A major website has soliticited ideas from the American public and requested comments and next month will ask the public to vote on the best of these. On idea which was mentioned on this list recently is listed here: <http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/idea/17324>. If you'd like to see tax software for OSS, then make your comments and cast your vote. -- "It is not knowable how long that conflict would last, it could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." --Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 2/7/03
I'm cross-posting this to a sometimes wacky, usually perceptive, politically incorrect Editor's mailing list, as I'd like to see it examined, and it'll be more on-topic over there. On Friday 23 December 2005 06:15, ken wrote:
A major website has soliticited ideas from the American public and requested comments and next month will ask the public to vote on the best of these. On idea which was mentioned on this list recently is listed here: <http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/idea/17324>. If you'd like to see tax software for OSS, then make your comments and cast your vote.
I'd love to see it OSS, at least to the extent of running on Linux... but, I'm not in "America" [for the purpose of this question, North America doesn't count], so it would be of little or no benefit to me. In general, however, the problems with tax software are: 1) while it can have a common core, too much of it must match the specific tax laws/regulations and loopholes of the country in which you are paying taxes 2) OSS works fine for the programming part, but much of the expertise in tax software is knowledge of this year's (and it changes every year, in every country) tax law and accounting rules. So, you need OSS tax lawyers and accountants from each country that levies income tax. If somebody could suggest open-source solutions to those little problems, THAT would certainly be the greatest thing since sliced bread. In my country, I can count all the OSS tax lawyers and tax accountants on the fingers of one hand... and have five fingers left over. Now, HERE's an idea that you could conjure with: Let's have taxation itself be OSS. No more of this leaving it to politicians and to the tax gnomes, hidden away in the bowels of the government. I'll bet it would take less than six months for taxation to be simplified and streamlined to the point where hardly anyone would ever need a tax lawyer or a tax accountant. Lifting that burden alone would free billions in our various economies. Let's hear it for the tax-Wiki! :-) Kevin (in Canada, where our tax man doesn't speak IRS, and neither does our tax software)
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:48:42 -0500 elefino <kevinmcl@magma.ca> wrote:
....
On Friday 23 December 2005 06:15, ken wrote:
A major website has soliticited ideas from the American public and requested comments and next month will ask the public to vote on the best of these. On idea which was mentioned on this list recently is listed here: <http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/idea/17324>. If you'd like to see tax software for OSS, then make your comments and cast your vote.
I'd love to see it OSS, at least to the extent of running on Linux... but, I'm not in "America" [for the purpose of this question, North America doesn't count], so it would be of little or no benefit to me.
Understood. Whether or not it would benefit folks outside the US would depend upon how the app was coded. I would think that a reasonably smart way to do write such an app would be to have a base executable that would read a file containing business rules and from that create the online version of the paper forms, i.e., something onscreen that the user would enter info into and would handle calculations and pulling up additional forms when needed. Keeping the business rules separate from the executables avoids a lot of issues: allows non-programmers to make the annual changes to the forms and allows the base executable to be (re-)used by different states, localities, and other countries.
In general, however, the problems with tax software are:
1) while it can have a common core, too much of it must match the specific tax laws/regulations and loopholes of the country in which you are paying taxes
See above.
2) OSS works fine for the programming part, but much of the expertise in tax software is knowledge of this year's (and it changes every year, in every country) tax law and accounting rules. So, you need OSS tax lawyers and accountants from each country that levies income tax.
Tax software need only provide an "electronic" means for filling in forms. It isn't necessary for it to provide legal counsel and accounting assistance. It might be nice if it did provide this kind of assistance, but it isn't required for the existence of tax software.
If somebody could suggest open-source solutions to those little problems, THAT would certainly be the greatest thing since sliced bread. In my country, I can count all the OSS tax lawyers and tax accountants on the fingers of one hand... and have five fingers left over.
What do you mean by "OSS tax lawyers"?
Now, HERE's an idea that you could conjure with:
Let's have taxation itself be OSS. No more of this leaving it to politicians and to the tax gnomes, hidden away in the bowels of the government. I'll bet it would take less than six months for taxation to be simplified and streamlined to the point where hardly anyone would ever need a tax lawyer or a tax accountant. Lifting that burden alone would free billions in our various economies. Let's hear it for the tax-Wiki! :-)
I'd be willing to have Linus Torwalds pick the people who devise the tax system and decide who and what gets taxed. He seems like a good guy who would select good people. But then I suppose that people here in the US would complain that the Constitution gives that job to Congress.
