[opensuse] OpenSUSE mailing list netiquette improvements.
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience. To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors. What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics - no excessive quoting IMHO, sparse few words, to mark paragraph, should be enough. What can make list friendly? - posting style with interleaved answers - or bottom posting What else? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
What can make list friendly? - posting style with interleaved answers - or bottom posting
The point of bottom posting is so people can read the mail and then the reply. If you snip the mail out, then people just have to go to the archives to get the context (say they joined the list mid conversation). Once you remove the advantage of bottom posting (reading the whole conversation in order), you may as well revert to top posting for its advantage - not having to scroll to the end of stuff you've read and re-read 1,000 times already in order to read the new post (which is probably a 1 line quip!) Then, the mail can get large with all the previous guff and no one cares. a 100k mail is huge, and the largest mail I've seen on the list this year is around 217k. (only 4 bigger than 100k). Even the poor users on dialup won't have to spend too long downloading that, and the list server wouldn't need to give a crap really, even if it had to post it out to 1,000 users, the time and data usage would be minimal in the grand scheme of things - and remember, a 200k mail is not common. I advocate top posting, since we removed the benefit of bottom posting by cutting all the crap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience.
To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors.
What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics
1. Do not archive posts subject-marked with OT. Can this not be automated? 2. Simply ignore a post that is headed toward a rant. The post will appear in the archive at least once anyway. If others pile on to object, that adds noise for at least several cycles. There will always be noisemakers regardless of netiquette. If one thinks guidance will help, make reference to netiquette off-list, otherwise simply ignore noise. my 2 cents. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Tony Alfrey pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience. To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors. What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics
1. Do not archive posts subject-marked with OT. Can this not be automated?
Instead why not have the list maintainer auto delete posts with OT in them so they don't even make it to the list. Due to inflation, just my nickels worth. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:50:33 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Instead why not have the list maintainer auto delete posts with OT in them so they don't even make it to the list.
That's a good way to get those who are determined to post off-topic posts to the list to NOT use "OT" in their subject lines. My $0.10 worth. :-) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Tony Alfrey pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience. To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors. What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics
1. Do not archive posts subject-marked with OT. Can this not be automated?
Instead why not have the list maintainer auto delete posts with OT in them so they don't even make it to the list.
Due to inflation, just my nickels worth.
WHY does a simple OT post turn into a MESS - going from flaming to bashing to etiquette. Just let it post - and - be - done. NOW CAN THIS DIE ! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Duaine & Laura Hechler <dahechler@att.net> [03-16-09 17:05]:
WHY does a simple OT post turn into a MESS - going from flaming to bashing to etiquette.
Just let it post - and - be - done.
NOW CAN THIS DIE !
Would never have started if..... -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Ken Schneider - openSUSE <suse-list3@bout-tyme.net> [03-16-09 16:51]:
Instead why not have the list maintainer auto delete posts with OT in them so they don't even make it to the list.
A "Good Idea" (tm!), but then people would just not mark the "OT" :^( The "Solution" is to properly utilize the "OT" list, especially as that is why Chris created it and "It's intended function". If I search hard enough, I may even be able to find the thread where it's creation was documented (Thanks Chris). -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Tony Alfrey pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience. To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors. What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics
1. Do not archive posts subject-marked with OT. Can this not be automated?
Instead why not have the list maintainer auto delete posts with OT in them so they don't even make it to the list.
Due to inflation, just my nickels worth.
That wasn't very well thought out. At least when a person marks a post OT, they are being courteous enough to do so voluntarily. If such posts were simply never delivered, then why would anyone mark a post OT? You would still get just as many OT posts, merely now they wouldn't be labeled and you'd have to read them to find out they were uninteresting to you. OT: does not actually automatically mean not-interesting or not relevant. There are many potential items of discussion that would be of interest to the readers of a given list, yet not be technically on that lists nominal official topic. They are related enough not to be out of place, and I for one would not wish to have that info censored and prevented from reaching me. Yes, not all posters are the best and yes that means I receive some uninteresting or irelevant junk sometimes. That's the price or freedom and I'd rather have that than the alternative. I agree with the suggestion to "just chill" Treat things and people as a problem _when they actually are a problem_. -- blw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-03-16 at 16:50 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
1. Do not archive posts subject-marked with OT. Can this not be automated?
Instead why not have the list maintainer auto delete posts with OT in them so they don't even make it to the list.
