Did Munich pull out of the Suse Linux deal?
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Hi All! Someone told me that the city of Munich was no longer going to switch to Suse. He claims the reason was that it was too expensive. I couldn't find anything about it and he couldn't remember where he saw/read it. It *could* be the he or his source is just spreading FUD, but I was wondering if anyone else had heard anything. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups or forums are subject to reposting.
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On 24/01/05 03:27 AM, James Mohr <suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com> wrote:
Hi All!
Someone told me that the city of Munich was no longer going to switch to Suse. He claims the reason was that it was too expensive. I couldn't find anything about it and he couldn't remember where he saw/read it. It *could* be the he or his source is just spreading FUD, but I was wondering if anyone else had heard anything.
The last I heared was that it was still going ahead but at a slower rate. Like Bergen, Paris and on a rather smaller scale Trinity theres a lot more work to do in a desktop conversion than first seems necessary, especially in regards to training the end users. Many of us on this list have probably used dozens of operating systems over the years, but for someone whose only ever used win98 and doesnt have a computer at home having your start button replaced with either geeko or kgears and MS Office with OOo its going to be a bit traumatic. The extra time they've added to the projects is only going to make it more of a sucess. In specific regards to Munich, the used car salesman crossed with a mafia don that is Steve Ballmer did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest. Regards, Ben
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On Tuesday 25 January 2005 10:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <SNIP>
In specific regards to Munich, the used car salesman crossed with a mafia don that is Steve Ballmer did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
I had heard about that,too. I thought that maybe Ballmer had upped the anti by promising the Munich mayor a villa on Sicily or something. Good to hear how sensible the Bavarians are. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups or forums are subject to reposting.
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James Mohr wrote:
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 10:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <SNIP>
In specific regards to Munich, the used car salesman crossed with a mafia don that is Steve Ballmer did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
I had heard about that,too. I thought that maybe Ballmer had upped the anti by promising the Munich mayor a villa on Sicily or something. Good to hear how sensible the Bavarians are.
Drinking beer has it's benefits. ;-)
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On Tuesday 25 January 2005 18:23, James Knott wrote:
James Mohr wrote:
undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
I had heard about that,too. I thought that maybe Ballmer had upped the anti by promising the Munich mayor a villa on Sicily or something. Good to hear how sensible the Bavarians are.
Drinking beer has it's benefits. ;-)
It sure does.. Beer contains all the essential vitamins except C. The only problem is the amount you have to drink to get the minimum daily requirements. But I'm trying.. ;-) Mike -- Powered by SuSE 9.2 Kernel 2.6.8 KDE 3.3.0 Kmail 1.7.1 For Mondo/Mindi backup support go to http://www.mikenjane.net/~mike 6:37pm up 3 days 1:45, 5 users, load average: 3.13, 3.20, 3.00
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Ben Higginbottom wrote:
did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.ch/freetrial - jetzt für 30 Tage ausprobieren - kostenlos und unverbindlich!
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Per Jessen wrote:
Ben Higginbottom wrote:
did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.
In some jurisdictions, that might be considered illegal.
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James Knott wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.
In some jurisdictions, that might be considered illegal.
I'm not convinced it was/is legal in Germany either. Although I'm sure there are ways of disguising a 100% discount such that it appears to be legal. Anyway, the information was *leaked* - it wasn't exactly a press-release ... /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/freetrial - sign up for your free 30-day trial now!
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On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 09:20, James Knott wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Ben Higginbottom wrote:
did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.
In some jurisdictions, that might be considered illegal.
What do you think MS does all the time when they add/bundle in another piece of software because someone else has a competing product. The latest that comes to mind is the media player that now has to be removed from XP in Europe. I wish the US had the balls to do the same but I think our country leaders are being bought off (lobbyist) by MS. <opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion> -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
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On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 11:21:08AM -0500, Ken Schneider wrote:
What do you think MS does all the time when they add/bundle in another piece of software because someone else has a competing product. The latest that comes to mind is the media player that now has to be removed from XP in Europe.
