* C Hamel <vgm2@sc2000.net> [03-26-04 09:46]:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Friday 26 March 2004 07:18, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Anders Norrbring <anders@norrbring.biz> [03-26-04 03:48]:

...

I run SuSE Pro 9.0, all ntp default settings. In the ntp log, I constantly see this:

26 Mar 08:46:30 ntpd[12441]: can't open /var/lib/ntp/drift/ntp.drift.TEMP: No such file or directory

http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2003-Dec/0604.html

I read the file linked above and when I looked at my drift file I was intrigued by the fact that it contains only '0.000' and is the default file, apparently, since I only activated ntp the other day. I don't seem to be getting any errors but am not certain I'd know unless the kernel hit me up side the head & said, 'ERROR!!'. <LOL> - -- ...CH Avoid doing business with 'The Link' ISP. SuSE Is All U Need Linux user# 313696 Linux box# 199365 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFAZEIHamdq40EXXvQRAt+EAJ0SBe7nw2PxixApy/mcMr7gitqnhgCfZ/Se iZ+uC6SeyBtJueDzeRBZzzQ= =Jl0R -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

You have to start somewhere, ie: "it contains only '0.000' and is". -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711

On Tuesday 06 April 2004 21:49, Phil Mocek wrote:

It's disappointing that this bug was reported on a SuSE mailing list at least four months ago and they have not fixed it.

Have they even published the fact that this bug exists? How can I search their bug tracking database?

Actually, they have mentioned something on their site about this at: http://portal.suse.com/sdb/en/2004/02/pohletz_xntp_drift.html

Phil Mocek <pmocek-list-suse@mocek.org> [6 Apr 2004 23:51:59 -0700]:

1) How long does it usually take SuSE to put a trivial fix like this in place? The bug was reported at least four months ago, and they published a knowledge base article describing it two months ago.

Exactly *because* it's trivial and easily fixable by a user we won't issue an official update. Official updates are only issued for major and/or security bugs.

2) Does SuSE send out any type of notification to its customers when a bug such as this is identified? I realize the bug does not exactly constitute a security threat, but NTP is fairly important nonetheless, and accurate timestamps sure help with intrusion analysis.

By any means this isn't a security bug, therefor it won't get announced on the respective mailing list.

And I'm still wondering how to search the SuSE bug tracking database. Does anyone know?

You can't, it's not open to the public. Philipp -- Philipp Thomas work: pth AT suse DOT de SUSE LINUX AG private: philipp DOT thomas AT t-link DOT de

The Wednesday 2004-04-07 at 17:03 -0700, Phil Mocek wrote:

Does SuSE suggest the following practice?

1. Install software via official SuSE package (latest release) 2. ``See if it works'' 3. If not, search sdb, mailing lists, and the Web, for clues?

In my opinion, SuSE should clearly point users to look after install to a single web page - or better, a file downloaded through yast - reporting all known issues discovered since distribution release, maybe giving links to the appropiate sdb articles. Pretty often we see questions posted here by users that have just installed something and it fails somehow, and it is a known issue. A clearly, well known, site listing all of them (or a download of a file) would be very nice. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

I read the /usr/share/doc/packages/.../README.SuSE's And I'd like to add: I find it easy (with SuSE) to load software, I know nothing about, and to get it up and running. I realise that some applications can not be fully preconfigured. But all in all I think SuSE is doing a fantastic job a preconfiguring (literally) thousands of applications for me. GIve the SuSE team a real big "ATA-BOY", from me! Jerry On Thu, 2004-04-08 at 03:38, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Thursday 08 April 2004 03.28, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Pretty often we see questions posted here by users that have just installed something and it fails somehow, and it is a known issue. A clearly, well known, site listing all of them (or a download of a file) would be very nice.

Nice, but useless. The time you've spent on this list should have taught you that no one ever reads anything, ever. No FAQ, no support forum, no mail archives, ever (and yes, that includes me I'm sad to say :)

On 2004-04-08 03:38 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote, in regards to Carlos E. R.'s suggestion for a clear, well-known site detailing known issues for SuSE:

Nice, but useless. The time you've spent on this list should have taught you that no one ever reads anything, ever. No FAQ, no support forum, no mail archives, ever (and yes, that includes me I'm sad to say

On 2004-04-08 15:37 +0200, Carlos E. R. responded:

But "I" do...

And the vast majority of the rest of us do, as well. There will always be new users, many of whom come from a situation where the authors of their operating system keep information about it well-hidden, who don't even think to look for themselves before asking questions. We will continue to educate them even though a few of them will simply not listen. Carlos E. R. went on to suggest:

The YOU program knows what is installed; therefore, it could download a note of READMEs for installed packages with known issues since distribution date.

