[opensuse] Oracle to bill Windows Java users. Are Linux users next?

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Anton Aylward

23 Dec 2016 23 Dec '16

13:17

I came across this http://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-starts-to-audit-java-customers-2016-12 and I find it rather disturbing. I'm glad I'm a Linux user :-) Are there FOSS 'installers' for Java and Windows? Well, actually, even as a Linux user I'm nervous, since I get the Java Runtime from Oracle. They could turn around and charge for that. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Glenn Holmer

23 Dec 23 Dec

16:12

On 12/23/2016 07:17 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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I came across this

http://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-starts-to-audit-java-customers-2016-12

and I find it rather disturbing. I'm glad I'm a Linux user :-)

Are there FOSS 'installers' for Java and Windows?

Well, actually, even as a Linux user I'm nervous, since I get the Java Runtime from Oracle. They could turn around and charge for that.

The audits are for people using the "advanced" features of Java SE: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/overview/faqs-jsp-136696.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/products/index.html The installer referred to is the "Microsoft Windows Installer (MSI) Enterprise JRE Installer" [sic], used for rolling out the JRE in large enterprise environments. You don't need an installer to run Oracle Java on Linux, you can just download it, unzip it somewhere convenient, and set your path accordingly. Of course, you can always run OpenJDK if you're still nervous; it's included in most Linux distros. http://openjdk.java.net/ -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2016-12-23 17:12, Glenn Holmer wrote:

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On 12/23/2016 07:17 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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The installer referred to is the "Microsoft Windows Installer (MSI) Enterprise JRE Installer" [sic], used for rolling out the JRE in large enterprise environments.

Then it does not affect us.

...

You don't need an installer to run Oracle Java on Linux, you can just download it, unzip it somewhere convenient, and set your path accordingly. Of course, you can always run OpenJDK if you're still nervous; it's included in most Linux distros.

Unfortunately there are applications that fail without the oracle java, and some that specify it in the requirements. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlhdfNAACgkQja8UbcUWM1xhigD+Mpg30yGA+RoL3ko3lPKgnKQ6 4obfIpLoshbQO4FSFbkA/1L8vaUKi18VrxCf4u0SqdjsFmaXsvogdCPIdKU3+3up =zo0M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

19:47

On 12/23/2016 02:36 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2016-12-23 17:12, Glenn Holmer wrote:

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On 12/23/2016 07:17 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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The installer referred to is the "Microsoft Windows Installer (MSI) Enterprise JRE Installer" [sic], used for rolling out the JRE in large enterprise environments.

Then it does not affect us.

Not right now, but, as I say, Oracle could put a licence requirement into the code at some time in the future.

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Unfortunately there are applications that fail without the oracle java, and some that specify it in the requirements.

Perhaps the packagers could uncouple that requirement? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:45

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2016-12-23 20:47, Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 12/23/2016 02:36 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2016-12-23 17:12, Glenn Holmer wrote:

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On 12/23/2016 07:17 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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The installer referred to is the "Microsoft Windows Installer (MSI) Enterprise JRE Installer" [sic], used for rolling out the JRE in large enterprise environments.

Then it does not affect us.

Not right now, but, as I say, Oracle could put a licence requirement into the code at some time in the future.

Somehow I doubt it.

...

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Unfortunately there are applications that fail without the oracle java, and some that specify it in the requirements.

Perhaps the packagers could uncouple that requirement?

Not the packagers, but the developers of the applications, who don't have Linux as the main goal. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlhdmugACgkQja8UbcUWM1xlxAEAiZUjw+V4JlqbFcW1RU4aCfiY dhrnU2RcJ4iIMSUa34YA/io1cmf+ahr3hfcV/u1854H4b4diSsdEUMyuBrVAx0w6 =4lqo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christopher Myers

3 Jan 3 Jan

14:47

I was digging into this a month or so ago, and found this in the JDK license agreement :: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html "General Purpose Desktop Computers and Servers" means computers, including desktop and laptop computers, or servers, used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools). The use of Software in systems and solutions that provide dedicated functionality (other than as mentioned above) or designed for use in embedded or function-specific software applications, for example but not limited to: Software embedded in or bundled with industrial control systems, wireless mobile telephones, wireless handheld devices, kiosks, TV/STB, Blu-ray Disc devices, telematics and network control switching equipment, printers and storage management systems, and other related systems are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement. With that verbiage, I don't see something like a Tomcat server being a "computer .... used for general computing functions" as defined in teh license agreement. As such, since they would be "systems and solutions that provide dedicated functionality (other than as mentioned above)" they would be "excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement." Which, knowing Oracle, is definitely gray enough for them to be able to say "you owe us a ton of money." Thoughts...??? I haven't been able to get a concrete answer about that part... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ArnoB

5 Jan 5 Jan

11:09

On 03-01-17 15:47, Christopher Myers wrote:

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I was digging into this a month or so ago, and found this in the JDK license agreement :: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html

"General Purpose Desktop Computers and Servers" means computers, including desktop and laptop computers, or servers, used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools). The use of Software in systems and solutions that provide dedicated functionality (other than as mentioned above) or designed for use in embedded or function-specific software applications, for example but not limited to: Software embedded in or bundled with industrial control systems, wireless mobile telephones, wireless handheld devices, kiosks, TV/STB, Blu-ray Disc devices, telematics and network control switching equipment, printers and storage management systems, and other related systems are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement.