From what I remember of the ruling, they don't have to remove it from XP. They have to provide a version of XP without Media Player, so that the consumer can choose to buy XP either with or without it.
Of course, ICBW.
<opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion>
Or enter a "partnership" with a competitor under the pretext of licensing thier technology, end the partnership just before release day, release their new product using their competitor's technology, then use the time it takes for the competitor to take them to court to (a) undermine their competitor's business (since they're effectively releasing a free (beer) version of their competitor's product and (b) develop their own version of their competitor's product that's just different enough to be immune from a lawsuit. http://www.vaxxine.com/lawyers/articles/stac.html Oh, and these are my personal opinions, and nothing to do with my employer. -- David Smith Work Email: Dave.Smith@st.com STMicroelectronics Home Email: David.Smith@ds-electronics.co.uk Bristol, England GPG Key: 0xF13192F2
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Þann Þriðjudagur 25 janúar 2005 17:21 skrifaði Ken Schneider:
<opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion>
<My not so humble opinion> MS is not at fault here, it's the "competing" product that is ... it's only natural that a company like MS tries to bully out the competition. That's what competition is about ... out maneuvering your opponent. The world is full of half wits, that sit at their MickeySoft computer, and make a PaperClip, I mean Excel document that looks nice and has some numbers in it. They sell their time "expensive" and rip off the customer, Big Time ... and it ain't MickeySoft. I just "recently" in another thread, made a comment about buisness and I ain't got stomache to repeat it. The bottom line is, that it ain't MickeySoft that's at fault ... ask yourself, why isn't their any "real" software coming from Europe? Why isn't Linux being supported and aided in Europe, after all it's a European product? Where are all the "European" friendly industries, when computer software is concerned? It's easy to go and blame MickeySoft, but Europe banning "Media Player" is a Euro Problem with legal stuff. It's like this, we peaked the oil or are "just about" to ... the prices of oil are at their highest, and likely to rise ... and Europe builds a bigger airbus, and calls it a work of genius. So, just face it ... the reason MickeySoft is doing so well, is because we here in Europe lost all our intellectuals to the US ... those of us who are still here, are guys like myself who aint got nothing of value that the US wants. </My not so humble opinion>
-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998
* Only reply to the list please*
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
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So, just face it ... the reason MickeySoft is doing so well, is because we here in Europe lost all our intellectuals to the US ... those of us who are still here, are guys like myself who aint got nothing of value that the US wants. Not sure that is correct.. If you want to move here that is. ;) Lot's of folks coming along from everywhere that have skills. And it's probably nicer here
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 2:07 pm, Örn Einar Hansen wrote: than in China.. and will be for at least long enough to learn Chinese <VBG> They are coming on fast tho. -- j I'm putting on the B-mer Brothers Would you mind putting on this grass skirt?
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On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 14:07, Örn Einar Hansen wrote:
Þann Þriðjudagur 25 janúar 2005 17:21 skrifaði Ken Schneider:
<opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion>
<My not so humble opinion> MS is not at fault here, it's the "competing" product that is ... it's only natural that a company like MS tries to bully out the competition. That's what competition is about ... out maneuvering your opponent.