How about a Web page detailing a package with a link to bug information for that package? Then anyone could view this information before or after installation of the package, and if Yast Online Update needed to automatically display the information, it could either direct a Web browser there, or retrieve it directly internal display. For a *great* example of how this could work, take a look at <http://packages.debian.org/stable/net/ntp>. That page shows a description of Debian's package `ntp', along with package dependencies and recommendations, links to source code, package contents, changelog, package maintainer, past versions, and more. It's concise, accurate, and extremely informative. Most relevant to this discussion, though, (involving SuSE's insistence that unless their customers purchase a SLES support contract, we're on our own when it comes to discovering known issues with their software) is the link from the package page to that package's bug reports. That page is <http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=ntp>. This is all produced automatically, for every one of the 10,000 or so Debian packages, by Free Software. There's nothing preventing SuSE from using it for their own packages. I've grown accustomed to this level of detail (which is coming from an entirely volunteer-based organization), and am really disappointed to find that SuSE, a commercial distribution, refuses to provide it. -- Phil Mocek

On Fri, Apr 09, 2004 at 01:26:48AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Right. Even a simple page listing every package for a certain distribution that has issues, and pointing to the solution (or update) would be sufficient. The point is, that as YOU knows what is installed, it could generate a report automatically.

Do files in update/9.0/patches directory on your favorite mirror qualify for this role? Or better look at *.info files in update/9.0/rpm/i586 directory. Each updated rpm is accompanied by .info file with a short description what was changed/fixed/etc. Or use fou4s to see what updates are available. Honestly, I don't see any problem here, SUSE is not concealing any information. It's just a matter of looking in the right place. Regards, -Kastus

Op vrijdag 9 april 2004 22:10, schreef Phil Mocek:

No, at least not for the example at hand, which is xntp-4.1.1-291. At <ftp://mirrors.usc.edu/pub/linux/distributions/suse/i386/update/9.0/patches />, there is nothing about xntp.

For your information, a new xntp version has been released: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/freshrpms.html#suse90 Changelog says: * Don Apr 08 2004 - pth@suse.de - Correct symlink for the drift file packaged. - Make logging via syslog continue to work after changing the chroot jail. You can't say that they are not listening ;) -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless

* Richard Bos <radoeka@xs4all.nl> [04-09-04 15:18]:

For your information, a new xntp version has been released: http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/freshrpms.html#suse90

Changelog says: * Don Apr 08 2004 - pth@suse.de

but the rpm requires linux-gate.so.1 which I do not seem to be able to locate thru pin, google, rpmfind or rpmseek. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711

* Philipp Thomas <philipp.thomas@t-link.de> [04-09-04 20:42]:

Patrick Shanahan <paka@wahoo.no-ip.org> [9 Apr 2004 19:19:59]:

...

but the rpm requires linux-gate.so.1 which I do not seem to be able to locate thru pin, google, rpmfind or rpmseek.

Just ignore that, I have no idea where that dependency came from, but none of the binaries in the RPM need that library. So you can (and have to) install the package with --no-deps. I regret that, but I can only fix that when I'm back at work next week.

Thanks, I have updated. (probably should not have worried about it. I changed the simlink several months ago.) -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711

* Phil Mocek <pmocek-list-suse@mocek.org> [04-09-04 22:48]:

AND, it's not an official SuSE package. It's under .../suse90/people, which is (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) a place for contributions by SuSE people, that are not ``blessed'' by SuSE. It's certainly not published in a place I'd be looking for updates to software on any critical machine.

You would probably be happier with another distro. <hint> -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711

Phil Mocek <pmocek-list-suse@mocek.org> [Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:10]:

The fact that bug tracking information for official SuSE packages is unavailable, even to paid users of ``SuSE Professional'', makes it very hard for me to recommend this distribution for use in a production environment.

For use in a production environment SUSE offers the "SUSE Linux Enterprise Server" which is maintained for five years and for which you buy the maintenance on a yearly basis.

SuSE should look to Debian or the various BSDs for examples of quality packaging and package management.

Bad example. Debian and the BSDs rely on volunteers and aren't commercial distributions so they don't have to account for where they spend money. BTW, ftp.suse.com and its mirrors have update packages in /pub/people/pth/xntp/9.0 that have the symlink and another bug fixed. I put them on the staging server on thursday, so they should be publicly by now. And once again: if bugs are too minor to warrant an official update, a workaround is usually published in our support database which is open for everyone. And in my eyes that suffices. Philipp

On Fri, Apr 09, Phil Mocek wrote:

On Sat, Apr 10, 2004 at 03:42:52AM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

Phil Mocek <pmocek-list-suse@mocek.org> [Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:10]:

...

The fact that bug tracking information for official SuSE packages is unavailable, even to paid users of ``SuSE Professional'', makes it very hard for me to recommend this distribution for use in a production environment.

For use in a production environment SUSE offers the "SUSE Linux Enterprise Server" which is maintained for five years and for which you buy the maintenance on a yearly basis.

