects is much better in KDE3.5 than in KDE4 because KDE3 supports Compiz and KDE4 does not.
spread false information, especially about things they apparently do not even use,
So.....KDE3 is better than KDE4....is this what you are stating?
or beat the dead horse over and over and over and over again. Please stop this. The original post said everything, including a place where to continue the discussion. The rest here is another useless KDE3 discussion. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Please stop this. The original post said everything, including a place where to continue the discussion.
Lubos, I think it would be very useful if we had our separate OpenSUSE-related KDE3 mailing list. I think spamming with KDE3-related stuff into general KDE mailing list is not a good idea now as it is currently deals excusively with KDE4. On the other hand, I see no reason why we should join a forum of a less successful KDE3 project than our own and related to another distribution as proposed by David. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 August 2010 07:35:50 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
Lubos, I think it would be very useful if we had our separate OpenSUSE-related KDE3 mailing list. I think spamming with KDE3-related stuff into general KDE mailing list is not a good idea now as it is currently deals excusively with KDE4.
As long as you talk about technical stuff, without even remote reference how you feel about newer KDE version, it is fine with me. We know your feelings, and you are not really smart if you think that we didn't get that after first few posts. The only thing that I don't like is generalization of personal problems with some software. There is many reasons why some piece of code is not for certain person, or group of people, and problems are not always in that piece of code. Sometimes it is just combination of usage pattern, hardware and other installed code that makes a problem. In case that you pointed out in your numerous emails, it is somewhat different usage pattern of KDE4 that you don't want to accept and buggy Nvidia driver. The problems with customization, fonts and mouse pointers that doesn't work well for you, can be related to graphic card driver, so that part has to be confirmed by someone using different hardware. Nobody forces you to accept new usage patterns, but also nobody can turn developers interest back to KDE3. Freedom of choice works for both parties, users and developers. Luckily, unlike windows in Linux you can use something else. It is not that people have no choice and have to complain ad nauseum with hope that someone will help them with their problems. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-08-22 19:13, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 22 August 2010 07:35:50 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
Lubos, I think it would be very useful if we had our separate OpenSUSE-related KDE3 mailing list. I think spamming with KDE3-related stuff into general KDE mailing list is not a good idea now as it is currently deals excusively with KDE4.
As long as you talk about technical stuff, without even remote reference how you feel about newer KDE version, it is fine with me. We know your feelings, and you are not really smart if you think that we didn't get that after first few posts.
We are all human. It would be very difficult to keep such threads aseptical: sooner or later someone would say something regarding one or the other that the other group would not like and flames would spark. Yes, I do think that a kde3 mail list would be adequate, just for that reason. To rid ourselves of useless discussions. Keep both sides separate. (and no, please, I'm not taking sides. I have use for both) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxxb5QACgkQU92UU+smfQVt4gCgjLCddQlKFMHams7IQ2LS0ueE oGYAn11yLf8iN/+f7X5mpsCUurJyMQjt =I5R4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 August 2010 13:42:28 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...
We are all human. It would be very difficult to keep such threads aseptical: sooner or later someone would say something regarding one or the other that the other group would not like and flames would spark.
It was just my opinion , but as I think that I know people on KDE list, they should be fine with KDE3 talk, as long as it doesn't include what we see here, time and again repeated feelings and heavy load of misunderstanding about relations between developers and users; "They (developers) should do this, they should do that." They do what they want to, it is their time. Some people go to bars, other to dance places, some play music, other listen, some go to sport events, other play there, but no one likes when someone else is telling him/her what to do with his/her own time. It is against basic basic understanding what is free time. We (users) can swim around if we know how, or learn how to code and join the other side (and listen what we have to do :) We can also politely ask for features, and if those that can code have time and joy to work on it, we will have it. It is basic of FOSS, everything is possible if people respect each other.
Yes, I do think that a kde3 mail list would be adequate, just for that reason. To rid ourselves of useless discussions. Keep both sides separate.