No. It is about being a monopoly and using that to your advantage to undermine the competition and put them out of business. If MS HAD to compete on an even play field they would go out of business. If they want to market a media player let them sell it as a separate product in the stores like everyone else. Hell it would only create another revenue stream would it not! The problem is, their competing product is not as good yet they want to force it on the consumer. And it has been found that MOST people will not install something that is all ready installed on the PC. But now we are getting way OT here. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
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No. It is about being a monopoly and using that to your advantage to undermine the competition and put them out of business. If MS HAD to compete on an even play field they would go out of business. MickeySoft began by being the underdog ... it got here by shrews buisness management, plain and simple. And I don't see the workings of EU as in "leveling the playing field". For what? For Unix? man, have you taken a look at those old licenses? For CPM? Perhaps, for the Green Desktop (Atari). MS offered a competent product, at low prices compared to the competition (Unix) ... it offered the ability to do Word Processing and Spreadsheets, with ease ... something anyone who used the old Unices, knows wasn't that simple. That doesn't mean MickeySoft doesn't use their "being ahead" to
If they want to market a media player let them sell it as a separate product in the stores like everyone else. Hell it would only create another revenue stream would it not! The problem is, their competing product is not as good yet they want to force it on the consumer. A couple of years ago, it was the Internet Explorer ... now we got Konqueror :-) and this time around, it's Windows Media player ... point is, isn't it the choice of the user, what he wants? Why should the average user be forced to go out and buy a separate program to play junk music? The average user doesn't have ears for quality, if he did he'd buy some serious music software ... why "force" the user to buy music software separate. Because it makes revenue for the music software producer ... and he feels,
And it has been found that MOST people will not install something that is all ready installed on the PC. Because most people don't have the need for it ... if you need to browse, as I do ... you'll install Firefox or Mozilla instead of the crummy IE. Just
Þann Þriðjudagur 25 janúar 2005 22:33 skrifaði Ken Schneider: their advantage ... but hey, it's not their buisness to give handouts. The only real competitor to MickeySoft was Apple, and they've been way way too expensive to get market share ... that was their choice. The way I see it, 60% (perhaps more) of the lame duck comments on MickeySoft is just plain lame. Not all ... but alot of it. that Windows having it built-in, removes his profitability. Well, tell you what ... the ability to play music with the built-in software in the computer has been around since ... what ... C= 64? ... :-) So, windows isn't providing anything new ... they're just doing it better. the "tabs" makes it worth while, not to mention the more cleaner stylesheet presentation. And why not make a deal with the stores to bundle this software? like MickeySoft did ... the laws to "ban" that, isn't to the advantage of the underdog, it's to the advantage of MickeySoft. With the ban, the stores will only get known OS's like MickeySoft, because otherwise they might jeapordize their product. The average user, is looking for MickeySoft ... plain and simple, so unless MickeySoft is making some "clause" that states that any other software than MickeySoft, bundled with the computer will void the contract, than anyone else can play the same game MickeySoft did ... and if they "did" that (voided the OEM license), it would be illegal in any country and the company who got "screwd" because of it, would have the opportunity to sue MickeySoft for damages ... woo haa $$$ :-) And if you got ears for music, like my older brother does (I don't, just to make that clear) ... you'll do like he does, and get "good quality" software to play music, and dump WIndows Media player. The average user, is merely guys like myself who don't got much money, and absolutely no need for quality, who feel Windows is already way too expensive as it is. After all, I feel it's the user who choses ... not the EU. A lot of rules and bans from the EU, or an organ like the Film industry that say i can't record what I see or hear, because it's copyrighted by an alien on mars. Is not merely lame ... it borders on being "dictation", as in "dictatorship". And whenever the tune of "dictatorship" rings in my ears ... it just brings out the rebel in me. :-) I think it's something inherent in my genes. :-)
But now we are getting way OT here.
Yeah, I know, I marked the trheat OT.
-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998
* Only reply to the list please*
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
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On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 07:57, Per Jessen wrote:
Ben Higginbottom wrote:
did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.
Isn't that the equivalent of dumping, and against WTO policy?
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On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 12:39:11PM -0500, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 07:57, Per Jessen wrote:
Ben Higginbottom wrote:
did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.
Isn't that the equivalent of dumping, and against WTO policy?
Microsoft listens to policys now?
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
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Mike McMullin wrote:
On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 07:57, Per Jessen wrote:
Ben Higginbottom wrote:
did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.
Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.
Isn't that the equivalent of dumping, and against WTO policy?