By ``production environment'', I mean, loosely, a situation in which downtime or decreased functionality costs a business money -- as opposed to computers I have at home for personal use or ones on which a business tests out new software in an appropriate sandbox. This could be, say, a desktop machine in someone's office, or maybe a server that handles SMTP and IMAP.

Are you saying that SuSE 9.0 Professional shouldn't be used in such a capacity? Isn't SLES the same thing with some extra software and a support contract?

No, it is not.

SLES starts out at what, $800 - $1000? What about those of us who don't need a support contract, but just reliable software and up-to-date documentation for it, including known problems with it?

Do you know how expensive it is to create up-to-date documentation for something with known problems? If you wish this, you have to pay for it.

...

Bad example. Debian and the BSDs rely on volunteers and aren't commercial distributions so they don't have to account for where they spend money.

No, I think anyone who has used them would agree that Debian's and the BSDs' package management systems and related documentation are *shining* examples of quality packaging and package management. Does anybody here disagree?

Yes, what does it help if you know there are about 10.000 open bugs, some of them are there since years, and nobody is looking at it? Thorsten -- Thorsten Kukuk http://www.suse.de/~kukuk/ kukuk@suse.de SuSE Linux AG Maxfeldstr. 5 D-90409 Nuernberg -------------------------------------------------------------------- Key fingerprint = A368 676B 5E1B 3E46 CFCE 2D97 F8FD 4E23 56C6 FB4B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 10 April 2004 02:44 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I have seen a similar page listing updates.

I'd be willing for this service to be open for registered users only, as another benefit for those of us that buy the package instead of ftping it for free.

-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

I wonder if it would be possible to implement a better system of binding a bug report, or workaround to a particular RPM with version, release, and date info included. I know it's very hard to get everything right when you're working under pressure to get the product shipped. One of the first things that is going to slip through the cracks is the documentation of known defects. If you have time to document the d@mn thing, you'd have time to fix it, right? Nonetheless, it might be helpful and not too difficult to set up a bit more sophisticated of a database. I'm not suggesting they try to address all the existing defect reports. I suspect many are OBE. But perhaps implementing a new procedure and database design for new issues would be appropriate. I hope no one takes my comments as blaming SuSE for not doing a good enough job. If I could do the job they do, I'd be selling distributions, not buying them. To address the OP's question about running in a production environment, SuSE Linux 9.0 Pro is at least as stable and reliable in a production environment as any OS you can buy from that company in Redmond WA. STH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAe0xFwX61+IL0QsMRAtPrAKDkCONZZZqYIukmLvWnktV+tYACEwCdE7Bc 6+4D4bVnaYkjqCYla/2vEM4= =hUqs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Folks,

...

I hope no one takes my comments as blaming SuSE for not doing a good enough job. If I could do the job they do, I'd be selling distributions, not buying them. To address the OP's question about running in a production environment, SuSE Linux 9.0 Pro is at least as stable and reliable in a production environment as any OS you can buy from that company in Redmond WA.

Just to finish it up, I concur completely, couldn't have said it better :-)

Well, I disagree -- about SuSE's PR and support for the English-language market. I've a little history here; I was a SuSE reseller and a SuSE Consulting Services client while such a division existed. SuSE's presense in the American, English, Australian etc. market has always been haphazard, poorly planned, and poorly supported. Mind you, that is par for the course; Red Hat has abandoned its desktop users, and Debian is frequently more concerned about license and procedural correctness than getting software out. So I'm not switching away from SuSE (yet) but I will certainly continue to complain. But, even when I was a licensed SuSE reseller, I could only access the list of known issues in German. Makes me realize how the rest of the world feels about English! But it made it impossible for me to commercially support clients running SuSE, since when they encountered a distribution issue I knew no more about it than they did. I quit and started suggesting that my clients buy RHES on supported hardware. Hopefully Novell will cure this. Novell has a history of reseller support that I hope they bring to SuSE. In the meantime, there are some easy, cheap things that SuSE could do to improve their online support for English-speaking users (and other languages as well!): 1) add a search engine for the mailing list archives 2) open up the SDB so that volunteers can translate issues from German (and provide some infrastructure to support this) 3) support bug reporting (ala bugzilla, though hopefully using something else, like RT, Jira or Roundup) by the community. 4) put a paid employee on this list to respond to questions and comments that don't get fielded peer-to-peer. If a tiny company like Win4Lin can do it, so can SuSE. None of the above would cost very much and would make a world of difference to SuSE users in the US. If all-volunteer OSS projects can do it (and they do!) then certainly a capitalized company like SuSE can do it. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco

chris h said:

On April 14, 2004 12:35 pm, Josh Berkus wrote:

Greetings Josh

...