(and no, please, I'm not taking sides. I have use for both)
Keeping separate will not prevent someone to cross ML boundaries, and keeping all in one pot can help KDE3 guys to get some help from KDE developers. They developed and know KDE3, so they can give tips how to deal with some problems, but as usually if they have time and joy to help, not because someone requested help. Current list is free for anyone talking KDE. The topic is not set to KDE4 only talks. That majority talks about KDE4 is just the fact that is the topic that they have interest in, nothing more. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010-08-23 01:02, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 22 August 2010 13:42:28 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...
We are all human. It would be very difficult to keep such threads aseptical: sooner or later someone would say something regarding one or the other that the other group would not like and flames would spark.
It was just my opinion , but as I think that I know people on KDE list, they should be fine with KDE3 talk, as long as it doesn't include what we see here, time and again repeated feelings and heavy load of misunderstanding about relations between developers and users; "They (developers) should do this, they should do that." They do what they want to, it is their time. Some people go to bars, other to dance places, some play music, other listen, some go to sport events, other play there, but no one likes when someone else is telling him/her what to do with his/her own time. It is against basic basic understanding what is free time.
We (users) can swim around if we know how, or learn how to code and join the other side (and listen what we have to do :) We can also politely ask for features, and if those that can code have time and joy to work on it, we will have it. It is basic of FOSS, everything is possible if people respect each other.
Yes, I do think that a kde3 mail list would be adequate, just for that reason. To rid ourselves of useless discussions. Keep both sides separate.
(and no, please, I'm not taking sides. I have use for both)
Keeping separate will not prevent someone to cross ML boundaries, and keeping all in one pot can help KDE3 guys to get some help from KDE developers. They developed and know KDE3, so they can give tips how to deal with some problems, but as usually if they have time and joy to help, not because someone requested help.
Current list is free for anyone talking KDE. The topic is not set to KDE4 only talks. That majority talks about KDE4 is just the fact that is the topic that they have interest in, nothing more.
You "should" be right, but I'm afraid that a coment from someone from any side could spark a reaction on the other side, and the reaction escalate. Like a kde4 dev commenting that kde3 is a dead horse (and they do here), or a kd3 one saying that kde4 was released when not ready lying to users (as they do here). It could work only if both sides promise to keep things civil, helping one another as they can. Kde4 people could, perhaps, see needs they could fill in kde4 porting kde3 features or whatever, for example. Or kde3 people could see that kde4 is not that bad. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))
On Sunday 22 August 2010 21:13:35 Rajko M. wrote:
Lubos, I think it would be very useful if we had our separate OpenSUSE-related KDE3 mailing list. I think spamming with KDE3-related stuff into general KDE mailing list is not a good idea now as it is currently deals excusively with KDE4.
As long as you talk about technical stuff, without even remote reference how you feel about newer KDE version, it is fine with me. We know your feelings, and you are not really smart if you think that we didn't get that after first few posts.
We currently have several people who contribute to the KDE:KDE3 repository, we sometimes have to discuss bugs, new packages and other technical stuff. Currently I post such messages to a number of e-mails to get a feedback. Unfortunately, not all people who contribute in KDE3 repo are included (and maybe some who are not interested, included). It would be much more convenient if we could use a separate mailing list so interested people could subscribe themselves. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 August 2010 13:57:55 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
It would be much more convenient if we could use a separate mailing list so interested people could subscribe themselves.
I don't see the need. As mentioned in the answer to Carlos, current KDE ML is not defined as KDE4 only, so any KDE talk that doesn't include flame baits should be fine. I don't think that KDE3 technical stuff related threads will attract participation of those interested in KDE4, and vice verse. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 08/23/2010 01:08 AM, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 22 August 2010 13:57:55 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
It would be much more convenient if we could use a separate mailing list so interested people could subscribe themselves.
I don't see the need.
As mentioned in the answer to Carlos, current KDE ML is not defined as KDE4 only, so any KDE talk that doesn't include flame baits should be fine. I don't think that KDE3 technical stuff related threads will attract participation of those interested in KDE4, and vice verse.