Policy Bolicy, MS doesn't care, but Munich knows a rat when they see one and what rats do to you. I read here in the UK that they have Cambridge University sown up, an object lesson in how to bribe people with their own money, call it generosity and get richer and richer on it. Then the National health Service is eternally grateful with 500m pounds thrown MS's way on top of a 3-legged system that cost them 1 billion - prostitution is still illegal here, but I haven't seen anyone jailed for it in many a year, so the politicians can practice their art in relative safety. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
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On 26/01/05 02:42 AM, Sid Boyce <sboyce@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Policy Bolicy, MS doesn't care, but Munich knows a rat when they see one and what rats do to you. I read here in the UK that they have Cambridge University sown up, an object lesson in how to bribe people with their own money, call it generosity and get richer and richer on it.
IIRC doesnt the Bill Gates building have their machines dual booted with either RH9 or Fedora? Regards, Ben
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On 26/01/05 03:54 PM, Sid Boyce <sboyce@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Interesting, I hadn't heard that. Perhaps more than a few in Redmond outside of their Linux group do that also. Well, I suppose, if the ship is holed and the crew are busy bailing out water, there is no need for us to waste more torpedoes on it. Regards Sid.
Most universities have Linux labs now, when I was doing my engineering degree we were basically introduced to 'A Mans Operating System" on our first day, and the same happend for science/physics students and I belive it continues. Manchester I know introduces Linux at the start of the second year for their compsci students, although of course many of them have already introduced themselves to it and in the matter of weeks have become Guru's. Of course then they come to the Lug and encounter some of the Bearded ones discussing PDP4's and the time they watched Seymor Cray use toggle switches to write an OS he'd written into a computer he'd designed... and then they dont tend to come back :-) Universities are not blind to the benefits of Linux or indeed any other OS thats gaining market share, but they want support contracts from reputable big name companies and the whole kit and caboodle with it, which ahs only recently become available within the last few years. Many universities will still be in a contract with the beast for at least the next couple of years, once those contracts lapse then you'll start to see an uptake across the board, especially as Longhorn wont ship on time. As for the NHS contract, well are you honestly surprised that they didnt decide to stop being a monetary black hole? Regards, Ben
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Ben Higginbottom wrote:
On 26/01/05 02:42 AM, Sid Boyce <sboyce@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Policy Bolicy, MS doesn't care, but Munich knows a rat when they see one and what rats do to you. I read here in the UK that they have Cambridge University sown up, an object lesson in how to bribe people with their own money, call it generosity and get richer and richer on it.
IIRC doesnt the Bill Gates building have their machines dual booted with either RH9 or Fedora?
Regards,
Ben
Interesting, I hadn't heard that. Perhaps more than a few in Redmond outside of their Linux group do that also. Well, I suppose, if the ship is holed and the crew are busy bailing out water, there is no need for us to waste more torpedoes on it. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
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Þann Miðvikudagur 26 janúar 2005 16:54 skrifaði Sid Boyce:
Interesting, I hadn't heard that. Perhaps more than a few in Redmond outside of their Linux group do that also. Well, I suppose, if the ship is holed and the crew are busy bailing out water, there is no need for us to waste more torpedoes on it. I don't think it has anything to do with leaking ships ... but is sorta like "legal industrial espionage". You know, get to know your opponent. :-)
Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
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* Örn Einar Hansen <orn.hansen@swipnet.se> [01-26-05 13:42]:
I don't think it has anything to do with leaking ships ... but is sorta like "legal industrial espionage". You know, get to know your opponent. :-)
but, in getting to know their opponent, they may become part of the opponent..... -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos
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Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Örn Einar Hansen <orn.hansen@swipnet.se> [01-26-05 13:42]:
I don't think it has anything to do with leaking ships ... but is sorta like "legal industrial espionage". You know, get to know your opponent. :-)
but, in getting to know their opponent, they may become part of the opponent.....