Kevin (in Canada, where our tax man doesn't speak IRS, and neither does our tax software)
Count your blessings. -- "It is not knowable how long that conflict would last, it could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." --Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 2/7/03
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2005-12-26 at 12:43 -0500, ken wrote:
I'd love to see it OSS, at least to the extent of running on Linux... but, I'm not in "America" [for the purpose of this question, North America doesn't count], so it would be of little or no benefit to me.
And me in Spain.
Understood. Whether or not it would benefit folks outside the US would depend upon how the app was coded. I would think that a reasonably smart way to do write such an app would be to have a base executable that would read a file containing business rules and from that create the online version of the paper forms, i.e., something onscreen that the user would enter info into and would handle calculations and pulling up additional forms when needed.
Forms vary a lot from country to country. One way to do it would be to develop a "form" program, that would allow to define forms, including constraints, rules, calculated rules, and context help. Then the output would have to be customizable in many ways, as required by each organization or country. I'll explain how things are here, in Spain, so you get a better picture of what is needed. For example, here the printed forms have to include a "dot code", similar to a "bar code" but with dots instead, that is scanned with a laser; they are usually printed in the second page of the set of forms, and they includes all the info from the whole set set of forms. For some taxes here, we can fill them using Acrobat Reader, then print or send them. I think an internet connection is needed, but I haven't tried if the system works in Linux; it might. You see, I'm reluctant to fill a tax form and paying a tax I don't need to, just to learn if it works in Linux ;-) For the, lets say "main taxes", our government gives for free a special purpose windows program that does all that is needed. It includes help, not only on filling them, but on tax related questions like what is gross income or whatever. There is no Linux version, but there is a java thing instead for "other OS". The snag is that it needs a permanent network connection to a government server, in internet. Other smaller taxes have other versions of their own programs. I heard they were thinking of Linux, I don't know how things will be this year. It seems the government pays a certain company to develop each year tax program, or rather, each year version of the same. It runs in windows, as I said, and uses "access" databases inside. It doesn't run in wine, perhaps some time it will. At least, the program is free, as in gratis, but not like in "freedom". As the program is sponsored by the government, we feel somewhat "protected" from software flaws creating incorrect tax declarations. On the other hand, there is at least one (or two?) private companies that design their own tax program, and they do it in Linux. Although the program is not free, there is some market for it. It would be very difficult to get it free, in both senses: you have got to pay the lawyers and accountants, not only the programmers.
Tax software need only provide an "electronic" means for filling in forms. It isn't necessary for it to provide legal counsel and accounting assistance. It might be nice if it did provide this kind of assistance, but it isn't required for the existence of tax software.
It is in Spain... Thanks to that, I have been able to fill my and my relatives forms without hiring external help, for some years. The chore is complicated by the jargon they use, even a down to earth version of their jargon as it is... That program is in fact responsible of my maintaining a windows system partition here. Well, that programs and the few games I have ;-)
If somebody could suggest open-source solutions to those little problems, THAT would certainly be the greatest thing since sliced bread. In my country, I can count all the OSS tax lawyers and tax accountants on the fingers of one hand... and have five fingers left over.
What do you mean by "OSS tax lawyers"?
That they are prepared to work for free, I understand. I don't see them coming into this culture, do you? :-p Who knows... - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDsEPktTMYHG2NR9URAvlrAJ4nuwLijrQLT3ywAxqThlfXEdZg8QCgjDxq JrUQQXquDkQMCFuiM2DzYgM= =dy2a -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Monday 26 December 2005 11:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2005-12-26 at 12:43 -0500, ken wrote:
I'd love to see it OSS, at least to the extent of running on Linux... but, I'm not in "America" [for the purpose of this question, North America doesn't count], so it would be of little or no benefit to me.
And me in Spain.
