Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:20:11 +0100 From: amircea@libertysurf.fr Message-ID: <20001129082011.A241@libertysurf.fr> Subject: The browser misery After trying Netscape 6, Opera and Konqueror on some difficult Web pages I arrive at the conclusion that at present time there is no acceptable browser program for linux users. Some pages have gotten so complex security features, tuned to work with Microsoft Internet Explorer, that only this browser can show them correctly. I don't blame Microsoft for this; it's the people who designed the pages who are to blame, I guess. Therefore, it is impossible nowadays to surf on the Internet without Windows and the Internet Explorer. I suppose that this is what americans call liberty...
From: Guy Van Sanden <sienix@crosswinds.net> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:43:33 GMT Message-ID: <20001129.8433322@pcf570.atea.be> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery
>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 29/11/2000, 08:20:11, amircea@libertysurf.fr wrote regarding [SLE] The browser misery: <p>> After trying Netscape 6, Opera and Konqueror on some difficult Web
pages I arrive at the conclusion that at present time there is no acceptable browser program for linux users.
I use both Netscape and StarOffice (5.2) as my browsers. And sometimes even the text-based lynx. To this date I have not yet gotten any page I couldn't open in one of these! Be sure to use Netscape 4.76 (or higher), and not the preview version of 6. This has a new and different engine which is good, but not yet finnished, and therefor not entirely compatible. For pages made for Internet Explorer, I usually use StarOffice, as it seems compatible with both IE and Netscape.
Some pages have gotten so complex security features, tuned to
work
with Microsoft Internet Explorer, that only this browser can show them correctly.
Not quite true, the reason is that these pages are usually designed with a MS product, like frontpage or a Java-development program from MS. If you run an frontpage-document through a HTML-checker, you'll be surprised about the number of errors it contains. Especially, when using tables, all the end-tags are left out (like </TABLE>), causing any browser following the W3C standards for HTML and not the MS-standards to stop processing the page. The same goes for the Java-applets. Java (not Javascript, which was created by Netscape, and also 'modified' by MS) was developed by SUN, which made it free to implement, providing you keep to the standards (like implemented in the Sun-Java virtual machine). MS didn't do this (they were once convited by the courts for this), and created the MS virtual machine, as you could guess, not compatible with the original from SUN. BTW, IE is the browser with the most security holes you can find, so I don't thing that the complex security features are the real problem. I don't blame Microsoft for this; it's the people who designed
the pages who are to blame, I guess. Therefore, it is impossible nowadays to surf on the Internet without Windows and the Internet Explorer. I suppose that this is what americans call liberty...
I DO blame MS for this, and often not the creators of these pages. Many companies buy PC's, pre-installed with Windows. Than they take out an Internet-subscription... and what does the CD of most Belgian providers install... guess... Internet Explorer, Frontpage and Outlook. So they make their pages in Frontpage, often not knowing they are limiting themselves to customers that only use IE. If you want to surrender to Bill Gates, nobody is stopping or judging you. But I've always been raised with the idea that freedom is something you don't get gift-wrapped. You fight for it. That's why I use Linux, FreeBSD and in general Open Source software. But, the choice is yours, now that there still is a choice. Kind regards Guy
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Message-ID: <3A250030.B93401BB@skynet.be> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:10:09 +0100 From: fx Fraipont <fxf@skynet.be> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery
After trying Netscape 6, Opera and Konqueror on some difficult
Web
pages I arrive at the conclusion that at present time there is no acceptable browser program for linux users.
Maybe the problem is not so much how the pages display (though Nestape 6 displays pages a lot better than 4.7x), but rather how stable the browser is. I have been mostly microsoft free for about two years now, but I still need the occasional windows 98 trip for my home banking program (1). Interestingly enough, when I contacted my Belgian bank to use their Netbanking services instead of the windows homebanking software. I was told it would not work in Linux . I tried all the same: the process is this: you initiate a secure connection to their site, then you hace to download a 220k java program each time, insert a few passwords and codes, and you can go banking. Problem is, it is painfully slow, even on isdn, and Netscape freezes fairly regularly. So I was looking forward to testing Konqueror and Netscape 6. Well, both Konqueror and Netscape 6 freeze every time, and so are no help. So I guess I agree with the post that said that the linux browsing experience was still pretty miserable. Fx 1.not to mention OCR and accessing content CD's like encyclopedias. -- ______________________ Courtesy of SuSE Linux Kernel 2.2.17 (who Kares?)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:54:45 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Thomas <ethant@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011291053260.3061-100000@hominy.2fortheroad.net> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, fx Fraipont wrote:
So I guess I agree with the post that said that the linux browsing experience was still pretty miserable.