1) add a search engine for the mailing list archives

See Togans Unofficial SuSE FAQ on this point. http://susefaq.sourceforge.net/

The real reason, not stated in that FAQ is that they are running ezmlm. Our user group runs ezmlm and is consdering changing for this very reason. There is not a really good or useful way to search ezmlm archives. -- Neil Schneider pacneil_at_linuxgeek_dot_net http://www.paccomp.com Key fingerprint = 67F0 E493 FCC0 0A8C 769B 8209 32D7 1DB1 8460 C47D Fires can't be made with dead embers, nor can enthusiasm be stirred by spiritless men. Enthusiasm in our daily work lightens effort and turns even labor into pleasant tasks. --James Baldwin

On Monday 19 April 2004 19:43, Neal haas wrote:

Or is there somthing better that we are not thinking of...

Who is we? And just what is it that you want to know? Who has been makeing demands for any changes? -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

The Wednesday 2004-04-14 at 09:35 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

Hopefully Novell will cure this. Novell has a history of reseller support that I hope they bring to SuSE.

I have never been a reseller, but I feel you may be right.

In the meantime, there are some easy, cheap things that SuSE could do to improve their online support for English-speaking users (and other languages as well!):

[ long ] I have two contrasting experiences; first the bad one. Remember SuSE 7.3? I bought the professional version, which I still have installed on my old computer. I was nicely surprised at the quality of the translation of the paper manuals to Spanish (previously I had bought the international version, which was cheaper). However, when I looked at the files of the same books, instead of Spanish, they were in German! It was funny, the headers for the html pages (next, previous, etc) were in Spanish; but the text itself, was in German. The same happened to the french version; and not only one book, but several: network_es, network_fr, qapl_fr, qconfig_es, qconfig_fr, suselinux-reference_es.rpm, suselinux-reference_fr.rpm... Support? Not covered by the free installation support. Feedback? It is unidirectional, no answer. Symposiums? Surprised face of the seller/reseller whoever. "I'll look it up; how can I contact you" - I'm still waiting, two years later... Nobody knows. Why was this never corrected? The files got a patch, because the pdf version was faulty: but I never saw the translation. Now the second experience, the good one. I bought SuSE 7.1 direct from SuSE, web form, express delivery, however it was called. At the time I was mostly at home, a training period for my company, a big one then; so I gave my home address. It seems there was a delay on the SuSE side of the delivery, about two weeks, because they were moving or something. They didn't email me warning of the delay. When the delivery man (UPS, I think) got to my home, I wasn't there, because my two weeks "strange hours job" had finished, and I wasn't there. He went away without even dropping a note at the mail box, and repeated the same procedure three days, finally returning the box to Germany! Flummoxed, knowing nothing (+/- three weeks "express" delivery"), I email (second time?). They responded immediately phoning me! I was astonished, an international phone call is expensive in Europe. They explained, resent. I emailed asking who was the delivery agent, and the expedition code, so that I could check on my end. I got the answer the next day, and when at the evening I went to the dispatch yard, the delivery man had already done the same thing two days again! Things explained, the chap in charge there is surprised that no note was left at my home, and offers to resend next morning to my job instead - I accept, and duly I get the box, with a nice T-shirt as a present. Very nice, I'm happy again :-) SuSE did their job - but late -, even phoned me twice - even if an email would have worked just as well. They failed at not giving an expedition date, company and code, so that the receiving end can be prepared. The "bad guys" were the transport agent people, who expecting a business address neglected to leave a "we have been here" note, or tried to contact me some other way (SuSE had my phone, for example). So... I'm aware they try to do their job as best as they can: I'm convinced of that, no doubt whatsoever. However, I would like perfection, and they have glitches and misperceptions (IMO)... specially where attention to the client should be. Because I buy a "Professional" version, I expect a bit of "professional" attention - else I would be buying a "Personal" version, or simply getting it by ftp somehow. Or they should rename it as "Home" version: but then it would be too expensive. The answer that "you should buy a business version" is not valid for me, I don't want that much attention or hand holding, nor that cost: something intermediate. But I would expect that reported bugs on a professional version be corrected, without waiting for the next version - for paying customers, of course: that's what I am. I would expect feedback to be bidirectional for us as well, just a "working on it/can't do/already solved" brief note. Or a biaxial thing, whatever. A simple list of known bugs/problem detected for packages - they surely have it, but private - would be terribly nice. As I said: what do I get for buying it that I couldn't get it by ftping? Install support (almost useless to me), very nice books, DVD/CDs, some commercial packages... yes, ok, fine. But I would like a bit more inexpensive "attention to customers", which in my part of the world is taken as granted when you name something as "professional".

1) add a search engine for the mailing list archives 2) open up the SDB so that volunteers can translate issues from German (and provide some infrastructure to support this)

Mmmm, that should be "payed". Mind, you haven't compared the English version to the Spanish, ein? You don't know what you have got :-p

3) support bug reporting (ala bugzilla, though hopefully using something else, like RT, Jira or Roundup) by the community.

Yes.

4) put a paid employee on this list to respond to questions and comments that don't get fielded peer-to-peer. If a tiny company like Win4Lin can do it, so can SuSE.