That was done once upon a time. Did not work well, for reasons others have already mentioned. Ie, OT posts would be posted without the OT in the subject line - which is worse and defeats the intention. And about not archiving OT posts... those are a minimum. Most are simply forks and derivations of an original good threads that wander off topic, and those would require manual work to remove from the archive... and then we'd get people angry because some post was "censored". No, I don't think that pruning the archive is that good an idea. Not practical, anyway. Perhaps if readers of the archive could score posts :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkm/IBUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vj6QCfbYghQf88r6Us0SRldsS0jbtt OhcAn3Zd4if4srdkxhHiH8Njdsxp0OIe =8DEJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 16 March 2009 02:40:14 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience.
To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors.
What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics
1. Do not archive posts subject-marked with OT. Can this not be automated?
It is already done for opensuse-offtopic list, so all kind souls that think there is something interesting should subscribe there. It is easy as it could be. The archive is not the only problem. Load of mails that is hard to follow for people that just subscribed. Imagine poor guy that has a problem to install openSUSE. Subscribes to the list using Windows, and all of the sudden load of emails starts comming. How to make sense of that? I'm not surprised that new guys prefer forums.
2. Simply ignore a post that is headed toward a rant.
That is good advice. Just if people would apply it. It is hard to resist not to comment a good joke, but if we would make custom to make comment like:"I'm in a chat room (offtopic list).", and post full comment there, there will be benefit for everybody.
The post will appear in the archive at least once anyway. If others pile on to object, that adds noise for at least several cycles. There will always be noisemakers regardless of netiquette. If one thinks guidance will help, make reference to netiquette off-list, otherwise simply ignore noise.
I'm not for anything strict. There is offtopic list and quite few people are subscribed. More are welcome. I recall old opensuse forums used mostly trough NNTP interface. Their chat room was the one with the highest number of posts, and not all was non technical. It was just a room that had no restrictions. The opensuse@opensuse.org is for new user help, anything that is not new user problem doesn't belong here. I appreciate more ideas, how to make offtopic list something where one wants to be, not the other way around. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:08:18 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
I recall old opensuse forums used mostly trough NNTP interface.
This one is too, using gmane. The opensuse offtopic list is absent from that server, though. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 02:12:31 +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:08:18 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
I recall old opensuse forums used mostly trough NNTP interface.
This one is too, using gmane
Correction, it's maybe not "used mostly through an NNTP interface", but such an interface is available (as it's what I use). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience.
To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors.
What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics - no excessive quoting IMHO, sparse few words, to mark paragraph, should be enough.
What can make list friendly? - posting style with interleaved answers - or bottom posting
What else?
Take care of the main problem: figure out how the ones that could use the guide lines most will actually read them at least once. :-/ Another point that is equally impossible for a lot of the posters: to figure out when to use private mail and when to use a list reply. If the list in general could benefit from the discussion/post it should be a list reply, otherwise it should be a private mail only. -- Sandy List replies only please! Please address PMs to: news-reply2 (@) japantest (.) homelinux (.) com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 16 March 2009 02:57:09 pm Sandy Drobic wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience.
To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors.
What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics - no excessive quoting IMHO, sparse few words, to mark paragraph, should be enough.
What can make list friendly? - posting style with interleaved answers - or bottom posting
What else?