Yep, my wife has been bugging me to no end to install Win98 for her so she can use IE. Maybe I'll try vmware again. Greg
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:00:53 -0800 From: Ben Rosenberg <brosenb@suse.com> Message-ID: <20001129110053.B6281@suse.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery If you go to this address and download the new M18 build it should suit your needs quite well. I have been using it for sometime and it's very stable, it can use Netscape plugins and is fairly nice to look at. Give it a try. ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/egger/mozilla/mozilla-postM18-11.i386.rpm Regards, * Greg Thomas (ethant@pacificnet.net) [001129 10:49]: -**-On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, fx Fraipont wrote: -**- -**-> -**-> So I guess I agree with the post that said that the linux browsing -**-> experience was still pretty miserable. -**- -**-Yep, my wife has been bugging me to no end to install Win98 for her so she -**-can use IE. Maybe I'll try vmware again. -**- -**-Greg -**- -**- -**--- -**-To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com -**-For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com -**-Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq -**- -- Benjamin Rosenberg The Linux Experts :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SuSE Inc. Tel: +1-510-628-3380 ext:5086 580 Second St Suite 210 Fax: +1-510-835-3381 Suite 210 mailto:brosenb@suse.com Oakland CA 94607 U.S.A http://www.suse.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking. --LBJ "My opinions are not a reflection of the opinions of SuSE Inc."
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:18:06 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Thomas <ethant@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011291116050.3103-100000@hominy.2fortheroad.net> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
If you go to this address and download the new M18 build it should suit your needs quite well. I have been using it for sometime and it's very stable, it can use Netscape plugins and is fairly nice to look at. Give it a try.
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/egger/mozilla/mozilla-postM18-11.i386.rpm
Cool. When 6.0 works it works better than 4.76, particularly with Java, so I'd like to try M18 in the hopes it's a bit more stable. Greg
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:35:47 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Thomas <ethant@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011291335050.3103-100000@hominy.2fortheroad.net> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
If you go to this address and download the new M18 build it should suit your needs quite well. I have been using it for sometime and it's very stable, it can use Netscape plugins and is fairly nice to look at. Give it a try.
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/egger/mozilla/mozilla-postM18-11.i386.rpm
I get libIDL-0.6.so.0 is needed by mozilla. Where can I find this lib? Thanks, Greg
From: Niels Stenhoj <stenhoj@adr.dk> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:33:32 +0100 Message-Id: <00120117333201.01327@linux> Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, you wrote:
If you go to this address and download the new M18 build it should suit your needs quite well. I have been using it for sometime and it's very stable, it can use Netscape plugins and is fairly nice to look at. Give it a try.
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/egger/mozilla/mozilla-postM18-11.i386.rpm
You are right. This browser looks pretty much the way I expect However, the java is inadequate. Do I have to download and install the 'official' Netscape 6.0 to get the java on track. A friend urged me to visit a site he had created using some M$ HTML editor. No go in Mozilla and Konk. Netscape 4.74 was almost able to make it. A table and a chart that had been dragged and dropped from Excell were overlapping. It doesn't pay off to critisize the 'smart' guys who scientifically choose 'THE platform' for their own or customers' webpages. The Linux world is still too small to set the standard. So of course, it would be nice if someone could make some additional java available to fix this problem without including spy-ware. Cheers, Niels
From: Bernd Felsche <bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au> Message-Id: <200012020409.MAA17241@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:08:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: [SLE] The browser misery Niels Stenhoj tapped away at the keyboard with:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, you wrote:
If you go to this address and download the new M18 build it should suit your needs quite well. I have been using it for sometime and it's very stable, it can use Netscape plugins and is fairly nice to look at. Give it a try.
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/egger/mozilla/mozilla-postM18-11.i386.rpm
You are right. This browser looks pretty much the way I expect However, the java is inadequate. Do I have to download and install the 'official' Netscape 6.0 to get the java on track.
A friend urged me to visit a site he had created using some M$ HTML editor. No go in Mozilla and Konk. Netscape 4.74 was almost able to make it. A table and a chart that had been dragged and dropped from Excell were overlapping.
Turn off cascading style sheets in Netscape. The M$-HTML implementation is confusing Netscape. I suspect that as similar pages don't present properly in other non-Exploiter CSS-capable browsers, that the HTML is broken. There's simply too much crud in the HTML to validate by hand. Given past history, I'm tempted to believe that Exploiter has been designed around Exspell's broken export; instead of the W3 CSS spec. CSS authored by other means tends to present well enough. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! |
participants (7)
-
amircea＠libertysurf.fr -
bernie＠innovative.iinet.net.au -
brosenb＠suse.com -
ethant＠pacificnet.net -
fxf＠skynet.be -
sienix＠crosswinds.net -
stenhoj＠adr.dk