Yes! Well... looking at it from their side, that would be "support", and they want to get payed for it, and that is understandable. But I would like them to read the list "officially", because it is a magnificent feedback source. And answers questions like those we are posting on this thread. A "public relations" chap. And if a bug is reported, take note of it, don't wait for an "official" report to "feedback".

None of the above would cost very much and would make a world of difference to SuSE users in the US. If all-volunteer OSS projects can do it (and they do!) then certainly a capitalized company like SuSE can do it.

And outside of the US. I know the Spanish chap (R. Griman) is doing a good job, he has a better knowledge of the Spanish market. He has even asked us, on list, for feedback! :-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Philipp Thomas wrote:

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> [14 Apr 2004 09:35:38 -0700]:

...

If all-volunteer OSS projects can do it (and they do!) then certainly a capitalized company like SuSE can do it.

That comparison is invalid. Volunteers do it for free, employees get paid for their work and the salary has to be accounted for, i.e. the margin of the normal distribution has to pay for any work put into it.

Not entirely invalid. In the longer term a company may also have to account for the loss of revenue from those who bought another distribution instead because the competitor's support seemed more attractive, for whatever reason. That loss could end up severe even if it can never be fully quantified. Just my 2 cents but I wish SuSE had a web bbs forum instead of or in addition to a mailing list. Maybe it's been considered and discarded for good reasons, but a web forum seems friendlier and gives the impression of "the joint is jumping" to visitors and potential purchasers. It may also be what more folks expect these days and they may think it strange when there isn't one. A pretty darn large amount of information is readily available on web forums run by other distros ... :) Fish

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 22.53, Mark wrote:

Just my 2 cents but I wish SuSE had a web bbs forum instead of or in addition to a mailing list. Maybe it's been considered and discarded for good reasons, but a web forum seems friendlier and gives the impression of "the joint is jumping" to visitors and potential purchasers.

Good grief no. Web forums are horrible in comparison to a mailing list. Much worse search capabilities, you have to sit and hit 'refresh' to see if there are any replies, no decent way of filtering and just generally 'no thanks'

Anders,

Good grief no. Web forums are horrible in comparison to a mailing list. Much worse search capabilities, you have to sit and hit 'refresh' to see if there are any replies, no decent way of filtering and just generally 'no thanks'

Not worse than *this* mailing list. Somewhere there must be some combined Web-forum-and-mail-list tool. I'd kinda prefer a forum, just becuase the traffic on this list is so high. I think a lot of AOL or yahoo account people are kept off this list becuase of the traffic volume. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 23.32, Josh Berkus wrote:

...

Good grief no. Web forums are horrible in comparison to a mailing list. Much worse search capabilities, you have to sit and hit 'refresh' to see if there are any replies, no decent way of filtering and just generally 'no thanks'

Not worse than *this* mailing list.

explain?

Somewhere there must be some combined Web-forum-and-mail-list tool. I'd kinda prefer a forum, just becuase the traffic on this list is so high. I think a lot of AOL or yahoo account people are kept off this list becuase of the traffic volume.

Then they should learn about filtering. I once had occasion to actually see in person someone who complained about the high volume. It turned out that he put all his mail in the inbox, he had no clue that he could create folders and automatically filter list mail into them. No wonder it got to be too much. If I had dumped everything into the inbox, I'd be crying like a baby after a week. Education is the key. Teach them the better way to work.

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 23.52, Josh Berkus wrote:

There is NO search tool for the mailing list archives. Other than maybe Google, which tends to be kinda spotty.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com

I am filtering this all to a folder, and it's still too darned much ... > 70 messages a day.

Only 70? It's calmed down then

Damon.

What I don't understand is why not use nntp instead of e-mail. IMHO it seems that this provides the best of both worlds. Now I am not suggesting the traditional usenet group but something like what Borland uses for their groups. Borland runs their own nntp server that isn't part of the rest of the usenet world. There is not that high noise level that plagues the rest of usenet.

This is a very good idea. Google is also quite good at indexing NNTP. What I'm suggesting is that we need a place where users with occasional problems, and a 2mb mailbox, can visit to a) search for posted solutions, and b) post a question without committing themselves to 400 e-mails a week. An NNTP hosted by SuSE would be an excelent fit to that. There are already NNTP-to-Mailing list crossover software (we use them on PostgreSQL all the time) and NNTP-to-Web readers for those poor Comcast subscribers with no NNTP support. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco

Josh Berkus wrote:

Anders,

...

explain?

There is NO search tool for the mailing list archives. Other than maybe Google, which tends to be kinda spotty.

<snip> There are several ways to search the archives. The one I use is: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=suse-linux-e

<snip>

Which is a shame, since I have enough experience to help some people. But I can't waste time deleting dozens of messages a day to do it.

And, what if they joined this list to ask for help about filtering? Or if they're on a dial-up connection, where each e-mail takes 30 seconds to download?