I concur with Ilya. That is, if you look at the various messages, it is obvious that a separate KDE3 list would be better. If just to avoid cluttering the KDE4 discussions with an old Desktop environment. It's not obsolete, but just antiquated in some area's. Yes, I like the simple win98 interface myself, but that does not mean I can move ahead. I recognize that others move ahead. Not always to my likings, but I understand and try to adopt the new environment including the sometime less likeable differences. In the end, I can appreciate the differences and make them my own. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 8/22/2010 7:24 PM, Frans de Boer wrote:
On 08/23/2010 01:08 AM, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 22 August 2010 13:57:55 Ilya Chernykh wrote:
It would be much more convenient if we could use a separate mailing list so interested people could subscribe themselves. /snip/ I would agree.
Yes, I like the simple win98 interface myself, but that does not mean I can move ahead. I recognize that others move ahead. Not always to my likings, but I understand and try to adopt the new environment including the sometime less likeable differences.
/snip/ I'm with Frans. The old Win 98 interface was fine. It didn't try to force you into boxes, like Win XP, Win 7, and the recent Linux desktops do. I.e., My Documents, My Pictures, My Music, whatever. You could make a completely free-standing directory--I hate the name folder-- that could be called, for example, Grandkids, and it could include pictures, emails, Christmas lists, and so on. And you could deal with these directories, vis-a-vis copying and pasting, etc., because they didn't become humongously large. Yes, you can still do that, but the system kind of tells you you shouldn't. Just like you "shouldn't" criticize KDE4.x. You can deal with 4.x, but lots of folks, it would seem, would rather not have to. As it turns out, (I think I've mentioned it before in this list) KDE4.x can be tamed, to some degree, and is, in PcLOs. I gave Kubuntu one look and shut it down. SuSE falls somewhere in the middle, I feel, and not just because of the DE. But this list is probably not the place to elaborate on that. Apropos of nothing previous, I have found an evening college course in Unix/Linux, and will be starting it in about 2 weeks. I hope to be more knowledgeable and useful by the end of the semester in December! I am grateful to Suffolk County (NY) Community College for offering this course, and I think it would be a service to have this sort of thing available in all parts of the country--or the world. You who have any influence in that area, speak up! --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:40:13 -0400, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:
I still use MacOS 9 on my Powerbook 3400, and there's someone supporting Mozilla on it with a program called Classilla( classilla.org ). It's still rough, but usable.
But people expext that they can run KDE3 on their version of openSUSE and their current hardware. And for that you need quite a few developers that can evolve the code.
OS/2 is still around as eCommstation. That's been dead for how long in many people's minds?
eCommstation is maintained and developed, so there's a difference.
Thanx for the encouragment. Now please let us fail in our own time............
Much less ambitioned projects (naming just YaST as example) have failed before, why should this succeed? Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Philipp Thomas <Philipp.Thomas2@gmx.net> wrote:
But people expext that they can run KDE3 on their version of openSUSE and their current hardware. And for that you need quite a few developers that can evolve the code.
Since the majority is probably not aware of the fact that KDE3 is still an option, albiet a rather dead end one, they probably won't know. Most distos have moved on. That's what made KDE4 the default. A lot of my complaints was that openSUSE, with the legacy of S.u.S.E.'s stability, switched over way too soon. KDE4 wasn't really mostly stable until recently, and while it makes sense for the devs to work on it, I felt that KDE3 should have been an option until recently. Stability is what Linux is known for, and KDE4 wasn't showing that. 10.1 was bad enough being released with a broken package manager. 11.0 should have had KDE3, then Gnome, and then KDE4 listed, and selecting KDE4 should have popped up a warning about it being very BETA software. However, what's done is done. Hopefully lessons have been learned for the future.
eCommstation is maintained and developed, so there's a difference.
Granted.
Much less ambitioned projects (naming just YaST as example) have failed before, why should this succeed?