With that verbiage, I don't see something like a Tomcat server being a "computer .... used for general computing functions" as defined in teh license agreement. As such, since they would be "systems and solutions that provide dedicated functionality (other than as mentioned above)" they would be "excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement."

Which, knowing Oracle, is definitely gray enough for them to be able to say "you owe us a ton of money."

Thoughts...??? I haven't been able to get a concrete answer about that part...

Hey Chris, Why do you think Tomcat is a computer/server? Tomcat uses Java that runs on a system, not the other way around... or am I not getting it? cheers Arno -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christopher Myers

13:32

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ArnoB 01/05/17 5:10 AM >>>

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Why do you think Tomcat is a computer/server?

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Tomcat uses Java that runs on a system, not the other way around... or am I not getting it?

My concern is that since Tomcat (and other purpose-built servers) aren't servers "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)." So it sounds like the clause "are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement" will apply to them -- "this agreement" being the "install and use it for free" part. Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ArnoB

14:30

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Why do you think Tomcat is a computer/server? Tomcat uses Java that runs on a system, not the other way around... or am I not getting it?

My concern is that since Tomcat (and other purpose-built servers) aren't servers "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)."

So it sounds like the clause "are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement" will apply to them -- "this agreement" being the "install and use it for free" part.

Chris

But ehm, Tomcat is software and I think they're talking about hardware...? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christopher Myers

14:50

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ArnoB 01/05/17 8:31 AM >>>

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Why do you think Tomcat is a computer/server? Tomcat uses Java that runs on a system, not the other way around... or am I not getting it?

My concern is that since Tomcat (and other purpose-built servers) aren't servers "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)."

So it sounds like the clause "are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement" will apply to them -- "this agreement" being the "install and use it for free" part.

Chris

But ehm, Tomcat is software and I think they're talking about hardware...?

...

From how I read it, it's more of them talking about where it's installed and what it's used for, hence the "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)." part.

So, Tomcat (or Jira, or whatever) installed on an application server isn't the same thing as me putting Java on my laptop -- my use of Java on my laptop would be for normal desktop-type stuff, while Tomcat's use of Java on a server would not be. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ArnoB

15:18

On 05-01-17 15:50, Christopher Myers wrote:

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ArnoB 01/05/17 8:31 AM >>> Why do you think Tomcat is a computer/server? Tomcat uses Java that runs on a system, not the other way around... or am I not getting it? My concern is that since Tomcat (and other purpose-built servers) aren't servers "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)."

So it sounds like the clause "are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement" will apply to them -- "this agreement" being the "install and use it for free" part.

Chris

But ehm, Tomcat is software and I think they're talking about hardware...? From how I read it, it's more of them talking about where it's installed and what it's used for, hence the "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)." part.

So, Tomcat (or Jira, or whatever) installed on an application server isn't the same thing as me putting Java on my laptop -- my use of Java on my laptop would be for normal desktop-type stuff, while Tomcat's use of Java on a server would not be.

Hi Chris, I'm sorry but I really think you're mixing things up here... Oracle is talking about Java (JVM) and it's tools like JDK etc. They say on which hardware you can run them, desktops, laptops or servers. Tomcat runs in the JVM, so it's at a level that Oracle has nothing to say about unless they want to preventing their software being used at all. HIGH MID LOW Tomcat -> JVM -> Hardware & OS Apache Oracle Win/*nix As far as I read it, I'm not a lawyer, they're talking about the options for MID -> LOW. Tomcat is server-SOFTWARE, a general purpose server is server-HARDWARE. In any case, you can always choose OpenJDK etc... gr arno -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Stanislav Baiduzhyi

7 Jan 7 Jan

15:52

We discussed that in the office (heavy Java development) just a couple of days ago, at least so far it seems that Oracle is going for software they inherited from BEA, what they could salvage off JRockit. See this readme: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html it refers to table 1-1 in the following doc: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/products/index.html Those are not generally available tools as far as I can see, it is possible that someone could install them out of ignorance or by mistake, or maybe if you are using only some parts and they come as big download bundle. But normal JDK/JRE even for windows should not be affected as far as I understand. Haven't looked into JavaFX though, don't see any point in it. As for openSUSE, OpenJDK builds are not affected, and binary redistribution is already forbidden by Oracle, so this should not be a problem. On 5 January 2017 at 16:18, ArnoB wrote:

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On 05-01-17 15:50, Christopher Myers wrote:

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ArnoB 01/05/17 8:31 AM >>> Why do you think Tomcat is a computer/server? Tomcat uses Java that runs on a system, not the other way around... or am I not getting it?