You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. ;-)
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Þann Miðvikudagur 26 janúar 2005 21:58 skrifaði Patrick Shanahan:
but, in getting to know their opponent, they may become part of the opponent..... Wasn't it some famous "military" guru that said these infamous words:
"If you can't beat them, join them". But then, he probably never listent to Leonid Cohen "First we take manhattan". :-) My 0,2€¢ worth, Örn
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On Tuesday 25 January 2005 03:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <snip>
The last I heared was that it was still going ahead but at a slower rate. <snip>
You're right. I just got done reading an article about Munich's migration and it's going to be a slow one, due to be completed in 2008. -- Jake Sallee spark@breathdedeeply.com www.breathedeeply.com Registered Linux User #358012 http://counter.li.org
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On 27/01/05 12:47 AM, Doug McGarrett <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)
TBH I havnt had any problems with 9.2 I havnt been able to solve within a reasonable amount of time, but then again I'm not exactly new to the world of Unix. As allways if you know what your doing you can make it look easy/
And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.? Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)
Were a school, we certainly dont use Autocad, and the educational programs we do use we made sure they ran under WINE 18 months ago, including hiring a student developer from our local university to add the necessary code to WINE. Alternatively, if you dont want to hire someone to make program X work, find an alternative that does or use an emulator or application interface. Either way that sort of thing is handled in the planning and development stages, you sit down with lots of other people and go through their requirements, it may be that they do need Windows or a Mac or a Bebox or any number of other operating systems or terminals, if so then thats what you give them. The school's admin office still has to run DOS apps on Win98, it wont run on NT5 or Dosbox so their stuck with 98 for the forseeable future.
Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.
Never said or even inferred they were, infact I think I was pointing out the exact opposite, but the problems are solvable if you put the work in. Regards, Ben
![](https://seccdn.libravatar.org/avatar/3207098d6d0d4c6ad6741ccace678198.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 25/01/05 07:17 PM, Jake Sallee <spark@breathedeeply.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 03:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <snip>
The last I heared was that it was still going ahead but at a slower rate. <snip>
You're right. I just got done reading an article about Munich's migration and it's going to be a slow one, due to be completed in 2008.
Belive me for an install base as large as Munich's (14,000 IIRC) a 4 year migration isnt at all slow. IBM is looking at probably a minimum of 5 years to migrate all 200,000 desktops, longer if they port all their software suites. Novell switched to a dual boot system and OOo last summer and will have migrated to NLD fully by the end of this summer, which I thought was amazingly quick. Trinity is looking at a 3 - 4 year migration, we went dual boot with win98 over the summer and ironing out all the major issues with the clients took us through to October, when they start being used for formal lessons within the next few weeks I'm sure a whole load of other issues will crop up as well. Making the clients look right is also amazingly difficult, slight style differences can cause all kinds of issues, such as single clicking on a directory/folder to open it or clicking on the title bar causing it to shade as opposed to go fullscreen can cause a casual user to get worried. Were using KDE3 with Plastik to give it the windows look, but when I was setting up the desktop due to my years of using CDE or XFCE or similar I put all the launchers on the kicker as opposed to icons on the desktop which threw people initially because they were so used to icons being on the desktop. The second hardest thing is convincing people that linux != windows in any shape or form, its something completley different, and approaching it with a windows mindset is liable to lead to disaster. We've also had to factor in time for the teachers to learn not only linux, but the other apps they would be using such as OOo. Theres also a not inconsiderable number of kids who have been using Linux for a few or more years who are practically salivating at the chance of getting one over on teach with their 133t sk1llz, which is yet another thing to factor in and build safeguards against. Finally there are the kids who have started their GCSE preperations. Its totally unfair on them to expect them to jump to another OS when they have much more important things on their minds. Not to mention that we couldnt find them a suitable database client/tool in time, hopefully those who will be starting their GCSE's in september will be able to use Base in OOo2, so long as OOo2 is finished in time and the relevant teachers can get familar with it. Which means that we'll be able to defenestrate ourselves (should the bosses want that) by the earliest September 2007. Belive me any large scale desktop conversion is far, far from a walk in the park, but on the upside you do get to have kids come and complain that Gnome isnt installed, and get to tell them it never will be due to the lack of lockdown options :) Regards, Ben
![](https://seccdn.libravatar.org/avatar/d90575edf95bf692363b68c52b5eb0ed.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?) And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.? Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?) Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle. --doug At 09:40 AM 1/26/2005 +0000, Ben Higginbottom wrote:
On 25/01/05 07:17 PM, Jake Sallee <spark@breathedeeply.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 03:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <snip>
The last I heared was that it was still going ahead but at a slower rate. Belive me for an install base as large as Munich's (14,000 IIRC) a 4 year migration isnt at all slow. IBM is looking at probably a minimum of 5 years to migrate all 200,000 desktops, longer if they port all their software suites. Novell switched to a dual boot system and OOo last summer and will have migrated to NLD fully by the end of this summer, which I thought was amazingly quick.