Take care of the main problem: figure out how the ones that could use the guide lines most will actually read them at least once. :-/
You are on the list very long ;-) The recent welcome mail looks like this. ************************************************************ Welcome! You have been subscribed to the opensuse@opensuse.org mailinglist. Please read the openSUSE mailing list netiquette before you post. http://en.opensuse.org/Opensuse_mailing_list_netiquette This netiquette is recommendation how to write messages to openSUSE mailing lists that are easy to read, reduce amount of text and number of messages, help mutual understanding and avoid flames. Thank you for paying attention to these recommendations. ************************************************************
Another point that is equally impossible for a lot of the posters: to figure out when to use private mail and when to use a list reply. If the list in general could benefit from the discussion/post it should be a list reply, otherwise it should be a private mail only.
I updated http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette with this information. Now I need native English speaker to volunteer and check the text :-) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 16 March 2009 11:34:59 pm Rajko M. wrote: ...
I updated http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette with this information. Now I need native English speaker to volunteer and check the text :-)
Thanks everybody for the suggestions and, specially, to Dave, Ken and Patrick, for the help around article. There is more work to do, which I hope would not scare you away. There is section See Also, missing all the time, that should list few related articles. I guess that configration of common email clients should be one of topics that people accessing http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette are interested in. There are some articles on the wiki, but it was log time ago that I touched any of them. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday 16 March 2009 11:34:59 pm Rajko M. wrote: ...
I updated http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette with this information. Now I need native English speaker to volunteer and check the text :-)
Thanks everybody for the suggestions and, specially, to Dave, Ken and Patrick, for the help around article.
There is more work to do, which I hope would not scare you away. There is section See Also, missing all the time, that should list few related articles.
I guess that configration of common email clients should be one of topics that people accessing http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette are interested in. There are some articles on the wiki, but it was log time ago that I touched any of them.
I suppose we can add how-tos for Thunderbird extensions "reply to list" and "quote collapse". We can also point to "mailnews.clobber_list_reply" in config as well. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 18 March 2009 02:21:59 am Dave Plater wrote:
I suppose we can add how-tos for Thunderbird extensions "reply to list" and "quote collapse". We can also point to "mailnews.clobber_list_reply" in config as well.
That is what I meant, among other more basic things: - like tutorials how to performe basic setup, that some ISPs have on their web sites. Like: http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Setting_up_KMail_to_download_your_E-Mail_messages - how to enable threading (it is substantial to understand what is threading, in order to read mail lists, Usenet, forums that can have threading, like ours) - how to create subfolders (by mail list, by author, by star constellation, or whatever else makes reading easier) - how to set default accounts to answer from for each folder (it is possible in KMail) - how to create and use filters that will automatically sort mail (what for we have computer if we can't get simple tasks done without our involvement) - list keyboard shortcuts for the most often used functions (it is far easier to hit 'l' (L) to reply to list then mouse right click and then drive pointer through 3-4" on the screen) There is number of functions in KMail that most of users don't know about. Later, someone can explain how to install and configure home IMAP server, but right now we need simple instructions like:. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
We have this http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette to improve user experience.
To goal is to make archives source of information, not garbage collectors.
What can make archives useful? - no offtopic discussions + no answers on OT topics - no excessive quoting IMHO, sparse few words, to mark paragraph, should be enough.
What can make list friendly? - posting style with interleaved answers - or bottom posting
What else?
Well, I'm in favor of OT topics on the main list, so long as they are simple, brief, and not argumentative. I agree with the previous poster who said that nobody reads the OT list. I certainly don't, and have no intention of starting to. In order to keep these off the archives, can't the system filter out files whose subject is OT before they get to the archives? I think the general system in use, i.e., bottom replies, is very good, and I have adopted it in email replies to other sources. However, there are times when interleaved answers would be very helpful, as in a list of related questions. I would not object to this. Respectfully submitted--doug
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participants (12)
-
Brian K. White -
Carlos E. R. -
D. McGarrett -
Dave Plater -
Duaine & Laura Hechler -
Jim Henderson -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Patrick Shanahan -
Philip Dowie -
Rajko M. -
Sandy Drobic -
Tony Alfrey