My concern is that since Tomcat (and other purpose-built servers) aren't servers "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)."

So it sounds like the clause "are excluded from this definition and not licensed under this Agreement" will apply to them -- "this agreement" being the "install and use it for free" part.

Chris

But ehm, Tomcat is software and I think they're talking about hardware...?

...
From how I read it, it's more of them talking about where it's installed and what it's used for, hence the "used for general computing functions under end user control (such as but not specifically limited to email, general purpose Internet browsing, and office suite productivity tools)." part.

So, Tomcat (or Jira, or whatever) installed on an application server isn't the same thing as me putting Java on my laptop -- my use of Java on my laptop would be for normal desktop-type stuff, while Tomcat's use of Java on a server would not be.

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry but I really think you're mixing things up here...

Oracle is talking about Java (JVM) and it's tools like JDK etc. They say on which hardware you can run them, desktops, laptops or servers. Tomcat runs in the JVM, so it's at a level that Oracle has nothing to say about unless they want to preventing their software being used at all.

HIGH MID LOW Tomcat -> JVM -> Hardware & OS Apache Oracle Win/*nix

As far as I read it, I'm not a lawyer, they're talking about the options for MID -> LOW.

Tomcat is server-SOFTWARE, a general purpose server is server-HARDWARE.

In any case, you can always choose OpenJDK etc...

gr arno

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Christopher Myers

10 Jan 10 Jan

19:22

Well, we received the response from the Oracle licensing folks -- They would need to license Java for each processor for each server running Tomcat; to license all the cores on all of the VMWare hosts. Soooo, it looks like Java on an application server isn't free... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Glenn Holmer

20:07

On 01/10/2017 01:22 PM, Christopher Myers wrote:

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Well, we received the response from the Oracle licensing folks --

Can you document that? Sounds like rubbish to me if it's just Tomcat.

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They would need to license Java for each processor for each server running Tomcat; to license all the cores on all of the VMWare hosts. Soooo, it looks like Java on an application server isn't free...

-- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christopher Myers

23:41

Our vendor that the Tomcat instance was going to be for has requested that we have the licensing vendor put in an Oracle SR so that we can have an official answer from Oracle themselves, so we've done so. We're also asking for a second opinion from a second licensing vendor. I'll let everyone know when we hear back. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Aaron Digulla

26 Dec 26 Dec

19:58

On 23.12.2016 14:17, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

I came across this

http://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-starts-to-audit-java-customers-2016-12

and I find it rather disturbing. I'm glad I'm a Linux user :-)

Are there FOSS 'installers' for Java and Windows?

No. The installer which you can download from the Oracle site doesn't cost you money but it's not FOSS, it's proprietary software. Check the license to understand what that means for you. Java 8 is mostly open source, see http://openjdk.java.net/. The Windows installer still contains proprietary code, so it's not as free as the Java runtime inside. The software which the article refers is a proprietary Java installer which allows you to install Java applications on every computer in your company. That's not the thing which you can download on the public Oracle pages. You need an Oracle account for it, you should read the license for it when you do and you should pay the fees when you plan to use it. It's like M$ Word. A lot of people have a copy with dubious legal status. M$ doesn't go after them, that would be a waste of money and time. M$ watches big companies with lots of computers. If they have reason to assume that they didn't buy everything they should have, they knock (friendly) on the door and "help" them (= audit) to get their stuff in order. M$ will earn $500'000+ in the process and everyone is happy. Oracle isn't a not-for-profit company. They bought Java to make money. Elliot didn't become a billionaire by giving stuff away for free. If you use his products, you should understand the terms under which you do. Regards, -- Aaron "Optimizer" Digulla a.k.a. Philmann Dark "It's not the universe that's limited, it's our imagination. Follow me and I'll show you something beyond the limits." http://blog.pdark.de/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

20:18

On 12/26/2016 02:58 PM, Aaron Digulla wrote:

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Oracle isn't a not-for-profit company. They bought Java to make money. Elliot didn't become a billionaire by giving stuff away for free. If you use his products, you should understand the terms under which you do.

They bought Sun and Java came along for the ride. Also, IIRC, Sun's intention was that it be freely available. Similar happened with OpenOffice and when Sun decided they couldn't make a business with it, they gave it to Apache. BTW, who's Elliot? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (8)

Aaron Digulla
Anton Aylward
ArnoB
Carlos E. R.
Christopher Myers
Glenn Holmer
James Knott
Stanislav Baiduzhyi