I like the high volume. It means a better chance of getting not just a response, but a solution. I used the searches for this list for some time before actualy joining in. -- Louis D. Richards LDR Interactive Technologies

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 23:52, Josh Berkus wrote:

Anders,

...

explain?

There is NO search tool for the mailing list archives. Other than maybe Google, which tends to be kinda spotty.

Typing lists site:lists.suse.com topic into google, where "topic" is whatever you're searching for, works as well as using my mail client's search function to seach through my suse-linux-e mail folder.

And, what if they joined this list to ask for help about filtering? Or if they're on a dial-up connection, where each e-mail takes 30 seconds to download?

So how is it going to be faster if it's web based? It takes me five minutes to download all my mail (which contains this list and a few which make this one appear low volume), run it through my virus checker and spamassassin. Then I can disconnect and read it at my leisure. If it's web based, I *have* to stay online to read the mail and reply to it - which costs money in just about every country outside of the US. And for what it's worth, you _can_ read all the posts online at http://lists.suse.de/ Hans

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 23:32, Josh Berkus wrote:

Somewhere there must be some combined Web-forum-and-mail-list tool. I'd kinda prefer a forum, just becuase the traffic on this list is so high. I think a lot of AOL or yahoo account people are kept off this list becuase of the traffic volume. So how is handling the volume going to be easier if it's a web based forum? It's going to be a lot slower, and you won't be able to delete posts you don't want to read - they'll always sit there, every time you go back to refer to something or search for something.

And what about the people on this list who don't have 24/7 internet? If I have to read this list through a web based forum on my dial-up (which is charged for by the telecom by the minute) I could just as well buy the Professional Desktop or SLES and get the support with it - won't cost much more. Hans

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 10:16 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 22.53, Mark wrote:

...

Just my 2 cents but I wish SuSE had a web bbs forum instead of or in addition to a mailing list. Maybe it's been considered and discarded for good reasons, but a web forum seems friendlier and gives the impression of "the joint is jumping" to visitors and potential purchasers.

Good grief no. Web forums are horrible in comparison to a mailing list. Much worse search capabilities, you have to sit and hit 'refresh' to see if there are any replies, no decent way of filtering and just generally 'no thanks'

I agree with Anders. With only a dial-up connection, they are very slow, very cumbersome, and far less flexible than a mailing list. Because I find them so frustratingly slow, I rarely use them. No thanks! Let's keep to the mailing list. Cheers Keith

terrific rant, I take my hat off to you (not a red hat). you really think the world of business is ready for debian?? <<gonna be on sabbatical support-desk wise>> 8) Jake

On April 14, 2004 06:34 pm, Phil Mocek wrote:

On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 09:53:06PM +0100, Mark wrote:

...

In the longer term a company may also have to account for the loss of revenue from those who bought another distribution instead because the competitor's support seemed more attractive, for whatever reason.

Or, leaving support out of it, they need to consider loss of revenue from those who decided to use a different distribution because a competitor's documentation or simply the quality of their packaging, seemed more attractive.

Discussion on this thread seems to repeatedly confuse support with the publication of documentation. With thorough, quality, documentation, you don't need support unless you haven't the time to read documentation or are lacking the skills to understand it.

Well from this end the docs have never been an issue as IMHO SuSE has always shipped with the best manuals and collection of docs/man pages etc etc in comparison to everyone else. Where my complain (if you call it that) is with the online stuff, which could be improved.

...

That loss could end up severe even if it can never be fully quantified.

Definitely. In my case, I recommended SuSE for use by a client who was rebuilding a previously-Windows-NT box and purchasing a new one, mainly because of the fact that on their short list of Linux distributions (Debian, Mandrake, and SuSE) only SuSE is officially supported by the bulk of third-party software publishers. This client only has a couple of machines now, but that number is likely to grow. The closest they come to the need for support right now is when they have questions about broken software that is not documented, or questions about ``the SuSE way'' of doing something that is not documented. They were happy to buy the SuSE Professional 9.0 retail box, rather than just installing from the 'net, to throw some cash at the people behind the product.

This list, though, has made it pretty clear that SuSE Linux Professional, unfortunately, is really not intended for professional use. This is not to say it isn't a great distribution for some purposes, but even the simple fact that there is no changelog for SuSE packages makes it unsuitable for many business purposes. It would be irresponsible for me to go installing an upgraded package without knowing what has changed, since the last release, or install a package knowing that the author may be aware of problems but is unwilling to share that knowledge.

Given the fact that the closest SuSE comes to publishing known issues for their software (and ``their software'' consists primarily of their installer, a custom-compiled Linux kernel, YaST/SuSEconfig, and their SuSE-fied repackaging of software written/maintained by GNU and others) is the SDB, a big list of symptoms and suggested remedies without any direct link to the individual packages that comprise SuSE Linux, I just can't imagine using SuSE for anything besides, say, a home machine on which I want to just install the whole ball o' wax and leave it alone until the next major distro version is released.

see the security lists available from SuSE. I think this will alleviate your concerns.