There are different levels and expectations of success. Some only want to see KDE3 extended so that it continues to work as it has for a long time. At some point, this may end up being a losing battle due to changes in the kernel. Most distros have switched over to kernel 2.6 even tho 2.4 is leaner. Hardware support is part of it. 2.4 works well on outdated machines, and 2.6 is cutting edge. A lot of 2.6 was back ported to 2.4, but not everything. Coming from OS/2, I fould KDE to work the closest to what I was used to. KDE4 doesn't do that any more. It was a radical change, and not a 100% wanted one. If enough people can get together and limp KDE3 on for those of us who want it, then what's the problem with wasting out time and effort? That's what open source is about. Change is change. It isn't always for the better. Cars today are safer in some respects, but not in others. Air bags aren't as safe as they were advertised, with some people getting killed(smaller people) making an exception. Seatbelts are still the best way to survive an accident. I'd put my old 72 Chevy pickup against another pickup any day over a compact car. Too many people have died from small cars hitting large trucks. Quite frankly, the thread was about KDE3. Some have interupted and asked us what's the point. The point is we perfer KDE3. I gave up on KDE4 a long time ago(though I still look at it as it is updated). It still brings nothing useful to the table. Make it easy for me to turn off unneeded and unwanted "features" and I may find it useful. That's my choice. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 24. August 2010, 00:24:29 schrieb Larry Stotler:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Philipp Thomas <Philipp.Thomas2@gmx.net> wrote:
But people expext that they can run KDE3 on their version of openSUSE and their current hardware. And for that you need quite a few developers that can evolve the code.
Since the majority is probably not aware of the fact that KDE3 is still an option, albiet a rather dead end one, they probably won't know.
Only those that don't know how to use google and type "opensuse <their version> kde3".
Most distos have moved on. That's what made KDE4 the default. A lot of my complaints was that openSUSE, with the legacy of S.u.S.E.'s stability, switched over way too soon. KDE4 wasn't really mostly stable until recently, and while it makes sense for the devs to work on it, I felt that KDE3 should have been an option until recently. Stability is what Linux is known for, and KDE4 wasn't showing that. 10.1 was bad enough being released with a broken package manager. 11.0 should have had KDE3, then Gnome, and then KDE4 listed, and selecting KDE4 should have popped up a warning about it being very BETA software. However, what's done is done. Hopefully lessons have been learned for the future.
According to the screenshots and my memories those that could read did not have any trouble to identify that KDE 4.0 was not advertised as stable as KDE 3.5. http://www.linuxplanet.com/graphics/screenshots/openSUSE11install1.png "KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops". "KDE 3.5 is the previous generation of the K Desktop Environment. It is mature and stable". So those that chose KDE 4.0 and complain about its state at that time seem to have skipped the reading part. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Sven Burmeister <sven.burmeister@gmx.net> wrote:
Only those that don't know how to use google and type "opensuse <their version> kde3".
And since no one is promoting it anymore, then few will be aware of the point in searching. I wasn't going to bother. But now I know.
"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops".
less mature sure didn't tell people it was ALPHA software. Even the KDE team was unhappy that so many distros jumped on it. Fedora dropped KDE3 for v9 completely.
So those that chose KDE 4.0 and complain about its state at that time seem to have skipped the reading part.
I remember how many issues people had with KDE4.0.4 in 11.0. I'd say from memory it was probably the most posted issue on 11.0 overall. Even the devs said 4.0.x wasn't ready for prime time. Anyway, All this is a moot point. This thread was started about KDE3, and there is bound to be dome KDE4 bashing. If you are not interested in working on KDE3, why post in this? Many of us who want KDE 3 have given up on 4 and aren't posting about 4 unless it's a request for change. Like I said earlier, why not let us fail in our own time? We don't care about "setting the record straight" and honestly, all this is taking away from what we need to be doing, which is getting work done to get KDE3 back up to speed. In my opinion, KDE4 is not, and may never be a replacement for KDE3. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> [08-24-10 08:24]:
Anyway, All this is a moot point. This thread was started about KDE3, and there is bound to be dome KDE4 bashing.
yes, you are here.
If you are not interested in working on KDE3, why post in this? Many of us who want KDE 3 have given up on 4 and aren't posting about 4 unless it's a request for change.
so that includes "bashing"?