Cheers, Carlos Robinson Glad to see someone is ahead of the US inputing taxes direct to the government. Here you have to use a third party and a product like Turbo Tax or TaxCut to submit them. I've used Turbo Tax since 1991 and it works but is
the main reason I have not completely done away with Win XP. when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws. Just my 2cents. -- Russ
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 14:31 -0800, russbucket wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 11:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2005-12-26 at 12:43 -0500, ken wrote:
I'd love to see it OSS, at least to the extent of running on Linux... but, I'm not in "America" [for the purpose of this question, North America doesn't count], so it would be of little or no benefit to me.
And me in Spain.
Cheers, Carlos Robinson Glad to see someone is ahead of the US inputing taxes direct to the government. Here you have to use a third party and a product like Turbo Tax or TaxCut to submit them. I've used Turbo Tax since 1991 and it works but is the main reason I have not completely done away with Win XP.
when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws.
Just my 2cents. -- Russ
I use TaxAct myself, $12.95 including the free E-File - free if you snail mail your return, and it works just as good as the others. Still requires Windows (running mine in VMware) darn it. Time to write them another nasty email and try and turn them from the dark side. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:52 pm, Ken Schneider wrote:
I use TaxAct myself, $12.95 including the free E-File - free if you snail mail your return, and it works just as good as the others. Still requires Windows (running mine in VMware) darn it. Time to write them another nasty email and try and turn them from the dark side.
Been there and done it..........they are mostly non-responsive. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 18:50 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:52 pm, Ken Schneider wrote:
I use TaxAct myself, $12.95 including the free E-File - free if you snail mail your return, and it works just as good as the others. Still requires Windows (running mine in VMware) darn it. Time to write them another nasty email and try and turn them from the dark side.
Been there and done it..........they are mostly non-responsive.
Fred
Yes Fred I have as well. But if we keep on pestering them they will turn some day. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998
On Monday 26 December 2005 6:55 pm, Ken Schneider wrote:
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 18:50 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:52 pm, Ken Schneider wrote:
I use TaxAct myself, $12.95 including the free E-File - free if you snail mail your return, and it works just as good as the others. Still requires Windows (running mine in VMware) darn it. Time to write them another nasty email and try and turn them from the dark side.
Been there and done it..........they are mostly non-responsive.
Fred
Yes Fred I have as well. But if we keep on pestering them they will turn some day.
I hope so! I get after them and Intuit at least twice a year. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x
Haven't tried it myself, but I'd expect TurboTax on the Web to be independent of operating system and therefore usable under Linux. If you don't mind doing your taxes over the web. By the way, Massachusetts did at one time have an online system for doing state taxes, but they seem to have abandoned it. Paul
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:31 pm, russbucket wrote:
when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws.
I still say that MickySoft is VERY much involved in keeping them from porting to Linux. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 18:49 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:31 pm, russbucket wrote:
when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws.
I still say that MickySoft is VERY much involved in keeping them from porting to Linux.
In the worst sort of though, I think. Why spend resources on Linux when 'doze has so much desktop penetration? That one simple argument makes great business sense.
On Monday 26 December 2005 7:04 pm, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 18:49 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:31 pm, russbucket wrote:
when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws.
I still say that MickySoft is VERY much involved in keeping them from porting to Linux.
In the worst sort of though, I think. Why spend resources on Linux when 'doze has so much desktop penetration? That one simple argument makes great business sense.
It used to Mike, but reportedly there's more Linux on the desktop now than there are MACs, so it doesn't "wash" anymore. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 21:47 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 7:04 pm, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 18:49 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:31 pm, russbucket wrote:
when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws.
I still say that MickySoft is VERY much involved in keeping them from porting to Linux.
In the worst sort of though, I think. Why spend resources on Linux when 'doze has so much desktop penetration? That one simple argument makes great business sense.
It used to Mike, but reportedly there's more Linux on the desktop now than there are MACs, so it doesn't "wash" anymore.
I'm not arguing Mac numbers, they're less relevant. It takes resources to program for a platform, and to debug it. When you add a platform you require more developers and tech support. It's a wrong headed argument in my opinion, but waiting till there's critical mass for an OS that's proven stable in business is shooting oneself in the foot. I suppose they're waiting till the sort of folk who need training wheels on their boxes are willing to go over to Linux.