That policy doesn't work well when you want to tighten security by installing the minimum set of software that meets your needs, and then install additional packages as needed in the future.

You can override everything in yast, even the minimal install set. At one time this was approx 60-80 megs of software. This basic distro is not available any more as a preset, however can easily be accomplished in yast by being selective and knowing what you are doing. Also remember, that SuSE has a complete produce range with standard and pro being based on SuSE gpl (inhouse) code and server products being based on former United Linux core. Hence you will see a lot or product differentiation.

Remember, a Linux distribution like SuSE, Mandrake, Red Hat, or Debian, is a bunch of individual packages that are individually maintained and can be individually installed or removed. This idea is foreign to many people because Windows isn't done that way. It's good, though, because it allows you a great deal of freedom in just how lean or full-featured your installation will be. With a good package management system, package installation, upgrade, and removal are no-brainers.

Yes while true, a distro is not simply a collection of tools and utilities. Its much much more. Not going to explain that either as it would take to long. Lets just say that if it were that simple, then everyone's product would be more or less equal and or there would be a multitude of distro's out there. Since this is not the case, it safe to say that your initial presupposition is not quite correct. All for now..:) /ch

*** Reply to message from Anders Johansson <andjoh@rydsbo.net> on Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:57:36 +0200***

"They don't have documentation, so I have to install everything"? Hm

okay, now I'm going totally blonde ... this conversation is confusing the heck outof me... And I thouroughly agree w/ Anders "hm" !! In spades..

...

Discussion on this thread seems to repeatedly confuse support with the publication of documentation. With thorough, quality, documentation, you don't need support unless you haven't the time to read documentation or are lacking the skills to understand it.

Which is what happens to a lot of newbies, and they are inundated w/ information they can't absorb as quickly as we throw at them.. so on occassion, must be led by the hand to get past something. My husband, who is not what anyone would call a geek.. tho he is learning ( Geek in Training, somehow comes out to a none too flattering accronym (G) ) He has learned to look up things, he's even learning the varieties of googling ( froogle, news etc. ) But ... he like a lot of folks tends to look at something he doesn't have a gestalt moment w/ and completely panic... and I can guaranty you he will need heavy duty support until he is past the panic. It's the same thing that happens to some kids in schools, really smart, even know all the material and can put it to new uses ... BUT, come test time, they look at the paper and go completely blank, then they go ballistic... and that takes a lot of retraining to get rid of. And FWIW he is now doing something he never would have thought of doing a fw months, let alone years ago... he is putting my computers componants into my nice lovely Aluminum case ... which is now proudly wearing a Suse enamaled case badge , from the earlly days, when tech companies could afford nice little goodies like that! So a little hand holding now and then can get folks past the panic, and sooner or later they realise how much they really do understand. OF course we do still have to get past what is being pounded into the heads of so many these days. Linux is too hard for you to use, it's for Government, colleges, big companies ( we can only hope) you're an idiot when it comes to computers, better stick to Windows, at least you can get your email all the time ( say what?) ( I can't imagine why anyone would tell a person that sort of thing? But they do. (sneaky smile) ) oth, I have never called tech support for install support either... but I usually buy the box w/ those hefty text books in 'em. Can't say I can get anyone other than myself to actually READ them... but that is another story..

...

That policy doesn't work well when you want to tighten security by installing the minimum set of software that meets your needs, and then install additional packages as needed in the future.

Isn't that what you do now? look in hte /usr/share/doc/packages , or even in the Admin book they have on the disks ( isn't it installed as part of the defualt pkg? ) Along w/ all the documentation you could want... when you do your install, take a lok at the documentation that is included and install it! There is a heck of a lot of it... -- j -- nemo me impune lacessit

The Friday 2004-04-09 at 12:27 -0700, Kastus wrote:

Do files in update/9.0/patches directory on your favorite mirror qualify for this role?

No, they don't! I'm sorry to say that seems to me you have not read what we were discussing about before saying what you have you said. We were talking about lack of information about problems or bugs for which SuSE has not made a patch available, not those for which there is a patch. Sometimes they are reported here, sometimes there is a report in the SDB - like the ntp problem that started this thread - but there is not a list of known problems for each distro that you can check when installing (during at least its two year lifespan) for problems you should be aware of and correct manually or automatically - and those needing manual action are the most important, the automatics are done by YOU already. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The Friday 2004-04-09 at 18:08 -0700, Kastus wrote:

...

We were talking about lack of information about problems or bugs for which SuSE has not made a patch available, not those for which there is a patch.

I'd rather prefer SuSE folks spending their time on fixing the bugs than talking about the ways they gonna do that.

That's not what we ask for.

...

Sometimes they are reported here, sometimes there is a report in the SDB - like the ntp problem that started this thread - but there is not a list of known problems for each distro that you can check when installing (during at least its two year lifespan) for problems you should be aware of and correct manually or automatically - and those needing manual action are the most important, the automatics are done by YOU already.