Like I said earlier, why not let us fail in our own time? We don't care about "setting the record straight" and honestly, all this is taking away from what we need to be doing, which is getting work done to get KDE3 back up to speed.
you don't "care" but go on to say:
In my opinion, KDE4 is not, and may never be a replacement for KDE3.
If as you say, you want it to be kde3, no reference to kde4 past backporting should occur. But you "stir the pot"! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 08:21 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
Only those that don't know how to use google and type "opensuse <their version> kde3". And since no one is promoting it anymore, then few will be aware of
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Sven Burmeister <sven.burmeister@gmx.net> wrote: the point in searching. I wasn't going to bother. But now I know.
Well, at least *everyone* on this list knows about it, in excruciating detail.
Anyway, All this is a moot point. This thread was started about KDE3, and there is bound to be dome KDE4 bashing. If you are not interested in working on KDE3, why post in this? Many of us who want KDE 3 have given up on 4 and aren't posting about 4 unless it's a request for change.
Seriously... you keep going on and on and on about KDE4.
Like I said earlier, why not let us fail in our own time? We don't care about "setting the record straight" and honestly, all this is taking away from what we need to be doing, which is getting work done to get KDE3 back up to speed. In my opinion, KDE4 is not, and may never be a replacement for KDE3.
Heh, you did it again. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 24 August 2010 01:56:00 Philipp Thomas wrote:
Much less ambitioned projects (naming just YaST as example) have failed before, why should this succeed?
Can you please clarify, what do you mean? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Ilya Chernykh (neptunia@mail.ru) [20100824 00:49]:
Much less ambitioned projects (naming just YaST as example) have failed before, why should this succeed?
Can you please clarify, what do you mean?
I was refering to the original version of YaST aka YaST1 which was a text mode only application. When SuSE replaced it by YaST2, there was a loud outcry from those that prefered YaST1. So some people took the YaST1 sources and startet a sourceforge project to keep YaST1 alive. And guess what? The project never got farther than its creation. That's what I expect to happen to this KD3 fork. Granted, there are counter examples like gcc, where the majority of developers disliked the way gcc was maintained (what ESR called the cathedral model) so they forked gcc and created egcs using the basar development model. After a few years the FSF accepted that egcs would be the official gcc. But this succeeded only because the majority of developers followed the fork. And for KDE3 this isn't the case. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Philipp Thomas <pth@suse.de> wrote:
I was refering to the original version of YaST aka YaST1 which was a text mode only application. When SuSE replaced it by YaST2, there was a loud outcry from those that prefered YaST1. So some people took the YaST1 sources and startet a sourceforge project to keep YaST1 alive. And guess what? The project never got farther than its creation.
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
El 24/08/10 11:02, Larry Stotler escribió:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"...
Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:18:33PM -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"...
Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant.
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later. The YaST license was always Open Source even before it changed to GPL v2 or later. Redistribution of all SUSE versions was possible. But it was impossible to earn money from it to anyone else than the owner of the copyright. I still consider this smart if not brilliant. Not only cause this approach somehow ensured to get me paid. It's so funny to see all these people today using a closed shops to perform the daily search on the web or even as mail provider but still complaining about the roots of YaST and its initial license. Fame and FUD on! Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:18:33PM -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"...
Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant.
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later.
Think about how poor the information must have been 15 years ago. It has also been my impression that YaST was pretty closed up until openSUSE came along - maybe I never looked closely enough. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 06:53:04PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:18:33PM -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"...
Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant.
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later.
Think about how poor the information must have been 15 years ago. It has also been my impression that YaST was pretty closed up until openSUSE came along - maybe I never looked closely enough.
The file COPYRIGHT.yast was on all install media. The title of the text was "YaST and S.u.S.E. Linux licence terms". And it was well hidden in the top level directory. Maybe the hard part was not to find but to read it. ;) Yes, at that time we had no public SUSE project running as we have now with openSUSE. Even the beta testing was somehow closed. But that's a different topic compared to the licence. Two pairs of shoes and with the view back from today it sounds somehow strange why it had been this way. But even this is a very different topic than the YaST was not Open Source FUD. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 06:53:04PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:18:33PM -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"...
Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant.
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later.
Think about how poor the information must have been 15 years ago. It has also been my impression that YaST was pretty closed up until openSUSE came along - maybe I never looked closely enough.
The file COPYRIGHT.yast was on all install media. The title of the text was "YaST and S.u.S.E. Linux licence terms". And it was well hidden in the top level directory. Maybe the hard part was not to find but to read it. ;)
Where was the source code? (just curious). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:12:02PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 06:53:04PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:18:33PM -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
> Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was > copyrighted and not open?
What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"...
Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant.
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later.
Think about how poor the information must have been 15 years ago. It has also been my impression that YaST was pretty closed up until openSUSE came along - maybe I never looked closely enough.
The file COPYRIGHT.yast was on all install media. The title of the text was "YaST and S.u.S.E. Linux licence terms". And it was well hidden in the top level directory. Maybe the hard part was not to find but to read it. ;)
Where was the source code? (just curious).
At that time I expect it was managed with an internal CVS. But I hardly remember this as I never worked on YaST. For the released code I found the source RPMs (including YaST) at http://ftp5.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/5.3/i386.de/suse/zq1/ The time of the zq1 sub directory for the sources and the spm files. A tribute to the 8.3 file name limitation on DOS file systems. All with a big IIRC. file yast.spm yast.spm: RPM v3.0 src This file is from August 1998. I've not been able to find an older public archive. Till my last relocation I kept copies off the old versions. As time goes by ... Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
On Tuesday 24 August 2010 20:53:04 Per Jessen wrote:
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later.
Think about how poor the information must have been 15 years ago. It has also been my impression that YaST was pretty closed up until openSUSE came along - maybe I never looked closely enough.
Non-commercial license is not considered Open-Source compliant. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 21:45 +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
On Tuesday 24 August 2010 20:53:04 Per Jessen wrote:
Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later. Think about how poor the information must have been 15 years ago. It has also been my impression that YaST was pretty closed up until openSUSE came along - maybe I never looked closely enough. Non-commercial license is not considered Open-Source compliant.
But "considered" is present tense, and this 'issue' with the YaST license was approaching a decade ago. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-08-24 at 18:42 +0200, Lars Müller wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open? What ? all software is copyrighted unless released in the "public domain"(in some jurisdictions) and if it was closed, there was no way to "pick the source and start a fork"... Parts of S.u.S.E. weren't open source and you couldn't distribute it is what I meant. Funny to read this FUD even 15 years later. The YaST license was always Open Source even before it changed to GPL v2 or later. Redistribution of all SUSE versions was possible. But it was impossible to earn money from it to anyone else than the owner of the copyright. I still consider this smart if not brilliant. Not only cause this approach somehow ensured to get me paid. It's so funny to see all these people today using a closed shops to
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:18:33PM -0400, Larry Stotler wrote: perform the daily search on the web or even as mail provider but still complaining about the roots of YaST and its initial license.
Not just about YAST; the hatred of the M$ in the same breath as the love of the [possibly more proprietary] G$ is mind boggling. But it makes about as much sense as most of this thread. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Larry Stotler (larrystotler@gmail.com) [20100824 17:02]:
Didn't that have a lot to do with the fact that YaST was copyrighted and not open?
Every software is copyrighted! And the code was open, it just wasn't BSD or GPL but it's own license. The only restriction it had, was that you couldn't use it in another distribution without explicit permission. So no, the stall had nothing to do with it but rather with a lack of experienced programmers that knew the innards of YaST. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 24 August 2010 18:53:49 Philipp Thomas wrote:
I was refering to the original version of YaST aka YaST1 which was a text mode only application. When SuSE replaced it by YaST2, there was a loud outcry from those that prefered YaST1. So some people took the YaST1 sources and startet a sourceforge project to keep YaST1 alive. And guess what? The project never got farther than its creation.
That's what I expect to happen to this KD3 fork.