On Tuesday 27 December 2005 6:06 am, Mike McMullin wrote:
It used to Mike, but reportedly there's more Linux on the desktop now than there are MACs, so it doesn't "wash" anymore.
I'm not arguing Mac numbers, they're less relevant. It takes resources to program for a platform, and to debug it. When you add a platform you require more developers and tech support. It's a wrong headed argument in my opinion, but waiting till there's critical mass for an OS that's proven stable in business is shooting oneself in the foot. I suppose they're waiting till the sort of folk who need training wheels on their boxes are willing to go over to Linux.
Maybe that's it. I think it's a lazy way out of not doing what they know they WILL have to do eventually. Meanwhile, MickySoft continues to beat the drum that Linux won't ever have any real presence on the desktop. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x
Personally I solved my US tax problems back in '87. I just stopped bothering filing. :) -- Jim Hatridge Linux User #88484 ------------------------------------------------------ WartHog Bulletin Info about new German Stamps http://www.fuzzybunnymilitia.org/~hatridge/bulletin/index.php Viel Feind -- Viel Ehr' Anti-US Propaganda stamp collection http://www.fuzzybunnymilitia.org/~hatridge/collection/index.php
* James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> [12-27-05 18:10]:
James Hatridge wrote:
Personally I solved my US tax problems back in '87. I just stopped bothering filing. :)
So, how long are you in for? ;-
70 w/no earned income = not req'd to file -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
On Tue, 2005-12-27 at 19:26 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> [12-27-05 18:10]:
James Hatridge wrote:
Personally I solved my US tax problems back in '87. I just stopped bothering filing. :)
So, how long are you in for? ;-
70 w/no earned income = not req'd to file
We won't hold it against you. :-) Happy New Year and many more in the future. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998
On Tuesday 27 December 2005 7:45 pm, Ken Schneider wrote:
So, how long are you in for? ;-
> 70 w/no earned income = not req'd to file
We won't hold it against you.
I will........just so I can hear him "beller." ;) 'Haven't rattled his cage in awhile. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x
On Mon, 2005-12-26 at 18:49 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:
On Monday 26 December 2005 5:31 pm, russbucket wrote:
when I asked Initut (TurboTax developers) if they were developing a Linux version they sort of laughed. Not really funny in my opinion. As pointed out who ever develops this kind of package must be aware of the tax laws.
I still say that MickySoft is VERY much involved in keeping them from porting to Linux.
Likely only by the rubic of the sweetheart deal they might get on software and compilers. IMHO we need to make our own contacts with these companys and show them the benefits of linux. They can still develope closed source to run on linux like Netscape did for a time. They can still charge for the software with instruction books and for an 800 number for help and support. Its just a matter of how they want to submit the information on Paper which I prefer as does my accountant or electronically. Her program charges by the schedule, or module, you use. So if you use ten modules in your return it costs more than only using three. IMHO this would be vastly cheaper if we started over on the tax code with a flat rate, defined poverty level, clear rules for deductions for things like medical, mortgage and actual costs of production. Then again in America the tax code is not for revenue its for social engineering so perhaps its a lost cause. -- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/
On Monday 26 December 2005 12:43, ken wrote:
2) OSS works fine for the programming part, but much of the expertise in tax software is knowledge of this year's (and it changes every year, in every country) tax law and accounting rules. So, you need OSS tax lawyers and accountants from each country that levies income tax.
Tax software need only provide an "electronic" means for filling in forms. It isn't necessary for it to provide legal counsel and accounting assistance. It might be nice if it did provide this kind of assistance, but it isn't required for the existence of tax software.
If all you want is dumb form-filling, you can do that via web. The tax department itself supports that. They even prompt you about a few basic deductions. The point is that they don't provide you with the in-depth scrutiny and presentation of options that you receive with good tax software. In the US and Canada, using a brand-name tax software is roughly equivalent to taking your receipts and statements to a franchised tax preparer (a big one around here is H&R Block). They'll likely find you more deductions than you would yourself, unless you've had training (either the software or the franchisee), but will provide less comprehensive and personal service than would your personal tax accountant or lawyer. If you want some interpretation built in, such that the system finds the majority of deductions, claims, etc. that are applicable to you, based on what you input, then you need to build in some expertise. The people who provide QuickTax and other big-selling tax software do employ tax accountants and tax lawyers to work with the programmers, ensuring that you _do_ get the value-added features that make the software worth paying for.