I am not sure I understand what you are asking for.

That I can see.

If I install some package all I'm getting is the files from that package, it cannot provide information from the future (in case something becomes known after the package was created).

Say, some bug is discovered in a package, then a patch package released to fix the bug, and that package will provide reasonable explanations.

Wrong. Read again - and we were not talking about "future bugs": |>From: Philipp Thomas |>... |>The bug *is* fixed, it just won't get issued as an official update. But |>if a serious bug is discovered and therefor an update issued, it will |>contain the fix for a minor bug. See? There is no patch for that bug - well, wasn't, it has been released now, after months of been reported. I don't have a complaint with that, not much: because that is the known SuSE policy that only promises security patches.

YOU is the mechanism which is supposed to keep your system without problems. I believe it is more reliable than manually looking through some document, figuring out what is relevant to my system and what is not.

You don't understand the problem. YOU only patches _security_ related bugs, not the rest. The rest usually get no patches. We were talking about those bugs for which YOU does nothing - but the problem and the solution is known. There are only (sometimes) report on this list and the SDB. And that is what happened with ntp. There was a bug reported here four months ago and there was no patch released, because it was considered unimportant, and it was not a security risk. There was only a note in the SDB - where you can only discover it if you are searching for a problem with ntp, because you have discovered yourself there is a problem with ntp. The patch has been produced recently - as reported on this thread - maybe because we were talking about it, or maybe because it was due for other reasons. No complaints with that, we know that SuSE does a good job, and that they listen when they can. What we are asking for is: A list of those problems known but not solved by YOU yet, and the solution if known - and in the case of ntp, it was known: only a pointer to the SDB article was needed on an index of known bugs. In other words: at list a web page listing known problems with links to their solution, for any problem not solved by a YOU update - one web page per version of the distro would be fine. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The Saturday 2004-04-10 at 11:16 -0700, Kastus wrote:

...

A list of those problems known but not solved by YOU yet, and the solution if known - and in the case of ntp, it was known: only a pointer to the SDB article was needed on an index of known bugs.

You have two choices with your request:

- pay for it and get SLES maintenance

I think that what I pay for the standard PROFESSIONAL version (mind: the name is not HOME version) should be sufficient.

- create a list of pointers into SDB yourself.

When Togan decided he needed a SuSE FAQ, he just sat and created an Unofficial SuSE FAQ. If you really need that kind of document, why don't you volunteer to create it?

For one reason: I don't have that information. You do, however... As a matter of fact, I collaborate in my own way. You can check for your self how active I am here helping people (over three thousand messages last year, to save your time checking it). Some of the articles and howtos on Togan FAQ are mine. I'm also a participant of the group that is translating Togan's susefirewall2 guide to Spanish. What else would you have me doing, for free, ein? You are not being fair with me, I think... -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

On Sat, Apr 10, 2004 at 09:42:03PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I think that what I pay for the standard PROFESSIONAL version (mind: the name is not HOME version) should be sufficient.

PROFESSIONAL version includes installation support only. Period. This has been beaten to death already. Maintenance comes with SLES only. Maintenance is not free. Is it so hard to understand?

For one reason: I don't have that information. You do, however...

I have the same access to SDB as you do, I am not even a beta tester. Regards, -Kastus

Phil Mocek <pmocek-list-suse@mocek.org> [7 Apr 2004 17:03:21 -0700]: First of all, please *don't* send an unnecessary extra copy of your mail directly to me. I do read the list so such mails are totally unnecessary.

So if it's a ``minor bug'', (e.g., ``NTP doesn't work but can be easily fixed''),

NTP *does* work! It's just that it can't open the drift file and thus can't record the drift of the PC clock and will therefor begin it's drift cycle the next time you start it.

SuSE leaves it up to the customer to discover the bug post-installation, search for SuSE's description of the problem and fix or workaround, then (in this case) go into the filesystem and make the change, outside of package management

Yes, the SUSE Linux customer has to search the support database. Customers who bought SLES and the maintenance available for it do get directly informed when updates are available for them.

and with no guarantee that the change won't be wiped out by RPM with the next upgrade of the package?

The bug *is* fixed, it just won't get issued as an official update. But if a serious bug is discovered and therefor an update issued, it will contain the fix for a minor bug.

Yes, but would it be announced at all? If so, where would a new customer find archives of past announcements?

For security? The SUSE web site. For normal bug fixes there isn't an official announcement, only buyers of the business products get additional information.

site) discover that the latest release is currently broken,

It has a bug, it isn't broken.

1. Install software via official SuSE package (latest release) 2. ``See if it works'' 3. If not, search sdb, mailing lists, and the Web, for clues?

If it's a major and or security bug, an update is available, so just start YOU and fetch them. Otherwise it *always* pays top monitor and search the SDB. Philipp