Granted, there are counter examples like gcc, where the majority of developers disliked the way gcc was maintained (what ESR called the cathedral model) so they forked gcc and created egcs using the basar development model. After a few years the FSF accepted that egcs would be the official gcc. But this succeeded only because the majority of developers followed the fork. And for KDE3 this isn't the case.
It is not our aim to fork KDE3. It is Timothy Pearson who does it. We only maintain packages. Once we see what Timothy did is good enough and better than we have, we could include the new packages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Ilya Chernykh (neptunia@mail.ru) [20100824 00:49]:
Much less ambitioned projects (naming just YaST as example) have failed before, why should this succeed?
Can you please clarify, what do you mean?
I was refering to the original version of YaST aka YaST1 which was a text mode only application. When SuSE replaced it by YaST2, there was a loud outcry from those that prefered YaST1. So some people took the YaST1 sources and startet a sourceforge project to keep YaST1 alive. And guess what? The project never got farther than its creation.
Instead, YaST2 has a text mode. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Per Jessen (per@opensuse.org) [20100824 18:52]:
Instead, YaST2 has a text mode.
But AFAIR that came a bit later and at the start YaST2 wasn't as powerful as YaST1. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Per Jessen (per@opensuse.org) [20100824 18:52]:
Instead, YaST2 has a text mode.
But AFAIR that came a bit later and at the start YaST2 wasn't as powerful as YaST1.
Philipp
It's too long ago, I can't remember either - I think you're right, it came later, but there was also a period with both YaST1 and -2. I think. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 25 August 2010, Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Per Jessen (per@opensuse.org) [20100824 18:52]:
Instead, YaST2 has a text mode.
But AFAIR that came a bit later and at the start YaST2 wasn't as powerful as YaST1.
That's true! The original Yast2 was terrible in comparison. And all the complaining on the list about it. It would be fun to look back into some archives that go back that far. I'll try to see if I still have one of the distros that had both. I think it was somewhere around the 7 series, but could be wrong. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 11.0 Kernel 2.6.25 KDE 3.5 Kmail 1.9 2:50pm up 1 day 18:52, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.21 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 25 August 2010, Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Per Jessen (per@opensuse.org) [20100824 18:52]:
Instead, YaST2 has a text mode.
But AFAIR that came a bit later and at the start YaST2 wasn't as powerful as YaST1.
Philipp
Just to add a bit of history, I took a look on some of my old versions. 6.1 was still yast1 or just yast. I don't have any of the later 6.x versions, but 7.0 had both yast and yast2 rpms. The fun part was looking at the 6.1 CD's and seeing the old addresses in Oakland, Ca. and also Schanzackerstr. in Nuremberg. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 11.0 Kernel 2.6.25 KDE 3.5 Kmail 1.9 5:00pm up 1 day 21:03, 3 users, load average: 0.17, 0.13, 0.04 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
[dellayed sent] On 2010-08-24 16:53, Philipp Thomas wrote:
* Ilya Chernykh () [20100824 00:49]:
Much less ambitioned projects (naming just YaST as example) have failed before, why should this succeed?
Can you please clarify, what do you mean?
I was refering to the original version of YaST aka YaST1 which was a text mode only application. When SuSE replaced it by YaST2, there was a loud outcry from those that prefered YaST1. So some people took the YaST1 sources and startet a sourceforge project to keep YaST1 alive. And guess what? The project never got farther than its creation.
I remember. Probably because yast2 quickly got most its problems solved, so there was really no need for yast1 for long. But for some time the distro had to keep both yast1 and yast2, as some features or modules had not been ported (yet).
That's what I expect to happen to this KD3 fork.
That will depend on how long it takes to "finish" kde4 >:-P -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))
participants (28)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Anton Aylward -
Basil Chupin -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
David C. Rankin -
Doug -
Frans de Boer -
Greg Freemyer -
Ilya Chernykh -
John Andersen -
Larry Stotler -
Lars Müller -
Lew Wolfgang -
Lubos Lunak -
Mark Goldstein -
Mike -
Mike McMullin -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Philipp Thomas -
Philipp Thomas -
Rajko M. -
Sven Burmeister -
Tony Alfrey -
Will Stephenson