If somebody could suggest open-source solutions to those little problems, THAT would certainly be the greatest thing since sliced bread. In my country, I can count all the OSS tax lawyers and tax accountants on the fingers of one hand... and have five fingers left over.
What do you mean by "OSS tax lawyers"?
I mean pretty-much what it sounds like. You won't find a tax accountant or tax lawyer who will donate her/his expertise to the community at large. The closest you'll get is when one of them writes a book, but of course, any book on tax preparation is outdated by the time it's published... or else it consists of generalities. The mindset that causes a programmer to tinker with something, either to make a new function that never existed, or to fix-upgrade an existing tool/app and then to share that knowledge and the source code with others is somewhat like scientists [used to be]. That's very different from the mindset of a tax lawyer or accountant, who discovers a new trick or loophole allowing clients to protect some of their money... the lawyer or accountant is motivated to keep such professional knowledge very tightly held as a competitive advantage. You just will not see a tax lawyer or accountant volunteer to sit down with a programmer for a couple of hundred hours of pro-bono refining and tweaking of tax-software rules and functions. It goes against their nature and their training. A programmer or group of programmers can play with a software function or a driver, on-and-off for months, and they can build on what they and others have done. If they are, say, supporting a certain type of hardware (example, video adapters), they can pick a subset and draw a line in the sand, saying this is as much as we're willing to support for now. That's because people have the option to use their stuff or not, or to use it for limited functionality (like support for your video card, but without 3D?) or to wait until upgraded support comes along. Tax software operates in a defined window of time, and (within a country) is all-or-nothing. You can't sell a software that supports half the tax code for your country, but not the other half, just because the programmer has a day job and didn't have time this year. Instead, you have to get a complete product out, and it needs to withstand some fairly rigorous legal and accounting tests -- real-life tax situations and people's livelyhoods.
Now, HERE's an idea that you could conjure with:
Let's have taxation itself be OSS. No more of this leaving it to politicians and to the tax gnomes, hidden away in the bowels of the government. I'll bet it would take less than six months for taxation to be simplified and streamlined to the point where hardly anyone would ever need a tax lawyer or a tax accountant. Lifting that burden alone would free billions in our various economies. Let's hear it for the tax-Wiki! :-)
I'd be willing to have Linus Torwalds pick the people who devise the tax system and decide who and what gets taxed. He seems like a good guy who would select good people. But then I suppose that people here in the US would complain that the Constitution gives that job to Congress.
But does Congress get into the nitty-gritty formulation and workings of the regulations? Is it more Congress or the IRS that determines that the tax code can't fit in a slim pamphlet, but instead requires a well-sprung delivery truck to carry it? In Canada, the Parliament enacts the laws, laying out the direction and broad strokes, but the bureaucrats construct the millions of intricate and often contradictory rules, ensuring not only their own jobs, but the jobs of all those accountants and lawyers who interpret all that [largely unnecessary] cack.
Kevin (in Canada, where our tax man doesn't speak IRS, and neither does our tax software)
Count your blessings.
Um, you haven't met our tax man. He's just as bad as yours. It's just that he speaks a slightly different dialect. Worse, he considers what he does to be a "service". Services are taxed in this country... :-) I think that if you let a bunch of programmers and other smart, interested people have a whack at slimming and simplifying the tax codes (any country), they'd tend to refine and smooth it, as happens in OSS projects and Wikis. Instead of lawyers and accountants being overjoyed every time the tax gnomes added a new layer of confusion (because it represented more scope for their income), the ordinary people would lend their considerable might to cleaning out the confusion and contradictions and fuzzy areas. We might still get taxed, but it would be clear and concise and not require professional "interpretation". Kevin
participants (12)
-
Carl William Spitzer IV -
Carlos E. R. -
elefino -
Fred A. Miller -
James Hatridge -
James Knott -
ken -
Ken Schneider -
Mike McMullin -
Patrick Shanahan -
Paul W. Abrahams -
russbucket