/snip/
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On Thursday 27 January 2005 00:47, Doug McGarrett wrote:
Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)
And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.?
Plenty of CAD stuff for Sun, if not for Linux. You certainly don't need MS. Can't tell you about the other stuff, because I've never heard of it. Pro-E sounds like a bodybuilding supplement.
Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)
Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.
--doug
Apart from a few annoyances getting my scanner running on one install, I haven't seen many of these problems ... I know that's a matter of hardware luck to an extent, but I've got three perfectly happy 9.2 installs running fine and doing everything I need. Remember you're talking about people's questions and often minor frustrations with an entire distro, hundreds if not thousands of megabytes of userland programmes on top of an OS. And it's certainly not fuller of problems than WinXP is it? I was obliged to attempt to install that particular spectacular the other day (100% legal official CD), and the install programme is as dumb as a brick. The disk partitioning tools are complete poo, and you're given almost no control over things. The one thing they make sure 'works' is that you can't get anywhere without their precious codes, and that it will commit suicide if you don't 'activate' it, and that you can't set it up on more than on machine. Without an internet connection this means you actually have to phone them in order to have it continue working. No thanks! I already paid for this stuff and now I have to phone Mummy to be allowed to use it? Now start comparing like for like in terms of price: you won't get far with productivity on what comes on an XP disc, will you? You want a machine with the kind of software loadout that comes with SuSE in Windows and it would cost me five or ten times the price to set up. Cheers Fergus
At 09:40 AM 1/26/2005 +0000, Ben Higginbottom wrote:
On 25/01/05 07:17 PM, Jake Sallee <spark@breathedeeply.com> wrote:
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 03:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <snip>
The last I heared was that it was still going ahead but at a slower rate.
Belive me for an install base as large as Munich's (14,000 IIRC) a 4 year
migration isnt at all slow. IBM is looking at probably a minimum of 5 years to migrate all 200,000 desktops, longer if they port all their software suites. Novell switched to a dual boot system and OOo last summer and will have migrated to NLD fully by the end of this summer, which I thought was amazingly quick.
/snip/
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
![](https://seccdn.libravatar.org/avatar/6d198f8c8f1c94ccef873cebcf4f5dfa.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Fergus Wilde wrote:
On Thursday 27 January 2005 00:47, Doug McGarrett wrote:
Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)
And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.?
Plenty of CAD stuff for Sun, if not for Linux. You certainly don't need MS. Can't tell you about the other stuff, because I've never heard of it. Pro-E sounds like a bodybuilding supplement.
Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)
Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.
--doug
Apart from a few annoyances getting my scanner running on one install, I haven't seen many of these problems ... I know that's a matter of hardware luck to an extent, but I've got three perfectly happy 9.2 installs running fine and doing everything I need. Remember you're talking about people's questions and often minor frustrations with an entire distro, hundreds if not thousands of megabytes of userland programmes on top of an OS.
And it's certainly not fuller of problems than WinXP is it? I was obliged to attempt to install that particular spectacular the other day (100% legal official CD), and the install programme is as dumb as a brick. The disk partitioning tools are complete poo, and you're given almost no control over things. The one thing they make sure 'works' is that you can't get anywhere without their precious codes, and that it will commit suicide if you don't 'activate' it, and that you can't set it up on more than on machine. Without an internet connection this means you actually have to phone them in order to have it continue working. No thanks! I already paid for this stuff and now I have to phone Mummy to be allowed to use it?
Now start comparing like for like in terms of price: you won't get far with productivity on what comes on an XP disc, will you? You want a machine with the kind of software loadout that comes with SuSE in Windows and it would cost me five or ten times the price to set up. Cheers Fergus
First of all I'll hold my hands up and say 9.2 can be a dog to install, it's a chameleon, different problems or none, depending on the hardware, what colour shirt you are wearing, outside air temperature and everything else. Once it's up it's solid. Strange thing also is that none of the reviewers seemed to have hit problems. I had 2 hairy upgrades from 9.1 one on a XP3000+/32-bit, the other on XP3000+/64-bit, but a new install on a P-II/333/64M/2M video laptop went without a hitch. No wonder Fergus thought E-pro was a bodybuilding supplement, the wisdom in the software buying world is to bone up on the ads section of the most glossy mags, buy that software and stick with it -- understandable and wise, but occasionally you should take the blinkers off. There are increasing numbers of professional products being ported to Linux, especially in the electronic CAD field, for normal mechanical CAD systems, I'm sure I've seen stuff, VARICAD and others that can handle the Autocad stuff, but you won't find them on the shelf at PC World, Fry's, Weirdstuff or in the rag-tag of PC mags around the world. Sun and SGI used to be the ace platforms for CAD but at a phemomenal price tag both for hardware and software. Many of the electronic CAD companies that listed all the drawbacks to developing for Linux changed their minds in just a few months. Autocad is different, they have a sworn allegiance to Windows only, they won't soil their rubber gloves on anything as corrosive and filthy as Linux. www.varicad.com says -------------------------- news 2004-11-16 VariCAD for SUSE LINUX 9.2 and Fedora Core 3 learn more ... I've found Linux to be flexible, it's the only platform I've used since I blasted Win95 off my work laptop many years ago and could still work with our near 100% Windows setup and colleagues who recited every day the mantra that bill gates' wee-wee is purer than the fruitjuice he drinks. If I need a new solution, I look for a Linux one, perhaps it's easier for me as I don't know many if any Windows ones. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
![](https://seccdn.libravatar.org/avatar/3d65ce348306eb0e36a6ec890e3e1b2d.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Thursday 27 January 2005 15:04, Sid Boyce wrote:
Fergus Wilde wrote:
On Thursday 27 January 2005 00:47, Doug McGarrett wrote:
<yadda yadda>
No wonder Fergus thought E-pro was a bodybuilding supplement, the wisdom in the software buying world is to bone up on the ads section of the most glossy mags, buy that software and stick with it -- understandable and wise, but occasionally you should take the blinkers off.
Sid, I *like* the blinkers ... <yebba yabba>
I've found Linux to be flexible, it's the only platform I've used since I blasted Win95 off my work laptop many years ago and could still work with our near 100% Windows setup and colleagues who recited every day the mantra that bill gates' wee-wee is purer than the fruitjuice he drinks.
Yeah - big Jessie prolly can't take his beer ...
If I need a new solution, I look for a Linux one, perhaps it's easier for me as I don't know many if any Windows ones. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
![](https://seccdn.libravatar.org/avatar/7942fce06ffe93d68cd7be282b410e40.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
There already is a Pro-E port to linux/intel as proprietary. The website: http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html has a ton of CAD applications for linux. Allen ---- Address: Allen Wilkinson (phone) (216) 382-7613 1036 Pembrook Road (work) (216) 433-2075 Cleveland Heights, OH 44121 USA (INTERNET) aw(at)apk(dot)net +++++++ "Pluralism is the belief that all people have reasons for their beliefs. We ought to assume, until proven otherwise, that the stranger conducts her business on grounds that seem perfectly reasonable to her, and that she is capable of explaining this to us. We ought to realize that our own reasoning, like everyone else's, is fallible and unfinished." Author Unknown On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Sid Boyce wrote:
Fergus Wilde wrote:
On Thursday 27 January 2005 00:47, Doug McGarrett wrote:
Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)
And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.?
Plenty of CAD stuff for Sun, if not for Linux. You certainly don't need MS. Can't tell you about the other stuff, because I've never heard of it. Pro-E sounds like a bodybuilding supplement.
Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)
Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.
--doug
Apart from a few annoyances getting my scanner running on one install, I haven't seen many of these problems ... I know that's a matter of hardware luck to an extent, but I've got three perfectly happy 9.2 installs running fine and doing everything I need. Remember you're talking about people's questions and often minor frustrations with an entire distro, hundreds if not thousands of megabytes of userland programmes on top of an OS. And it's certainly not fuller of problems than WinXP is it? I was obliged to attempt to install that particular spectacular the other day (100% legal official CD), and the install programme is as dumb as a brick. The disk partitioning tools are complete poo, and you're given almost no control over things. The one thing they make sure 'works' is that you can't get anywhere without their precious codes, and that it will commit suicide if you don't 'activate' it, and that you can't set it up on more than on machine. Without an internet connection this means you actually have to phone them in order to have it continue working. No thanks! I already paid for this stuff and now I have to phone Mummy to be allowed to use it?
Now start comparing like for like in terms of price: you won't get far with productivity on what comes on an XP disc, will you? You want a machine with the kind of software loadout that comes with SuSE in Windows and it would cost me five or ten times the price to set up. Cheers Fergus
First of all I'll hold my hands up and say 9.2 can be a dog to install, it's a chameleon, different problems or none, depending on the hardware, what colour shirt you are wearing, outside air temperature and everything else. Once it's up it's solid. Strange thing also is that none of the reviewers seemed to have hit problems. I had 2 hairy upgrades from 9.1 one on a XP3000+/32-bit, the other on XP3000+/64-bit, but a new install on a P-II/333/64M/2M video laptop went without a hitch. No wonder Fergus thought E-pro was a bodybuilding supplement, the wisdom in the software buying world is to bone up on the ads section of the most glossy mags, buy that software and stick with it -- understandable and wise, but occasionally you should take the blinkers off. There are increasing numbers of professional products being ported to Linux, especially in the electronic CAD field, for normal mechanical CAD systems, I'm sure I've seen stuff, VARICAD and others that can handle the Autocad stuff, but you won't find them on the shelf at PC World, Fry's, Weirdstuff or in the rag-tag of PC mags around the world. Sun and SGI used to be the ace platforms for CAD but at a phemomenal price tag both for hardware and software. Many of the electronic CAD companies that listed all the drawbacks to developing for Linux changed their minds in just a few months. Autocad is different, they have a sworn allegiance to Windows only, they won't soil their rubber gloves on anything as corrosive and filthy as Linux.
www.varicad.com says -------------------------- news 2004-11-16 VariCAD for SUSE LINUX 9.2 and Fedora Core 3 learn more ...
I've found Linux to be flexible, it's the only platform I've used since I blasted Win95 off my work laptop many years ago and could still work with our near 100% Windows setup and colleagues who recited every day the mantra that bill gates' wee-wee is purer than the fruitjuice he drinks. If I need a new solution, I look for a Linux one, perhaps it's easier for me as I don't know many if any Windows ones. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
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Allen Wilkinson wrote:
There already is a Pro-E port to linux/intel as proprietary.
The website: http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html has a ton of CAD applications for linux.
Allen ---- Proves the point precisely. It shows how little we know of what's available for Linux. Very often I see reviews in LinuxFormat (UK monthly) and at times I'm surprised at what they discover. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====
participants (18)
-
Allen
-
Allen Wilkinson
-
Ben Higginbottom
-
David SMITH
-
Doug McGarrett
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Fergus Wilde
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Jake Pumphrey
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Jake Sallee
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James Knott
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James Mohr
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jfweber@bellsouth.net
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Ken Schneider
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Mike
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Mike McMullin
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Patrick Shanahan
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Per Jessen
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Sid Boyce
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Örn Einar Hansen